Ryker "Down Shifting" while engine braking

[Ddorand]

i asked this question in another thread but didnt get an answer
i have also searched the forums and didnt see this question asked already

i have read conflicting info in a ryker/spyder facebook group so i thought i would ask here.

when i let off the gas and let the bike decel using engine braking it feels like it is downshifting multiple times.
the bike will lurch forward like the belt slips then clunk into a lower "gear" within a split second. if that makes sense.
slowing down from 40 to 5 it will do it as many as 6 times or more, sometimes less.

some people say its normal, others say it isnt and to have my cvt pulleys replaced.

i have 400 miles on my ryker and it has done it since 2 miles when i got it.

thanks much

Dave

[Rob Rodriguez]

What your feeling is not downshifting or belt slipping. My 2019 does it as well so to my knowledge its normal. It only happens sometimes when I'm decelerating (typically when going down a steep incline to a stop) What I believe is happening is the drive shaft is being allowed to "jump the drive" and the noise and lurch you hear and feel (although the lurch on mine is minimal....not like it throws the bike forward 12" or anything) is this drive shaft jump. I took a look at the exploded view of the gear box for the Rykers and I noticed some parts in there that I wouldn't think would normally be in there and thought that maybe this is a mechanical feature built into the gear box. The feature allows the drive shaft to "jump" or disengage from the drive in certain situations where engine RPM, Secondary clutch RPM and wheel speed varies a certain amount. When the variance is too great the disengagement happens. All speculation on my part? For me it happens and I assume normal but it could in fact be a defect?

My Ryker gets a its 6000 mile service tomorrow at the dealer. I'll ask them.

[SportsterDoc]

My Ryker gets a its 6000 mile service tomorrow at the dealer. I'll ask them.

Interested in your follow-up. I am at 990 miles (1 month) and have not experienced this. Ride today was up to 8500 feet and lots of engine braking.

[Ddorand]

interested to hear what they say, it seems to be getting worse. my local dealer closed down the day after i got mine. new dealer isnt can am yet and they seem to be snarky and better than me lol
2 other dealers, 1 is an hour away through new orleans into kenner, the other is over an hour away in hattiesburg, MS, and there website scares me. way too pushy

thanks again

Dave

[Peter Aawen]

Bearing in mind that my Ryker experience is fairly limited, just a few demo rydes & a couple of days 'testing' that wasn't on public roads, so maybe something like 1000-1500miles..... :dontknow:

Buuut, that aside & IIRC, while the type of CVT's that Rykers run generally don't 'engine brake' well, I believe the Rykers have an extra 'engine braking' feature built into their CVT that is meant to help you slow down as you wind back on the throttle (instead of just cutting drive & then coasting, it actually retards! ) and I think it's dependent upon the ryder still holding 'some throttle' on! ;)

So if you are slowing down & just back off on the throttle part way, the engine braking feature does its thing & you'll slow down faster than you would if your Ryker didn't have it! BUT, if you back right off, closing the throttle all the way, that feature doesn't work & you take a while to coast to a stop if you don't brake/do something else... :rolleyes: However, the situation you describe can occur if you are right on the cusp of a 'fully closed throttle', or maybe just jiggling a touch of throttle in & out a bit as you move around in response to the road surface/whatever, and so you'll get what you've described. The solution, at least for me, was to always hold just a bit more throttle on.... and then it'd smoothly slow down under 'engine braking'. :ohyea:

Or maybe your 'engine braking' device is just busted/not working?! :dontknow:


Over to you! :thumbup:

[SportsterDoc]

Good theory, Peter.
Throttle position may be important to understanding this. Ddorand, pls advise further.

The Ryker CVT has enough intelligence to hold a good ratio for engine braking.
I get max engine braking with closed throttle.
Less engine braking with partial throttle.

Today, going down a grade (6%+?) from 8,000 feet down to 7,000 feet, with some curves, partial throttle lost speed without slowing too much.

[BajaRon]

If I am understanding your description accurately. I have not experienced this with my Ryker. I ride a lot in the mountains. It's smooth both going faster and slowing down. I wonder if your centrifugal clutches are sticking somehow. I don't see any reason for the 'Jumps' and 'Clunks' that you describe. The whole advantage of a CVT is the continuous, transition-less, seamless 'Shifting' ability.

[Rob Rodriguez]

Pretty sure its not the clutches. I'm pretty sure its in the gearbox. Funny thing is I hear you guys talk about engine braking. My Ryker doesn't have any really, it will free wheel when you let off the throttle for a long time. Unlike my Ski-Doo which engine brakes heavy when you let off the throttle. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

[SportsterDoc]

Rob, are you suggesting gearbox (forward/reverse gears) or CVT transmission?

[Rob Rodriguez]

I was suggesting the forward/reverse gear box.

6000 mile service complete. Talked to the dealer about the issue. Gave him an example of going down an incline (hill) completely letting off the throttle half way down and letting it coast to the stop sign using the brake to stop. While coasting you would hear/feel some clunking lurching. He said as far as he knows its normal. His wife had a 2019 Ryker 900 and now a 2020 900 demo and he said both of them do this from time to time. He said other customers have also asked about it. So, as far as he knows its normal and not causing any issues. He also said it was his guess was its clutch engagement/disengagement and better throttle control (basically keeping RPM at engagement even when slowing down or stopping) would eliminate most of it.

On another note. The dealer did say that he personally found the fuel pump whine very annoying. He has been talking with his BRP rep and BRP has some "fix" options they are working on. He actually asked if I would be interested in testing out some of the options on my bike. So, looks like BRP is working on the fuel pump whine thing.

[Tslepebull]

If I understand the operation of the CVT correctly (which may be a dangerous assumption) the primary sheave pully is freewheeling and not bearing against the belt until engine RPM reaches 1800 thus no power to the secondary sheave pully and drive shaft. When coasting down hill with the throttle closed engine RPM is below 1800 so no tension to the belt from the primary sheave. However, if rear tire rotation and shaft drive is still rotating the secondary sheave and minor throttle input takes up the belt slack (or just vibration in the belt) the power would be delivered backward to the primary sheave which would be rotating slower than the secondary. This temporary belt drag or skipping might be perceived as the downshift you are describing.

I am just speculating here and admit to my limited knowledge of a CVT systems. However, I do know that on my Rally chopping the throttle results in rapid slowing to the point that I don't need to brake until I want to stop completely.

[Rob Rodriguez]

If I understand the operation of the CVT correctly (which may be a dangerous assumption) the primary sheave pully is freewheeling and not bearing against the belt until engine RPM reaches 1800 thus no power to the secondary sheave pully and drive shaft. When coasting down hill with the throttle closed engine RPM is below 1800 so no tension to the belt from the primary sheave. However, if rear tire rotation and shaft drive is still rotating the secondary sheave and minor throttle input takes up the belt slack (or just vibration in the belt) the power would be delivered backward to the primary sheave which would be rotating slower than the secondary. This temporary belt drag or skipping might be perceived as the downshift you are describing.

I am just speculating here and admit to my limited knowledge of a CVT systems. However, I do know that on my Rally chopping the throttle results in rapid slowing to the point that I don't need to brake until I want to stop completely.

I would say you have it right on except........I don't believe there would be any power delivered back to the primary since its still rotating at the idle RPM (around 900 I think). The belt would just turn (same direction as primary) and slip on the center shaft of the primary (and/or possibly the secondary clutch as well since there is minimal force on it). There is also at least one chain in the gearbox. So, I suppose a combination of belt slippage from non clutch engagement and chain slack adds up to some drive line slack that in certain situations causes what we are talking about.

[Ddorand]

if i let go of the throttle grip mine will "engine brake" almost to a stop, i hardly need brakes, in fact if i let off too soon i have to gas it to get all the way to the stop light. only to stop completely from about 5 mph. it will freewheel for a split second between "downshifts" it almost sounds like the pulleys are resetting. i will try and go to an empty parking lot and try to get some video. its pretty reproducible as it does it 99% of the time.

i didnt have time to read everything above, but i will tonight when i get home

Dave

[SportsterDoc]

Engine RPMs do not drop below 1800 (engagement) until Ryker is almost stopped.
Select RPM mode (versus fuel stat or MTE) and watch it.
Doing a "California stop", the clutch remains engaged.

With throttle backed off, engine RPMs are relative to speed, they do not drop to idle (850) until almost stopped and clutch disengages.

[Ddorand]

i have tried many different things. holding a little throttle, no throttle, completely letting go of the grip. all do the same. downshifts. holding a little gas it does it less, but still does it.
its getting hot in louisiana and i work at an a/c supply house so i have been busy. one day i will get to make a video.


Dave

[SportsterDoc]

Coming to a slow stop, I can hear/feel clutch disengage at about 6 MPH.
Nothing other than smooth engine braking before that.

[Ddorand]

you can hear it over the wind noise. no brake applied at all and throttle fully closed.

https://youtu.be/83rBLog3GmA

2nd run is better sound of the clunks

not sure how to record with my phone and not get wind noise, open to suggestions

Dave

[Rob Rodriguez]

Yes, that's exactly what mine does.

[aregg]

Ddorand, mine does the same thing and it is pretty bad if I am going down a steep hill. I do not think it is normal. It feels as if something sticks and then let's go probably one of the pulleys is not transitioning smoothly.
I will try to record also. You get the sensation as if you are having a serious hiccups episode. :)

[aregg]

OK here is my attempt to document the issue. It really is annoying and have a hard time to accept it is the nature of the beast and it is OK.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RctAI7A1d4

[Tslepebull]

OK, after listening to both youtubes mine does not do that.

[Greven]

Mine does this as well some times, at low speeds when coming to a stop. Seems so common I dont worry about it :)
But if there is a certain drive cycle to enable the condition, I can see how it would be a little bit of an annoyance as conpared to the otherwise very smooth and seamless ride of the Rykers :D

[aregg]

My first and last Canam, it also came missing the roller bearing in the drive pulley.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSqFGjtl4go

[aregg]

I have looked and looked and can find no information on why the condition when you are going downhill with the throttle closed or occasionally just coming to a stop. May just take the CVT cover off one of these days stick a GoPro and video what exactly happens. It can not be the clutch engaging and disengaging.

[Greven]

Now that would be interesting, and a great way to really understand the phenomenon :)

[Ddorand]

alrighty, took my ryker to the dealer to have the swaybar installed. (used brp credit from panels toward part and labor)

told them about the downshifting and they didnt think it was normal. tech said maybe a weight was stuck. this was sat 8/8/2020
they called me today, they were able to replicate it and the service manger used the word harsh to describe the downshifts. he reached out to brp dealer community and the dealers that had seen this problems say bad transmission.
so my dealer has a claim in for a replacement for me. bike is 2 months old 1400 miles and it has done this from day 1

yay

Dave

[aregg]

If this turns out to be a defect it seems it effects number of bikes. I sent an email to a dealer also asking about their thoughts.

[Greven]

Thanks for sharing. Will be interesting to follow what this leads to. If it is indeed a fault, brp will have a lot of rykers to fix. Good thing I still have a year of warranty, hope to also get a fuel pump fix before warranty runs out :)

[aregg]

I am going to wait until Ddorand posts the outcome of his bike. Then if need be I will just take the CVT cover off and take a video of exactly what is happening.

One of my riding routes has a steep and long downhill and the bike does the same thing sometimes more than ten times. It is annoying and since I do not know exactly what is happening very concerning.

[Ddorand]

https://youtu.be/yQCbYSCvkzY

got a gopro. much better sound.

still waiting on brp to answer on what they want done, plus transmissions are on back order until late sept.

i will update as things start to move forward.

Dave

[aregg]

We will be going on an eight hundred mile trip shortly on the Canam and there was no way I would depart on the bike without knowing what exactly was happening and if a failure was imminent. Obviously it is not q question of any gear change being involved the Ryker has a CVT no gear changes involved.
The situation happens on over run, i.e going down hills with throttle closed and occasionally comping to an abrupt stop.
I took the CVT cover off and took a video of what is happening.
I am not an expert in CVT but the logical conclusion is that either some bikes were shipped with a faulty driven pulley spring or may even be that the specifications are out of line.
What happens is the the sheaves on the driven pulley (the larger one) open and there is a delay in the drive pulley taking up the slack of the belt so you get the jolt and the clunk as the belt gets slightly loose and then the slack is taken up. Watch the video and keep an eye on the belt on the upper pulley and see what happens when the now familiar sound is heard.
I am hoping that in our upcoming journey we will not have too many steep downhill situations requiring closed throttle decent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLu9LA15oBs

And finally no, it is not OK the bike should not behave that way.

[chris56]

I think thats normal with this kind of gearbox - if you ride downhill 2up a steep road - she brakes periodically that helps a lot for the "normal" brakes - thats so fantastic, would not change it !! Downhill she is much faster than each Spyder-Modell and most of the motorcycles ..
With the Ryker I use most time the "brake" of the gearbox - different to our old Spyder-Modells, some say the brake-pads on the Ryker can work 50.000 miles !?!
(13.000 miles here in the Alps - 80% up & downhill )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNxC9i1TaRI&t=24s

[Ddorand]

https://youtu.be/yQCbYSCvkzY

better video of the noise.

also aregg made a nice video of the pulleys acting up with the cover off.

Dave

[aregg]

The CVT does not change down gears, there is no braking system involved there is an issue that am sure Ddorand will clarify soon. Here is my final video. I cuss myself for trying to save some money and not buying a Spyder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6zYHl7PrL4

[Ddorand]

oops i posted in the wrong thread cause i got distracted at work. trying to keep everything in one thread.

copy and paste

Alright, I got an update

Brp is now acknowledging that this is an official issue now. My can am service manager called me yesterday with an update.
The brp engineers are studying the transmissions that they have changed. There is an issue with the design like you said.
They want me to wait until they figure it out as the issue isn’t guaranteed to be resolved by a trans change.
They said that the current statistic is a 50% resolution rate from swapping them. 5 of every 10 do it still.

There is no harm being done to anything on the bike by having this happen and it rides perfectly fine. So I am not worried about it just yet

Dave

[BajaRon]

It is interesting to me that people keep referring to the Ryker's 'Gear Box', when there are no gears (or box for that matter). It's all centrifugal weights, springs and variable pulleys.

I think the only damage you may be doing will be to the belt. I would say that over time, it may wear out sooner than with a correctly working CVT. But I would also think belt replacement would be part of the warranty fix, once they have one. It would be interesting to know what the 'Design Flaw' is. If it is a design flaw, and not a production or manufacturing defect. You would think all Rykers would suffer the same symptoms.

[Rob Rodriguez]

Thanks for the info.

So my 19 Rally is waiting on a fix from BRP for:
The "skipping" belt/clutch described above
Noisy fuel pump
Leaking brake reservoir cap

Fine by me as long as I can keep riding and they actually fix these issues.

[aregg]

BajaRon, without being disrespectful I think some owners do not even realize they have an issue. Specially if they do not go up and down hills.

[Ddorand]

@Baja Ron - from what brp is saying, there are a lot of rykers having this issue. they have replaced a bunch of transmissions, that is how they figured out it is an issue. the trans replacement isnt fixing the issue on half of them so no they are investigating the issue. when will your red sway bar links be back in stock? waiting for them to return so i can get a set lol

@Rob R. - fuel pump has a fix now. they are sending out the spacer for the valve. they have also confirmed what i have been fighting with people about in the FB group. a new fuel pump will not fix the whine. the pumps have not been retrofitted with the fix just yet. my parts are on the way to my dealer but we are waiting until the trans fix is found before doing anything since the only issue is noise and not performance. not a dire need to fix it.

@aregg - no hills where i live and mine does it all the time :P

@Baja Ron - pulleys are just gears with no teeth lol :P


Dave

[Rob Rodriguez]

@Rob R. - fuel pump has a fix now. they are sending out the spacer for the valve. they have also confirmed what i have been fighting with people about in the FB group. a new fuel pump will not fix the whine. the pumps have not been retrofitted with the fix just yet. my parts are on the way to my dealer but we are waiting until the trans fix is found before doing anything since the only issue is noise and not performance. not a dire need to fix it.





Correct, putting a new pump won't fix the issue. Funny thing is....there was a post on this forum a while back from someone who had the fuel pump noise issue. He just bought a replacement pump (cost like $40), pulled the BRP fuel pump assembly out of his Ryker and just replaced the pump itself (not the whole assembly which is the pump, electronic module and mounting housing). Worked fine and solved the noise issue.

[Foust]

Mine does this same thing. It feels just like if you would drop a gear in a manual and just let the clutch out. In my case it has only done it to me on a flat road, not up or down hill. My wife and I each have one, and she has not said hers has done it. She would not hesitate to do so.

Mine also engine brakes enough that I don't have to use the brakes much at all. So much so that I'm afraid someone might rear end me cause I'm not lighting up the brake lights, so I'm on the brake anyway just to let the guy behind me know I'm slowing down.

[Ddorand]

@foust - same exact here. flat ground and my ryker will slow down fast without brakes and come to a complete stop if i have the room. normally i brake to stop around 4mph

Dave

[Greven]

Just a reflection from my side. When my Ryker was brand new last autumn, I noticed this behaviour several times when engine braking to a stop at around 10-20 MPH at flat ground.
I've driven around 2000 miles this summer, and only noticed it once in the beginning of the summer. So I have a slight hope that it is just a breaking in period required.
Hopefully BRP/dealers will come back with some more info. I follow this thread with great interest :)

[Rob Rodriguez]

About 8500 miles on my Ryker and it still does this and has since day one. I'm not sure why but my opinion is........Its a secondary clutch tuning issue and my first thought is the clutch backshifting which I believe would primarily be controlled by the helix (ramp cut) and secondary by the spring. It would seem to me that the when this happens the secondary clutch is not backshifting fast enough to match the primary clutch change in RPM. This leaves the secondary clutch partially open (based on RPM) and allows the belt to "jump". When the RPM between the primary and secondary clutch match up better the belt tightens up but then the secondary RPM doesn't match the primary RPM (it keeps falling on slowing down) and the it allows the belt to "jump" again. This keeps happening until the primary clutch reaches disengagement RPM of the ROM of the 2 clutches matches up better.

I've noticed if I keep my RPM about 3500-4000 while slowing down the problem goes away. However, to do this I have to apply the brakes while twisting the throttle to keep the RPM up. Just before I need to stop I completely let off the throttle and apply the brakes harder to stop. Essentially though I have to ride the brake while applying power for this to work and I don't like that.

[Greven]

Rob, that's Interesting. Thanks for the explanation, I must admit I have poor knowledge of the actual details of how the CVT works and can be tuned :)
I might experience less of the "down shifting" now compared to when I just got the bike, simply because my driving behaviour has changed slighly over time as I've gotten used to the bike.

[Ddorand]

https://youtu.be/P6SMzv-u9C4

[aregg]

I assume no one has any further news about resolution of this annoying problem.

[BajaRon]

I assume no one has any further news about resolution of this annoying problem.

A bit odd that this has not yet been resolved. Or, maybe it has and just not reported. But it has to be something in the variable clutch assembly that is hanging up and forcing these abrupt gearing changes. I would guess that they may need to replace one or both of the clutches.

[aregg]

Has anyone else had this issue and was lucky enough to have had it corrected? I am getting extremely upset over the whole damn issue.

One dealer I talked to said it is normal and nature of the beast, which is the common bull**** excuse given.

To another I sent a video, but was confronted with "Didn't have the time to watch you need to bring it in."

Worst P.O.S. I have ever owned.

[aregg]

Final update on the CVT issue. After sending the video of what was happening to my Ryker 900 Rally to three different dealers I finally ended with Tri County Powersports. They actually bothered to watch the video and discuss the issue within the dealership. So I took it to them six weeks ago.
After almost three weeks they called me saying that they are having issues getting any feedback or decision from BRP and asked if I wanted the bike back while they waited for responses. I said no, keep it till you fix it. Finally they got a response, ordered a complete CVT transmission, replaced mine I got the back yesterday.
Today I took it to the worst areas around our home and absolutely no issues.

[Possible]

Sounds like a dealer to hang on to. Good deal.

[BajaRon]

Final update on the CVT issue. After sending the video of what was happening to my Ryker 900 Rally to three different dealers I finally ended with Tri County Powersports. They actually bothered to watch the video and discuss the issue within the dealership. So I took it to them six weeks ago.
After almost three weeks they called me saying that they are having issues getting any feedback or decision from BRP and asked if I wanted the bike back while they waited for responses. I said no, keep it till you fix it. Finally they got a response, ordered a complete CVT transmission, replaced mine I got the back yesterday.
Today I took it to the worst areas around our home and absolutely no issues.

Kudos for hanging in there and getting this done. You wouldn't take 'NO' for an answer and you didn't swallow their BS.

I am embarrassed for BRP and the dealerships which made this such a bear for you. Shame on them! But like most things in this life. If you want it done right, you have to dig in and scrap for it. You found a good dealership (awesome!). And they got it done for you. Tell them Thank You ! for all of us!

Anytime I hear the phrase; 'They all do that', it makes me cringe. I wonder how many walk away thinking this is true and living with the issue. That is very sad.

I've always said, the Spyder (and now the Ryker) set up properly are one of the finest rides you'll ever own. But if they are not right, they can be one of the worst. I hope you get many thousands of miles of smiles from your 'Fixed Right' (NO! They don't all do that) ride!