Gas line causing fires??

[Firefly]

Took the panels off my Spyder an got a good look around - didn't like what I found.

My gas line, along with other lines, were within 1/4" of the engine. The gas feed line obviously HAS rubbed and come into contact with the hot engine as there is visible damage - can feel an indent about 1/16" deep.

11,200 miles - so one has to wonder if this fuel line rubbing is happening on these Spyders that ignited.

None of the other hoses had damage - only the fuel feed line - which would be the main concern as far as I'm concerned.

I wrapped the various hoses with DEI heat shield and used zip-ties to hold them away from the engine. Also wrapped the upper radiator hose while I was doing this.

Easier to get to and check without the airbox in for sure. Been so long since I've had the airbox in - I can't tell you how easy or hard it would be to check your gas feed line - but I think this is an area of concern.

Here are some pics - before and after.

[Firefly]

This is what I did for now--- will do a better job when I have more time - but this makes me feel better when riding!

[ptoemmes]

That is one snake's nest.

Snakes
On
A
Spyder

Rubbing fuel lines is not good to say the least. Thanks for the pics.

Pete

[Firefly]

HAHA

That's MF Snakes on my MF Spyder :roflblack:

[Smylinacha]

This is what I did for now--- will do a better job when I have more time - but this makes me feel better when riding!

:thumbup: Good job with good pics! I think I wanna do that too.

[BRPjunkie]

What a design nightmare. These photos should set off alarms at BRP, especially with the fires reported so far. :(

[Tom in NM]

. . . . your pictures and labels really show the problem. Your fix looks great, too.
I will be checking mine tomorrow.

Tom

[Neez]

Your observations and precautions seem very sensible. I will be doing likewise and inspecting frequently.

[gazey]

Nice work Firefly, Ill be checking mine too.
I've got to agree with others. It looks like a "bucket of chicken guts" under all that plastic.
Its a shame BRP didn't spend that little bit of extra effort to keep it all neat and tidy :(

[fastfraser]

:2thumbs: Great post and pics. Check mine in the AM.

[Smylinacha]

What a design nightmare.

I'm no gearhead but I was thinking the same thing! Everything looks so crammed in there and Firefly did a great job of cleaning it up. We're changing my oil today so we're gonna check ours too.

[Some Guy]

Good job and nice documentation with the pics. I will definitely be checking mine as well.

Keep looking out for us all!!! :thumbup:

[tatt2r]

i would say you nailed it ...and we should all thank you thats a great fix to a bad problem:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

[tatt2r]

Scotty???? any feed back???

[Don in E Texas]

Great job, Firefly!!!

Thanks for all the photo's and detail work you did.

don

[krb1945]

well done! :thumbup::2thumbs:

Before either of mine start again I will be taking a close look at the lines you pointed out.

Super day to you my friend.

[Questions]

Took the panels off my Spyder an got a good look around - didn't like what I found.

My gas line, along with other lines, were within 1/4" of the engine. The gas feed line obviously HAS rubbed and come into contact with the hot engine as there is visible damage - can feel an indent about 1/16" deep.

11,200 miles - so one has to wonder if this fuel line rubbing is happening on these Spyders that ignited.

None of the other hoses had damage - only the fuel feed line - which would be the main concern as far as I'm concerned.

I wrapped the various hoses with DEI heat shield and used zip-ties to hold them away from the engine. Also wrapped the upper radiator hose while I was doing this.

Easier to get to and check without the airbox in for sure. Been so long since I've had the airbox in - I can't tell you how easy or hard it would be to check your gas feed line - but I think this is an area of concern.

Here are some pics - before and after.
Just wanted Thanks for the heads up.I have only about 4000ml. on my bike and it shows wear.took care of it today.Again Thanks Bagman:2thumbs:

[NancysToy]

Scotty???? any feed back???

I won't say it was a cause of fires, but it certainly seems to be a potential problem. Same goes for the deteriorated fuel lines and loose clamps others have found. I inspected all my lines a couple of weeks ago, and saw no such problem on Nancy's Spyder, but the potential still exists for every Spyder, including hers. As long as the lines don't rub and don't crack or fall apart where they pass near the engine, it would be more a problem from a vapor lock point of view. Gas vapors burn, contained liquid gas does not......at least not readily. More distance cannot hurt, though, and I would highly recommend it to all. You don't want a fuel line rubbing through!

The main thing I think we have to all get out of this is that this area needs to be carefully inspected, at frequent intervals; at least at every oil change. Easily overlooked, and not normally viewable since it requires removing all the body panels. Take the extra time to look it over closely, the dealer may not take the time to do so.

[wolfshead1]

I am shocked by the situation.Anyone can see that hazard.How much can it cost to insulate the lines and maybe rout them away from the hottest motor area.Never would any engineer group keep a job with that production practice.Do I have to buy a wing or a geezer T-glide???C-mon BRP!

[Lamonster]

I guess I'll be the only guy that is not concerned about this. Rubbing and wearing out a hose is bad and there's nothing wrong with putting a little extra protection on them but being close to a hot motor is not going to cause a fire. First off you need a open flame or spark to cause a fire, heat alone won't do it. If it did then my Boss Hoss would have burst into flames years ago. That thing got so hot that the gas would boil in the tank at times. nojoke

I think fumes and a open spark are the most likely cause of these fires that we've seen to date. The question is where are the gas fumes and open spark coming from? :dontknow:

[Firefly]

I guess I'll be the only guy that is not concerned about this. Rubbing and wearing out a hose is bad and there's nothing wrong with putting a little extra protection on them but being close to a hot motor is not going to cause a fire. First off you need a open flame or spark to cause a fire, heat alone won't do it. If it did then my Boss Hoss would have burst into flames years ago. That thing got so hot that the gas would boil in the tank at times. nojoke

I think fumes and a open spark are the most likely cause of these fires that we've seen to date. The question is where are the gas fumes and open spark coming from? :dontknow:

Sounds resonable - was just thinking *if* the hose was to rub all the way through - then gas could spray all over.

Still not sure what the ignition source would be??

So if gas was to squirt out of a hole rubbed in the gas line - what would it take to ignite it? Would gas spraying down onto hot pipes ignite?:dontknow:

I'm just thinking for these fires to burn as much as they do that fuel must be getting out somehow.:dontknow:

Guess I should have worded this thread 'possible source of fuel for fires---' ;)

I've spilled plenty of gas on tractor engines, etc. and never had it catch fire.

Didn't mean to cause any undue alarm --- just don't like hoses rubbing and eventually wearing out - especially when they carry gas.


I still think the evap canister is a likely source of the fumes.

[Lamonster]

I have a pressure washer that has the fuel tank right next to the hot exhaust. More than once have I ran out of gas and over filled the tank and it spilled over to the hot pipe.:opps: Never had a fire.

You pretty much need a spark in our case to light anything. It could be fumes from the evap can igniting but you still need a open spark to ignite those fumes. Even then the fuel air ratio has to be just right or it won't light. Ask Ron "the Fireman" how much trouble we had getting a flame thrower to work on my Valkyrie. :gaah:

[NancysToy]

I have a pressure washer that has the fuel tank right next to the hot exhaust. More than once have I ran out of gas and over filled the tank and it spilled over to the hot pipe.:opps: Never had a fire.

You pretty much need a spark in our case to light anything. It could be fumes from the evap can igniting but you still need a open spark to ignite those fumes. Even then the fuel air ratio has to be just right or it won't light. Ask Ron "the Fireman" how much trouble we had getting a flame thrower to work on my Valkyrie. :gaah:
The ignition temperature of gasoline is 495 degrees F. Gas vapors will ignite on an air-cooled engine, but it is difficult. They can ignite readily on a hot exhaust. Less likely on the surface of a water-cooled engine. Raw gas on a hot surface (above -40 degrees) will turn to vapors immediately, and can also ignite with an adequate ignition source. The warmer the surface the easier this occurs. The air-fuel ratio has to be within the flammable limits for combustion to occur. There also has to be an ignition source (above the ignition temperature). A flame is the easiest way to start a fire. A hot exhaust or similar surface works well, but not as well. It is difficult to get a spark to ignite gasoline unless one of two things occurs; either the spark must be relatively continuous, or the gas vapors must be compressed. That is the reason you have a compression ratio in an engine, the gasoline doesn't ignite well at ambient pressures with a single spark. A hotter spark, a magneto for instance, makes the job easier. In an less confined space than an engine cylinder, a repeated spark from a bad wire could theoretically ignite a fire without compression. All that being said, it is still difficult to start a fire on the right side of a Spyder, IMO. I think the factory was wise to put the evap canister and fuel lines there. Why these fires started is still a mystery, and we should not read too much into any theories. If you wish to reroute or protect your fuel lines, do so for reliability......not fire prevention.

[BRPjunkie]

What's unfortunate is that BRP has worked on this thing for ten years and owners should not have to wrap, reroute or replace fuel line components. If BRP had to pay to remedy this issue, it would be a huge labor cost as getting to these lines is not easy. I agree that spark and vapors are fire hazards and not just heat and liquid fuel, but it is just weak design to place these lines in locations where wear can occur and where they are very difficult to inspect without dismantling the bike.

[WaltH]

Spyder#2 is a 2009 SM5. The gasoline supply line from the filter forward is sheathed in the ribbed plastic conduit used for electrical wires. The conduit almost touches the engine, but it is not chaffing. Plastic conduit is also used for other gas lines. I have not yet done a thorough inspection of the radiator hoses and other issues, but I will do so.

I seem to remember that BRP had a similar problem with their snowmobiles in 2008 (gas line rubbing on engine). There were fires and a recall. I may not have my facts right here.

It seems the plastic conduit should prevent the chaffing experienced by Firefly. I will keep an eye on it just to make sure.

[Smylinacha]

We checked ours today - it wasn't rubbing or close to the engine. Guess it all depends on who's putting them together? You could have one good tech and one that's out to lunch in his head somewhere.:dontknow:

[Firefly]

I'm not sure what the cause of the snowmobile fires was - but I do know that BRP had a recall for that problem. Scotty and Lamont make very good points about needing an ignition source - as well as the gas being in a vapor form - I just wasn't happy about the fuel line getting worn from the rubbing and thought it could be a contributing factor.

I wasn't too concerned about the various hoses touching the engine until I saw the damage caused to the fuel line. I'm still not too keen on the evap canister setup - the 'overflow' hose is directed down towards the the exhaust. Dunno what kind of problems this could cause??:dontknow:

I'll defer to Scotty and Lamont on the particulars as they have much more experience on this kind of thing than I do. I just hope we can find the problem before anyone gets hurt.

Any BRP snowmobile owners out here that know what the 'fix' was for that recall??

[WaltH]

Here's the link for the Ski-Doo snowmobile fires. It looks like the exact same problem Firefly is having with his gas line rubbing on the engine. The problem with the snowmobiles may have prompted BRP to change the Spyders for the 2009 model year.

http://www.amsnow.com/sno/default.aspx?c=a&id=4022

[Firefly]

Here's the link for the Ski-Doo snowmobile fires. It looks like the exact same problem Firefly is having with his gas line rubbing on the engine. The problem with the snowmobiles may have prompted BRP to change the Spyders for the 2009 model year.

http://www.amsnow.com/sno/default.aspx?c=a&id=4022


Thanks for the info--- sure sounds exactly like what I was seeing on my Spyder.

[Smylinacha]

Here's the link for the Ski-Doo snowmobile fires. It looks like the exact same problem Firefly is having with his gas line rubbing on the engine. The problem with the snowmobiles may have prompted BRP to change the Spyders for the 2009 model year.

http://www.amsnow.com/sno/default.aspx?c=a&id=4022

Good find! Yep sounds like Firefly's problem. Wonder how many are out there with this problem?:gaah:

[demopkg]

After reading this thread, I decided to check out our Spyders. It was a pleasent surprise to find BRP has made some improvements by covering the fuel line and making it longer so it lays away from the various problem areas noted. The left side of the engine has the same improvement. These are from SpyderCrazy's SE5, I hope to check mine out before the weekend.

Thanks for your post.

[spyderinkc]

After reading this thread, I decided to check out our Spyders. It was a pleasent surprise to find BRP has made some improvements by covering the fuel line and making it longer so it lays away from the various problem areas noted. The left side of the engine has the same improvement. These are from SpyderCrazy's SE5, I hope to check mine out before the weekend.

Thanks for your post.

So you're saying these changes were made to the 2009 model Spyders???

[Firefly]

After reading this thread, I decided to check out our Spyders. It was a pleasent surprise to find BRP has made some improvements by covering the fuel line and making it longer so it lays away from the various problem areas noted. The left side of the engine has the same improvement. These are from SpyderCrazy's SE5, I hope to check mine out before the weekend.

Thanks for your post.

THANKS for posting these pics!!!

Now I'm kind of pissed that they made these changes and didn't bother to have earlier models updated. They obviously knew there was a problem---- why else would they all the sudden wrap these???

[demopkg]

Hey SpyderinKC, the pictures are from a 2008. SpyderCrazy's Red SE5 has a manufacture 'birth'date of 8/08 and my Silver SE5 has a 'birth'date of 9/08. I did check mine today and it does have the protective cover over the fuel lines.

[Firefly]

Hey SpyderinKC, the pictures are from a 2008. SpyderCrazy's Red SE5 has a manufacture 'birth'date of 8/08 and my Silver SE5 has a 'birth'date of 9/08. I did check mine today and it does have the protective cover over the fuel lines.


Mine is a 2008 PE ---- so they obviously made a change after the PE units were gone.

[Jeffsm69]

After reading this thread, I decided to check out our Spyders. It was a pleasent surprise to find BRP has made some improvements by covering the fuel line and making it longer so it lays away from the various problem areas noted. The left side of the engine has the same improvement. These are from SpyderCrazy's SE5, I hope to check mine out before the weekend.

Thanks for your post.

Just checked my 09 SE5, I see the same improvements.

[bone crusher]

how about if we all pressure BRP to retrofit all the earlier Spyders? i don't have a PE and I'm not sure which setup I have...

[Smylinacha]

Got ours in May '08 - no protective covering. Not p.e. edition either. SM5

[bjt]

Hey SpyderinKC, the pictures are from a 2008. SpyderCrazy's Red SE5 has a manufacture 'birth'date of 8/08 and my Silver SE5 has a 'birth'date of 9/08. I did check mine today and it does have the protective cover over the fuel lines.

Spyders with a manufacture date of 2008 may indeed be 2009 model Spyders. If they are anything like automobile manufacturers, their model changeover is actually in July or August of the previous year. 2009 model cars were being built back in July of 2008. July of 2009, they start building 2010 models.

[spyderinkc]

Hey SpyderinKC, the pictures are from a 2008. SpyderCrazy's Red SE5 has a manufacture 'birth'date of 8/08 and my Silver SE5 has a 'birth'date of 9/08. I did check mine today and it does have the protective cover over the fuel lines.

Thanks for the update! When I get a chance to take off my covers during my 600 mile oil change, I'll take a really close look. Just by peeking through the side with the covers on, it appears I have the plastic wrap around my lines...:2thumbs: