Headlights, keyed. Why?

[Revalden]

Why are the headlights always ON when key is on? Why do they stay on after key is turned off? What is "Load Shedding"? Is there a way to have key on and all circuits hot without the lights on? I did a "search" to no avail. Will Nanny bitch if I put a toggle in the circuit to the headlights? I want this so that I can work on circuits without having headlights draining battery while working on Spydie.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Why are the headlights always ON when key is on? Why do they stay on after key is turned off? What is "Load Shedding"? Is there a way to have key on and all circuits hot without the lights on? I did a "search" to no avail. Will Nanny bitch if I put a toggle in the circuit to the headlights? I want this so that I can work on circuits without having headlights draining battery while working on Spydie.

I have a 14 RT , and when I turn the key to ON … my headlights aren't ON until the engine actually fires ….. my tailites and fender lights will go ON when the key is turned to the first click ….. I don't know why yours should be different …. Mike :ohyea:

[h0gr1der]

Load shed is relay controlled power to stuff like lights and such. It minimizes power draw until the relay gets the run signal from the engine. This helps it to avoid the dreaded low voltage codes, which seem to be varied and many if the battery voltage falls to below 10.5 for any reason. The lights time out after a few seconds (15?) when the Spyder is shut down. From what I understand the Spyders have so many computers, some of which never really shut off, that there is a pretty significant battery drain even when the Spyder is switched off. Hence the recommendation for a good battery tender while the Spyder is parked for more than a few days.

[Revalden]

I have a 14 RT , and when I turn the key to ON … my headlights aren't ON until the engine actually fires ….. my tailites and fender lights will go ON when the key is turned to the first click ….. I don't know why yours should be different …. Mike :ohyea:

My headlights turn on as soon as the switch is turned on, which seems to lower available cranking voltage to 8.x volts as read by my Battery Moniter. It says battery voltage is around 12.3- 12.5 volts before cranking. This is with a new battery installed in Jan, 2020, running voltage is 14.5 volts +/- 0.2. So far, it has always started even in sub freezing temps. with battery maintainer connected. Maintainer is set at 2 amps. I might contact battery mfg and see what they say. Maybe have them send me their 450a battery. Thanks guys.

[RICZ]

It is a federal mandate that all motorcycles have headlights on at all times. BRP is complying with that mandate.

[Fearless]

Hi guys

We used to have headlights hard wired on motorcycles back in the 80's. That lasted a couple of years then the Govt decided it was not revelant anymore.

It seems that some manufacturers left them hard wired.

I know that in some cases headlights on actually made the bike very hard to see, like when the sun is low and behind the bike.

Any Aussies want to chip in, my information may be very rusty.

Cheers
Frank

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I would really appreciate if everyone is who able, to go out and turn your Key to the - ON position. …. Do NOT start the engine …. and report back what lights go on. ….. Thanks ,..... as I stated above - if my engine is not running my headlights are OFF ..… Mike :ohyea:

[Navydad]

I would really appreciate if everyone is who able, to go out and turn your Key to the - ON position. …. Do NOT start the engine …. and report back what lights go on. ….. Thanks ,..... as I stated above - if my engine is not running my headlights are OFF ..… Mike :ohyea:

2015 RT. Key on and headlights are off until the engine starts. They do stay on a bit after the RT is shut down.

[Oregonryder]

2019 RTL. Lights not on when key is turned to on, only running lights

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Why are the headlights always ON when key is on? Why do they stay on after key is turned off? What is "Load Shedding"? Is there a way to have key on and all circuits hot without the lights on? I did a "search" to no avail. Will Nanny bitch if I put a toggle in the circuit to the headlights? I want this so that I can work on circuits without having headlights draining battery while working on Spydie.
Did you buy the RT new or used? If used, then I'm guessing the previous owner jerry rigged the wiring so the lights do like you say. IF the lights are NOT off until the engine is started, AND do not turn OFF about 20 seconds after turning the ignition off, then something is HAYWIRE! And if your battery voltage really truly does drop to 8 volts when you hit the start button and the cluster does not blank out, then your engine computer is flakey!

[Revalden]

Did you buy the RT new or used? If used, then I'm guessing the previous owner jerry rigged the wiring so the lights do like you say. IF the lights are NOT off until the engine is started, AND do not turn OFF about 20 seconds after turning the ignition off, then something is HAYWIRE! And if your battery voltage really truly does drop to 8 volts when you hit the start button and the cluster does not blank out, then your engine computer is flakey!


I bought it used in Nov. of 2018. I played with it today and the headlights DO come on when key is turned to ON and while cranking. Hinky, not Flakey. Lights go out about 30 seconds after key off. With key on, push and hold Mode, turn key off, let go of Mode, radio stays on. I wonder if P.O. had the ECU Flashed. It has always ran GREAT, and now that I've put on the RLS Cat-Delete Resonator it Hauls My Big Ass Fast and sounds absolutely awesome. Perhaps whoever did the flash "Hinkyed" the 'puter. Is there a way to tell if it has been flashed?

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

I bought it used in Nov. of 2018. I played with it today and the headlights DO come on when key is turned to ON and while cranking. Hinky, not Flakey. Lights go out about 30 seconds after key off. With key on, push and hold Mode, turn key off, let go of Mode, radio stays on. I wonder if P.O. had the ECU Flashed. It has always ran GREAT, and now that I've put on the RLS Cat-Delete Resonator it Hauls My Big Ass Fast and sounds absolutely awesome. Perhaps whoever did the flash "Hinkyed" the 'puter. Is there a way to tell if it has been flashed?
Sounds like it may have been flashed but I don't know how to tell if it has been. As for the radio staying on that is normal. It will shut off though when the battery voltage drops below 12.

[Richardv]

I bought it used in Nov. of 2018. I played with it today and the headlights DO come on when key is turned to ON and while cranking. Hinky, not Flakey. Lights go out about 30 seconds after key off. With key on, push and hold Mode, turn key off, let go of Mode, radio stays on. I wonder if P.O. had the ECU Flashed. It has always ran GREAT, and now that I've put on the RLS Cat-Delete Resonator it Hauls My Big Ass Fast and sounds absolutely awesome. Perhaps whoever did the flash "Hinkyed" the 'puter. Is there a way to tell if it has been flashed?

Are your hi-beam on?

[JayBros]

As Mike said, when I turn on the ignition key the small LED lights that are outboard of the headlights come on but the headlights do not illuminate until the engine is running. My operator's guide says the engine has to reach 800 RPM before the headlights automatically turn on and they remain on for about 20 seconds after the engine is stopped. High beam or low beam doesn't matter on U.S. bikes because the headlights are single filament bulbs/LEDs with mechanical shutters that cover half the light for low beam.

[whitedog43]

headlights come on after engine is started, fender lights and rear lights come on with switch, they shut off after a few seconds, however by habit i just recycle switch to turn off headlights when i shut it down. 2017 rt

[Revalden]

headlights come on after engine is started, fender lights and rear lights come on with switch, they shut off after a few seconds, however by habit i just recycle switch to turn off headlights when i shut it down. 2017 rt

I'll try the Recycle Key next time I start it to see if the headlights go off, then hit start to see if it keeps voltage up. But since I've got LEDs everywhere I don't think they'd draw enough amps away from the starter. I'll do a Amp Draw test, then, If that doesn't help I'll shove the old battery back in and see what gives.

[Motorcycledave]

Why are the headlights always ON when key is on? Why do they stay on after key is turned off? What is "Load Shedding"? Is there a way to have key on and all circuits hot without the lights on? I did a "search" to no avail. Will Nanny bitch if I put a toggle in the circuit to the headlights? I want this so that I can work on circuits without having headlights draining battery while working on Spydie.

I think it is a federal law now that the lights come on and stay on for safety... check with your local DOT office, the lights on my car and my wifes car come on and stay on when the key is turned to the on position.

[SpyderConvert]

My headlights turn on as soon as the switch is turned on, which seems to lower available cranking voltage to 8.x volts as read by my Battery Moniter. It says battery voltage is around 12.3- 12.5 volts before cranking. This is with a new battery installed in Jan, 2020, running voltage is 14.5 volts +/- 0.2. So far, it has always started even in sub freezing temps. with battery maintainer connected. Maintainer is set at 2 amps. I might contact battery mfg and see what they say. Maybe have them send me their 450a battery. Thanks guys.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the instructions that came with my Battery Tender Jr. said that I should not start the vehicle with the Tender connected.

[PMK]

Key to on, headlights remain off. Engine started and running, headlights are on.

I do know the small fender lights and frunk interior lights will be on with switch on.

Never checked fog lights since I typically shut those down prior to engine shutdown.

[PMK]

I bought it used in Nov. of 2018. I played with it today and the headlights DO come on when key is turned to ON and while cranking. Hinky, not Flakey. Lights go out about 30 seconds after key off. With key on, push and hold Mode, turn key off, let go of Mode, radio stays on. I wonder if P.O. had the ECU Flashed. It has always ran GREAT, and now that I've put on the RLS Cat-Delete Resonator it Hauls My Big Ass Fast and sounds absolutely awesome. Perhaps whoever did the flash "Hinkyed" the 'puter. Is there a way to tell if it has been flashed?

At a guess, it has nothing to do with a possible reflash. More likely the lights shutdown via the main typical shutdown.

The lights incorrectly come on with the key and engine not running because of a failed relay.

[larryd]

I'm with PMK on your headlights on problem with key on...Someone with a schematic may be able to identify the controller that turns the headlights on after the bike is started and go from there...I'm thinking that controller or relay may have the contacts stuck together???? JUST A GUESS...My Spyder is flashed and the engine needs to be running for the headlights to come on...Keep us updated when you find the fix...larryd

[Fire34]

I would really appreciate if everyone is who able, to go out and turn your Key to the - ON position. …. Do NOT start the engine …. and report back what lights go on. ….. Thanks ,..... as I stated above - if my engine is not running my headlights are OFF ..… Mike :ohyea:

Just front fender lights and bothbackup and taillights, when i truned the key to the first position. 2013 RT Limited
Dave

[Beaudog]

My 2019 F3 limited does not turn on the headlights until you start the engine. My wife's 2018 RT is the same way except the small led lights next to the headlights do come on.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

At a guess, it has nothing to do with a possible reflash. More likely the lights shutdown via the main typical shutdown.

The lights incorrectly come on with the key and engine not running because of a failed relay.
If it was a stuck relay the lights would be on all the time. The power side of the headlights pass through the hi and lo headlamp relay contacts and is not keyed. The ground side of the lights is direct to ground. The power through the main headlight relay contact goes only to the power side of the coils of the hi and lo headlight relays. The ground side of the hi and lo relay coils go to the ECM. I really think the ECM is modified, either by flashing or internal failure. Why else would the lights come on with the key and turn off 20 seconds after the key is turned off? The ECM has a full time power source so it can keep the ground side of the headlight relays connected after the key is turned off.

I believe Revalden when he says the lights come on when the key is turned on and the motor has not yet been started. And as we have all said, that is not normal.

Also, there is no way he could crank the engine if in fact the battery voltage drops below 10.5 unless the ECM has been flashed, or has an internal failure.

Revalden, back to one of your original questions about the load shedding relay. That relay controls power to the hand grips and suspension compressor. The ground side of the relay coil goes to the cluster so the relay does not activate until the bike is running. The load shedding relay and headlight relays are not connected in any manner.

[SpyderCruiser]

If it was a stuck relay the lights would be on all the time. The power side of the headlights pass through the hi and lo headlamp relay contacts and is not keyed. The ground side of the lights is direct to ground. The power through the main headlight relay contact goes only to the power side of the coils of the hi and lo headlight relays. The ground side of the hi and lo relay coils go to the ECM. I really think the ECM is modified, either by flashing or internal failure. Why else would the lights come on with the key and turn off 20 seconds after the key is turned off? The ECM has a full time power source so it can keep the ground side of the headlight relays connected after the key is turned off.

I believe Revalden when he says the lights come on when the key is turned on and the motor has not yet been started. And as we have all said, that is not normal.

Also, there is no way he could crank the engine if in fact the battery voltage drops below 10.5 unless the ECM has been flashed, or has an internal failure.

Revalden, back to one of your original questions about the load shedding relay. That relay controls power to the hand grips and suspension compressor. The ground side of the relay coil goes to the cluster so the relay does not activate until the bike is running. The load shedding relay and headlight relays are not connected in any manner.

I would have to look at the schematic again, been a while. But I thought the headlights are also powered by the load shedding relay and another relay, so 2 relays for the headlights to work. So 1 could be stuck but would go off with the load shedding relay.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

I would have to look at the schematic again, been a while. But I thought the headlights are also powered by the load shedding relay and another relay, so 2 relays for the headlights to work. So 1 could be stuck but would go off with the load shedding relay.
Nope. I thought so too until I looked closely. The headlights have three relays, the main one with two outputs and its coil ground goes to the hi-low handlebar switch. Energized it directs the power to the high beam relay contact, and deenergized it directs power to the low beam relay contact. There is a jumper around to keep the low beam relay energized all the time to keep the headlight lit. This for US/Canada models only. Remember, US/Canada models have one headlight bulb only. High beam activates the shutter. The ground side of the high and low beam relays go to the ECM through which the circuit to ground is completed. The power side of all three relays is connected directly to battery power through the fuse box.

The load shedding relay has its ground side connected to the ECM through a pin different from the headlights. I haven't checked but the grip heaters and suspension compressor may shut off as soon as the ignition is turned off. That is why the suspension doesn't operate unless the engine is running.

[Revalden]

Are these relays generic (available at auto parts stores) or BuRP only! Perhaps I'll pull them and check their circuits. Is there a diagram of how they operate, normally open or normally closed.

[Revalden]

Also, there is no way he could crank the engine if in fact the battery voltage drops below 10.5 unless the ECM has been flashed, or has an internal failure.
I have a "Battery Monitor" hooked between the Positive and Negative terminals. It sends info Bluetoothily to an AP on my phone and is always running in the background. It recorded 8.37 cranking volts, and engine does start but begrudgingly. Could starter be going out? I replaced the battery that was in Spydie when I bought it because of these low readings. I think I'll remove the Battery Monitor and see if the hard starting continues. And while I'm in there I'll add those star washers everyone extolls, even though the wire to terminal joints have been TIGHT.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

I have a "Battery Monitor" hooked between the Positive and Negative terminals. It sends info Bluetoothily to an AP on my phone and is always running in the background. It recorded 8.37 cranking volts, and engine does start but begrudgingly.
I don't know of any reports of starters going out. At this point I'm skeptical of your battery monitor. Response time may also be a factor. Hook another voltmeter to the battery to check cranking voltage. Open the throttle all the way and hold it while pushing the starter button. That will allow cranking the engine without firing. It's called something like clearing a flooded engine. That will give you a good read on the voltage drop while cranking. Has your cluster screen gone wonky while you're starting? That will happen if the voltage drops below 10.5. I just can't believe your engine will crank if the voltage truly is dropping below 10.5 unless something has been changed in the ECM or cluster.

I've never replaced a relay so can't say for sure if you can get them at an auto parts store, but I'm guessing you can. Schematics of relays are usually printed on the relay itself. The high and low beam relays are normally open, i.e., have to be energized to close. The main relay is a 3-way so one set of contacts is closed when energized and the other when not. But you probably know all this so don't be insulted by the explanation. I just want to make sure you know!

The terminals should be identified and relays pretty much adhere to a standard ID scheme which you find on the 'net.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Here's another test you can try.

First, the ground side of the starter solenoid coil goes to the ECM. There's jumper circuit with a diode from the hot side to the ground side of the starter solenoid coil. When the engine starts the ECM raises the ground circuit to full voltage thus causing the solenoid coil to no longer have a voltage differential and drops out. The power side of that coil is fed through the contacts of the pre-start relay. The pre-start relay coil ground goes through the starter button to ground.

Once the engine is running pushing the starter button will actuate the pre-start relay only. The starter solenoid coil won't energize because both sides are at the same voltage. So try this. Start the engine and then push the starter button. See if you can hear the starter solenoid kick in and cause the starter to turn. If it does, then there's a problem in the ECM because that indicates the ground side of the solenoid is staying at ground, which it shouldn't.

I'm guessing that the ground circuit for the starter solenoid inside the ECM will be open when the battery voltage drops below 10.5. When I've had my battery drop down to that level the starter button produces only silence.

I'm still of the opinion you have a flashed or defective ECM, or flashed into a defective condition.

[JoshHefnerX]

You said you have LED lights all over this thing? Are they aftermarket lights? If so, I'm wondering if they were wired in, in such a way as they're feeding the headlights...

[PaladinLV]

My 2014 RT-S LEDs and fenders turn on with key. Headlights on start. Have always been that way.

AJ

[SICARIO]

I honestly would guess the headlights are on while driving for safety reasons. My 2016 Spyder F3 lights stay on for several seconds after shutdown.

[merlot]

If the ECU has been flashed then you would expect to find a company sticker on it from the flasher,no?

russ

[LifeLongRider]

I would really appreciate if everyone is who able, to go out and turn your Key to the - ON position. …. Do NOT start the engine …. and report back what lights go on. ….. Thanks ,..... as I stated above - if my engine is not running my headlights are OFF ..… Mike :ohyea:

Ditto . . my headlights come on only after the engine is started.

[KX5062]

I think it is a federal law now that the lights come on and stay on for safety... check with your local DOT office, the lights on my car and my wifes car come on and stay on when the key is turned to the on position.

I don't think this applies to motorcycles with a hazard light switch and the ability to display a hazard flash function.

On my old 2014 RT the headlights did not come on until it started and only stayed on for about 30 seconds after stopping, and the same goes for my new 2020 RTL.

[Revalden]

Hi guys, I haven't had time to go out and try your suggestions yet. I had to take "Management" to doctor for her knee surgery follow up appt. I've running up and down the stairs fetching things for her a lot, my legs are getting a workout. But I hope to get out there tomorrow b'cuz our club has a ride scheduled for this coming Saturday :2thumbs:. I'll let ya'll know what I turn up. Thanks again for all your help. Rev.

[Revalden]

Well guys, all I had to do was threaten it. Only the running lights and those little crystal lights next to the headlights come on when starting. Must've had my head up my :shocked:. Sorry

[Bike-O-Din]

2011 RT-S Lights DO come on when the key is turned to the ON position regardless of engine running. They will stay on as far as I know for the whole time the key is in the on position. Yes, there is a delay after shutdown before they turn off.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

2011 RT-S Lights DO come on when the key is turned to the ON position regardless of engine running. They will stay on as far as I know for the whole time the key is in the on position. Yes, there is a delay after shutdown before they turn off.
You sure about the headlights? The owner's manual clearly states the headlights automatically turn on when the engine reaches 800 rpm.

[Bike-O-Din]

Boy am I embarrassed. I just went out to the garage and turned on the spyder and sure enough the headlights do not come on. I guess it's just when starting in the dark garage the parking lights are bright enough that I thought they were the headlights.

Sorry for the misinformation.

Please feel free to continue the conversation while I go for a piece of humble pie.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Boy am I embarrassed. I just went out to the garage and turned on the spyder and sure enough the headlights do not come on. I guess it's just when starting in the dark garage the parking lights are bright enough that I thought they were the headlights.

Sorry for the misinformation.

Please feel free to continue the conversation while I go for a piece of humble pie.

Not a waste of conversation or effort because you learned something new about your Spyder!

[Big F]

I don't think the tender is needed to keep the battery charged... I had my 2018 RTL covered UP in storage in unheated bldg. all winter without a tender and when we had a nice riding day a week or so ago I uncovered the Spyder and it fired up right away???????? Just saying...
BIG F

[Revalden]

Just an update on battery Cranking Voltage upon starting. Last few starts the Battery Monitor App last Tuesday showed 9.96v on first start. I made 4 stops that day and last reading showed 8.97v but engine fired right up each time. So, I'm going to check your suggestions in the next few days and I'll let ya'll know what, if anything, I find.

[Steve W.]

What "battery monitor" are you using that is giving you those numbers? They are WAY too low to enable any vehicle to run. I would suggest finding a reliable voltmeter to see if your "battery monitor" is giving you correct information.

.