Why JASO MA2 in a Ryker?

[Mazo EMS2]

Not to start an oil brand debate here at all, but merely questioning why BRP specs the oil to be used in a Ryker to be the same oil as I use in our RT with a wet clutch......Why not just use a quality synthetic motor oil in the Ryker? What's the Ryker motor have in it that requires it to have the same oil as the RT? This whole oil thing leads me to believe that it's all a scam....LOL...No, I don't care what brand of oil anyone uses in anything, but the specs of required oil in the RT compared to a Ryker don't make sense to me...Someone's got some 'splainin to do. BajaRon, what say you? :gaah:

[BajaRon]

Good question. And one that has been batted around for awhile. My guess is that BRP is specifying what they have. I don't know if they sell a non-JASO rated oil. As for me. I'm going to use this when the time comes. I don't see why we can't utilize the advantages of a non-JASO rated oil. This will give us better protection at a lower price.

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[Sarge707]

No need for Jaso MA2- I am using Valvoline 5w40 MST Synthetic and have used it in my 900cc Jets skies for 4 Years. Runs Great.

[MDLNB]

I don't think anyone can say anything bad about Amsoil lubes. If I have my preference, it would be Amsoil.

[KC61]

Or you could just use the Valvoline 10w40 Full Synthetic Motorcycle Oil with the Jaso MA2 rating for $6.72 a quart at Walmart and be in complete compliance with the manufacturers specs. And have a high quality oil also in your machine and not take a chance on having a warranty claim denied. But by all means, do as you wish. I run this in the Ryker as well as my wet clutch Kawasaki Concours and I can get it locally.

[Mazo EMS2]

I changed the oil last week. I just went with Rotella T6.

[Sarge707]

Or you could just use the Valvoline 10w40 Full Synthetic Motorcycle Oil with the Jaso MA2 rating for $6.72 a quart at Walmart and be in complete compliance with the manufacturers specs. And have a high quality oil also in your machine and not take a chance on having a warranty claim denied. But by all means, do as you wish. I run this in the Ryker as well as my wet clutch Kawasaki Concours and I can get it locally.

I use that Very oil in my F3 BUT the 900cc engine does not need it or require it so I use the 5w40 MST as I feel its better for the 900cc engine- Their Both the same cost as far as that goes. I think using a Jaso MA2 oil in the Ryker is not the best alternative based on experience with the Jet ski 900cc engine.

[Zoot]

Or you could just use the Valvoline 10w40 Full Synthetic Motorcycle Oil with the Jaso MA2 rating for $6.72 a quart at Walmart and be in complete compliance with the manufacturers specs. And have a high quality oil also in your machine and not take a chance on having a warranty claim denied. <snip>

Ah yes... maintaining the requirements in case of warranty issues.... +1

[Mazo EMS2]

I use that Very oil in my F3 BUT the 900cc engine does not need it or require it so I use the 5w40 MST as I feel its better for the 900cc engine- Their Both the same cost as far as that goes. I think using a Jaso MA2 oil in the Ryker is not the best alternative based on experience with the Jet ski 900cc engine.

But the recommended oil for the Ryker is JASO MA2....the same recommended oil as the RT.

[Sarge707]

But the recommended oil for the Ryker is JASO MA2....the same recommended oil as the RT.

Show me that in writing in the Ryker manual???

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Show me that in writing in the Ryker manual???

Good question! A search of the 2019 Ryker Operators Guide turns up zero (0) instances of the term JASO!

[BajaRon]

But the recommended oil for the Ryker is JASO MA2....the same recommended oil as the RT.

Find a BRP lubricant that is NOT JASO rated. That is why BRP recommends an oil that IS JASO rated. Not because you need the wet clutch modifiers. And not based on the best possible lubricant for the Ryker. They only have JASO rated oils. So they recommend what they have.

But you can do better for less. And that is what people are talking about.

A JASO rated oil is not only more expensive. But it isn't necessarily the best lubricant for an engine that does not need the wet clutch modifiers. When you do not have a wet clutch. You can take advantage of much slippery oil. Bad for a wet clutch, great for the insides of a motor.

[CopperSpyder]

Find a BRP lubricant that is NOT JASO rated. That is why BRP recommends an oil that IS JASO rated. Not because you need the wet clutch modifiers. And not based on the best possible lubricant for the Ryker. They only have JASO rated oils. So they recommend what they have.

But you can do better for less. And that is what people are talking about.

A JASO rated oil is not only more expensive. But it isn't necessarily the best lubricant for an engine that does not need the wet clutch modifiers. When you do not have a wet clutch. You can take advantage of much slippery oil. Bad for a wet clutch, great for the insides of a motor.

Lets play fair JASO is not just wet clutch oil "click: https://www.oilspecifications.org/jaso.php Many types of JASO. BRP sells many types of oil including the JASO MA2.

[BajaRon]

Lets play fair JASO is not just wet clutch oil "click: https://www.oilspecifications.org/jaso.php Many types of JASO. BRP sells many types of oil including the JASO MA2.

True, JASO rated oils are not JUST wet clutch oils. JASO MB rated oils do have friction modifiers. I am not aware of a BRP MB rated oil. But there may be.

However, JASO MA rated lubricants are PRIMARILY designed around wet clutch applications. I am not saying that a JASO rated oil is not going to work well in a non-wet clutch machine. Obviously, they work just fine. My point is that not only is the JASO MA rating not necessary with the Ryker. But you may be paying for something that is not necessary. And that a less expensive oil (Apples to Apples) might be a better choice. It costs more to make a JASO MA rated oil with features that the Ryker does not need. While at the same time, not including features, like friction modifiers, that will benefit the Ryker.

It is interesting that, within the document you reference, there is this statement.
"Modern passenger car engine oils contain more and more friction modifiers. While this is a good thing for those segments (reduces wear and fuel consumption) it's bad for motorcycles. At least for those motorcycles which use engine oil to lubricate their transmission and wet clutch. Most four-stroke motorcycles with wet clutches need a JASO MA oil. JASO MA Rated Lubricants = Japanese standard for special oil which can be used in 4-stroke motorcycle engine with one oil system for engine, gearbox and wet clutch system. Fluid is non-friction modified." (Highlighting of pertinent sections done by me).

So, in other words. JASO MA rated oils have a higher friction ratio than comparable Friction Modified oils. A friction modified oil will provide LESS FRICTION than a JASO MA rated oil. Less friction means less wear and better fuel mileage. How much is another discussion.

I'm not saying that you should not use the recommended JASO MA rated BRP product. By all means! If that's what you choose to do, I fully support that decision. It's your ride! Just discussing options here.

Based on the information I have. I am going to go with a friction modified, fully synthetic Amsoil specifically designed and optimized for engine only applications. Not only is it less expensive than a comparable JASO MA rated oil. I believe, based on the facts, that it will be a superior lubricant for the Ryker.

[Geo333]

Thank you, all. Good debate, with lot's of info.

[a99miata]

oil...oil ....oil... what does the owners manual say? does the oil you use match or exceed the oil said in the owners manual? then no problem.....................

[Mazo EMS2]

oil...oil ....oil... what does the owners manual say? does the oil you use match or exceed the oil said in the owners manual? then no problem.....................

You kinda missed the point to the thread...but that's ok.

[BajaRon]

You kinda missed the point to the thread...but that's ok.

It is quite common these days. People want simplicity. Thinking outside the box has become a lost art I fear. I understand the need for simplicity. But, to me, it gets boring after awhile.

No one is saying that using the recommended JASO rated oil is a 'Problem'. Only that logic would dictate that there are better, and at the same time, less expensive options out there. Seems like a worthwhile discussion to me.

Another thought. If the owner's manual were perfect.... there would never be any revisions....

[michaelfrmtx]

my main question is why the semi synthetic and not full synthetic oil.ive run it in every Toyota I've had for 20+ years.the Rotax engines are super reliable.just a question no need for debate.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

my main question is why the semi synthetic and not full synthetic oil.ive run it in every Toyota I've had for 20+ years.the Rotax engines are super reliable.just a question no need for debate.
One thing we don't get from BRP are answers to the question, "Why do/did the engineers decide to do such and such?" Good question about oil, but we don't ever expect to get a definitive answer. Rotax has a long history of building reliable engines for all sorts of applications, including aircraft, so they must know what they're doing!

[Marr]

I was talking to a friend that’s a Harley mechanic, he was saying that most harleys have engine oil, and transmission oil separate. For their wet clutch they recommend a less slippery oil, and for their engine they recommend a less slippery oil. The reason for the engine, is they have roller bearings, and a molly oil or something like that, is good, but they found that sometimes it was too slick, and the roller. Earring would slide instead of roll, causing them to start having flat spots on them. I wonder if BRP engines have roller bearing too.

[BajaRon]

I was talking to a friend that’s a Harley mechanic, he was saying that most harleys have engine oil, and transmission oil separate. For their wet clutch they recommend a less slippery oil, and for their engine they recommend a less slippery oil. The reason for the engine, is they have roller bearings, and a molly oil or something like that, is good, but they found that sometimes it was too slick, and the roller. Earring would slide instead of roll, causing them to start having flat spots on them. I wonder if BRP engines have roller bearing too.

This does not sound right to me. Roller bearings have been used in automotive engines since the 1920's. Friction modifiers in engine oils since 1915. Molybdenum (Moly) has been used in motor oils since 1935. And our modern day friction modifier packages begin in 1970. JASO rated oils did not come out until 1998. So, with this time line, I don't see how the statement from this Harley mechanic fits.

[SportsterDoc]

Synthetic oils began to be marketed in the early 90s. I do not know why BRP designates 4T oil for the Ryker (original topic), but I can address Harley's history:
As synthetic oils became more popular and motorcyclists started using them, Harley-Davidson dealers would admonish motorcyclists to not use synthetic oils, citing concerns about "bearing skate". The fallacy of that alleged concern is that if the lubricant is so slick that the bearing can't turn, how is it going to flat spot?

However, that concern went away the moment Harley-Davidson introduced their Syn 3, alongside their dino oil HD 360.

H-D does not make it easy finding a spec sheet for their oils. I would not be surprised if it is a 4T oil even though the engine and transmission are separate for both the big twins and Sportsters.

Castrol Power 1 V-Twin oil is a 4T oil.

The original question has still not been answered.

[BajaRon]

Though synthetic compounds had been experimented with and produced in laboratories in small amounts much earlier. Fully synthetic oil was developed and used on a much larger scale by Germany in WWII. Both Mobil 1 and Amsoil marketed fully synthetic engine oils in the early 70's. Wide spread negative rumors hindered acceptance for some time. These rumors persist even today. However, full synthetic oils are pretty much universally accepted now.

[SportsterDoc]

I should have stated widely marketed or beginning to be widely accepted.
http://www.oil4kids.com/syn-hist.htm

[BajaRon]

I should have stated widely marketed or beginning to be widely accepted.
http://www.oil4kids.com/syn-hist.htm

Not a problem. And does not detract from the main theme of whether or not a JASO rated oil is necessary, or even the best way to go, for the Ryker.

I put in a question with the 'Experts' at Amsoil on this subject. They used to give me good information. But these days, what I usually get is just CYA boilerplate like, 'Use what the manufacturer recommends'. OK. I get it. That's the safe way to go. But it doesn't really address the question.

It reminds me of when the Spyder first came out. I replaced the copper core spark plugs with NGK's Iridium IX plugs. It really made a noticeable difference in throttle response, quicker starts and a bit better fuel economy. I said so on this forum and I got the usual flack from some saying that I was not using the recommended spark plug. And I fully understand where these people were coming from.

Then, BRP put out a bulletin saying that the Iridium IX plugs should not be used and were not recommended. But by then, there were enough riders who had installed them that a fair amount of support for the upgrade was expressed.

After all of the push-back by BRP, 2 years later the Spyder started coming out with, you guessed it, Laser Welded Iridium spark plugs from the factory. How about that....

I am not saying the same is true for a friction modified engine oil. But I have yet to hear a logical or mechanical reason for not using what appears to be a better, and less expensive, lubricant in my Ryker. (Not withstanding BRP's recommendation).

But BRP also recommends Kenda tires.

[SportsterDoc]

The only circumstance that I can think of where a upgraded spark plug may have been an issue would be the original Platinum spark plugs on a wasted or dual spark ignition system. This was mitigated when Platinum spark plugs were then made available as double Platinum , as explained in this link:
https://ngksparkplugs.com/en/resources/waste-spark-ignitions

[BajaRon]

The only circumstance that I can think of where a upgraded spark plug may have been an issue would be the original Platinum spark plugs on a wasted or dual spark ignition system. This was mitigated when Platinum spark plugs were then made available as double Platinum , as explained in this link:
https://ngksparkplugs.com/en/resources/waste-spark-ignitions

A little of subject. But still interesting. The real issue, and eventual reason for the waste fire systems demise, is that energy always takes the path of least resistance. The exhaust cylinder presented a much easier pathway for the spark to travel than did the cylinder under compression. So, more spark energy was spent on the 'Waste' cylinder. This is why performance tended to deteriorate relatively quickly on waste fire applications. I know my Honda 750 was this way. One of the best upgrades to that motor was to convert it to a dedicated coil for each cylinder. You would still have 2 coils firing at the same time. 1 to waste and the other to compression. But at least each spark plug was getting 100% ignition spark every time.

Those were the days! I remember many saying that a 750 cc motorcycle was ridiculously large. No one needed an engine that big!

Now I own a Suzuki M109R (1800 cc). And it's becoming a middle of the road size what with the Rocket and other larger displacement engines out there. And we're not even discussing the Boss Hoss!

[Tslepebull]

A little of subject. But still interesting. The real issue, and eventual reason for the waste fire systems demise is that energy always takes the path of least resistance. The exhaust cylinder presented a much easier pathway for the spark to travel than did the cylinder under compression. So, more spark energy was spent on the 'Waste' cylinder. This is why performance tended to deteriorate relatively quickly on waste fire applications. I know my Honda 750 was this way. One of the best upgrades to that motor was to convert it to a dedicated coil for each cylinder. You would still have 2 coils firing at the same time. 1 to waste and the other to compression. But at least each spark plug was getting 100% ignition spark every time.

Those were the days! I remember many saying that a 750 cc motorcycle was ridiculously large. No one needed an engine that big!

Now I own a Suzuki M109R (1800 cc). And it's becoming a middle of the road size what with the Rocket and other larger displacement engines out there. And we're not even discussing the Boss Hoss!

My first truck was a Ford Courier (Mazda) with an 1800 cc motor. It lacked the performance of your Suzuki

[BajaRon]

My first truck was a Ford Courier (Mazda) with an 1800 cc motor. It lacked the performance of your Suzuki

My Suzuki is a BEAST!

[Tslepebull]

My Suzuki is a BEAST!

It should be with the equivalent displacement of TWO Ace 900's!