Sonic Tension Question.

[h0gr1der]

All,

Just got my machine (2018 RTL) out of warranty limbo, checked it over before riding home and wouldn't you know it, the belt is too tight and vibrating. Even with the dampener on the belt.

Looking through the paperwork on the 3000 mile service, the tech acknowledged everything I asked them to do. I run the axle torque at 25% less due to lubricant on the threads, don't fold my split pin over, just slightly spread it, etc.

In reporting the belt request, I had asked them to skip the belt unless they couldn't. Paperwork said belt far outside of spec, set to minimum spec as per customer. They then reported the spec as 950 Hz.

For those of you that use sonic testers, is this a typo? Did they mean 950 Newtons? I saw ± 200 Lbs on the Krikit II, and 950 Newtons is 213.5 Lbs. converted.

I suspect 950 Hz would be somewhat high.

[Jeriatric]

Gates Sonic belt testing app......Iphone - Try it out?


It's my understanding the phone app is most accurate when the phone is placed on the floor(no hand shake)while testing.

[h0gr1der]

Mr. Jeriatric,
Unfortunately I'm in the Android clan.:(

[Jeriatric]

Mr. Jeriatric,
Unfortunately I'm in the Android clan.:(

Oh well. Since I've only read briefly on its use by motorcycle owners I'm not gonna be much help. They say, there are several sonic apps available? fwiw

[h0gr1der]

I'm not sure but I believe the Spyder manual references a Gates sonic meter P.N. 529 036 115.

What I'm looking for is someone who has used the OEM sonic tester to tell me if it reports back in Hz, which necessarily would have some kind of conversion to Newtons or Lbs of force.

I measured about 200 Lbs of force with the wheel on the ground at the dealership before I rode it home, and it vibrated pretty badly. From my past settings, that should be around 170 lbs in the air. Just wondering of someone can supply a correlation between 950 Hz (wondering if this is a typo) and the 200 lbs force with the wheel on the ground.

I'll measure the wheel off the ground force when I go to reset the tension to my normal range (150-160 Lb. on the ground for me).

[Jeriatric]

I'm not sure but I believe the Spyder manual references a Gates sonic meter P.N. 529 036 115.

What I'm looking for is someone who has used the OEM sonic tester to tell me if it reports back in Hz, which necessarily would have some kind of conversion to Newtons or Lbs of force.

I measured about 200 Lbs of force with the wheel on the ground at the dealership before I rode it home, and it vibrated pretty badly. From my past settings, that should be around 170 lbs in the air. Just wondering of someone can supply a correlation between 950 Hz (wondering if this is a typo) and the 200 lbs force with the wheel on the ground.

I'll measure the wheel off the ground force when I go to reset the tension to my normal range (150-160 Lb. on the ground for me).

1,000 hertz in pound-force = 224.8 lbs of force

950 hertz in pound force = 213.5 lbs of force

900 hertz in pound force = 202.02 lbs of force

https://converterin.com/frequency/hertz-to-pound-force.html

[Spyderlass]

1,000 hertz in pound-force = 224.8 lbs of force

950 hertz in pound force = 213.5 lbs of force

900 hertz in pound force = 202.02 lbs of force


That doesn't make any sense, the frequency will depend on the length of the vibrating member. For a given tension, half the length will be twice the frequency.

My belt is approximately 110hz on the ground. I reckon that's possibly on the tight side.

[Jeriatric]

That doesn't make any sense, the frequency will depend on the length of the vibrating member.

My belt is approximately 110hz on the ground. I reckon that's possibly on the tight side.

I was attempting to convert the 950 number you said the dealer had written down. Along with your 200 lb guesstimate when you measured it at the dealers.

Wish it would have been worth the effort........obviously it was not. Sorry bout that:)

[Spyderlass]

I was attempting to convert the 950 number you said the dealer had written down. Along with your 200 lb guesstimate when you measured it at the dealers.

Wish it would have been worth the effort........obviously it was not. Sorry bout that:)

Hehe, no problem, it wasn't me who asked!

[Jeriatric]

Hehe, no problem, it wasn't me who asked!

Ha! No matter:D

[trikermutha]

PARTS AT ROOM TEMPERATURE AND REAR OF VEHICLE LIFTED) 1050 N ± 150 N If the tension of drive belt is out of specification. I think its a bit less with the bulletin that was posted awhile back.

And set your meter to

MASS WIDTH SPAN
008.0 g/m 28.0 mm/R 0980 mm

Now for hertz to newton is above my pay grade but if I get a chance soon I could test it with my meter just to see what it comes out too.

[h0gr1der]

I was attempting to convert the 950 number you said the dealer had written down. Along with your 200 lb guesstimate when you measured it at the dealers.

Wish it would have been worth the effort........obviously it was not. Sorry bout that:)

Mr. Jeriatric,

Wasn't me that twisted your tail! I was just asking a question because at this particular time I am ignorant. Soon, I will not be. Many folks have a hard time wearing that cape, but I'm not afraid to ask the ignorant question, especially if I don't know.

I appreciate everyone who contributes to my conversations, even those on a tangent. It moves the conversation forward and also fosters camaraderie.

[h0gr1der]

PARTS AT ROOM TEMPERATURE AND REAR OF VEHICLE LIFTED) 1050 N ± 150 N If the tension of drive belt is out of specification. I think its a bit less with the bulletin that was posted awhile back.

And set your meter to

MASS WIDTH SPAN
008.0 g/m 28.0 mm/R 0980 mm

Now for hertz to newton is above my pay grade but if I get a chance soon I could test it with my meter just to see what it comes out too.

Mr. tirkermutha,

That's what has me confused. The 950 is close to the lower recommended tension (±50 N), so I was just wondering. Another thing that is hilarious is that in both my 2018 and 2019 RTL service manuals, in the drive section they spec the 1050N ±150N, but in the back under Technical Specifications-Vehicle, page 4 under Drive Belt, it lists 775N ±150N, yet they never, ever seem to acknowledge this lower tension. even to the detriment of their customers.

174493

[Spyderlass]

....They then reported the spec as 950 Hz....Given that mine is about 110Hz and I think it's a little tight, could they possibly mean 95Hz?

[trikermutha]

Mr. tirkermutha,

That's what has me confused. The 950 is close to the lower recommended tension (±50 N), so I was just wondering. Another thing that is hilarious is that in both my 2018 and 2019 RTL service manuals, in the drive section they spec the 1050N ±150N, but in the back under Technical Specifications-Vehicle, page 4 under Drive Belt, it lists 775N ±150N, yet they never, ever seem to acknowledge this lower tension. even to the detriment of their customers.

174493

I know they revised the tension and seems they posted the original and revised in your manual. But you mentioned Hz versus N.

So what is 950 HZ in "N"

And as posted above it sounds a bit High post #6 versus the IBF you posted 174IBF but is acceptable

[h0gr1der]

Given that mine is about 110Hz and I think it's a little tight, could they possibly mean 95Hz?

Ms Spyderlass,

I haven't a clue how the sonic tester works as I've never seen one. I don't have any idea as to whether it reports hertz only, or does the force conversion. Not sure of the belt frequency either, saw a video that Mr. Jeriatric provided for the Gates app that showed frequencies of 35-75 Hz for tensions from 28-53 Lbs, but don't know how that correlates to the long RTL belt.

[EdMat]

Here is a link to the manual for the meter. Looks like you have to input several things about what you are measuring.

https://assets.gates.com/content/dam/gates/home/resources/resource-library/operating-manuals/SonicTensionMeter_Manual_Mar2018_HIRES_NOBLEED.pdf

[Jeriatric]

Mr. Jeriatric,

Wasn't me that twisted your tail! I was just asking a question because at this particular time I am ignorant. Soon, I will not be. Many folks have a hard time wearing that cape, but I'm not afraid to ask the ignorant question, especially if I don't know.

I appreciate everyone who contributes to my conversations, even those on a tangent. It moves the conversation forward and also fosters camaraderie.

I'm laughing. I don't think anyone twisted my tail. There's a line under Jeriatric that says - thinks out loud - because I do. Trial by fire is a good teacher.

[germanspyderrider]

The Sonic must be feeded with data from the vehicle/belt.

After that you can choose what kind of report you will see on the display - either HZ or N..

I need 1050 N belt tension and this is about 33HZ - i am driving an spyder STS SE5, My2014.

Greatings from germany

[h0gr1der]

Ok, I'm kinda dense, but I finally pick up on not too subtle clues. Ms Spyderlass and Mr. Germanspyderrider have both indicated that the 950 Hz the tech put on my service report is an unreasonable number (110 Hz on whatever Ms Spyderlass is testing, and 33 Hz on an STS), then I must conclude that the 950 number referenced has to be in Newtons, and is a Typo.

I had asked my dealership to put the belt at minimum specs, and the 950 Newtons is way above the 625 Newtons minimum listed in the book. (775N ±150N=625N).

If all this is true, then I have a basis to write their service department a logical complaint, which may make them learn something, which may make the next poor bastard that has to deal with their BS a more satisfied customer. We only get better through learning.

[Cruzr Joe]

Regarding the Warranty????? All Spyders come with a minimum of 2 years (from date of purchase) unlimited mileage, yours can not be out of warranty yet if it is a 2018.

Cruzr Joe

[h0gr1der]

Regarding the Warranty????? All Spyders come with a minimum of 2 years (from date of purchase) unlimited mileage, yours can not be out of warranty yet if it is a 2018.

Cruzr Joe

Mr. Cruzr Joe,
Possibly the wrong thread? I learning about sonic testing the belt tension here.

[Cruzr Joe]

Mr. Cruzr Joe,
Possibly the wrong thread? I learning about sonic testing the belt tension here.

Sorry first line said out of warranty limbo and i guess i misunderstood what you meant.

Cruzr Joe

[Spyderlass]

Ms Spyderlass has an RTL.
You can test the frequency of belt vibration easily enough if you have an Android device. Go to the Google play store and download an app for tuning an instrument, I use one called... Wait for it... Instrument tuner. I then use the guitar tuner function to listen to my belt and it gives a reading of the frequency in Hz when I pluck the belt. Surroundings need to be quiet because the belt isn't loud. If you have difficulty getting your device to hear the belt, pluck it and sing the frequency you are hearing and your device should hear that - Bob's yer uncle, it works for me!

Yeh, sing to your bike. :p

[BoilerAnimal]

You've obviously never heard me sing! You're lucky. If I sang to my Spyder, it would leave the garage for parts unknown by itself!!!:joke:

[h0gr1der]

Ms Spyderlass has an RTL.
You can test the frequency of belt vibration easily enough if you have an Android device. Go to the Google play store and download an app for tuning an instrument, I use one called... Wait for it... Instrument tuner. I then use the guitar tuner function to listen to my belt and it gives a reading of the frequency in Hz when I pluck the belt. Surroundings need to be quiet because the belt isn't loud. If you have difficulty getting your device to hear the belt, pluck it and sing the frequency you are hearing and your device should hear that - Bob's yer uncle, it works for me!

Yeh, sing to your bike. :p

Ms Spyderlass,
I'm with Boileranimal. I reckon the 3 parameters that have to be input into the Gates unit is so that it can make the frequency to force conversion. I fear that if I tried to croak a tune I may irreparably scar the cylinders or cause the bearings to seize. Yes, it's that bad. But I do sound good drunk in the shower!

So I'm guessing the 950 Hz was supposed to read 950 Newtons, which is still way above the TSB from 2015 and the new specs in the service manual specifications section. Why do dealers continue to do this?

[h0gr1der]

Sorry first line said out of warranty limbo and i guess i misunderstood what you meant.

Cruzr Joe

Mr. Cruzr Joe,

My bad, I missed a word. Should have read warranty repair limbo. Please accept my apology for not being as concise as normal. The good thing is at all times I know what I mean, even if the rest of the world isn't in sync!:helpsmilie:

[Cruzr Joe]

Mr. Cruzr Joe,

My bad, I missed a word. Should have read warranty repair limbo. Please accept my apology for not being as concise as normal. The good thing is at all times I know what I mean, even if the rest of the world isn't in sync!:helpsmilie:

LOL I meant what you knew.

Cruzr Joe

[h0gr1der]

All,Many thanks to Mr EdMat for posting the link to the Gates Sonic Tester. Looks like we should be setting our belts in the 28-30 hz range.

https://assets.gates.com/content/dam/gates/home/resources/resource-library/operating-manuals/SonicTensionMeter_Manual_Mar2018_HIRES_NOBLEED.pdf

In that manual I found the formula to convert Hz to Newtons. I built a spreadsheet, but can't post it here, so I'll improvise.

Please verify my math, I'm can be a dumb-ass with math!

Formula: T = 4 x M x W x S2 x f 2 x 10-9
Where:
T = Belt span tension (Newtons)
M* = Belt mass constant (g/m)
W = Belt width (mm) or number of belt strands
S = Length of the span to be measured (mm)
f = Natural frequency of the belt (Hz)


The below is hacked from my spreadsheet, and uses Frequency to solve for tension;
The first 3 constants are from the service manual on setting tension with the sonic meter. My RTL has a 353mm sprocket.
Mass g/m 8.4
Width mm/R 28
Span mm 980 960400 (Span squared)
Frequency 28 784 (Frequency Squared)

Tension N 708.4 (Formula =4 x 8.4 x 28 x 960400 x 784 x 0.000000001)
Tension Lb 159.2 (Formula =Newtons*0.2248089)

[Jeriatric]

Found this and thought you would like to see it.


https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?69093-Belt-tension-APP-for-Iphone-Ipad-and-Ipod-touch

[h0gr1der]

Found this and thought you would like to see it.


https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?69093-Belt-tension-APP-for-Iphone-Ipad-and-Ipod-touch

Mr Jeriatric,

You're the man! My search MoJo must be lacking, that is exactly what I was looking for. The tech left my belt "at the lower end" at 950 Hz! Good lord, that thing must be tight!

I spent all day yesterday going over the bike, lowering the tension back to a reasonable number and aligning the wheel. The tech is working with outdated manuals or information, his specs for lowest at 200 lbs (what I found it at) is the old 1050N one. Vibrated like crazy. I figured with the formula provided by Mr EdMat that for the true lower end of around 160 lbs we'd be in the 28 Hz range, so the tech writing 950 Hz must be a typo of 950N.

[Jeriatric]

Mr Jeriatric,

You're the man! My search MoJo must be lacking, that is exactly what I was looking for. The tech left my belt "at the lower end" at 950 Hz! Good lord, that thing must be tight!

I spent all day yesterday going over the bike, lowering the tension back to a reasonable number and aligning the wheel. The tech is working with outdated manuals or information, his specs for lowest at 200 lbs (what I found it at) is the old 1050N one. Vibrated like crazy. I figured with the formula provided by Mr EdMat that for the true lower end of around 160 lbs we'd be in the 28 Hz range, so the tech writing 950 Hz must be a typo of 950N.

All credit goes to Doc Riverside & Roger. I just got lucky and stumbled across their work.

[PinkRosePetal]

...I spent all day yesterday going over the bike, lowering the tension back to a reasonable number and aligning the wheel. .....(what I found it at) is the old 1050N one. Vibrated like crazy..... we'd be in the 28 Hz...Howdya like to report back re. the vibration at that low belt frequency?

[h0gr1der]

Howdya like to report back re. the vibration at that low belt frequency?

I spent yesterday adjusting the belt and pulling the plastic off looking for broke tabs after the service. I set the belt tension at about 150 on the ground with a Krikit II. Just put about 50 miles of interstate at various speeds, amazingly, no vibration.

The whole question stemmed from the service department over tightening my belt to the old spec, and then reporting that they left it at 950 Hz. I had to understand the Hz/Force correlation before I can provide them constructive criticism. 950 Hz would be 815449 Newtons. If they typo'd and meant 950 Newtons, that's still way above the new spec.

[PinkRosePetal]

I spent yesterday adjusting the belt .....50 miles of interstate at various speeds, amazingly, no vibration. Ta. :thumbup:

[greybeard]

when the tec changed my front belt pulley I asked him to not make it so tight. He doesn't know anything about a cricket, but said the sonic reading was supposed to be 700 plus or minus. He told me he set it at 400, when I checked with the cricket it was 210 lbs. 2000 miles ago he put a new rear tire on and left the belt tight as a banjo string. Was this the reason the front pulley destroyed itself?

[h0gr1der]

when the tec changed my front belt pulley I asked him to not make it so tight. He doesn't know anything about a cricket, but said the sonic reading was supposed to be 700 plus or minus. He told me he set it at 400, when I checked with the cricket it was 210 lbs. 2000 miles ago he put a new rear tire on and left the belt tight as a banjo string. Was this the reason the front pulley destroyed itself?

I'm not sure. I've been in communication with someone who uses a sonic tester, and his is set to return Newtons. 700 Newtons is around 157 Lbs of Krikit force, and if taken with wheel off the ground (as the dealerships do) may very well result in tensions close to 180-200 lbs. 400 Newtons is 89 Lbs, and is likely to result in about 120-130 Lbs with the wheel on the ground.

After all the experimentation I've done regarding belt vibrations, I'm firmly in the less is better camp, as long as it doesn't cause the belt to ride up and damage the teeth. I know I've read the F3 models have more pulley failures, the RT's less so. F3's run less tension than RT's, but also have shorter belts. Can't say one way or the other. Could be riding style, F3's are sportier, RT's are cruisers. May be riding style.

[trikermutha]

OK..what is the new pec for the 1330 RT for tension on the belt? I see all kinds of numbers on this thread not sure what the real newton number is suppose to be :gaah:

I know there was a bulletin posted awhile back.

[Jeriatric]

OK..what is the new pec for the 1330 RT for tension on the belt? I see all kinds of numbers on this thread not sure what the real newton number is suppose to be :gaah:

I know there was a bulletin posted awhile back.


DELETED: Outdated Info

[trikermutha]

https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?69093-Belt-tension-APP-for-Iphone-Ipad-and-Ipod-touch

https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?78307-Gates-91132-Krikit-II-Drive-Belt-Tension-Gauge&highlight=belt+tension post #10

That is showing the original recommended spec, needed the new recommneded bulletin tension spec . This would be for the 2014 Models on up. (1050N plus or minus is the book spec. )

[Jeriatric]

That is showing the original recommended spec, needed the new recommneded bulletin tension spec . This would be for the 2014 Models on up. (1050N plus or minus is the book spec. )

Thanks! :thumbup:

It's an ever changing world. Time to update my notes.

[h0gr1der]

That is showing the original recommended spec, needed the new recommneded bulletin tension spec . This would be for the 2014 Models on up. (1050N plus or minus is the book spec. )

Trikermutha,

My service manuals (2018 & 2019 RT) are both broken up into 2 sections. In the front under the drive section it has the old 1050 N ±150 spec. Apparently this is the one the dealers use.

Farther in the back under the Technical Specifications- Vehicle section, the drive section lists a lower specification of 775N ± 150N. That puts my minimum tension at 141 Lbs by the new manuals. If you reference the old 2015 TSB you can go all the way down to 119 Lbs. I'm at 150 lbs on the ground, and quite happy with that.

This is from my 2019 manual;
174602

[trikermutha]

Thanks! :thumbup:

It's an ever changing world. Time to update my notes.

No Problem I know I saved it someplace myself but can not find it..

[trikermutha]

Trikermutha,

My service manuals (2018 & 2019 RT) are both broken up into 2 sections. In the front under the drive section it has the old 1050 N ±150 spec. Apparently this is the one the dealers use.

Farther in the back under the Technical Specifications- Vehicle section, the drive section lists a lower specification of 775N ± 150N. That puts my minimum tension at 141 Lbs by the new manuals. If you reference the old 2015 TSB you can go all the way down to 119 Lbs. I'm at 150 lbs on the ground, and quite happy with that.

This is from my 2019 manual;
174602

THanks

I know I set mine around the 850N range, now I know it can be lower than that if needed. Also once on the ground that doubles your original numbers :yikes: Tested mine while off the ground and on the ground.

[h0gr1der]

THanks

I know I set mine around the 850N range, now I know it can be lower than that if needed. Also once on the ground that doubles your original numbers :yikes: Tested mine while off the ground and on the ground.

Mr. Trikermutha,

Mine didn't anywhere near double, but I only measured at the low end of the scale. I set mine at 110 in the air, with the wheel off the ground and belt dampener off the belt. Gain about 10 Lbs when the belt dampener is on the belt, wheel off the ground, so up to around 120 lbs. On the ground tension increased to between 140-150 Lbs. That's where I run mine. It's smooth for me.

[trikermutha]

Mr. Trikermutha,

Mine didn't anywhere near double, but I only measured at the low end of the scale. I set mine at 110 in the air, with the wheel off the ground and belt dampener off the belt. Gain about 10 Lbs when the belt dampener is on the belt, wheel off the ground, so up to around 120 lbs. On the ground tension increased to between 140-150 Lbs. That's where I run mine. It's smooth for me.

Guess I will have to recheck my settings then :thumbup:

[Doc - Riverside]

All,

Just got my machine (2018 RTL) out of warranty limbo, checked it over before riding home and wouldn't you know it, the belt is too tight and vibrating. Even with the dampener on the belt.

Looking through the paperwork on the 3000 mile service, the tech acknowledged everything I asked them to do. I run the axle torque at 25% less due to lubricant on the threads, don't fold my split pin over, just slightly spread it, etc.

In reporting the belt request, I had asked them to skip the belt unless they couldn't. Paperwork said belt far outside of spec, set to minimum spec as per customer. They then reported the spec as 950 Hz.

For those of you that use sonic testers, is this a typo? Did they mean 950 Newtons? I saw ± 200 Lbs on the Krikit II, and 950 Newtons is 213.5 Lbs. converted.

I suspect 950 Hz would be somewhat high.

The number 950hz would equate to 776,619.3 newtons belt tension so the number on your paperwork has to be newtons. Apple devices has proven to work well with the Gated App. Android products didn't give consistent results because of the lower quality electronics. See this link I did in 2014.

https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?69093-Belt-tension-APP-for-Iphone-Ipad-and-Ipod-touch

[h0gr1der]

The number 950hz would equate to 776,619.3 newtons belt tension so the number on your paperwork has to be newtons. Apple devices has proven to work well with the Gated App. Android products didn't give consistent results because of the lower quality electronics. See this link I did in 2014.

https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?69093-Belt-tension-APP-for-Iphone-Ipad-and-Ipod-touch

Mr. Doc,

I cobbled up a spreadsheet in MS Excel that solves for Newtons using Hertz. Any audio measuring device should work, but some of the numbers I'm hearing from folks doing this are questionable. I tried one of those apps on my Android and didn't find it repeatable. I'll stick with my tried and true Krikit II. Either way, the dealer over-tightened my belt. I sent the service manager some feedback, with both the positive comments and some constructive criticism, if they're smart enough to actually study the problem and use it.

[RudyB]

I couldn’t find this app for I-Phone

[Jeriatric]

I couldn’t find this app for I-Phone


https://www.gatescarbondrive.com/products/tools

[RudyB]

They meant Newton’s just got a new belt it was adjusted to minimum specs which is 1000 Newton’s and I now have no belt vibration

[OrangeBlossomSpecial]

Check this Youtube out...
https://youtu.be/pWGiCt7aW6s

[h0gr1der]

Check this Youtube out...
https://youtu.be/pWGiCt7aW6s

The guy in the video seems to be crossed up about the Krikit II. It's range is 300 Lbs of force, if it is out of range then his belt is waaaaay too tight. I double checked my belt against the 950N the dealer left it at, and my Krikit II showed around the ± 200 lbs range, the 950N converts out to about 213 Lbs.

He also fell into the trap my dealership (as most dealerships do) of not being aware that the 2015 TSB allows RT riders to set the tension all the way down to 119 lbs, and in the back of both the 2018 and 2019 Can Am Spyder RT service manuals there is a specification that is lower than the front "How To" section. It allows all the way down to 141 Lbs. My dealer was confused as to why Can Am hadn't standardized the numbers.

Most folks who ride the RT/RTL enough to actually fell the belt vibration prescribe to the lower belt tension group. I asked a master tech if there was some hidden reason not to go as low as possible, the answer was nothing that BRP had put out. My take is less is better on bearings, pulleys, and vibration.