Front Sprocket Spline Failures

[toolie]

In view of the failures of front pullies was just thinking. Who has pulled their pulley and either put spline grease or locktite to stave off future failures and what did you use? And who suffered a failure because of a dry spline?

[PMK]

In view of the failures of front pullies was just thinking. Who has pulled their pulley and either put spline grease or locktite to stave off future failures and what did you use? And who suffered a failure because of a dry spline?

Months ago, I removed the front pulley from our 2014 RTS. From the original build, the splines were lubricated. Washed the pulley and output shaft, inspected and found no wear. This was done prior to Can Am having a recommended lubricant in the TSB. I utilized a different product, but publicly will recommend that owners follow the service instructions recommended lubricant.

[Eckhard]

Where do we get a copy of the TSB?

[toolie]

PMK are you saying that your splines were lubricated from the factory?

[larryd]

I just serviced my 2014 RTS and I checked the splines and they also appear to be lubed...

[h0gr1der]

I got the new 2019 service manual for the RT, there's a lot more info in there than previous versions.. The front sprocket is listed a greased with Kluberpaste 46 MR 401. It's expensive as all get out for grease, but maybe it works miracles.

MSDS suggests its composition as: Chemical characterization (preparation): Polyalkylene glycol oil, lithium soap, solid lubricants (e.g. phosphates)

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I find this issue interesting …. to the best of my knowledge … this was never a problem with the RT …. Why is it an issue with the F-3 ???? ….. Could this be similar to the DESS Fiasco ….. Not a problem until some engineer decided it needed Fixing …. NOW there is a problem … Is this a Canadian thing ????? ………...….good luck …. Mike :ohyea:

[wingit3611]

I find this issue interesting …. to the best of my knowledge … this was never a problem with the RT …. Why is it an issue with the F-3 ???? ….. Could this be similar to the DESS Fiasco ….. Not a problem until some engineer decided it needed Fixing …. NOW there is a problem … Is this a Canadian thing ????? ………...….good luck …. Mike :ohyea:

Does that mean what it sounds like, ThatRTL SE5 just don't have the problem. Except for some normal wear an tear.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Does that mean what it sounds like, ThatRTL SE5 just don't have the problem. Except for some normal wear an tear.

From what I have read about this …. RT - RTs - RTL do not have the Red Dust issue ……. Mike :ohyea:

[Spyderlass]

I'm reading this thread and looking at the links, I'm mystified by the responses, the red dust is rust, the splines aren't wearing out, they're rusting out! For rust to form, water must be penetrating the splines therefore there must be space at the bolt/washer and/or space at the rear pulley flange.
Filling the spline clearance with moly grease is a good idea, filling it with a water resistant grease might be a better idea.

Ideally, in use there should be no movement between the splined shaft and the pulley so molybdenum to prevent wear shouldn't be necessary.

The fix is to catch it before it starts and be sure the washer is good, there's no bruising on the pulley faces, plenty of water resistant grease to fill the splines and washer face to keep out the water, locktite on the thread and the bolt tightened properly so there is no movement of the pulley. With no water ingress and no movement, should be good to go! :thumbup:

[Freddy]

I find this issue interesting …. to the best of my knowledge … this was never a problem with the RT …. Why is it an issue with the F-3 ???? ….. Could this be similar to the DESS Fiasco ….. Not a problem until some engineer decided it needed Fixing …. NOW there is a problem … Is this a Canadian thing ????? ………...….good luck …. Mike :ohyea:


This problem started in 2008 on the GS/RS models. The BRP engineers issued a TSB stating that the cause of the failure was 'insufficient clamping force' on the pulley - meaning that the bolt wasn't done up properly tight at the factory, so they increased the torque spec and told dealers to mark a X on the head of the bolt when it had been retorqued. That just about solved the problem except for folks whose trikes never got the retorque to the higher spec because they never got back to a dealer, or the dealer was ignorant. :bdh:

And don't pick on my Canadian friends or.....or..........or I'll say something nice about Donny Trump. :yikes:

There are several reports of this failure on the RT1330 that I've read hereabouts. :cheers:

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

This problem started in 2008 on the GS/RS models. The BRP engineers issued a TSB stating that the cause of the failure was 'insufficient clamping force' on the pulley - meaning that the bolt wasn't done up properly tight at the factory, so they increased the torque spec and told dealers to mark a X on the head of the bolt when it had been retorqued. That just about solved the problem except for folks whose trikes never got the retorque to the higher spec because they never got back to a dealer, or the dealer was ignorant. :bdh:

And don't pick on my Canadian friends or.....or..........or I'll say something nice about Donny Trump. :yikes:

There are several reports of this failure on the RT1330 that I've read hereabouts. :cheers:

Thanks for the info …… Mike :ohyea:…………….PS - the Canadians are not my enemy …..

[larryd]

You Know I've ridden two wheel motorcycles for 50+ years...ON almost all my off road bikes I changed the front chain drive sprockets to a smaller size for lower gearing for off road riding...From what I can remember most of these sprockets fit loosely on the transmission output shaft and were held on WITH a large E clip...I rode in every tube of mud hole that existed...I had chain and sprockets wear out from mud, dirt, sand, rocks and who knows what else....BUT I DO NOT REMEMBER OF EVER HAVING A SPROCKET TO SPLINE FAILURE...

[dondje]

So I have been thinking about using this since the solution changed from locking things down. Just been waiting to do my rear tire change at the same time.

Have had it around all my life as my dad was a navy and merchant marine, ship board maintenance electrician.

Regards,

Don

BTW: Don't get it on your hands or clothing. It doesn't wash out.

"Mariner's Choice NMCBT-8, Marine Grade Never Seez, provides extreme pressure lubrication and protects against seizure, galling, and corrosion both above and below the water line. Use on winches, cables, bilge pumps, anchor lines, porthole studs, rigging, hoist cables, suspension bridges, wind turbines, offshore rigging, or other applications exposed to harsh salt water and freshwater conditions. Requires about 41% less torque while providing the same clamping force on threads. Perfect for high moisture environments!"

172518

[SpyderF3-s]

My Spyder F3-S, 61,000 miles, has had the front sprocket fail 3 times. Seems like it lasts about 20,000 miles. I also have had several dirt bikes and never had to replace a sprocket.

[PMK]

PMK are you saying that your splines were lubricated from the factory?

Yes, our RTS had lubricant applied at manufacture.

[PMK]

I'm reading this thread and looking at the links, I'm mystified by the responses, the red dust is rust, the splines aren't wearing out, they're rusting out! For rust to form, water must be penetrating the splines therefore there must be space at the bolt/washer and/or space at the rear pulley flange.
Filling the spline clearance with moly grease is a good idea, filling it with a water resistant grease might be a better idea.

Ideally, in use there should be no movement between the splined shaft and the pulley so molybdenum to prevent wear shouldn't be necessary.

The fix is to catch it before it starts and be sure the washer is good, there's no bruising on the pulley faces, plenty of water resistant grease to fill the splines and washer face to keep out the water, locktite on the thread and the bolt tightened properly so there is no movement of the pulley. With no water ingress and no movement, should be good to go! :thumbup:

This is entirely incorrect. The process is fretting. A form of corrosion not associated with moisture, but rather microscopic high pressure movement. The movement generates extremely small oxide particles the further promote wear.

[PMK]

You Know I've ridden two wheel motorcycles for 50+ years...ON almost all my off road bikes I changed the front chain drive sprockets to a smaller size for lower gearing for off road riding...From what I can remember most of these sprockets fit loosely on the transmission output shaft and were held on WITH a large E clip...I rode in every tube of mud hole that existed...I had chain and sprockets wear out from mud, dirt, sand, rocks and who knows what else....BUT I DO NOT REMEMBER OF EVER HAVING A SPROCKET TO SPLINE FAILURE...


I wish the same could be said regarding the countershaft splines on my 1981 KTM 495mc.

[PMK]

So I have been thinking about using this since the solution changed from locking things down. Just been waiting to do my rear tire change at the same time.

Have had it around all my life as my dad was a navy and merchant marine, ship board maintenance electrician.

Regards,

Don

BTW: Don't get it on your hands or clothing. It doesn't wash out.

"Mariner's Choice NMCBT-8, Marine Grade Never Seez, provides extreme pressure lubrication and protects against seizure, galling, and corrosion both above and below the water line. Use on winches, cables, bilge pumps, anchor lines, porthole studs, rigging, hoist cables, suspension bridges, wind turbines, offshore rigging, or other applications exposed to harsh salt water and freshwater conditions. Requires about 41% less torque while providing the same clamping force on threads. Perfect for high moisture environments!"

172518

No doubt better than assembling dry, however, before considering an anti seize product, realize that often then tend to dry out when in service. Maybe have a look at the Honda and BMW driveshaft spline lubes or similar products. I do like anti seize in many applications, but not all applications.

[Spyderlass]

This is entirely incorrect. The process is fretting. A form of corrosion not associated with moisture, but rather microscopic high pressure movement. The movement generates extremely small oxide particles the further promote wear.Yes, well I know what fretting is but many of the pictures of the issue have the rust on the outside of the sprocket. So if the bolt is tight and it's sealed and fretting, how does the fretted material get out of the spline to the outside of the sprocket?

IMHO there's water involved. That Mariner's Choice never seize looks about the ticket to me! :thumbup:

[dondje]

No doubt better than assembling dry, however, before considering an anti seize product, realize that often then tend to dry out when in service. Maybe have a look at the Honda and BMW driveshaft spline lubes or similar products. I do like anti seize in many applications, but not all applications.

I am guessing that you have never used this particular product. I have been using it for over 50yrs. I have a can of it that was my dad's that is over 40yo and it has not dried out. The lid hasn't been real tight on it either. I have used other anti-seize products that do dry out as you stated. But this one is the best.

My guess is that the factory installed product washes/wears away, leaving the metal exposed and increases play between sprocket and shaft. This product won't do that even when exposed to salt water on the underside of a ship's hull. It will also hold up to temps up to 2400 deg. I will be using new product for my Spyder.

Regards,

Don

[jcthorne]

From what I have read about this …. RT - RTs - RTL do not have the Red Dust issue ……. Mike :ohyea:

Unfortunately we have seen several RTs succumb to the same fate. Not as many as F3s but far more than zero.

[PMK]

Yes, well I know what fretting is but many of the pictures of the issue have the rust on the outside of the sprocket. So if the bolt is tight and it's sealed and fretting, how does the fretted material get out of the spline to the outside of the sprocket?

IMHO there's water involved. That Mariner's Choice never seize looks about the ticket to me! :thumbup:

All the best with your plan. If you fully understand fretting and the dynamics of how it is created, and propagates, plus have such faith in a using an anti seize vs more focused spline lubricant simply enjoy.

For others reading this, the pulley is made of steel, same as the gearbox output shaft. Many people assume that seeing the rust involves moisture or water. In normal cases, such as a body panel on a car, you see the rust and it has that typical reddish color. The reddish color is the conversion of the iron within the steel, into iron oxide. In that situation, yes, water corrodes the material when combined with other stuff. Fretting is a non moisture, high pressure type corrosion. The pressure within the joint of two or more items still allows microscopic movement. On aircraft we often see fretting as rivets with black rings around the heads. Aluminum oxide is blackish in color. Again, rivets are a high pressure expanded tightly fit when properly driven. The Spyder pulley, with tension from the drive belt, and the inability to prevent the pulley from walking around the splines of the shaft as the pulley rotates, creates the needed movement for fretting to occurr. As for the idea of moisture being the culprit, consider the heat given off by the engines exhaust, plus the gearbox shaft itself runs a touch warm. These applications of heat would minimize any water intrusion issues or concerns if they existed. Regardless of how tight the bolt is, the pulley will still walk as the shaft is turned. The bolt does not apply anywhere near enough friction to the pulley mounting to prevent the pulley from moving. Consider, if the splines were removed, would the bolt and washer alone be adequate to propel the Spyder forward. Obviously, no. The splines are responsible for 99.999999% of making the Spyder drive go to the wheel.

Could it be simply viable that as the splines fret, the pulley is now able to not only walk more on the splines, but also begin to not run true on center with the shaft AND with that, the washer and pulley faces begin to wear, creating the red dust from even more fretting that we see on the exterior of the pulley.

The drive pulley is a maintenance item and wear item. While not specified in the manual to routinely remove the drive pulley, clean the splines, inspect, and if serviceable, lubricate and reinstall. What interval to reinspect, with a quality proper lubricant a guess is the 28,000 mile check.

[h0gr1der]

I don't have a dog in this race (yet, mine is new), but wonder if the high belt tensions Can Am recommends may have anything to do with the splines failing?

[dondje]

All the best with your plan. If you fully understand fretting and the dynamics of how it is created, and propagates, plus have such faith in a using an anti seize vs more focused spline lubricant simply enjoy.

The drive pulley is a maintenance item and wear item. While not specified in the manual to routinely remove the drive pulley, clean the splines, inspect, and if serviceable, lubricate and reinstall. What interval to reinspect, with a quality proper lubricant a guess is the 28,000 mile check.

The anti seize that I referenced is an extreme high pressure lubricant designed for this type of application and more. It has an added benefit of anti seize properties and is extremely water proof. That is why the military uses it for all kinds of spline applications at sea and other extreme conditions. As I stated earlier, I believe that the factory lubricant breaks down. This creates an increased tolerance between the pulley and the shaft for wear (you call fretting), along with allowing water intrusion. Moisture's roll is when it does get in (yes it drys out, becoming a cycle), it helps breakdown of the lube even faster, and helps the acceleration of the color change of the iron dust.

My thought for using the product I introduced is that not only does it have some of the best lubricating properties I know of that are needed for this application. Read its spec sheet. Just as important, and what makes it stand out in this case, is it also has staying properties that I don't believe the factory or most any other lube has.

I agree with you that this a maintenance issue. I also believe from the millage that people are having problems at, that the stock lube should be replaced asap after purchase. What people use is up to them. I know what
I am going to use. From that point, only time will tell.

Regards,

Don

[Freddy]

PMK, I'm glad you've been able to clarify exactly what is happening to cause these failures - thank you.

However, I disagree with you on the point: Consider, if the splines were removed, would the bolt and washer alone be adequate to propel the Spyder forward. Obviously, no. The splines are responsible for 99.999999% of making the Spyder drive go to the wheel.

In my experience, the splines are not responsible for 'making the Spyder drive go to the wheels.' It is the clamping force of the bolt which does this by locking the component solidly together. This was in fact acknowledged in the TSB which BRP released back in 2009 when the problem first arose. The pulley was not designed to be a wear item but rather a sacrificial item IF adequate clamping force was ever lost, or never initially applied as we now see again.

FWIW, I bought my GS in Dec 2009 soon after this issue first arose and the release of that TSB. I purchased a new OEM bolt, did some minor research on what torque a bolt of that spec could take and found it to be about 10-15% higher (from memory) than what BRP recommended in the TSB, so I applied that higher torque. To this day and 96,000km later, the pulley on my trike shows no sign of red dust.

It seems to me that BRP have a short corporate memory in this regard.

I've suggested that folks apply Loctite 660 and 7471 primer to the splines if they find fretting in the early stage which, when effectively clamped with the bolt, may/should/could eliminate fretting.
:cheers:

PS I have seen a number of other automotive and industrial applications which rely on clamping force to transmit torque to splined components and I've seen a number where one part or the other is sacrificial.

[PMK]

PMK, I'm glad you've been able to clarify exactly what is happening to cause these failures - thank you.

However, I disagree with you on the point: Consider, if the splines were removed, would the bolt and washer alone be adequate to propel the Spyder forward. Obviously, no. The splines are responsible for 99.999999% of making the Spyder drive go to the wheel.

In my experience, the splines are not responsible for 'making the Spyder drive go to the wheels.' It is the clamping force of the bolt which does this by locking the component solidly together. This was in fact acknowledged in the TSB which BRP released back in 2009 when the problem first arose. The pulley was not designed to be a wear item but rather a sacrificial item IF adequate clamping force was ever lost, or never initially applied as we now see again.

FWIW, I bought my GS in Dec 2009 soon after this issue first arose and the release of that TSB. I purchased a new OEM bolt, did some minor research on what torque a bolt of that spec could take and found it to be about 10-15% higher (from memory) than what BRP recommended in the TSB, so I applied that higher torque. To this day and 96,000km later, the pulley on my trike shows no sign of red dust.

It seems to me that BRP have a short corporate memory in this regard.

I've suggested that folks apply Loctite 660 and 7471 primer to the splines if they find fretting in the early stage which, when effectively clamped with the bolt, may/should/could eliminate fretting.
:cheers:

PS I have seen a number of other automotive and industrial applications which rely on clamping force to transmit torque to splined components and I've seen a number where one part or the other is sacrificial.

If you understand my explanation of how the actual movement of the pulley on the shaft is occurring, you could then realize that by tightening the bolt further, you eliminated the movement. No movement, no fretting corrosion.

Again, the splines are responsible for making the coupling work and moving the Spyder. Beyond the mechanical aspect, if a manufacturer could utilize a straight smooth round shaft, with a pulley that had a straight smooth bore, that is a substantial cost saving to manufacture.

They utilize splines to carry the load. Even machines with a fraction of the horsepower a Spyder puts out utilize splines, or a key. A simple machine, the bicycle must use either square tapers, cotter wedge pins, or splines to keep the left and right pedals aligned. The bicycle even employs splines or drive lugs to couple the rear sprockets or cassette to the hub.

The bolt simply retains the pulley, the splines accomplish the torque load through the shaft. Tightening the bolt further simply eliminated the relative movement of the pulley on the shaft at the loads imposed upon it.

The means to eliminate fretting, stop the relative movement, or lubricate the joint.

[Freddy]

If you understand my explanation of how the actual movement of the pulley on the shaft is occurring, you could then realize that by tightening the bolt further, you eliminated the movement. No movement, no fretting corrosion.

Again, the splines are responsible for making the coupling work and moving the Spyder. Beyond the mechanical aspect, if a manufacturer could utilize a straight smooth round shaft, with a pulley that had a straight smooth bore, that is a substantial cost saving to manufacture.

They utilize splines to carry the load. Even machines with a fraction of the horsepower a Spyder puts out utilize splines, or a key. A simple machine, the bicycle must use either square tapers, cotter wedge pins, or splines to keep the left and right pedals aligned. The bicycle even employs splines or drive lugs to couple the rear sprockets or cassette to the hub.

The bolt simply retains the pulley, the splines accomplish the torque load through the shaft. Tightening the bolt further simply eliminated the relative movement of the pulley on the shaft at the loads imposed upon it.

The means to eliminate fretting, stop the relative movement, or lubricate the joint.


Agreed - that's precisely what BRP engineers were wanting to achieve and did so successfully - until more recent years!

We differ on this point in this application though : Again, the splines are responsible for making the coupling work and moving the Spyder.
EXACTLY! This is why they are failing.


Beyond the mechanical aspect, if a manufacturer could utilize a straight smooth round shaft, with a pulley that had a straight smooth bore, that is a substantial cost saving to manufacture.
Many do and use a woodruff key just in case, however I don't expect to see it in a motorcycle application due to the sophisticated nature of transmissions.

:cheers:

Whatever the cause, they sure ain't reliable and that's the problem for all concerned - especially the rider.

[PMK]

Agreed - that's precisely what BRP engineers were wanting to achieve and did so successfully - until more recent years!

We differ on this point in this application though : Again, the splines are responsible for making the coupling work and moving the Spyder.
EXACTLY! This is why they are failing.


Beyond the mechanical aspect, if a manufacturer could utilize a straight smooth round shaft, with a pulley that had a straight smooth bore, that is a substantial cost saving to manufacture.
Many do and use a woodruff key just in case, however I don't expect to see it in a motorcycle application due to the sophisticated nature of transmissions.

:cheers:

Whatever the cause, they sure ain't reliable and that's the problem for all concerned - especially the rider.

A Woodruff key or straight key is simply a single spline fit when utilized on a straight shaft. The key applies the driving force. In a tapered shaft setup, the taper, when fitted correctly applies the driving force with no need for a key, except alignment.

[Freddy]

I agree fully with the last sentence PMK, but not the second in all applications. Our hands-on experience and knowledge is obviously different - perhaps in quite different industries as you alluded to earlier.

When it's broken, it's broken- and that's the worry


Ride safe. :cheers:

[mike1952]

26 thousand miles my 2016 rts pulley failed

[007james]

My 2016 RT Limited Sprocket failed at 21,500 miles, was “fixed”, and has again failed at 33,800 miles, worse than before. This time, I had virtually no warning before the grinding, squealing, and whining started happening. After reading all of the comments, plus having my experiences, I am wondering why the grinding only occurs on deceleration, and not during full throttle Acceleration? If the shaft splines are stripped or worn too thin to keep the sprocket secure, I vision slippage and grinding both ways. Also, what about damage to the Shaft Bearing? The extreme grinding sounds and feels like failed Bearings, grinding and chattering metal against metal. I successfully drove my Spyder to the Dealer yesterday, 50 miles away, at speeds up to 60 MPH, and all was smooth unless I was even slightly, decelerating on down hill grades, then I expected a seizure any time! My wife was behind me in our Explorer, so in case it did seize, she would protect me from getting rear ended by another Vehicle. It was a relief when I finally got to tne Dealer safely! So, do we Spyder Owners of 1330 Spyders just be expected to suck it up, and accept knowing our Sprocket/shaft/spline will fail every 10 to 20 thousand miles on our Vehicles with out a permanent Fix by BRB Engineers? What about those with out Warrantees? Are they all SOL? I never had the Sprocket problem with my 2012 RT Limited during the 55,300 miles I rode it. So, obviously, the higher Torque of the 1330 must be what has caused the problem to surface.


From what I have read about this …. RT - RTs - RTL do not have the Red Dust issue ……. Mike :ohyea:

[toolie]

After following this and other threads and seeing others thoughts and experiences, I have been able to choose the right path for me.
On my 17 f3 limited with 6100 miles I will pull the pulley clean the splines and put loctite moly paste #LB 8012 on the splines and loctite blue 242 on the bolt and torque it to 96 lbs.

Thanks for all the comments

[Freddy]

Buy a new bolt - it comes with thread locker already on it.

[PMK]

After following this and other threads and seeing others thoughts and experiences, I have been able to choose the right path for me.
On my 17 f3 limited with 6100 miles I will pull the pulley clean the splines and put loctite moly paste #LB 8012 on the splines and loctite blue 242 on the bolt and torque it to 96 lbs.

Thanks for all the comments

Sounds like a very good plan. I would add though, if you see any residue of the oxides from fretting, replace the pulley. If it were me, I would utilize a light colored or glass bowl, large enough to submerge the pulley. Partially fill with Iso alcohol. Then, without submerging the pulley initially, wash the splines and center bore with an old toothbrush. Pass the brush through the bore dipping into the alcohol, and then washing the splines over the alcohol to let any debris drop into the bowl. This will allow a good visual indication by seeing oxide remnants into to alcohol, at the bottom of the bowl.

If no oxides are noticed, wash the entire pulley and output shaft splines very clean. Reinspect for wear, hopefully none is noticed. Lubricate and install the fastener. Once you have accomplished the task, future inspections and reapplication of lubricant is fairly quick and easy. As a suggestion, reinspect at around 14,000 miles, then at the 28,000 mile scheduled maintenance. I suspect with moly paste, the interval will then be at each 28,000 mile scheduled maintenance therafter.

[007james]

This procedure is only for people who do their own maintenance, not for us who don’t even change our own Oil. Heck, if BRP provided Sprockets that weren’t Crap, we would never have to deal with such reoccurring problems. There HAS to be reasonable permanent fixes to the crappy Sprocket failures. They could either Hard Chrome plate the spline area of the Sprockets, or Electroless Nickel plate the spline area, or change the entire Sprocket from crappy chinese steel to Stainless Steel that would not disintegrate. They could even use a Stainless Steel Spline insert only, in the core of the crappy steel Sprocket. The problem should be , BRP’s problem, not Dealer’s & Owner’s problem. Its a good thing BRP doesn't build Aircraft! There would be many crashes and fatalities!


Sounds like a very good plan. I would add though, if you see any residue of the oxides from fretting, replace the pulley. If it were me, I would utilize a light colored or glass bowl, large enough to submerge the pulley. Partially fill with Iso alcohol. Then, without submerging the pulley initially, wash the splines and center bore with an old toothbrush. Pass the brush through the bore dipping into the alcohol, and then washing the splines over the alcohol to let any debris drop into the bowl. This will allow a good visual indication by seeing oxide remnants into to alcohol, at the bottom of the bowl.

If no oxides are noticed, wash the entire pulley and output shaft splines very clean. Reinspect for wear, hopefully none is noticed. Lubricate and install the fastener. Once you have accomplished the task, future inspections and reapplication of lubricant is fairly quick and easy. As a suggestion, reinspect at around 14,000 miles, then at the 28,000 mile scheduled maintenance. I suspect with moly paste, the interval will then be at each 28,000 mile scheduled maintenance therafter.

[Freddy]

Hey PMK, why would you recommend this? Lubricate and install the fastener.

[stmike 1800]

A slight taper and proper torque ,and the problem would never show it's ugly head .

[Freddy]

You got that right Mike. :yes: Send that suggestion to BRP. :bdh:

[PMK]

This procedure is only for people who do their own maintenance, not for us who don’t even change our own Oil. Heck, if BRP provided Sprockets that weren’t Crap, we would never have to deal with such reoccurring problems. There HAS to be reasonable permanent fixes to the crappy Sprocket failures. They could either Hard Chrome plate the spline area of the Sprockets, or Electroless Nickel plate the spline area, or change the entire Sprocket from crappy chinese steel to Stainless Steel that would not disintegrate. They could even use a Stainless Steel Spline insert only, in the core of the crappy steel Sprocket. The problem should be , BRP’s problem, not Dealer’s & Owner’s problem. Its a good thing BRP doesn't build Aircrafts! There would be many crashes and fatalities!

Overall, the failures for many have been correct in that the gearbox output shaft is not destroyed, and the pulley is a sacrificial item at lower cost for the part and much lower cost on labor.

Our 2014 RTS was delivered from BRP with lubricated splines and had no issues when I removed the pulley for inspection.

Altering the pulleys material, adding coatings or any other change that could ruin the gearbox shaft is counterproductive.

While owners may not be acceptable to a scheduled maintenance item. The pulleys should be installed lubricated and have a scheduled maintenance interval. If an owner elects to override and skip the maintenance with a resulting failure, then so be it.

[PMK]

A slight taper and proper torque ,and the problem would never show it's ugly head .


Absolutely true, stop the relative movement and fretting does not occur.

Tapered splines are more costly to manufacture and will require a puller for pulley removal. Lubricated straight splinescan be very acceptable, if maintained.

[PMK]

Hey PMK, why would you recommend this? Lubricate and install the fastener.


You can, however the lubricant will override the thread locker and the bolt may loosen unless safetied somehow.

[Freddy]

You can, however the lubricant will override the thread locker and the bolt may loosen unless safetied somehow.

Thanks for the prompt reply PMK. Yeah I was just curious as the lubricate and install the fastener conflicts with the factory service manual ( well, at least my old copy).

It's really good of you to now add that very important clarification for toolie's benefit and perhaps others. But that raises another question - how would you suggest it be safetied?

[aka1004]

Ok so is it grease on spline and loctite on thread? Or with that no-seez, use that for both?
I had 3 sprocket failures on my 09 including complete failure where they had to replace whole shebang, tearing the engine apart.
Current RS have 10k without an issue but I’m sure it’s coming and I would like to prevent it this time.
Thank you.

[Freddy]

In the middle of reply 26 I detailed what I did to mine. Perhaps others will chime in too.

[toolie]

No grease on the spline, moly paste will last much longer and stand up to the heat much better.

[toolie]

The recommendation was a new bolt or using locktite threadlocker on the threads, and torqing the bolt 4 lbs greater than the recommended 92 foot pounds.

[aka1004]

Ok so moly paste on spline, loctite on thread.
Thank you.

[PMK]

I know some will be agitated by this, but on Finless Bobs FB group I posted photos of the task and what I did, but never posted them here. If someone decides too, they could retrieve them and post them.

In short, the pulley was removed. The pulley was washed with solvent and the gearbox shaft was washed with solvent also. Both were visually inspected. The shaft and pulley bore were lubricated with moly paste. I had purchased a new bolt with the builtin washer. The new bolt had the head drilled for safety wire. The threads of the bolt were not coated with anything. The shank of the bolt was coated with Mastinox corrosion prevention compound. Pretty certain, moly paste, but could have been Mastinox was applied to the fay surface of the pulley and built in washer. Everything was assembled wet with products described. The bolt was torqued to specs with a calibrated torque wrench. Once torqued, the bolt was safety wired to prevent any loosening unless the safety wire were to break. After safety wiring, the drilled hole in the bolt head was sealed with non acidic RTV silicone.

Wanted to add, the new bolt came with pre applied locking compound, no other thread locking compound was utilized.

[aka1004]

Is loctite 51048 same thing?
65% moly.
If not, I will go with Honda moly paste m77, also 65% and supposed to real good.

[Freddy]

I can't locate those FB details PMK. Can you please post a pic of how/what you tied the head of the bolt to. Thank you. :2thumbs:


EDIT: I now understand :yes: The pulley face on your machine has holes to loop the wire thru. The early ones did not. :banghead:

There now, my inquiring mind is more understanding. And the best substitute for brains is .......silence. :bowdown:

When fretting has take place, tension on the bolt will be reduced, enabling the rate of wear to increase. But the bolt shouldn't fall out even without the wire tie due to the factory applied thread locker on it, unless it's been a reused bolt. However, I've seen a pic of where the bolt has broken off due to the pulley being so loose.

[toolie]

The loctite 51048 is the product #LB 8012. If the honda moly is still available it should be good.

[PMK]

Enjoy. Pretty much a visual storyboard from the previous red witness marks, the oem applied grease, to the final safety wiring.

[PMK]

The loctite 51048 is the product #LB 8012. If the honda moly is still available it should be good.

Pretty certain when I was researching various products, Honda M77 is Molykote M77. Not sure it is the best for the application, but certainly better than many choices.

[Woodaddict]

If the honda moly is still available it should be good.


I use Honda Moly M77 paste. Its still available.

[007james]

Thanks for the great photos, PMK! I am wondering if there is a Bearing inside the Casing we don’t see that could also be damaged that does not get inspected or changed when the casings are not split and the shaft not changed. Also, I am wondering just how damaged the splines on the stainless steel shaft can get, and still be filed to accept a new Sprocket and
installed using your method? ( your opinion? ). I like your idea of Safety wiring the Bolt. In my young days as a 17 year old USAF Airman, I was trained to be an Aircraft Mechanic, on Reciprocating Engine Aircraft. I trained 10 months as a Mechanic at Sheppard AFB in Wichita Falls, Texas in 1959. EVERY single Bolt and Nut on every Aircraft engine had to be Safety wired. We Mechanics all had our rolls of S.S. Safety Wire. I ended up at Westover AFB in Mass. working on KC-97 Refueling Aircraft, and got to despise working on those huge engines, Safety wiring literally thousands of bolts and nuts, and especially hated changing the hot oils in those huge engines! That’s why I don’t do my own Spyder mechanics. That’s why COMPETENT Dealer Techs are employed,.....when we can find any. Have you ever contacted BRP to offer your Methodology of how to properly install Sprockets? Also, I am wondering how many hours of Labor, start to finish, including Diagnosis, is required using your Technique? Thanks again for the impressive Tutoral. I will use this method after my Warrantee expires and If I ever need to keep replacing my Failed Sprocket every 10-20 thousand miles. I was thinking of just Tack Welding the darn Sprocket to the Drive Shaft so it could not come off, but Safety Wiring the Bolt is a much more reasonable way to go.


Enjoy. Pretty much a visual storyboard from the previous red witness marks, the oem applied grease, to the final safety wiring.

[aka1004]

Do you put moly paste on shaft of bolt, teeth of spline and sprocket?
Thank you.

Also, can I use moly paste on rear axle? I’m about do rear tire.

[PMK]

Thanks for the great photos, PMK! I am wondering if there is a Bearing inside the Casing we don’t see that could also be damaged that does not get inspected or changed when the casings are not split and the shaft not changed. Also, I am wondering just how damaged the splines on the stainless steel shaft can get, and still be filed to accept a new Sprocket and
installed using your method? ( your opinion? ). I like your idea of Safety wiring the Bolt. In my young days as a 17 year old USAF Airman, I was trained to be an Aircraft Mechanic, on Reciprocating Engine Aircraft. I trained 10 months as a Mechanic at Sheppard AFB in Wichita Falls, Texas in 1959. EVERY single Bolt and Nut on every Aircraft engine had to be Safety wired. We Mechanics all had our rolls of S.S. Safety Wire. I ended up at Westover AFB in Mass. working on KC-97 Refueling Aircraft, and got to despise working on those huge engines, Safety wiring literally thousands of bolts and nuts, and especially hated changing the hot oils in those huge engines! That’s why I don’t do my own Spyder mechanics. That’s why COMPETENT Dealer Techs are employed,.....when we can find any. Have you ever contacted BRP to offer your Methodology of how to properly install Sprockets? Also, I am wondering how many hours of Labor, start to finish, including Diagnosis, is required using your Technique? Thanks again for the impressive Tutoral. I will use this method after my Warrantee expires and If I ever need to keep replacing my Failed Sprocket every 10-20 thousand miles. I was thinking of just Tack Welding the darn Sprocket to the Drive Shaft so it could not come off, but Safety Wiring the Bolt is a much more reasonable way to go.

The gearbox shaft is heat treated steel, not stainless steel. No plans to work with French Canadians even if they called, would still turn them down as in my experience often they are impossible to deal with on issues like this.

As for the gearbox output shaft bearing, yes it does exist, but requires engine removal and splitting the cases to gain access for inspecting or replacement.

In kindness, I offer not to over think this. The entire fitment of the pulley is very simple. Regarding your idea of waiting until warranty expires, entirely your choice, however, if you experience a worn pulley, at a later time, possibly outside of warranty, you could suffer serious expense of needing a gearbox output shaft. Myself, I would accomplish this even within the warranty period and at certain intervals to prevent failures. You asked how long it took. Start to finish, including getting out and picking up the tools, bodypanel removal and reinstallation was no more than 2 hours and this included replacing the air filter.

As for your suffering with those aircraft, looking back, consider the knowledge and experienced you gained. Myself too, I have loc wired enough fasteners to understand exactly what you are talking about.

[PMK]

Do you put moly paste on shaft of bolt, teeth of spline and sprocket?
Thank you.

Also, can I use moly paste on rear axle? I’m about do rear tire.


I applied lubricant to the inner faying surface of the pulley, gearbox splines, pulley splines, then slid the pulley onto the shaft, followed by applying lubricant to the outer faying surface of the pulley and washer face. No lubricant was applied to the threads or bolt shank, I applied Mastinox corrosion prevention compound to the bolt shank.

You could use moly lube on the rear axle. However you will make a huge mess doing so. Also consider, the axle torque spec is for clean dry threads. If moly is applied or even grease is applied, and contaminates the threads, torquing to spec will substantially overtorque the axle, crushing the swingarm, axle adjusters, and possibly bearing spacers.

[Freddy]

PMK thanks for all that good info.

I view of this, it would seem prudent though for the benefit of all, for you to amend your advice in post 35 to lubricate the bolt, in light of the conflicting procedure you have described above. :cheers:

[aka1004]

Is moly paste safe to use on rubber O-Ring like one on rear wheel hub?

[PMK]

PMK thanks for all that good info.

I view of this, it would seem prudent though for the benefit of all, for you to amend your advice in post 35 to lubricate the bolt, in light of the conflicting procedure you have described above. :cheers:

Not the best description by my words, but avoid reading too much into it. Lubricate, as in apply lubricant to the splines and faying surfaces, not lubricate the bolt.

[PMK]

Is moly paste safe to use on rubber O-Ring like one on rear wheel hub?


Probably, but why? Moly is messy to work with. Quality grease is a better choice.

[TerryTheSpyderRyder]

That powder comes from iron particles coming off the drive sprocket and spline, being exposed to dampness and then rusting. Moisture can't get to the splines directly. The drive sprocket is basically coming apart, and when you start seeing the red powder, time to change the sprocket-and lube the splines while you're at it.

[TerryTheSpyderRyder]

The anti seize that I referenced is an extreme high pressure lubricant designed for this type of application and more. It has an added benefit of anti seize properties and is extremely water proof. That is why the military uses it for all kinds of spline applications at sea and other extreme conditions. As I stated earlier, I believe that the factory lubricant breaks down. This creates an increased tolerance between the pulley and the shaft for wear (you call fretting), along with allowing water intrusion. Moisture's roll is when it does get in (yes it drys out, becoming a cycle), it helps breakdown of the lube even faster, and helps the acceleration of the color change of the iron dust.

My thought for using the product I introduced is that not only does it have some of the best lubricating properties I know of that are needed for this application. Read its spec sheet. Just as important, and what makes it stand out in this case, is it also has staying properties that I don't believe the factory or most any other lube has.

I agree with you that this a maintenance issue. I also believe from the millage that people are having problems at, that the stock lube should be replaced asap after purchase. What people use is up to them. I know what
I am going to use. From that point, only time will tell.

Regards,

Don

Also, extreme belt tension can cause/hasten wear on the drive sprocket and counter shaft splines. If it's whining back there, loosen the tension until it's just tight enough to be quiet and have no slop.

[Freddy]

. The drive sprocket is basically coming apart, and when you start seeing the red powder, time to change the sprocket-and lube the splines while you're at it.

:thumbup:

[Freddy]

Also, extreme belt tension can cause/hasten wear on the drive sprocket and counter shaft splines. If it's whining back there, loosen the tension until it's just tight enough to be quiet and have no slop.

That's guess work. Correct tension is better but EXTREME tension certainly ain't.

[007james]

If moisture getting in to the steel splines of the steel Drive Shaft and Sprocket splines is causing enough problems to destroy the splines,....just imagine what SALT added to the roads in the Winter does , mixed in with the water from the road!! I ride all Winter, here in Virginia, every day the temp. is 40 Degrees or above, and not raining. There is Salt on the roads all Winter, so has obviously spiced the Splines of my Sprocket and Drive Shaft. Hard Chrome Plating the Splines of both the Shaft and Sprocket would solve the problem, or changing to Stainless steel Sprocket and Shaft would also solve such a burdensome problem.



That powder comes from iron particles coming off the drive sprocket and spline, being exposed to dampness and then rusting. Moisture can't get to the splines directly. The drive sprocket is basically coming apart, and when you start seeing the red powder, time to change the sprocket-and lube the splines while you're at it.

[Freddy]

Please read this thread from the start for a informed discussion of the subject. :cheers:

[PMK]

If moisture getting in to the steel splines of the steel Drive Shaft and Sprocket splines is causing enough problems to destroy the splines,....just imagine what SALT added to the roads in the Winter does , mixed in with the water from the road!! I ride all Winter, here in Virginia, every day the temp. is 40 Degrees or above, and not raining. There is Salt on the roads all Winter, so has obviously spiced the Splines of my Sprocket and Drive Shaft. Hard Chrome Plating the Splines of both the Shaft and Sprocket would solve the problem, or changing to Stainless steel Sprocket and Shaft would also solve such a burdensome problem.

Sadly, if you were to chrome plate splines, due to material buildup from plating, it would be impossible to produce a proper fit. Add to the, I believe chrome is like other plating processes, and has a difficult time depositing plating material into holes or other sharp edged shapes.

Moisture is certainly not the issue. Fretting is a non moisture corrosion event. The two methods to prevent corrosion, either lubricate the joint, or prevent movement in the joint.

If you truly want a lifelong front pulley setup, take the bolts washer and convert it from round to D shaped. Install the bolt and modified washer and torque to specs. Either yourself or get a helper and in the area of the cutaway portion of the was, weld the pulley to the gearbox shaft. Once cooled, remove the bolt and washer, and fully weld the pulley to the gearbox shaft. Grind it flat and smooth, assuming you got ample weld penetration, and install a new bolt with built in washer.

Doing this will stop relative movement and end the spline wear problem. Spyder are not prone to gearbox failures, so pulley removal can be dealt with at a much later time, if ever.

Myself though, I will continue on the plan I started with to remove, inspect and relubricate at certain intervals.

Actually, after giving the welded on pulley idea some thought, I believe for many of the complainers, this would be a very viable method of curing the issue.

[Freddy]

PMK, I like your thinking - that would certainly be the procedure to adopt if/when the shaft is damaged after repeat failures (out of warranty) as some are seeing. In fact, I recall 1 or 2 posts from years back on this very point, to obviate the need for shaft replacement.

[007james]

Once my Warrantee runs out, if I still have it, and decide to keep it, I will definitely research welding the Pulley to the Drive Shaft. But really, wouldn’t Stainless Steel Pulley and Shaft eliminate this reoccurring problem? As for Hard Chrome Plating, you are correct. Even distribution of the plated chrome in the low current density areas of the splines would not be conducive to permanently eradicating the problem. But the splines “ could” very well be plated with Electroless Nickel, which is an immersion, Autocatalytic Process, of deposition of Nickel, which is very hard, and corrosion resistant to moisture and salt. Of course, once the Drive Shaft was too damaged , it would be too late, but the new Sprocket Splines could be plated. The leading edges of Helicopter Blades are plated with Electroless nickel , where ever they are used in areas where sand deteriorates the blades.
007james




Sadly, if you were to chrome plate splines, due to material buildup from plating, it would be impossible to produce a proper fit. Add to the, I believe chrome is like other plating processes, and has a difficult time depositing plating material into holes or other sharp edged shapes.

Moisture is certainly not the issue. Fretting is a non moisture corrosion event. The two methods to prevent corrosion, either lubricate the joint, or prevent movement in the joint.

If you truly want a lifelong front pulley setup, take the bolts washer and convert it from round to D shaped. Install the bolt and modified washer and torque to specs. Either yourself or get a helper and in the area of the cutaway portion of the was, weld the pulley to the gearbox shaft. Once cooled, remove the bolt and washer, and fully weld the pulley to the gearbox shaft. Grind it flat and smooth, assuming you got ample weld penetration, and install a new bolt with built in washer.

Doing this will stop relative movement and end the spline wear problem. Spyder are not prone to gearbox failures, so pulley removal can be dealt with at a much later time, if ever.

Myself though, I will continue on the plan I started with to remove, inspect and relubricate at certain intervals.

Actually, after giving the welded on pulley idea some thought, I believe for many of the complainers, this would be a very viable method of curing the issue.

[PMK]

Once my Warrantee runs out, if I still have it, and decide to keep it, I will definitely research welding the Pulley to the Drive Shaft. But really, wouldn’t Stainless Steel Pulley and Shaft eliminate this reoccurring problem? As for Hard Chrome Plating, you are correct. Even distribution of the plated chrome in the low current density areas of the splines would not be conducive to permanently eradicating the problem. But the splines “ could” very well be plated with Electroless Nickel, which is an immersion, Autocatalytic Process, of deposition of Nickel, which is very hard, and corrosion resistant to moisture and salt. Of course, once the Drive Shaft was too damaged , it would be too late, but the new Sprocket Splines could be plated. The leading edges of Helicopter Blades are plated with Electroless nickel , where ever they are used in areas where sand deteriorates the blades.
007james

Which helicopters are you referring too.

Stainless is often prone to galling in some types. As for nickel, not so sure that will cover any better than chrome. Plus, to be truly effective, often it is best to apply copper substate to the steel before the nickel. I am currently working on my Rickman motorcycle, which has a nickel plated frame, they certainly plated it with some thin areas.

Leading back to helicopters, if you have hands on experience with them, then you should realize the number of splined couplings involved. If you check, pretty sure none are run without lubricant...

[007james]

PKG,.....I was once the Plant Supervisor for 5 years of a Plating shop called “ EMF”, i.e. Electronics Metal Finishing. We Nickel Plated , as well as Nickel Electroformed the leading edges of Sikorsky Helicopter Blades, when I was there. Apache Helicopters also use Nickel on their Blades. We also deposited Nickel on Aluminum Rotors, as well as sophisticated Wave Guides. My Career was Plating, Metal Finishing, and Environmental, so there hasn’t been many Metal Surfaces or exotic Plating I have not done, during my Career. I once found a Rat floating in our Nitric Acid Strip tank, and plated it with Gold, and gave it to my Boss for his Desk. I sprayed the Rat with Silver impregnated paint, after positioning the Rat sitting on its back legs ready to leap. After the paint dried, it made the Rat’s surface conductive, enough to accept a Copper Plate, followed by Copper Electroform, followed by Nickel Electroform, followed by Bright Nickel Plate, Gold Strike , then bright gold plated! The Gold Rat was the prized discussion piece on my Boss’s desk for years,....until it started leaking rotting liquid on his desk! I must have missed a Void in the Rat’s body, and it was not Hermetically sealed with the plated deposits.
https://prabook.com/web/james.sutherland/661603


Which helicopters are you referring too.

Stainless is often prone to galling in some types. As for nickel, not so sure that will cover any better than chrome. Plus, to be truly effective, often it is best to apply copper substate to the steel before the nickel. I am currently working on my Rickman motorcycle, which has a nickel plated frame, they certainly plated it with some thin areas.

Leading back to helicopters, if you have hands on experience with them, then you should realize the number of splined couplings involved. If you check, pretty sure none are run without lubricant...

[PMK]

FWIW, on the Sikorskys, the nickel is a cap over the titanium leading edge that is adhesive bonded over the blades composite structure. Removing the nickel cap is a challenge to remove.

At one previous job, besides operating and overseeing the entire NDT lab, I was also tasked with maintaining the baths for Type 1 anodize, cadmium plating, plus the strip tanks and haz mat. Never enjoyed any of that. Next job, besides structure work, I was doing brush plating, plus maintaining that.

While not at your level in regards to plating, I have a little bit of experience with it.

So, that leads me to ask, I need a method to strip nickel from steel without destruction to the bronze welding that joins the tubes of my 1971 Rickman Metisse frame. Seems no plating shops that are local have a tank adequate to handle the frames dimensions.

[007james]

PMK,...nice to know there is at least one other Ex Fellow Plater here on Spyder Lovers and a Spyder riding Plater! Hoping we are not headed too far off Topic on this Sprocket thread, .......stripping Nickel plating off a combination of steel and bronze weld is going to be a problem for you. The Stripper that will dissolve Nickel off steel with out etching the steel will etch the bronze badly, and the Stripper that will strip Nickel from Bronze will etch the steel badly. Reverse plating the Nickel off the frame, while watching to stop when the bronze weld is first exposed, would be the safest way to proceed. Its been awhile since I have worked for Chemical Suppliers, so there might be some new proprietary Chemical stripper on the Market that will strip nickel plating from both steel and bronze with out etching either. But it will be a real challenge. If it were me, I’d first try to MASK the bronze weld areas, with a Masking Paint, then use a Nickel from steel Stripper, cold, to strip the Nickel off steel. One Lb. Per Gal. Of Sodium Cyanide, with 4 oz. per Gal. of Sodium Metanitro benzine sultanate would strip the nickel off steel with out etching it, but would attack the bronze. But needing such a large Tank of the Chemical will be more than a home garage project. I suggest contacting a few local Plating Contract Shops in your area to get help from. Good luck!!
Here is a Link to my last published Plating Article, in Metal Finishing Magazine, about 6 months before I retired, in 2010. My “ Last Hurrah” before retiring.
https://www.materialstoday.com/metal-finishing/features/considerations-in-the-finishing-equipment/
007james



FWIW, on the Sikorskys, the nickel is a cap over the titanium leading edge that is adhesive bonded over the blades composite structure. Removing the nickel cap is a challenge to remove.

At one previous job, besides operating and overseeing the entire NDT lab, I was also tasked with maintaining the baths for Type 1 anodize, cadmium plating, plus the strip tanks and haz mat. Never enjoyed any of that. Next job, besides structure work, I was doing brush plating, plus maintaining that.

While not at your level in regards to plating, I have a little bit of experience with it.

So, that leads me to ask, I need a method to strip nickel from steel without destruction to the bronze welding that joins the tubes of my 1971 Rickman Metisse frame. Seems no plating shops that are local have a tank adequate to handle the frames dimensions.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

So I have been thinking about using this since the solution changed from locking things down. Just been waiting to do my rear tire change at the same time.

Have had it around all my life as my dad was a navy and merchant marine, ship board maintenance electrician.

Regards,

Don

BTW: Don't get it on your hands or clothing. It doesn't wash out.

"Mariner's Choice NMCBT-8, Marine Grade Never Seez, provides extreme pressure lubrication and protects against seizure, galling, and corrosion both above and below the water line. Use on winches, cables, bilge pumps, anchor lines, porthole studs, rigging, hoist cables, suspension bridges, wind turbines, offshore rigging, or other applications exposed to harsh salt water and freshwater conditions. Requires about 41% less torque while providing the same clamping force on threads. Perfect for high moisture environments!"

172518

I checked the price …. not cheap, $19.99 , but it is Free Ground shipping ….. so if this works :clap::clap::clap:...……….Mike :ohyea:

[PMK]

I checked the price …. not cheap, $19.99 , but it is Free Ground shipping ….. so if this works :clap::clap::clap:...……….Mike :ohyea:

The Honda spline lube is similar or less expensive and purpose specific for lubricating splines. Seems that could be a better choice, but whatever works.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

The Honda spline lube is similar or less expensive and purpose specific for lubricating splines. Seems that could be a better choice, but whatever works.

:clap:....Thanks , but I seem to remember reading they don't sell it anymore …… the Bostik was for 8 oz., so enough to share or multiple applications …. PS I have 45,000+ miles …. and I don't see any RED DUST etc …. Mike :ohyea:

[PMK]

:clap:....Thanks , but I seem to remember reading they don't sell it anymore …… the Bostik was for 8 oz., so enough to share or multiple applications …. PS I have 45,000+ miles …. and I don't see any RED DUST etc …. Mike :ohyea:

When deciding on a spline lube for our machine, the Honda dealer had the stuff in stock.

Honda does not make the paste, I believe it is just Molykote M77

[oneway]

I have a 2016 RTS. Front pulley failure at 18,000 miles. Replaced under warranty. Out of warranty now another failure at 28,000 miles so only got 10000 miles out of last pulley

[007james]

Oneway, ....pretty much same on my RT. First Failure at 21,500, and the 2nd at 33,800 miles. Both fixed under Warrantee, and I just bought another 3 year BEST Extended. So my next Sprocket failure will cost me $50 Deductible, plus more down time. Obviously, I wonder how many more miles my 3rd Sprocket will hold up before failing, and the Big concern is, will my Shaft have enough spline material left to accept another, or more Sprocket Pulleys? In your case, with no Warrantee, I would guess changing the Sprocket out again, if it can be removed from the Shaft, will cost you about $500.00 U.S. ( with no surprises.) but if the Shaft splines are too far gone, than the entire engine will have to be removed, with case split, to remove the Shaft, which I have heard all kinds of different guesses on how many hours of labor will be required, up to 25 hours. With no Warrantee, that would be Land Fill time for me! Or, I’d look for a Back Yard Mechanic who might try to get it fixed enough to sell it. But I’d stay real close to Home with it. No doubt, as more time rolls on, and the 2014 and up RTs and Fs will be reporting as the miles and experiences are shared here,....hopefully.
007James



I have a 2016 RTS. Front pulley failure at 18,000 miles. Replaced under warranty. Out of warranty now another failure at 28,000 miles so only got 10000 miles out of last pulley

[jcthorne]

our experience has shown that the sprockets that have repeated failures were not installed with the required spline lube or the previously recommended loctite.

[johnv50]

After reading through all 4 pages I did not hear of anyone with a 2017 or newer F3 having this issue. I had my belt tension set to the new recommended tension and am wondering if that appears to help with this failure ??

johnv

[jcthorne]

After reading through all 4 pages I did not hear of anyone with a 2017 or newer F3 having this issue. I had my belt tension set to the new recommended tension and am wondering if that appears to help with this failure ??

johnv

Yes, have seen it on 17s and 18s as well. Have not had a 19 do it yet but its just a matter of time. The sprocket part is unchanged 2015 to current and at least the 2018s were still being installed dry at the factory. Perhaps it changed for 19.

[aka1004]

Just pulled the front sprocket, cleaned and applied that moly grease before putting it back together.
Surprisingly, there was no wear as far as I can tell and it had some white stuff on the spline.
2015 RS with 12k.
I was concerned because my old 09 had failed front sprocket 3 times including replacement of main shaft that requires engine rebuild.

[007james]

AKA, was the engine on your 09 rebuilt under Warrantee? If not, who did it, and how many hours approx. Labor was required, and total cost of rebuilding? I think that if an engine is under Warrantee, and a Mom & Pop Dealer with non Certified Can-Am Spyder Mechanics are called to the Task of removing the Spyder engine, splitting the case, inspecting all of the parts that might have failed, negotiating new or used replacement parts, reassembling, while trying to juggle keeping a Motorcycle Dealership in business during peak riding season,...,Can-Am might decide it is more economical to take a new engine sitting on the shelf and send it to the Dealer to install rather than rebuild the old one.
007James



Just pulled the front sprocket, cleaned and applied that moly grease before putting it back together.
Surprisingly, there was no wear as far as I can tell and it had some white stuff on the spline.
2015 RS with 12k.
I was concerned because my old 09 had failed front sprocket 3 times including replacement of main shaft that requires engine rebuild.

[SpyderAnn01]

After reading through all 4 pages I did not hear of anyone with a 2017 or newer F3 having this issue. I had my belt tension set to the new recommended tension and am wondering if that appears to help with this failure ??

johnv

I have a 17 F3T and had the ‘red dust’ last year. My dealer replaced the sprocket but not without a fight.

[aka1004]

It was done under 3rd party extended warranty.
I don’t remember name of that 3 rd party but they picked up the whole tab so I don’t know how much the bill was.
It was done at an authorized dealer by possibility not well trained mechanic because engine blew up the day I picked it up.
Valves destroyed the pistons. Engine was rebuilt again and dealer and brp split that bill of $8500 and at the time, new engine was $7500.

[johnv50]

SpyderAnn01....was your belt tension set to the new lower setting before the sprocket failed ??
what was your mileage at time of seeing the red dust ??

thanks johnv

[RudyB]

What was the tension set at

[SpyderF3-s]

I checked the sprocket this weekend and the bolt was loose hanging out!:banghead: Red dust! Just a matter of time now until the 5th sprocket goes bad! Back to the shop in less than 5 months.:mad:

175439

[Spyderlass]

That bolt is screwed out! That's not a sprocket failure that's a fitment failure. Plainly you'll need a new sprocket because it's been rattling around on the splines but the new one needs to be fitted correctly.

The shaft need to be thoroughly checked too because each time there's rusting and movement it's loosing metal.

[Freddy]

Plainly you'll need a new sprocket ...........and bolt.

The old reliability spyder bites again. :yikes: