Question about difficulty shifting (and a lift)

[Madison Sully]

I got my used 2010 Spyder RT-S SE5 about a year ago, with about 12,500 miles on it.
Since then I put about 2,000 miles on it, and have found it sometimes difficult to shift when neutral is involved.
I have not noticed any issue with shifting up when accelerating.
However, when it is hot, after say half hour of highway cruising, it starts having difficulty shifting down.
Getting into first as slowing to a stop light, and especially getting in and out of neutral when I want to reverse, sometimes it just won't go there.

I'm about to do some maintenance on it, so if there are any hints of what to look for to resolve this I'd appreciate it. I am going to do the following, plus whatever is recommended:
Engine oil and filters (both engine and transmission).
Air filter.
Spark plugs and wires.
Rear tire.

Thoughts on:
Exhaust gaskets (necessary, and where to get the gaskets?).
Rear bearing seals and wear sleeves (again, is this normally done at ~16,000 miles?).

And hopefully finally, what is a good, small scissor lift to use to get the rear wheel up?
I have ramps that I plan on backing onto to make the oil change and rest easier to get to.

Thanks much.
Sully

[billybovine]

Have you checked your engine oil level. The shifting issues you describe matches the symtoms when you are running low on oil.

[Madison Sully]

Have you checked your engine oil level. The shifting issues you describe matches the symptoms when you are running low on oil.

Yup, oil's not low. But I'll be changing it shortly, so the full 4.5 quarts per the manual should prove this out.

[billybovine]

Could be also a plugged HCM oil filter. I would hope it has been converted to the longer filter by now. Not sure about the 2010 owners manual. It may still say to change the HCM filter every second oil change. BRPs policy has changed to every oil change.

[Madison Sully]

Could be also a plugged HCM oil filter. I would hope it has been converted to the longer filter by now. Not sure about the 2010 owners manual. It may still say to change the HCM filter every second oil change. BRPs policy has changed to every oil change.

That's along the lines of what I was thinking. So current SOP is to change both filters when changing oil.... Will be interesting to see if this does it. Thanks!

[Madison Sully]

Alrighty, so I got the oil changed, ran the engine for a minute or so, put the last quart in.
No problem. It has the new longer filter by the way.

Went to shift, nada. It's warm, in Neutral, and won't go into either 1 or Reverse.
I still have the left side panels off, including the left side mirror (the only electrical connection that I believe is currently broken).

What gives?
New transmission filter blocked already? Did I put the transmission filter in backwards (is that even possible)?
I've half a mind to drain a quart of oil, take out the transmission filter, put the oil back, and try to shift.
But at the least I'll sleep on it.
Ideas anybody?

On the bright side, I think I fixed a small, nagging oil leak. The line from the rear head into the air intake had a loose hose clamp. I'm pretty sure that's where the oil came from.

[billybovine]

Low oil or blocked oil filter are suggestions. Not a comprehensive list of what could be wrong.

Yes the oil filter could be put in backwards. Anything is possible with enough force. Open end with rubber grommet towards the HCM.

Sometimes the shifter switch starts to fail and that requires the whole left handlebar control center to be replaced.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Could also be the gear position sensor gone bad.

[Madison Sully]

BRP item number 420640192 on that gear position sensor?
I will also check the linkages underneath tonight.

[Snowbelt Spyder]

Sully - Did you check the HCM filter yet? Yes it’s possible to put the HCM filter in backwards. Fits just fine. It’s the most common cause of failure to shift immediately after changing oil. Happened to another member on here not too long ago. Since the panels are still off, it’s just a 5 minute check. You don’t have to drain any oil to pull that cap off. As Billy said, grommet goes towards HCM.

[Madison Sully]

Not yet, will do tonight I think. I am pretty sure it is in the right way. But we’ll see. Better to check this than start throwing money at parts.

[Madison Sully]

Curiouser and curiouser.
OK, so I got home, drained about a quart of oil out of the black tank (I know, I didn't need to, but, well the level of the filter is below the level of oil in the tank, so....), and pulled the filter housing off. Filter was in correctly.

BUT....

Not a drop of oil made it to the HCM filter. I could put the filter back in the box and return it, it's that clean.
Sooo, what prevents oil from getting to the transmission filter housing?
It looks like just a hose going to the bottom of it.

[DGoebel]

Sully, Re your lift question, many find the very reasonably priced Harbor Freight ATV lift that has the lower 4 3/4 minimum height.
https://www.harborfreight.com/1500-lbs-capacity-atvmotorcycle-lift-61632.html

[Madison Sully]

Sully, Re your lift question, many find the very reasonably priced Harbor Freight ATV lift that has the lower 4 3/4 minimum height.
https://www.harborfreight.com/1500-lbs-capacity-atvmotorcycle-lift-61632.html

Wow that looks stout, thanks! Looks like I'll see if I can find a coupon....
:D

[Madison Sully]

So it looks like the oil system has a strainer, but if that's blocked I'd think the oil pressure light would have stayed on.
I idled for probably about 5 minutes in total last night, and the oil pressure light went off after the first ~3-5 seconds.

[Snowbelt Spyder]

Well Sully, just to make sure we're on the same page - the new HCM filter cap is 1 5/8" long. The new style filter is closed at one end and has a rubber grommet around the open hole on the other end. So, you have to ignore the picture in your operator's guide on page 126, which shows the old style filter. The open end with the grommet goes up against the HCM. Closed end in the cap. if there was oil in your old filter, there should be no reason oil isn't still pumping.

[Madison Sully]

Well Sully, just to make sure we're on the same page - the new HCM filter cap is 1 5/8" long. The new style filter is closed at one end and has a rubber grommet around the open hole on the other end. So, you have to ignore the picture in your operator's guide on page 126, which shows the old style filter. The open end with the grommet goes up against the HCM. Closed end in the cap. if there was oil in your old filter, there should be no reason oil isn't still pumping. You're right about the strainer - it's on the common outlet from the tank. It would have blocked everything.

Yup, I have the new longer HCM filter cap and the longer filter installed, rubber grommet facing to the hole into the HCM, closed end in the cap.
There was oil in the old filter, and I actually rode it around a bit before the oil change and the gear switching was working OK (as far as I know).
Nothing obvious fell out with the old oil, not gritty or anything when I poured from my drip pan into a collection container.
Just a normal dark oil.

[Snowbelt Spyder]

Well crap! The HCM has its own pump, but it might be too early to declare that bad yet. It worked fine yesterday. Have to study on this for awhile.

[billybovine]

There is not a common outlet from the oil tank. The HCM has its own suction line from the oil tank feeding its own oil pump. There are no HCM oil pressure sensors so no light lights or warnings for low pressure in the HCM system. The oil light on the display is for engine oil. Different system using the same oil.

Pull the HCM suction line from the tank and inspect it. Should only take a few minutes. Just a pain to drain some more oil. See item 1 in picture. Banjo fitting.

[Madison Sully]

There is not a common outlet from the oil tank. The HCM has its own suction line from the oil tank feeding its own oil pump. There are no HCM oil pressure sensors so no light lights or warnings for low pressure in the HCM system. The oil light on the display is for engine oil. Different system using the same oil.

Pull the HCM suction line from the tank and inspect it. Should only take a few minutes. Just a pain to drain some more oil. See item 1 in picture. Banjo fitting.

Thanks for this, looks like a viable hint. The parts diagram I saw said this went to the motor. But not only does it go toward the HCM, it DOES have a strainer....
I'll have to do this probably on Thursday though; I'm tired, my wife got me a big Mexican dinner, I'm on my second beer, and I have to talk in front of people tomorrow.

[Madison Sully]

There is not a common outlet from the oil tank. The HCM has its own suction line from the oil tank feeding its own oil pump. There are no HCM oil pressure sensors so no light lights or warnings for low pressure in the HCM system. The oil light on the display is for engine oil. Different system using the same oil.

Pull the HCM suction line from the tank and inspect it. Should only take a few minutes. Just a pain to drain some more oil. See item 1 in picture. Banjo fitting.

Thanks for this, looks like a viable hint. The parts diagram I saw said this went to the motor. But not only does it go toward the HCM, it DOES have a strainer....
I'll have to do this probably on Thursday though; I'm tired, my wife got me a big Mexican dinner, I'm on my second beer, and I have to talk in front of people tomorrow.

By the way, #30 in the picture is a strainer, and that hose goes to the HCM.

171725

[billybovine]

Engine oil strainer is item 18. HCM oil strainer is item 30.

Just a side note. The HCM will not fill with oil until it goes through a couple shift cycles. So if it was not able to shift because of an electrical issue let's say. The HCM will stay in recirculating mode. Pump will be running dry. No oil at the filter.

[Madison Sully]

Engine oil strainer is item 18. HCM oil strainer is item 30.

Just a side note. The HCM will not fill with oil until it goes through a couple shift cycles. So if it was not able to shift because of an electrical issue let's say. The HCM will stay in recirculating mode. Pump will be running dry. No oil at the filter.

If I'm hearing you right, what you're saying is this could be the strainer being plugged.
OR, it could be a bad gear selector switch (no signal to the computer that I want to change gears), OR it could be a bad gear position sensor (not sure how...)?

I suppose while I'm in there I may as well clean up strainer #18....

[billybovine]

Gear postion sensor I don't think so. If it was. There would be a E in the gear display. Also the N and R lights would alternately flash.

[Madison Sully]

Gear postion sensor I don't think so. If it was. There would be a E in the gear display. Also the N and R lights would alternately flash.

Well, that's not happening.
:gaah:
I mean, WOHOO, something to do this weekend!

[LeftCoast]

Gentlemen this is what makes this forum great, what a fantastic respectful exchange of info, and this is coming from a guy who is barely able to follow along. I don’t understand it all but I’m learning anyway, thank you. :bowdown:

[Snowbelt Spyder]

There is not a common outlet from the oil tank. The HCM has its own suction line from the oil tank feeding its own oil pump. .

Thanks Billy. I was looking at the wrong tank picture. SE5 tank has the extra hose...and I knew that! Thanks.

[Snowbelt Spyder]

Hey Sully - as the proud owner of an SE5, you might be curious about all this:

[Madison Sully]

Hey Sully - as the proud owner of an SE5, you might be curious about all this:

Whoa, excellent, thanks!

I'll dig into it as soon as I can....

[Madison Sully]

Those diagrams were very helpful.
Here's what I did today:
Drained the oil and checked the strainer. Nothing in it, perfectly clean.
Refilled oil.
Took the gear selector switch apart (felt adventurous). Nothing looking wrong. Lost a little ball and a nut, but that should be no problem to replace.
Thought, perhaps there is no priming of that HCM pump, so I removed the dipstick and slightly opened the HCM filter housing to let oil move where it wanted to by opening the top of an air space.
Tightened everything back up.
Started the motor.
Toggled the gear selector internal bits to change from N to 1. Couple tries later, THUD!
Back and forth from N to 1 to N a few times, satisfying THUD! going into first each time.
Everything so far with parking brake on, as the left control stuff is still in pieces.

So I'm left with either:
1. There was an air gap that didn't allow oil into the HCM pump. Note for later: fill the oil, Then install HCM filter.
2. There is a problem with my switch that, due to being disassembled, I can press the detentes further in than the assembled lever would allow.

:dontknow:

I'll report back once I get the switch reassembled.
Meanwhile, thanks all for the help, I'm most of the way done.

[Madison Sully]

Alrighty, that was fun.
Got the gear selector assembly all back together, started it up, and ran it back and forth N-1-N-R-N-1-N-R-N a couple of times.
All seems well.
Going to put the panels on now, and go for a ride, hopefully before it starts raining. Again.

So I'm left with thinking (hoping) that the original shifting issues caused by a mostly blocked HCM filter.
And the problem after changing the oil was an air gap at the HCM pump.
Knock wood, we'll see what happens next time the system is hot after an hour or so riding.

Thanks again,
Sully

[Madison Sully]

Went for a ~20 minute test ride, and I'd say it's 80-90% of the way from where it was to where it should be.
By that I mean, it shifts really smooth and easy now. Definitely better than before the oil change.
Tiny niggle though; it missed shifting N to R twice, but giving it perhaps 100-200 RPM worth of additional throttle and it shifted.
We'll have to wait for a long hot ride though; it's about to rain I think.