Harley Clamping Down on Owners

[Tango]

Read this on an Indian Forum. HD is now enforcing EPA Laws in regards to tampering with emissions on bikes still under warranty. A letter was sent out to CA. dealers regarding this. Owners that go in for service are getting their warranties voided if engine management systems are tampered with. Carb rules are much stricter than the rest of the USA. :thumbup: Tom :spyder:

[Gwolf]

California has always been against modifications of any kind. They have rules to keep you from changing the stock mufflers out too.

[UtahPete]

California has always been against modifications of any kind. They have rules to keep you from changing the stock mufflers out too.

This needs to become national law in my opinion.

[Navydad]

This needs to become national law in my opinion.

No tampering is the law in many states, but it just isn't enforced as rigorously in most places. Read the fine print on your exhaust systems and see where it says they are manufactured to meet FEDERAL requirements. In states where yearly inspections are called for many folks just put the stock pipes on for inspection and then remove them again after the inspection. Exhaust laws like gun laws are only as good as the enforcement behind them. HD is only getting onboard because of the pressure being put on them. They make big $$$ from the sale of "off road or for racing purposes only" modifications and they aren't about to stop voluntarily. My systems are always stock because there is little worse than listening to a load pipe for 500 miles a day.

[KyBill]

This needs to become national law in my opinion.

Not in mine.

People should mind their own business.

[UtahPete]

Not in mine.

People should mind their own business.

Don't look now, but there are lots of limits on personal freedom for the social good. It's called 'society'

[Zoot]

This needs to become national law in my opinion.

Well, I would certainly agree that a lot of guys want their bikes to be super loud so they can annoy people - and they do. But I would also point out that if you are only allowed to use OEM mufflers then your older bike may be scrap. Any idea where to find NOS mufflers for a 1986 Yamaha SRX600 or even a 1991 Suzuki VX800? If not, a rusty pipe could mean the bike is toast.

[SpyderAnn01]

Well, I would certainly agree that a lot of guys want their bikes to be super loud so they can annoy people - and they do. But I would also point out that if you are only allowed to use OEM mufflers then your older bike may be scrap. Any idea where to find NOS mufflers for a 1986 Yamaha SRX600 or even a 1991 Suzuki VX800? If not, a rusty pipe could mean the bike is toast.

I was in the garage today and saw that we have two stock exhausts from 10-12 RT, and I thought I should throw them out, maybe I’ll hang on to them.

[KyBill]

Don't look now, but there are lots of limits on personal freedom for the social good. It's called 'society'

Its hardly a binary function and no reason to sublimate personal freedom for “societal good”” when the overall benefit to society is minimal.

Far greater percentages of noise and pollution come from diesel trucks than could ever come from cycles which are much more noise and fuel efficient.

[Gwolf]

Well, I would certainly agree that a lot of guys want their bikes to be super loud so they can annoy people - and they do. But I would also point out that if you are only allowed to use OEM mufflers then your older bike may be scrap. Any idea where to find NOS mufflers for a 1986 Yamaha SRX600 or even a 1991 Suzuki VX800? If not, a rusty pipe could mean the bike is toast.


All after-market exhausts in California are not illegal. In the case of no longer being able to find the OEM parts, you could still use after-market parts. The after-market parts used would be required to have a EO number on them. After-market manufactures can get their products pre-approved and certified by the state as meeting the EPA and noise standards. Once certified, the after-market parts receive the EO number stamp and they are just as legal as the OEM parts. It is a law that puts a lot of hoops out for the manufacturers to jump through before their parts are really legal. It makes an already confusing subject, even more confusing.

[KX5062]

Read this on an Indian Forum. HD is now enforcing EPA Laws in regards to tampering with emissions on bikes still under warranty. A letter was sent out to CA. dealers regarding this. Owners that go in for service are getting their warranties voided if engine management systems are tampered with. Carb rules are much stricter than the rest of the USA. :thumbup: Tom :spyder:

Sorry, this is old news. This has to do with a consent decree the MoCo was forced to sign with the EPA in July 2017. This why all of the Screaming Eagle engine and exhaust accessories now meet EPA standards.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-harleydavidson-emissions-idUSKBN1A41UU

The ARB (formerly known as the CARB) has always been "this way". Gov Ahnold signed a law about modification back in 2012 that made things even worse. The newest proposal being kicked around is to make all off-road vehicle conform to on-road ARB standards by 2027. This would effectively kill the OHV industry in Commifornia. Which, BTW, is being strangled by road and trail closures throughout the state, which is being copied throughout the Western US.

If you think any of this stuff has anything to do with a cleaner environment, I'll sell you a bridge cheap.

[jcthorne]

This needs to become national law in my opinion.

I disagree.

There is a very fine line between right to repair and no tampering. And the folks writing the laws do not know or care the difference. Anti tampering laws put independent shops out of business. Be very careful what you ask for.

[Lew L]

Soon enough we won't be able to "legally" change our oil or spark plugs. It's a slippery slope when we let the HUGE federal government keep snipping away at our " persute of happiness".

I dis-like " loud pipes" . Dosen't matter shattered style of bike they are on either. But I don't want my bikes to sound like sewing machines. AND----- I don't think " loud pipes save lives"

Lew L

[johnsimion]

Sorry, this is old news. This has to do with a consent decree the MoCo was forced to sign with the EPA in July 2017. This why all of the Screaming Eagle engine and exhaust accessories now meet EPA standards.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-harleydavidson-emissions-idUSKBN1A41UU

The ARB (formerly known as the CARB) has always been "this way". Gov Ahnold signed a law about modification back in 2012 that made things even worse. The newest proposal being kicked around is to make all off-road vehicle conform to on-road ARB standards by 2027. This would effectively kill the OHV industry in Commifornia. Which, BTW, is being strangled by road and trail closures throughout the state, which is being copied throughout the Western US.

If you think any of this stuff has anything to do with a cleaner environment, I'll sell you a bridge cheap.

Why should emissions standards for off-road vehicles be different from those for on-road vehicles? Pollution is pollution, no matter the source. Consider a street-legal Jeep versus e.g., a Can-Am off-road vehicle. Both are used off-road but what rational reason is there for the Can-Am to be exempt while Jeep is not? If the pollution from these off-road vehicles is irrelevant, then why don't we also eliminate pollution controls for on-road vehicles? You call California "Commiefornia"? California is acting on behalf of the health of its citizens and will roll back the rules if the majority of its citizens vote that way. It's called "democracy." You want to see real Communism? Look at all the Chinese walking around Beijing wearing masks and buying oxygen bottles to breathe. Their government doesn't care and the people have no say in the matter. That's 180 degrees opposite of what you call "Commiefornia." You want that here? Seriously?

[Gwolf]

Why should emissions standards for off-road vehicles be different from those for on-road vehicles? Pollution is pollution, no matter the source. Consider a street-legal Jeep versus e.g., a Can-Am off-road vehicle. Both are used off-road but what rational reason is there for the Can-Am to be exempt while Jeep is not? If the pollution from these off-road vehicles is irrelevant, then why don't we also eliminate pollution controls for on-road vehicles? You call California "Commiefornia"? California is acting on behalf of the health of its citizens and will roll back the rules if the majority of its citizens vote that way. It's called "democracy." You want to see real Communism? Look at all the Chinese walking around Beijing wearing masks and buying oxygen bottles to breathe. Their government doesn't care and the people have no say in the matter. That's 180 degrees opposite of what you call "Commiefornia." You want that here? Seriously?


Because off road vehicles don't need a tag or registration. What is the government going to threaten them with? How are they going to test them? How would they even know if you built one? Before they can pass laws controlling off road vehicles, they must first determine where the off road vehicles are and who owns them.

It would create a whole new governmental bureaucracy, and that might make the politicians quite happy, if they didn't get voted out of office for trying to regulate unregistered vehicles.

Most off road vehicles are only used for short periods of time for recreation and not driven daily on the highways.

[AMTJIM]

The original GS exhaust that met federal standards would have burns and holes form, there was a Hindle exhaust for the GS that was offered supposedly for off road use and it had problems. Slip joint gaskets that failed at the mid-pipe(Honda parts worked better) and exhaust connection. Later models had Akropovich exhaust available.

[johnsimion]

Because off road vehicles don't need a tag or registration. What is the government going to threaten them with? How are they going to test them? How would they even know if you built one? Before they can pass laws controlling off road vehicles, they must first determine where the off road vehicles are and who owns them.

It would create a whole new governmental bureaucracy, and that might make the politicians quite happy, if they didn't get voted out of office for trying to regulate unregistered vehicles.

Most off road vehicles are only used for short periods of time for recreation and not driven daily on the highways.

Off-road vehicles already DO have to be registered in NV, UT, AZ and CA (see, e.g., https://ohv.nv.gov/register, https://dmv.utah.gov/vehicles/atvs-dirt-bikes, https://www.ridenowpeoria.com/information-about--off_highway_registration). Since you were clearly wrong on that point, I didn't bother to research the rest of the U.S.

As for enforcement, NV and CA (to my personal knowledge) already require smog tests for on-road vehicles. There are smog testing stations all over Las Vegas already. Requiring tests for off-road vehicles as well would not create a "whole new bureaucracy," just more smog tests for the existing network. This is enforced by decals. It's not really that hard for a cop to see an off-road vehicle somewhere, anywhere, and see if it has a decal. Doesn't have to be off-road at the time. You live in Florida, and South Florida (at least) used to require smog tests because I had to get my car tested when I lived there in the early 2000s. They eliminated the smog tests but they wouldn't be that hard to put back IF the state was so inclined.

For pete's sake, nobody is going to get voted out of office for trying to regulate off-road vehicles. Very few people own them relative to the overall population, and they don't generate any great groundswell of sympathy among the rest of us when we can see the huge clouds they generate at their playground on the east side of Las Vegas. On weekends I can see the cloud of dust from my house 12-15 miles away.

And NONE of this addresses my primary point: Pollution is pollution, no matter the source.

[Lew L]

Not to pick at nits------ but there are only 2 counties in Nevada that require smog tests for on road vehicals. Clark co. ( Las Vegas ) and Washoe co. ( Reno/ Sparks) No smog tests in the other 14 counties.

[RLS Exhaust]

I sale Exhaust to california customers but require them to sign a wavier saying they understand that my exhaust are not legal for on road use and are not legal in California unless on a closed course .I do this to protect myself other companies selling off road exhaust for on road use have suffered some very large fines from CARB

[Gwolf]

The off road vehicles I see are mostly used on farms. They could be considered farm vehicles.

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

If it weren't ca. doing it then it would be ny
can't wait to retire & move to nc

[AAbruzzese]

Its hardly a binary function and no reason to sublimate personal freedom for “societal good”” when the overall benefit to society is minimal.

Far greater percentages of noise and pollution come from diesel trucks than could ever come from cycles which are much more noise and fuel efficient.

You probably do not live close to a neighbor who owns a super loud HD and loves to fire it up at 4:30 in the morning. The main reason I keep hearing is the need for other drivers to hear you when riding.

[Lew L]

We have this fine event in Reno called "Street Vibrations " It's like the Sturgis event but tamer. But it's very loud.

I usually build something or paint the shop and stay out of downtown.

[Joe T.]

Sorry, - - - - - -, I'll sell you a bridge cheap.

So, how much is that bridge and where is it? I've always wanted my own bridge. I plan to live under it when I become completely senile!!!

Joe T.

;)

[Zoot]

You probably do not live close to a neighbor who owns a super loud HD and loves to fire it up at 4:30 in the morning. The main reason I keep hearing is the need for other drivers to hear you when riding.

We've got a lot of HDs around with open pipes. And you know what? If you have a late-model car with the windows rolled up, air on, maybe have the stereo on.... you probably won't notice even the loudest HD coming up on the freeway.

[asp125]

My right to own and use aftermarket exhausts shall not be infringed! They'll have to pry my pipes from my cold, dead, hands! ;)

[WisconsinDavid]

Just wait for the time to come when it is decided that for the best of society people may no longer ride motorcycles. Be careful allowing them to chip away at us, a little here and a little there, determined by what some feel is best for "society." That doesn't always end well or where you expected.

[canamjhb]

This is not a subject that usually interests me but I do have to chime in here. I find it offensive whe HD riders have to irritate others by blipping the throttle when stopped at a stop light. Just flexing their exhaust. No reason other than trying to be macho. And if loud pipes save lives, why do people ever get hit by trains.... Jim

[Jackhartjr]

Before y'all start waxing poetic about how great the EPA and carb laws are, I'll give you some food for thought.
I drive a truck. I actually own it and am pleased to a rather fantastic company.
Mine is a 1998 model with a Detroit Series 60 engine.
Before they started dicking around with pollution crap.
If I had to replace it today, I would be paying more than $50,000.00 for a DEF system that if it has a pr, most mechanics have no clue what to do to fix it other than to throw parts at it, some of those parts cost more than $10,000.00!
The system was rushed into service by an EPA that cares nothing about common sense.

Mow if you are traveling down the road and see a truck puffing out clouds of exhaust that looks like Indian Smoak signals, it it going through what's know as a 'regen.' Roll your windows down and breathe that! Gotta be healthy!
I'm for the environment, however EPA and carb are ridiculous!

[UtahPete]

Before y'all start waxing poetic about how great the EPA and carb laws are, I'll give you some food for thought.
I drive a truck. I actually own it and am pleased to a rather fantastic company.
Mine is a 1998 model with a Detroit Series 60 engine.
Before they started dicking around with pollution crap.
If I had to replace it today, I would be paying more than $50,000.00 for a DEF system that if it has a pr, most mechanics have no clue what to do to fix it other than to throw parts at it, some of those parts cost more than $10,000.00!
The system was rushed into service by an EPA that cares nothing about common sense.

Mow if you are traveling down the road and see a truck puffing out clouds of exhaust that looks like Indian Smoak signals, it it going through what's know as a 'regen.' Roll your windows down and breathe that! Gotta be healthy!
I'm for the environment, however EPA and carb are ridiculous!

Just because you don't like it doesn't make the EPA and its regulations 'ridiculous'

[UtahPete]

Just wait for the time to come when it is decided that for the best of society people may no longer ride motorcycles. Be careful allowing them to chip away at us, a little here and a little there, determined by what some feel is best for "society." That doesn't always end well or where you expected.

That is a ridiculous argument and quite unconvincing I think.

[Fire34]

I am new to this motorcycle thing, but my question is this. Why do we want loud exhausts? We have a 2013 RTL and it seems pretty loud to me, I do not know if the previous owner did any after market exhaust work on it or not. It looks like the oem tailpipe ? I try and idle into the neighborhood just to not annoy anyone. the neighborhood harley owner does the same. Just wondering Thanks guys

[UtahPete]

I am new to this motorcycle thing, but my question is this. Why do we want loud exhausts? We have a 2013 RTL and it seems pretty loud to me, I do not know if the previous owner did any after market exhaust work on it or not. It looks like the oem tailpipe ? I try and idle into the neighborhood just to not annoy anyone. the neighborhood harley owner does the same. Just wondering Thanks guys

Thanks for being responsible and considerate of others.

[2dogs]

People who ride with loud pipes are trying to project the image that they are as bad a$$ as their pipes sound. It's just a mental waist basket that only works when they run in large groups. Loud pipes don't bother me much anymore because my hearing is pretty much shot at this point in my life. Maybe it's because I rode loud pipes for too many years. LOL

[Bob Denman]

What is the rarest Harley-Davidson?:shocked:


The one that still has the stock exhaust system intact! :roflblack:

[KX5062]

Why should emissions standards for off-road vehicles be different from those for on-road vehicles? Pollution is pollution, no matter the source. Consider a street-legal Jeep versus e.g., a Can-Am off-road vehicle. Both are used off-road but what rational reason is there for the Can-Am to be exempt while Jeep is not? If the pollution from these off-road vehicles is irrelevant, then why don't we also eliminate pollution controls for on-road vehicles? You call California "Commiefornia"? California is acting on behalf of the health of its citizens and will roll back the rules if the majority of its citizens vote that way. It's called "democracy." You want to see real Communism? Look at all the Chinese walking around Beijing wearing masks and buying oxygen bottles to breathe. Their government doesn't care and the people have no say in the matter. That's 180 degrees opposite of what you call "Commiefornia." You want that here? Seriously?


Off-road vehicles already DO have to be registered in NV, UT, AZ and CA (see, e.g., https://ohv.nv.gov/register, https://dmv.utah.gov/vehicles/atvs-dirt-bikes, https://www.ridenowpeoria.com/information-about--off_highway_registration). Since you were clearly wrong on that point, I didn't bother to research the rest of the U.S.

As for enforcement, NV and CA (to my personal knowledge) already require smog tests for on-road vehicles. There are smog testing stations all over Las Vegas already. Requiring tests for off-road vehicles as well would not create a "whole new bureaucracy," just more smog tests for the existing network. This is enforced by decals. It's not really that hard for a cop to see an off-road vehicle somewhere, anywhere, and see if it has a decal. Doesn't have to be off-road at the time. You live in Florida, and South Florida (at least) used to require smog tests because I had to get my car tested when I lived there in the early 2000s. They eliminated the smog tests but they wouldn't be that hard to put back IF the state was so inclined.

For pete's sake, nobody is going to get voted out of office for trying to regulate off-road vehicles. Very few people own them relative to the overall population, and they don't generate any great groundswell of sympathy among the rest of us when we can see the huge clouds they generate at their playground on the east side of Las Vegas. On weekends I can see the cloud of dust from my house 12-15 miles away.

And NONE of this addresses my primary point: Pollution is pollution, no matter the source.

First off, I'll try to refrain from getting overly political and stay with factual things. Secondly, I am very much an ardent environmentalist with a however. That however being it has to be practical as well as effective. It also has to be based on sound science and not pseudo-religion masquerading as environmental awareness. I was raised in LA during the bad old days when we couldn't play outside because the air was so bad it hurt to breathe and it made your eyes water. So, I lived it.

In California, motorcycles are NOT sound or emission tested. Nor are they tested in any way after sale. OHVs have a "green sticker" for registration. That program was instituted in the 1970's with the promise that you could ride on road for up to 5 miles or cross roads, so you could connect trails. Prior to this you legally couldn't. Plus, the money from the program was supposed to go into a specific fund to pay for the maintenance and EXPANSION of the OHV trail network. NONE of that happened. It would take too long to get further into it, and that doesn't even scratch the surface of the Red sticker program.

CARB and the EPA are bureaucracy first and foremost. They exist to regulate and expand their power and scope of their authority. As exhibited by the fact that the EPA has their own set of regulations that are significantly different than EURO standards. Is the air different in Europe versus the US? Is science different across the pond? Of course not. What's different is the bureaucracy. Now they clearly do some good work, and I'm not saying they don't. And, I'm not saying they were founded with a good idea or good intentions, but once in place bureaucratic principals take over. (I've lived that too.)

Also, CARB is now calling itself the "ARB". Big deal, right? Well, kinda is. The reason is because the CALIFORNIA air resources board is dropping the California part because they want to take over the regulation of air pollution for the ENTIRE Western United States and are actively trying to get the neighboring states to cede their sovereignty to them on a variety of issues. This is part of the reason the Trump administration is talking about clipping the wings of California and their federal exemptions.

Some small examples of regulations coming to you. The CARB mandates that there be something like 56 different gasoline blend just for this state. (There are 58 counties.) They also demand winter and summer blends of gas, plus all gasoline sold here must be refined here. No gas importation/no free market. There have been no new refineries built in something like 50 years, because they can't due to the bureaucrats. Just like California can't import electricity because you can't insure that the source of the electricity conforms to California clean air standards.

Now as to the emission testing. If the goal was truly clean air, then why not test a tailpipe, if it's clean, good to go. This is the standard in other places. In Commiefornia they really don't care about the tailpipe, they just want to make sure you have all of the factory equipment and have not modified it. Sure you have to "pass" the sniffer test, but not really. If you have all of the factory equipment and its determined to work, then you get a waiver and you pass. Of course, all of this costs money. Which is the real reason for all of this. California can not live within a budget (sound familiar?), so they dream up ways to extract more money from the public and conceal their real intent.

I could go on, but I'll leave it there.

Now to OHV specifically (the passion of my youth), I'll try to be brief. The amount of pollution emitted from all OHVs is not even measurable as compared to on road vehicles, because you have to take into account engine size and miles driven, which they do not. A long multi-day off road ride might be a hundred miles. I won't count dual sporting because those vehicle have to have license plates. Then you compared a Jeep versus a Can Am OHV. However, you don't take engine displacement into account, mechanical complexity, reliability, performance, weight, etc. So I believe your comparison is inaccurate.

True story. About 20 years ago (when 2 strokes were still super popular) CARB decided to test off road vehicle emissions to get some data because they wanted to regulate them. So, they placed monitoring stations within the Gorman OHV park outside of LA, instead of any other OHV park. The ambient air is already a little dirtier than normal because the park is just outside of the LA basin, plus it's dusty and next to the I5 corridor (lots of long haul trucking). Surprise, surprise. The air was very clean and obviously did not conform to their desires. So, they redid the test. Only this time they placed the monitoring stations ON the Interstate 5 corridor and at public bus stops in downtown LA, not IN the park. Not only that, the devices were placed 18' above ground on the up hill side of the steep grade (known as the Grape Vine). Guess what? SHOCKINGLY, the results were totally different and now justified their regulations. The only reason this became known was because of a whistle blower who was totally fed up with the lies. The reaction by the public (non OHV community) and politicians? YAWN. And, now that false data is still used by environmentalists to justify OHV pollution regulations.

Again, I could go on, but I won't ya'll get the idea.

Anyway, Happy Easter to all. :thumbup:

[Gwolf]

Figures don't lie, but liars do figure.

[Jackhartjr]

KX5062, you pretty much summed it up perfectly sir!
Thank you!

[UtahPete]

Figures don't lie, but liars do figure.

Go figure!

[johnsimion]

See red responses below. Red, you know, as in "Commiefornia." LOL


First off, I'll try to refrain from getting overly political and stay with factual things. Secondly, I am very much an ardent environmentalist with a however. That however being it has to be practical as well as effective. It also has to be based on sound science and not pseudo-religion masquerading as environmental awareness. I was raised in LA during the bad old days when we couldn't play outside because the air was so bad it hurt to breathe and it made your eyes water. So, I lived it.

In California, motorcycles are NOT sound or emission tested. Nor are they tested in any way after sale.

They should be.

OHVs have a "green sticker" for registration. That program was instituted in the 1970's with the promise that you could ride on road for up to 5 miles or cross roads, so you could connect trails. Prior to this you legally couldn't. Plus, the money from the program was supposed to go into a specific fund to pay for the maintenance and EXPANSION of the OHV trail network. NONE of that happened. It would take too long to get further into it, and that doesn't even scratch the surface of the Red sticker program.

CARB and the EPA are bureaucracy first and foremost. They exist to regulate and expand their power and scope of their authority.

Speaking as a retired environmental attorney for the U.S. Army, I can categorically state that you are full of baloney. The EPA sets national standards according to statutes passed by Congress. The States implement those standards through a "State Implementation Plan" or SIP. Other than review to ensure the national standards will be met, the State is free to make the SIP however it wants. Enforcement of the SIP is then primarily done by the State unless the State isn't doing what it said it would do in the SIP, in which (rare) case the EPA would step in. In the case of motorcycles and ORVs, California needs to do whatever its approved SIP says ... nothing more.

As exhibited by the fact that the EPA has their own set of regulations that are significantly different than EURO standards. Is the air different in Europe versus the US? Is science different across the pond? Of course not. What's different is the bureaucracy. Now they clearly do some good work, and I'm not saying they don't. And, I'm not saying they were founded with a good idea or good intentions, but once in place bureaucratic principals take over. (I've lived that too.)

No, the air is not different in Europe. The point sources are, the weather is different, and the population density is far, far greater. And the air is also the same in China. Perhaps we should adopt Chinese air pollution regulations? And do you really want America to have the same laws and regulations as the rest of the world? Would that not be some sort of World Government that certain paranoid people are always afraid of?

Also, CARB is now calling itself the "ARB". Big deal, right? Well, kinda is. The reason is because the CALIFORNIA air resources board is dropping the California part because they want to take over the regulation of air pollution for the ENTIRE Western United States and are actively trying to get the neighboring states to cede their sovereignty to them on a variety of issues. This is part of the reason the Trump administration is talking about clipping the wings of California and their federal exemptions.

Oh, right, all the other states are going cede their sovereignty to California. Those black helicopters are probably also part of the conspiracy, along with Ted Cruz's father.


Some small examples of regulations coming to you. The CARB mandates that there be something like 56 different gasoline blend just for this state. (There are 58 counties.) They also demand winter and summer blends of gas, plus all gasoline sold here must be refined here. No gas importation/no free market. There have been no new refineries built in something like 50 years, because they can't due to the bureaucrats. Just like California can't import electricity because you can't insure that the source of the electricity conforms to California clean air standards.

If it's in your state's approved SIP, you have to comply with it. Now, there are other ways to get a SIP to pass EPA approval. The answer here, as with any other law you feel is stupid, is to elect a state legislature and a Governor who want to make those changes, because CARB or ARB or whatever you call it answers to them and ultimately, to the people. The fact that this hasn't happened suggests to me that the majority of people in California either like, or accept, the current system. This is the nature of democracy. If you don't have the votes and you just can't live with it, well then I guess you have to move. Personally I don't live in California but when I go down there, I kind of appreciate the work CARB has done because I can drive through LA (well, at 5 mph) and I don't see huge clouds of smog like you can see in the pictures from the 1970s. You said so yourself, "I was raised in LA during the bad old days when we couldn't play outside because the air was so bad it hurt to breathe and it made your eyes water." It's not like that now. Seems to me that what they do DOES work.

Now as to the emission testing. If the goal was truly clean air, then why not test a tailpipe, if it's clean, good to go. This is the standard in other places. In Commiefornia they really don't care about the tailpipe, they just want to make sure you have all of the factory equipment and have not modified it. Sure you have to "pass" the sniffer test, but not really. If you have all of the factory equipment and its determined to work, then you get a waiver and you pass. Of course, all of this costs money. Which is the real reason for all of this. California can not live within a budget (sound familiar?), so they dream up ways to extract more money from the public and conceal their real intent.

Sounds like California is trying to save money. As long as what they're doing complies with the SIP, it's legal. And apparently it works. Not quite sure what your complaint is. Are you suggesting they should do a full smog test?

I could go on, but I'll leave it there.

Now to OHV specifically (the passion of my youth), I'll try to be brief. The amount of pollution emitted from all OHVs is not even measurable as compared to on road vehicles, because you have to take into account engine size and miles driven, which they do not. A long multi-day off road ride might be a hundred miles. I won't count dual sporting because those vehicle have to have license plates. Then you compared a Jeep versus a Can Am OHV. However, you don't take engine displacement into account, mechanical complexity, reliability, performance, weight, etc. So I believe your comparison is inaccurate.

I'd like to see your scientific study showing that pollution from ORVs is not measurable. Engine size is irrelevant to the amount of pollution created, as anyone who has ever mowed a lawn with a malfunctioning mower knows. Miles driven? If miles driven is unimportant, then if I only drive 5000 miles a year and you drive 25,000 miles a year, you should be required to produce five times less pollution. Yee-haw, I can take all the anti-pollution stuff off my car and you can't. Great idea, try to enforce it. Then you cite mechanical complexity, reliability, performance, weight and I read that and think, "Huh?" Pollution is pollution, no matter what produces it.

True story. About 20 years ago (when 2 strokes were still super popular) CARB decided to test off road vehicle emissions to get some data because they wanted to regulate them. So, they placed monitoring stations within the Gorman OHV park outside of LA, instead of any other OHV park. The ambient air is already a little dirtier than normal because the park is just outside of the LA basin, plus it's dusty and next to the I5 corridor (lots of long haul trucking). Surprise, surprise. The air was very clean and obviously did not conform to their desires. So, they redid the test. Only this time they placed the monitoring stations ON the Interstate 5 corridor and at public bus stops in downtown LA, not IN the park. Not only that, the devices were placed 18' above ground on the up hill side of the steep grade (known as the Grape Vine). Guess what? SHOCKINGLY, the results were totally different and now justified their regulations. The only reason this became known was because of a whistle blower who was totally fed up with the lies. The reaction by the public (non OHV community) and politicians? YAWN. And, now that false data is still used by environmentalists to justify OHV pollution regulations.

If the government cheats and isn't responsive, there's a way to change that. I noticed you still don't know the difference between Communism and democracy, continuing to call it "Commiefornia" even though California unlike Communism allows you to vote for your representatives and Governor who actually control CARB. If you don't vote, you get what you deserve. And if the majority vote doesn't give you what you want, you have to live with it. It's democracy. Majority rules. Try it.

Again, I could go on, but I won't ya'll get the idea.

Anyway, Happy Easter to all. :thumbup:

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

First off, I'll try to refrain from getting overly political and stay with factual things. Secondly, I am very much an ardent environmentalist with a however. That however being it has to be practical as well as effective. It also has to be based on sound science and not pseudo-religion masquerading as environmental awareness. I was raised in LA during the bad old days when we couldn't play outside because the air was so bad it hurt to breathe and it made your eyes water. So, I lived it.

In California, motorcycles are NOT sound or emission tested. Nor are they tested in any way after sale. OHVs have a "green sticker" for registration. That program was instituted in the 1970's with the promise that you could ride on road for up to 5 miles or cross roads, so you could connect trails. Prior to this you legally couldn't. Plus, the money from the program was supposed to go into a specific fund to pay for the maintenance and EXPANSION of the OHV trail network. NONE of that happened. It would take too long to get further into it, and that doesn't even scratch the surface of the Red sticker program.

CARB and the EPA are bureaucracy first and foremost. They exist to regulate and expand their power and scope of their authority. As exhibited by the fact that the EPA has their own set of regulations that are significantly different than EURO standards. Is the air different in Europe versus the US? Is science different across the pond? Of course not. What's different is the bureaucracy. Now they clearly do some good work, and I'm not saying they don't. And, I'm not saying they were founded with a good idea or good intentions, but once in place bureaucratic principals take over. (I've lived that too.)

Also, CARB is now calling itself the "ARB". Big deal, right? Well, kinda is. The reason is because the CALIFORNIA air resources board is dropping the California part because they want to take over the regulation of air pollution for the ENTIRE Western United States and are actively trying to get the neighboring states to cede their sovereignty to them on a variety of issues. This is part of the reason the Trump administration is talking about clipping the wings of California and their federal exemptions.

Some small examples of regulations coming to you. The CARB mandates that there be something like 56 different gasoline blend just for this state. (There are 58 counties.) They also demand winter and summer blends of gas, plus all gasoline sold here must be refined here. No gas importation/no free market. There have been no new refineries built in something like 50 years, because they can't due to the bureaucrats. Just like California can't import electricity because you can't insure that the source of the electricity conforms to California clean air standards.

Now as to the emission testing. If the goal was truly clean air, then why not test a tailpipe, if it's clean, good to go. This is the standard in other places. In Commiefornia they really don't care about the tailpipe, they just want to make sure you have all of the factory equipment and have not modified it. Sure you have to "pass" the sniffer test, but not really. If you have all of the factory equipment and its determined to work, then you get a waiver and you pass. Of course, all of this costs money. Which is the real reason for all of this. California can not live within a budget (sound familiar?), so they dream up ways to extract more money from the public and conceal their real intent.

I could go on, but I'll leave it there.

Now to OHV specifically (the passion of my youth), I'll try to be brief. The amount of pollution emitted from all OHVs is not even measurable as compared to on road vehicles, because you have to take into account engine size and miles driven, which they do not. A long multi-day off road ride might be a hundred miles. I won't count dual sporting because those vehicle have to have license plates. Then you compared a Jeep versus a Can Am OHV. However, you don't take engine displacement into account, mechanical complexity, reliability, performance, weight, etc. So I believe your comparison is inaccurate.

True story. About 20 years ago (when 2 strokes were still super popular) CARB decided to test off road vehicle emissions to get some data because they wanted to regulate them. So, they placed monitoring stations within the Gorman OHV park outside of LA, instead of any other OHV park. The ambient air is already a little dirtier than normal because the park is just outside of the LA basin, plus it's dusty and next to the I5 corridor (lots of long haul trucking). Surprise, surprise. The air was very clean and obviously did not conform to their desires. So, they redid the test. Only this time they placed the monitoring stations ON the Interstate 5 corridor and at public bus stops in downtown LA, not IN the park. Not only that, the devices were placed 18' above ground on the up hill side of the steep grade (known as the Grape Vine). Guess what? SHOCKINGLY, the results were totally different and now justified their regulations. The only reason this became known was because of a whistle blower who was totally fed up with the lies. The reaction by the public (non OHV community) and politicians? YAWN. And, now that false data is still used by environmentalists to justify OHV pollution regulations.

Again, I could go on, but I won't ya'll get the idea.

Anyway, Happy Easter to all. :thumbup:

Can you tell me if you can get fined for farting or burping in public?

[WisconsinDavid]

I'm glad that I don't live in a pure democracy, but a Democratic/Republic form of government, with a Constitution and Bill of Rights. Pure democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding who will be eaten for dinner. That's what I was saying before. Our society is shifting, some for the good and some for the bad. But the state is starting to decide what is best for you and legislating what is best for you. Try buying a large soda in New York City today. That has been banned, because too much soft drink has now decided to be bad for you. The government has stepped in to protect you from it and you from yourself. The time may come when, because those in the motorsports are relatively few in number comparitively, it is decided that cycles and such are too dangerous for the roadways - or need to have less power/speed or fill in the blank, or everything must have four wheels, etc. I live in a town where BLUE ZONES are working to make everything healthier, a noble goal... but a small unelected group of people now defines healthier, have been given power and funding, and are engineering groups/people/business to push toward their goals. All of this kind of thing is fine, when you agree with the goal ... but what about when you don't and find you have become the lamb looking at the wolves? With all the changes, we need to be careful and need to keep the founding documents of the country in view, to keep this American experiment from floundering. To be sure, it is a tightrope to walk. I'm sure on this board we have different experiences, strengths and political views... so I don't belittle but listen and try to learn. I encourage others to do the same. Do I like loud pipes. No! Do I think everyone should wear a helmet? Yes, in my way of thinking only a fool doesn't. But that is me. Do I think people have a right to be foolish? Yes. My ideas are ridiculous, Pete? Perhaps, in your view. But I have a right to my thoughts ... just as you do to yours. And, I won't call your views ridiculous. Just a few things to at least ponder as we look toward the future... and days beyond us that our kids/grandkids will know. (I'm 60) What we do now (and allow to be changed now), does impact the generations beyond us (and the sport beyond us). Peace. Have a great week everyone.

[UtahPete]

I'm glad that I don't live in a pure democracy, but a Democratic/Republic form of government, with a Constitution and Bill of Rights. Pure democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding who will be eaten for dinner. That's what I was saying before. Our society is shifting, some for the good and some for the bad. But the state is starting to decide what is best for you and legislating what is best for you. Try buying a large soda in New York City today. That has been banned, because too much soft drink has now decided to be bad for you. The government has stepped in to protect you from it and you from yourself. The time may come when, because those in the motorsports are relatively few in number comparitively, it is decided that cycles and such are too dangerous for the roadways - or need to have less power/speed or fill in the blank, or everything must have four wheels, etc. I live in a town where BLUE ZONES are working to make everything healthier, a noble goal... but a small unelected group of people now defines healthier, have been given power and funding, and are engineering groups/people/business to push toward their goals. All of this kind of thing is fine, when you agree with the goal ... but what about when you don't and find you have become the lamb looking at the wolves? With all the changes, we need to be careful and need to keep the founding documents of the country in view, to keep this American experiment from floundering. To be sure, it is a tightrope to walk. I'm sure on this board we have different experiences, strengths and political views... so I don't belittle but listen and try to learn. I encourage others to do the same. Do I like loud pipes. No! Do I think everyone should wear a helmet? Yes, in my way of thinking only a fool doesn't. But that is me. Do I think people have a right to be foolish? Yes. My ideas are ridiculous, Pete? Perhaps, in your view. But I have a right to my thoughts ... just as you do to yours. And, I won't call your views ridiculous. Just a few things to at least ponder as we look toward the future... and days beyond us that our kids/grandkids will know. (I'm 60) What we do now (and allow to be changed now), does impact the generations beyond us (and the sport beyond us). Peace. Have a great week everyone.

Well said, David. And, I share your concerns and viewpoint actually.

[007james]

I love Loud Pipes, and I ride a Harley Heritage with after market loud Pipes, that make old Ladies faint, old men riding their Ride on Lawn Mowers with 5 H.P. Briggs & Stratton engines dream, and imagine them selves on my Harley, and me mowing their lawns! They all wave to me before the old Ladies faint! Young Gals gawk and smile, and give me the Thumbs up when I go by, and young Guys wave and High Five each other! But that’s only when I ride through the Hoods to terrorize the Natives! The REAL reason I love loud Pipes, is because 95% of the time I ride my Harley, on the Blue Ridge Parkway, in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia. There are hundreds of Deer and wild Turkeys all over the area, and in the Fall, during rutting season, the Deer are crossing the Parkways, and way too many are laying dead beside the road after being hit. Loud Pipes warns both Deer and Turkeys, and when on my Harley, I at least have a better chance of not hitting them. I also ride my Spyder RT Limited, which is quiet , and Deer or Turkeys never hear me coming until I get right up to them, then its too late if I don’t react in time. I am now 77, so my reaction time is in slow motion!! I did hit a Deer in Nov. 2016 with my Spyder, and had $1300 damage on my Spyder, and broke both of the Deer’s back legs running over them, after he jumped out in front of me. I never even seen him until after I hit him, and I took the ditch! Had I had my Harley with loud pipes, that would never have happened. I lived in Laguna Beach, California, in the same house for 31 years, from 1979 thru 2010, and
never was allowed loud pipes any where in California, and I never needed them, and was OK with stock pipes on my Many motorcycles I owned during that time, because I wasn’t dodging Deer, but.........it would have still been fun to terrorize the Natives once in awhile, if I would have had a Harley there, but I always had quiet Metrics. So, cutting to the chase, one size never fits all. It depends on where we live, our age, gender, politics, etc. My best Two days in California were, the first day I drove in to Laguna Beach to my new house, and the last day I was there, when I looked at California in my rear view mirror when I crossed in to the Arizona border Jan. 1, 2011! I have never been back since. Looking at California now, I am glad I was able to escape! It was a 31 year challenge surviving there. Virginia and California are like different planets. I always kept a Jeep, A Pick Up, and several cars, plus 2-3 motorcycles, so wasted a lot of money on yearly Smog checks, etc.
007James



I'm glad that I don't live in a pure democracy, but a Democratic/Republic form of government, with a Constitution and Bill of Rights. Pure democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding who will be eaten for dinner. That's what I was saying before. Our society is shifting, some for the good and some for the bad. But the state is starting to decide what is best for you and legislating what is best for you. Try buying a large soda in New York City today. That has been banned, because too much soft drink has now decided to be bad for you. The government has stepped in to protect you from it and you from yourself. The time may come when, because those in the motorsports are relatively few in number comparitively, it is decided that cycles and such are too dangerous for the roadways - or need to have less power/speed or fill in the blank, or everything must have four wheels, etc. I live in a town where BLUE ZONES are working to make everything healthier, a noble goal... but a small unelected group of people now defines healthier, have been given power and funding, and are engineering groups/people/business to push toward their goals. All of this kind of thing is fine, when you agree with the goal ... but what about when you don't and find you have become the lamb looking at the wolves? With all the changes, we need to be careful and need to keep the founding documents of the country in view, to keep this American experiment from floundering. To be sure, it is a tightrope to walk. I'm sure on this board we have different experiences, strengths and political views... so I don't belittle but listen and try to learn. I encourage others to do the same. Do I like loud pipes. No! Do I think everyone should wear a helmet? Yes, in my way of thinking only a fool doesn't. But that is me. Do I think people have a right to be foolish? Yes. My ideas are ridiculous, Pete? Perhaps, in your view. But I have a right to my thoughts ... just as you do to yours. And, I won't call your views ridiculous. Just a few things to at least ponder as we look toward the future... and days beyond us that our kids/grandkids will know. (I'm 60) What we do now (and allow to be changed now), does impact the generations beyond us (and the sport beyond us). Peace. Have a great week everyone.

[johnsimion]

I'm glad that I don't live in a pure democracy, but a Democratic/Republic form of government, with a Constitution and Bill of Rights. Pure democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding who will be eaten for dinner. That's what I was saying before. Our society is shifting, some for the good and some for the bad. But the state is starting to decide what is best for you and legislating what is best for you. Try buying a large soda in New York City today. That has been banned, because too much soft drink has now decided to be bad for you. The government has stepped in to protect you from it and you from yourself. The time may come when, because those in the motorsports are relatively few in number comparitively, it is decided that cycles and such are too dangerous for the roadways - or need to have less power/speed or fill in the blank, or everything must have four wheels, etc. I live in a town where BLUE ZONES are working to make everything healthier, a noble goal... but a small unelected group of people now defines healthier, have been given power and funding, and are engineering groups/people/business to push toward their goals. All of this kind of thing is fine, when you agree with the goal ... but what about when you don't and find you have become the lamb looking at the wolves? With all the changes, we need to be careful and need to keep the founding documents of the country in view, to keep this American experiment from floundering. To be sure, it is a tightrope to walk. I'm sure on this board we have different experiences, strengths and political views... so I don't belittle but listen and try to learn. I encourage others to do the same. Do I like loud pipes. No! Do I think everyone should wear a helmet? Yes, in my way of thinking only a fool doesn't. But that is me. Do I think people have a right to be foolish? Yes. My ideas are ridiculous, Pete? Perhaps, in your view. But I have a right to my thoughts ... just as you do to yours. And, I won't call your views ridiculous. Just a few things to at least ponder as we look toward the future... and days beyond us that our kids/grandkids will know. (I'm 60) What we do now (and allow to be changed now), does impact the generations beyond us (and the sport beyond us). Peace. Have a great week everyone.

Mostly I would agree. You refer to "a small unelected group of people now defines healthier, have been given power and funding." Who gave them power and funding? Answer, your elected representatives. IMO the main problem here is that our elected representatives aren't doing their job. They seem to be more concerned with getting re-elected than with representing. I can't think of any other reason, e.g., why they don't pass legislation to ban robocalls. I mean, surely banning robocalls is something everyone could agree on? But it's also complicated. Everyone wants freedom. The problem is that one person's freedom may infringe on someone else's freedom. My suburban neighbor is not free to put a shoot his guns in his backyard because that would infringe on my own quiet use of my property. It gets more complicated. Your freedom should not cost me money. Seemingly helmet laws are a clear infringement of freedom. But it's not that simple. Riders who don't wear helmets statistically suffer worse injuries in accidents. This costs more money for medical bills. Medical bills cost insurance companies money. If insurance companies pay out more money, they raise the rates for all of us. So in some sense helmet laws prevent riders from infringing on OUR right not to pay more for medical insurance. For pollution, there is at least some cost to society in terms of whether we want to breathe smog and suffer personal health issues. And there is the issue of whether and how much Source X contributes to the pollution. These questions are supposed to be answered by the Legislature, but they turn them over to the "unelected people" and whose fault is that? Our own - we elected these people.

[ARtraveler]

A moderators point of view:

A little more political than I like...but so far...everybody is keeping it calm. :bowdown:

If this stays on an even keel, maybe a model for future discussions. :dontknow:

If the black triangles start to fly or the name calling begins...then its done.

[WisconsinDavid]

You are so right. Those are the concerns that I see, too. Unelected people, but embraced to an extent by our local officials and provided some taxpayer funding. Also some of the funding is brought in from outside of the area, with the goal of creating a powerful group that seeks to create social and behavioral change. The change is made by slowly creating groups of people that either comply or ostracise those not in compliance. It is a strange mix indeed, a noble goal in health improvement but at the same time very concerning in practice. That was also my point with the entire motorcycle industry. If non-use of helmets costs people money and needs to be required ... it is not a distant leap that motorcycles are dangerous and cost more health dollars ... so the attitude to curb or eliminate them may be embraced as time goes forward. It is important for those on 2 or 3 wheels to support each other. Agreed though, it is a very complex balancing act. It is above my pay-grade. Done being political... back to spring out there! :)

[WisconsinDavid]

Thanks, Moderator :)

[Wildrice]

You probably do not live close to a neighbor who owns a super loud HD and loves to fire it up at 4:30 in the morning. The main reason I keep hearing is the need for other drivers to hear you when riding.

That is the exact reason I reinstalled my CAT after removing the CAT bypass pipe. We are allowed to do whatever we want as long as it doesn't interfere with other peoples lives. If loud pipes save lives it's at the expense of someone else's comfort zone. I've purchased used Harleys with a gutted out Screamin Eagles mufflers..I replaced the gutted version with the standard Screamin Eagle muffler & the low end torque re-appeared plus the neighbor was happy again... Extremely loud pipes scare some people into an instant lane change without consideration of what vehicle may be in their blind spot.

[KX5062]

See red responses below. Red, you know, as in "Commiefornia." LOL

Since you're an attorney, I'll write slowly. JOKE!!!! Just kidding. Just like the Commiefornia reference is a joke. Since I've been a life-long resident I'm entitled to criticize my state or to poke fun at it. The nick-name of Commiefornia is older than I am and obviously you're not getting it. Sorry. You are also clearly uninformed about the goings on in the Land of Fruits and Nuts (another sarcastic reference). You are also not understanding my message (you say I'm wrong and I say you're wrong) and since it's getting political, I'm out. Peace.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

I love Loud Pipes, and I ride a Harley Heritage with after market loud Pipes, ...

Loud Pipes warns both Deer and Turkeys, and when on my Harley, I at least have a better chance of not hitting them. I also ride my Spyder RT Limited, which is quiet , and Deer or Turkeys never hear me coming until I get right up to them, then its too late if I don’t react in time. I am now 77, so my reaction time is in slow motion!! I did hit a Deer in Nov. 2016 with my Spyder, and had $1300 damage on my Spyder, and broke both of the Deer’s back legs running over them, after he jumped out in front of me. I never even seen him until after I hit him, and I took the ditch! Had I had my Harley with loud pipes, that would never have happened.
What I've never quite figured is this. Which end of the Harley is most often involved in an accident? The front end, right? From which end is the loud pipe noise coming from? The rear, right? And it comes out in a tight sound pressure cone because of the tailpipe design. So, since almost all the noise is projected rearward, and most all of the accident causes are well in front, how much of the loud pipe noise really travels forward to warn critters?

The value of loud pipes is grossly oversold, IMO, and used mostly to justify a desire to be noticed and seen as macho.

[UtahPete]

What I've never quite figured is this. Which end of the Harley is most often involved in an accident? The front end, right? From which end is the loud pipe noise coming from? The rear, right? And it comes out in a tight sound pressure cone because of the tailpipe design. So, since almost all the noise is projected rearward, and most all of the accident causes are well in front, how much of the loud pipe noise really travels forward to warn critters?

The value of loud pipes is grossly oversold, IMO, and used mostly to justify a desire to be noticed and seen as macho.

This logic will be no doubt lost on the obnoxious organ donor crowd who will use any excuse to justify their selfish, antisocial behavior.

[UtahPete]

Can you tell me if you can get fined for farting or burping in public?

No, I can't. But you might.

[Wahrsuul]

What I've never quite figured is this. Which end of the Harley is most often involved in an accident? The front end, right? From which end is the loud pipe noise coming from? The rear, right? And it comes out in a tight sound pressure cone because of the tailpipe design. So, since almost all the noise is projected rearward, and most all of the accident causes are well in front, how much of the loud pipe noise really travels forward to warn critters?

The value of loud pipes is grossly oversold, IMO, and used mostly to justify a desire to be noticed and seen as macho.

I've made this argument as few times, but it's wasted on those who want some justification for what they wanted to do anyway.

[BoilerAnimal]

Your freedom should not cost me money. Seemingly helmet laws are a clear infringement of freedom. But it's not that simple. Riders who don't wear helmets statistically suffer worse injuries in accidents. This costs more money for medical bills. Medical bills cost insurance companies money. If insurance companies pay out more money, they raise the rates for all of us. So in some sense helmet laws prevent riders from infringing on OUR right not to pay more for medical insurance.

Another way not wearing a helmet can affect the population at large is through increased taxes due to a severely injured rider becoming dependent on Medicaid for long term care. So we get hit twice for someone's refusal to be "burdened" with refusing to wear a helmet.

[007james]

What I've never quite figured is this. Which end of the Harley is most often involved in an accident? The front end, right? From which end is the loud pipe noise coming from? The rear, right? And it comes out in a tight sound pressure cone because of the tailpipe design. So, since almost all the noise is projected rearward, and most all of the accident causes are well in front, how much of the loud pipe noise really travels forward to warn critters?

The value of loud pipes is grossly oversold, IMO, and used mostly to justify a desire to be noticed and seen as macho.

My Harley is as loud by the front or rear , and can be heard a Block away, so your argument is pure conjecture. My wife can hear me coming home from 1/4 miles away, so can Deer. You have either a blind spot, or your ears hear backwards. ��

[UtahPete]

My Harley is as loud by the front or rear , and can be heard a Block away, so your argument is pure conjecture. My wife can hear me coming home from 1/4 miles away, so can Deer. You have either a blind spot, or your ears hear backwards. ��

B.S. :yikes:

[KX5062]

And, my Harley is bone stock. (2018 Heritage Classic) :2thumbs:

[wyliec]

My Harley is as loud by the front or rear , and can be heard a Block away, so your argument is pure conjecture. My wife can hear me coming home from 1/4 miles away, so can Deer. You have either a blind spot, or your ears hear backwards. ��

"Sound waves in air vibrate parallel to the direction that the sound wave moves." All that means is, if your exhaust is pointed back (like it typically is), most of the sound you hear (while the bike is in motion) will be behind you. That is not to say someone in front won't hear it; it's just not as loud.

I did check my ears in the mirror, and I think they are on correctly.

[007james]

"Sound waves in air vibrate parallel to the direction that the sound wave moves." All that means is, if your exhaust is pointed back (like it typically is), most of the sound you hear (while the bike is in motion) will be behind you. That is not to say someone in front won't hear it; it's just not as loud.

I did check my ears in the mirror, and I think they are on correctly.

If you were a Deer in the Blue Ridge Mountains and were thinking about crossing the road, my Harley would be heard 10 times better than my Spyder from 1/4 mile away, front or rear. Trees, Mountains, Boulders, all effect sound , depending on echos, Deflection, absorption, etc,. Your Science example is not any more convincing than if we were in an elevator together with 10 other people and I farted out loud, not a slider ,and that only those behind me would try to blame me as I kept pointing at you! 😂 When you fire a Shot Gun, is the sound louder at the Butt, or the front discharge of the Barrel as the Bullet exits ? If you were a Deer standing 1/4 away, would you care ? The Deer would run from the loudest noise, front or rear of the shot. My Harley would be a 12 Gauge Shot Gun while my Spyder would be a 22 Short.

[UtahPete]

If you were a Deer in the Blue Ridge Mountains and were thinking about crossing the road, my Harley would be heard 10 times better than my Spyder from 1/4 mile away, front or rear. Trees, Mountains, Boulders, all effect sound , depending on echos, Deflection, absorption, etc,. Your Science example is not any more convincing than if we were in an elevator together with 10 other people and I farted out loud, not a slider ,and that only those behind me would try to blame me as I kept pointing at you! �� When you fire a Shot Gun, is the sound louder at the Butt, or the front discharge of the Barrel as the Bullet exits ? If you were a Deer standing 1/4 away, would you care ? The Deer would run from the loudest noise, front or rear of the shot. My Harley would be a 12 Gauge Shot Gun while my Spyder would be a 22 Short.

In my opinion, this sort of dangerous nonsense doesn't belong here. Even if it is said in jest. nojoke

[ARtraveler]

How many of you think that one person is doing his best to mess up this discussion?

Is it time to close this down, or to put someone on vacation for a week or so????

You can PM me.

[Gwolf]

If you were a Deer in the Blue Ridge Mountains and were thinking about crossing the road, my Harley would be heard 10 times better than my Spyder from 1/4 mile away, front or rear. Trees, Mountains, Boulders, all effect sound , depending on echos, Deflection, absorption, etc,. Your Science example is not any more convincing than if we were in an elevator together with 10 other people and I farted out loud, not a slider ,and that only those behind me would try to blame me as I kept pointing at you! 😂 When you fire a Shot Gun, is the sound louder at the Butt, or the front discharge of the Barrel as the Bullet exits ? If you were a Deer standing 1/4 away, would you care ? The Deer would run from the loudest noise, front or rear of the shot. My Harley would be a 12 Gauge Shot Gun while my Spyder would be a 22 Short.



Deer all over the place here where I live. I rode a Harley for 25 years before I bought the Spyder. Yeah, maybe the deer can hear the Harley better, but all it seems to do is make them run back and forth across the road in front of you, because it scares them and they can't make up their minds which way they want to go. If there is half a dozen deer in a herd crossing the road, you need to almost stop, because the ones that didn't get across already are going to be running in front of you and trying to stay with the rest of the herd. When I was working shift work I hit 4 deer at different times with my old truck that had dual glass packs on it.

These are pictures from the lane 150 feet in front of my house.

http://www.tanwater.com/pics/deer-turkey-yard-04.JPG

http://www.tanwater.com/pics/deer%20-005.JPG

http://www.tanwater.com/pics/deer-yard-01.JPG

[LeftCoast]

The only thing for sure is that Deer are idiots when it comes to anything other than a predator. They can't judge vehicle speed and movement worth a damn and will try to stay with the herd even if it means jumping in front of the car. As witnessed by me driving home from college with a doe spread across the grill of my car outside Steamboat Springs Colo.

They will most likely hear the horn but I'm not sure that makes them do anything rational as far as what a human would do in response to it.

[johnsimion]

How many of you think that one person is doing his best to mess up this discussion?

Is it time to close this down, or to put someone on vacation for a week or so????

You can PM me.

Well, it IS pretty far off topic (the original topic was pollution, now it's all about Harley noise) but it DID veer away from political. I agree about the one-line retorts, but the subject (whether it be pollution or Harley noise) is still interesting enough that I'd hate to see the whole thread shut down. I say, "Continue the conversation but keep it civil."

[007james]

Well, it IS pretty far off topic (the original topic was pollution, now it's all about Harley noise) but it DID veer away from political. I agree about the one-line retorts, but the subject (whether it be pollution or Harley noise) is still interesting enough that I'd hate to see the whole thread shut down. I say, "Continue the conversation but keep it civil."

The solution to pollution is dilution. Harley Riders biggest Joys are loud Noise! They know how to steer to miss the Deer.

[ARtraveler]

We are trying our best NOT to close this down. See post #46. A couple have went out of their way to try to stir things up. So far we are still watching. And....you picked up on my "subtle" caution. :roflblack:

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Here's a good discussion about avoiding deer. Unfortunately, in the first video the loud exhaust of the Honda V-twin didn't keep him from hitting one.

https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/not-tonight-deer-tips-to-avoid-hitting-a-deer-on-your-motorcycle

[007james]

Here's a good discussion about avoiding deer. Unfortunately, in the first video the loud exhaust of the Honda V-twin didn't keep him from hitting one.

https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/not-tonight-deer-tips-to-avoid-hitting-a-deer-on-your-motorcycle

Real scary videos! No doubt, there is is no time to react when they jump out in front of you from seemingly no where. That Honda was real quiet, as compared to my Harley. But Deer seem to be suicidal. I always expect more to follow after the first one crosses. Turkeys are worse than Deer when they jump out in front of you. I almost dumped my Harley a couple of times when I only jammed the rear brakes and slid side ways before recovering. The Speed Limit on the Blue Ridge Parkway is 45 MPH Max., so does make it easier to look for Deer or other creatures. Squirrels are the worst, but they are too small to dump you. But truthfully , when riding either my Harley or Spyder on the Country roads in Virginia , Deer are my greatest concern to watch out for. But I feel much more alert with loud pipes! They keep me awake , and I am not sitting in front or in back of the Pipes, but safe on top! So loud pipes keep me alert even if Deer don’t hear hear them.

[Wahrsuul]

Aaaaand some people don't take subtle hints very well. I think I'm done here. I have more to say on the subject, but... seems pointless.

[LeftCoast]

So FWIW in my opinion, and this is a general observation and directed at no one, is its rare when someone’s mind actually gets changed about a topic on a message board unless there is data and it proves something unequivocally one way or the other, and even then people will dig in. Mods are fine with a difference of opinion if it’s expressed respectfully.

We’re even more fine when folks agree to disagree and leave it at that. :thumbup:

[007james]

So FWIW in my opinion, and this is a general observation and directed at no one, is its rare when someone’s mind actually gets changed about a topic on a message board unless there is data and it proves something unequivocally one way or the other, and even then people will dig in. Mods are fine with a difference of opinion if it’s expressed respectfully.

We’re even more fine when folks agree to disagree and leave it at that. :thumbup:

Maybe ending the Loud Pipe discussion on Neutral ground might satisfy all sides and end the argument. Deer are not the only lives saved by loud pipes.
https://youtu.be/jM77vjnEaXw

[JAS POWER]

Read this on an Indian Forum. HD is now enforcing EPA Laws in regards to tampering with emissions on bikes still under warranty. A letter was sent out to CA. dealers regarding this. Owners that go in for service are getting their warranties voided if engine management systems are tampered with. Carb rules are much stricter than the rest of the USA. :thumbup: Tom :spyder:

I went to a Factory Honda engines service school I would say about 10 years ago for my dealership. They were talking about all the EPA stuff that is on their engines from restrictor caps on carburetors to just the EPA label that is on the engine. Honda mentioned it is the dealers responsibility to make sure it stays all in tact, and not tampered with. As a dealer I could get heavily fined from the EPA. Even if the EPA sticker is missing from an engine I am supposed to replace it. If I had visit from the EPA and I had units in missing the tag that had been already worked on I could be be fined.

I must have a 1/2 dozen or more tamper proof carburetor adjustment tools in my box now. These tools are sold all over Ebay / Amazon (Online in general). As a dealer I am not allowed to sell these tools to anyone. I could be subject to I believe up to a $5000.00 dollar fine. I can not tell you how many letters I have received from different OEM companies that I am an authorized dealer for regarding the sale of these tools, and the fines that could result from me selling them to the public. I can not tell you how many irritated customers walk in my dealership mad that I won't sell them a tool to adjust their carburetor. To me its not worth the risk of the fine.

I could easily see Harley starting to clamp down in California where they are the strictest with the air quality (CARB). I am sure CARB people are working with a lot of OEM motorcycle, power equipment manufactures to come up with a way to keep the emission systems in check, and not tampered with.

I have been in business a long time, I have seen many changes in emission advancements being implicated. In my opinion the end result from the EPA is that they don't want anyone not trained working on engines anymore, and that is the ultimate goal until they rid us of the evil combustion engine.

An engine according to the EPA puts out an amount of emissions that the EPA tested and approved prior to that engine being able to be sold to the public. When people tamper with these engines the amount of pollution coming from them can change, and is no longer what the EPA approved prior to that engine being able to be sold to the public.

Consumers don't always understand what dealers are responsible for. I hear a lot of customers not happy that they can't do a simple adjustment on their carburetor anymore, as they could always do it in the past. I don't agree completely with all this EPA stuff, but it is what it is I have to do what the EPA wants as a dealership.

I think the biggest take away from limiting people from fixing, modifying, or whatever you want to call it, is the fact it limits creativity. I see tuning an engine, or building a custom vehicle in anyway as a form of art. I myself can not paint or draw worth a darn, but I can surly tune an engine, and that is music to my ears :yes:

[2dogs]

Back in the 90's I built a 383 stroker out of a 350 for my 78 vet. 10 to 1 compression with a light cam so it would satisfy smog requirements at the time. It has some where between 383 and 400 HP. Today after it comes home from the smog shop (it still passes smog with some adjustments) I'm probably chugging along closer to 383 hp at 16 mpg. Each time it's smogged I have to spend a hour or so at home readjusting the timing and carb to reclaim my performance and fuel millage. Properly tuned I get 19/20 mpg. On the other hand when I take my newer diesel truck in for smog I have to un-chip it a week or so before I take it in. The smog tech is an upfront and honest guy and I've been going to the same smog shop for a long time. These days there's little to be done other than a visual and a tailpipe test. The days of spending time with a spring kit, a timing light, vacuum gage and tach balancing out an engine are over. Dam, my wife's new Cherokee with the small hemi will leave my vet in the dust any day. She only gets 20 mpg also. Something tells me that if your dumping exhaust out at 16 mpg you're creating more pollution than if you were getting 20 mpg, but I guess carb doesn't see it that way.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Something tells me that if your dumping exhaust out at 16 mpg you're creating more pollution than if you were getting 20 mpg, but I guess carb doesn't see it that way.
Simple logic would say you're right, but like everything in life, nothing is simple. I'm no smog or chemical expert, but if CO2 and H2O were the only products of combustion we probably wouldn't have a pollution problem at all, except maybe with regard to amount of CO2 being dumped. But because of all the chemicals in the air and fuel the combustion process can get pretty complicated and changes in factors such as compression ratio and fuel to air mixture can change the output significantly. So it's all a balancing act. Remember back in the late 60's and early 70's? MPG was as low as 7 to 8 mpg for ordinary big boat cars. With the technology and understanding at that time excess fuel consumption actually reduced some recognized pollutant output levels. Higher mpg levels may result in higher toxic chemical levels while reducing CO2 and H2O.

I suspect no one yet today knows exactly what all chemicals released into the atmosphere have what kind of adverse impact on plants, animals, and humans. As that understanding evolves so does the target for emissions.

[finsfanscott]

Something tells me that if your dumping exhaust out at 16 mpg you're creating more pollution than if you were getting 20 mpg, but I guess carb doesn't see it that way.

There are 3 main pollutants that the EPA measures. CO, CO2 and NOx. For gasoline engines, the most difficult one to reduce is the NOx. Air is mainly Nitrogen and Oxygen. When you burn (oxidize) fuel in a closed system, you get very high temperatures and pressures. That's what moves the cylinders. At these high temps/pressures part of the Nitrogen (normally inert or unreactive) combines with the Oxygen to produce NOx (smog). In the past, the limits were high enough for NOx that we could comply with a "lean burn" engines, a good example (if anyone remembers) is the Honda CVCC engine.

Peak engine performance (power and fuel consumption) are optimized with about 2% excess O2 in the exhaust. This means you put (a little) excess air in the cylinder to ensure all the fuel is burned. In 2dogs' example of readjusting timing and carb probably gets him to that 2% O2 level. But as we know, today's emissions controlled engines all have catalysts. Because O2 is way more reactive than the NOx that we are trying to control, all the O2 has to be out of the exhaust before it gets to the catalyst. So today's engines are set to run slightly rich, using a little more fuel than needed to ensure all the O2 is consumed. This produces a "dirtier" exhaust with more NOx that the catalyst can now clean up. This is why today's engines have O2 sensors so they can automatically vary the air fuel ratio (by varying the the amount, timing, and sometimes even the pressure of fuel injection) and the ignition timing to ensure there is almost no O2 in the exhaust. So when you remove your catalyst and don't adjust timing or air fuel ratio, you really won't get much improvement. While I don't know if this is true, but some of the companies offering to re-map your computer could be altered to allow the engine to run slightly leaner and get more power, but that would be illegal in an on road vehicle.

Hope this helps understand some of the dynamics involved and how sometimes using more fuel can result in cleaner exhaust.

[LeftCoast]

thanks, now all my high school and college chem class nightmares are reawakening. And no, I did not do well in my chem classes. :shocked:

Nice explanation though! :bowdown:

[2dogs]

My chem class in high school was to say the least, a total waste of the teacher's time. I dropped chem class and took typing in the hopes of getting a date with one or two of the girls in that class. Little did I know typing would become a major asset in my future. Possibly the most useful class in HS. My son gave me his left over chem books from his college years which came in useful when I had to take some hazmat classes. I have see explosive, or hazardous material placards and I'd look up the number in my handy dandy reference book to find out what it was. That was the sum total of my interest in chemistry. I think I'm getting what finsfanscott is talking about. I've noticed the tail pipes on my wife's jeep are black looking and the tail pipes on my vet are a light gray color. My tail pipes are much cleaner looking than hers. Thanks to IdahoMtnSpyder and finsfanscott for the insight into info on engine combustion chemistry. Thanks guys.

[Gwolf]

Simple logic would say you're right, but like everything in life, nothing is simple. I'm no smog or chemical expert, but if CO2 and H2O were the only products of combustion we probably wouldn't have a pollution problem at all, except maybe with regard to amount of CO2 being dumped. But because of all the chemicals in the air and fuel the combustion process can get pretty complicated and changes in factors such as compression ratio and fuel to air mixture can change the output significantly. So it's all a balancing act. Remember back in the late 60's and early 70's? MPG was as low as 7 to 8 mpg for ordinary big boat cars. With the technology and understanding at that time excess fuel consumption actually reduced some recognized pollutant output levels. Higher mpg levels may result in higher toxic chemical levels while reducing CO2 and H2O.

I suspect no one yet today knows exactly what all chemicals released into the atmosphere have what kind of adverse impact on plants, animals, and humans. As that understanding evolves so does the target for emissions.

So maybe Fred Flintstone's car did kill off all the dinosaurs?

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

So maybe Fred Flintstone's car did kill off all the dinosaurs?
Probably all the dust from his feet accelerating and braking!! :roflblack: