NOT TO BE POLITICAL, BUT I REALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

with the protest/riot in palestine about the new embassy location, what do the protesters hope to gain? fire, throwing rocks and other
such things what is there to gain and why bring little little children?

[loisk]

This post just has to get political - I'm not about to point out the obvious, but merely comment that this is not a simple issue, nor is the us embassy relocation just a building move.

[vided]

161174

[Bob Denman]

Al…
Ticking Time Bomb: remove the thread! nojoke

[BoilerAnimal]

History is rife with examples of groups and/or whole societies that have been marginalized or regulated to the sidelines who feel that their only option is to rebel or fight back, sometimes in ways that we question as having any semblance of value, let alone common sense.

Oftentimes, years of struggle that yield little or no results lead to desperate and extreme actions. When the struggle seems to become an exercise in futility, the actions become more frequent and any injuries suffered become a justification for more extreme actions in the future.

If there is no resolution to the issue, the situation can devolve to become volatile enough to cause others to join in and utter chaos can ensue.

I believe that is pretty much the situation that has come about between the Palestinians and the rest of the world, especially Israel.

To us, their actions make absolutely no sense. To them, it is a matter akin to our Revolution.

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

I'm not asking the political views or reasons but what do these people hope to accomplish? do they believe the other side will listen
in any way when met with violence? i don't care about the political views but the news said babies are there, why would you bring your baby with you, what will that accomplish?

[loisk]

You cannot view this issue without looking at international politics. You can say it, but it is impossible.

Possibly they didn't expect live fire...at them

So much I would like to say ...

[Bob Denman]

161175

[Tazzel]

To understand it you would have to go way back into history and even then it depends on which side of the fence your on

[BajaRon]

with the protest/riot in palestine about the new embassy location, what do the protesters hope to gain? fire, throwing rocks and other
such things what is there to gain and why bring little little children?

Blind hatred bred from infancy. It has popped up in many if not all cultures in one form or another. Few have taken it to this level, however. Yet it has been coming from this same source for over 1,000 years.

With this kind of consistency and longevity. It's difficult to hope that it will be resolved anytime soon.

Politics is an outgrowth of the culture. And the culture is simply religion externalized.

[RinconRyder]

History is rife with examples of groups and/or whole societies that have been marginalized or regulated to the sidelines who feel that their only option is to rebel or fight back, sometimes in ways that we question as having any semblance of value, let alone common sense.

Oftentimes, years of struggle that yield little or no results lead to desperate and extreme actions. When the struggle seems to become an exercise in futility, the actions become more frequent and any injuries suffered become a justification for more extreme actions in the future.

If there is no resolution to the issue, the situation can devolve to become volatile enough to cause others to join in and utter chaos can ensue.

I believe that is pretty much the situation that has come about between the Palestinians and the rest of the world, especially Israel.

To us, their actions make absolutely no sense. To them, it is a matter akin to our Revolution.

Very concise explanation!

[BajaRon]

To us, their actions make absolutely no sense. To them, it is a matter akin to our Revolution.

It may seem so to 'them'. But in our revolution we did not seek to destroy the British nation. Nor did we chant, 'Death to all Englishmen'.

According to their own, oft declared goals. These people are not seeking freedom as their primary purpose. But the extinguishment of every Jew worldwide. More akin to Hitler's 'Revolution' than ours, I'd say.

In any case. It is a very sad and unnecessary situation. If things go well with the North Korean's and they decide to join the world in peace. The Palestinians may want to take note. But does anyone expect that they will?

It's hard to negotiate with a group of people who's primary and unwavering goal is your extinction... Once this is understood. I think their actions become much more understandable.

[UtahPete]

with the protest/riot in palestine about the new embassy location, what do the protesters hope to gain? fire, throwing rocks and other
such things what is there to gain and why bring little little children?
It's a good question, actually. Difficult to understand from our narrow perspective here in the US. Maybe look to our civil rights protests of the 60s and many other instances of people risking their lives for a cause. Sometimes, their situation seems to be so hopeless, and their future so bleak, they feel they have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

The question in my mind is: why do Israelis feel so threatened by unarmed (except by rocks) protesters they feel obliged and entitled to kill them? But, that would be political (i.e. governmental) as I doubt any of the Israeli soldiers are firing on protesters on their own initiative.

[UtahPete]

According to their own, oft declared goals. These people are not seeking freedom as their primary purpose. But the extinguishment of every Jew worldwide. More akin to Hitler's 'Revolution' than ours, I'd say. It's hard to negotiate with a group of people who's primary and unwavering goal is your extinction... Once this is understood. I think their actions become much more understandable.
With all due respect, your response is to the politics of the situation. OP was asking, from a human standpoint, what are these people hoping to accomplish and why bring infants to the fray?

[Bob Denman]

For the "Photo Opps" that inevitably ensue...
They don't value Life in the same way that we do... nojoke

[ARtraveler]

The conflict goes back over 5,000 years. We watched Exodus last night so that Linda could put together some of the underlying things. Three nations fighting over the same land that they all believe was given to them by their God. The battle continues to go on. According to the scriptures, the place will be in turmoil until the end.

Today, the technology just makes the photo ops that much easier to accomplish. My only comment--they need to leave the children at home.

Not planning any visits to the area in the foreseeable future. http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbup.gif (http://javascript<strong></strong>:void(0))

[BajaRon]

With all due respect, your response is to the politics of the situation. OP was asking, from a human standpoint, what are these people hoping to accomplish and why bring infants to the fray?

As I said. Politics are the natural outcome of a particular society. And any society is the natural outcome of their religion. When your religion commands you to kill a certain group of people by any means possible. You use any means possible. If you believe that bringing infants to the fray will gain you, say, International sympathy and make your adversary look evil. Then why not?

If we are looking for answers and understanding here. We can't do it by leaving universal facts off the table.

[johnsimion]

The protesters don't hope to accomplish anything. They're just blowing off steam, and because this isn't supposed to get political, I'm not going into the reasons WHY they're angry. And it's also not political to state my disgust with the Israelis for shooting them with live ammunition instead of using nonlethal methods to defend the border. Have the Israelis ever heard of things like barbed wire, rubber bullets, and tear gas? How do they ever expect to resolve the situation at the border when they needlessly escalated it like this?

[johnsimion]

When your religion commands you to kill a certain group of people by any means possible. You use any means possible.

Is that why the Israelis used live ammunition to control the riots? That their religion commanded them to kill the Palestinian protesters at the border?

[Holly]

The protesters don't hope to accomplish anything. They're just blowing off steam, and because this isn't supposed to get political, I'm not going into the reasons WHY they're angry. And it's also not political to state my disgust with the Israelis for shooting them with live ammunition instead of using nonlethal methods to defend the border. Have the Israelis ever heard of things like barbed wire, rubber bullets, and tear gas? How do they ever expect to resolve the situation at the border when they needlessly escalated it like this?



So trying to kill people with rocks and other objects is just considered blowing off steam ??????? :shocked:

[UtahPete]

As I said. Politics are the natural outcome of a particular society. And any society is the natural outcome of their religion. When your religion commands you to kill a certain group of people by any means possible. You use any means possible. If you believe that bringing infants to the fray will gain you, say, International sympathy and make your adversary look evil. Then why not? If we are looking for answers and understanding here. We can't do it by leaving universal facts off the table.

I agree somewhat. What about non-religious societies such as Russia?

[UtahPete]

Is that why the Israelis used live ammunition to control the riots? That their religion commanded them to kill the Palestinian protesters at the border?

I don't believe religion is the reason for this conflict. I think it's pure politics and that's all I'm going to say about that.

Politics = the activities associated with the governance of a country or other area, especially the debate or conflict among individuals or parties having or hoping to achieve power.

[vided]

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?112924-Just-so-you-know

[UtahPete]

with the protest/riot in palestine about the new embassy location, what do the protesters hope to gain? fire, throwing rocks and other
such things what is there to gain and why bring little little children?
BTW, thanks for the way you phrased the question. We tend to forget about the individuals involved when viewing global conflicts like this one.

[Easy Rider]

i don't care about the political views but the news said babies are there, why would you bring your baby with you, what will that accomplish?

It is an emotional response to an emotional issue.
Logic and reason don't apply.

And then......you can't fix stupidity.

[UtahPete]

It is an emotional response to an emotional issue. Logic and reason don't apply. And then......you can't fix stupidity.
I agree with the bolded portion of your statement.

The rest of it seems 'illogical and unreasoned'.:thumbup:

[Blue Star]

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?112924-Just-so-you-know

:agree:

[BajaRon]

Is that why the Israelis used live ammunition to control the riots? That their religion commanded them to kill the Palestinian protesters at the border?

I don't think you actually believe this is why they used live ammunition. Israel, and many nations around the world, have tried in many, very expensive ways to help the Palestinian people remove themselves from self destruction. They just won't have any of it.

The Israelis used live ammunition because, again, the stated purpose of those rioting was to overwhelm and breach the border to gain access to Israel and kill as many Jews and do as much damage as possible. Israel believed the treat warranted the reaction to protect their citizens from invasion.

They could have held a peaceful protest. They could have stayed home. Just about any alternative action would have brought them a much better outcome.


I agree somewhat. What about non-religious societies such as Russia?

The truth is. There are no 'Non-Religious' societies. Atheists 'Believe' there is no god. They can't prove their position so they must live by faith that their belief's are correct. They certainly proselytize just as any religion might do.

[UtahPete]

The truth is. There are no 'Non-Religious' societies. Atheists 'Believe' there is no god. They can't prove their position so they must live by faith that their belief's are correct. They certainly proselytize just as any religion might do.

Hmmm. I don't think that is true. Russia (and other) societies just don't even consider religion as relevant to society. That doesn't mean that individuals are non-believers, but as a society religion doesn't factor into their thinking.

I spent a month in Russia and met many ordinary Russians. We talked about everything (politics, sex, you name it) but religion just never came up. Not that they are not proud of their Russian Orthodox cathedrals and museums, but it has nothing to do with a belief or non-belief in God. I also visited a Tibetan Buddhist temple in Siberia that was being re-activated and rejuvenated after a 50-year hiatus. The Russians are too pragmatic to be religious, but that doesn't mean they don't revere their culture and arts, including great buildings, icons and the like.

So, my question remains; in a non-religious society like Russia how could religion factor into their antagonistic world view?

[RinconRyder]

The truth is. There are no 'Non-Religious' societies. Atheists 'Believe' there is no god. They can't prove their position so they must live by faith that their belief's are correct. They certainly proselytize just as any religion might do.

Incorrect. The absence of religion is not religion. And I have yet for an atheist to come to my door trying to sell their beliefs.

[loisk]

It's easy to put this conflict on religion, but... add in territory, power, etc

Jerusalem is the key centre for three religions, christian, jewish and muslim. It is the historic capital of Palestine (pre 1948). It is also claimed by Israel. That is what the last few decades of peace talks have had as a key focus. One other nation - one only - has unilaterally decided to move its embassy from tel aviv, saying, again unilaterally, that Jerusalem should be Israelis capital. To add insult to injury they pick a historically significant date for the opening... Violence was always going to ensue. Tear gas into tent protest camps has killed babies - so we blame the parents for living in a tent protest city? or those who sent the tear gas in? or the political scenario? or decades of frustration by all sides at this seemingly insoluble problem? or all of the above?

As someone could say, very sad.

[UtahPete]

It's easy to put this conflict on religion, but... add in territory, power, etc

Jerusalem is the key centre for three religions, christian, jewish and muslim. It is the historic capital of Palestine (pre 1948). It is also claimed by Israel. That is what the last few decades of peace talks have had as a key focus. One other nation - one only - has unilaterally decided to move its embassy from tel aviv, saying, again unilaterally, that Jerusalem should be Israelis capital. To add insult to injury they pick a historically significant date for the opening... Violence was always going to ensue. Tear gas into tent protest camps has killed babies - so we blame the parents for living in a tent protest city? or those who sent the tear gas in? or the political scenario? or decades of frustration by all sides at this seemingly insoluble problem? or all of the above?

As someone could say, very sad.
:agree: I think what is sad is that with all the progress mankind has made in every other important discipline that benefits humanity, we still live in a tribal system where the common man has to pay the price of the ambitions of the tribal chiefs. And the tribal chiefs are continually at war with other tribes because of their obsession over gaining more power and wealth at the expense of the other tribe. They view the world as a pie to be fought over rather than bounty to be shared for the benefit of all. Differences of religion, race, culture, ideology really don't matter to most people but are used by leaders to whip tribal members into the fury needed to sustain the constant hostilities that keep the leaders in power and privilege.

We still kill each other for no good reasons whatsoever.

[loisk]

Spot on

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

It's easy to put this conflict on religion, but... add in territory, power, etc

Jerusalem is the key centre for three religions, christian, jewish and muslim. It is the historic capital of Palestine (pre 1948). It is also claimed by Israel. That is what the last few decades of peace talks have had as a key focus. One other nation - one only - has unilaterally decided to move its embassy from tel aviv, saying, again unilaterally, that Jerusalem should be Israelis capital. To add insult to injury they pick a historically significant date for the opening... Violence was always going to ensue. Tear gas into tent protest camps has killed babies - so we blame the parents for living in a tent protest city? or those who sent the tear gas in? or the political scenario? or decades of frustration by all sides at this seemingly insoluble problem? or all of the above?

As someone could say, very sad.

so they claim jerusalem as their capital it doesn't mean they are claiming ownership. if i claim Thor as my god it doesn't mean no one
else can do so or claim any other norse god.

[Bob Denman]

Not a good argument: You're claiming a Mythical Character, and they're talking about real estate...

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

Not a good argument: You're claiming a Mythical Character, and they're talking about real estate...

OK point taken but isn't almost all the violence in the middle east over real estate of mythical characters?

[Rogue Hawk]

There will never be peace between Israel and the Palestinians. To end the violence, one group would have to wipe out the other completely and that will obviously never happen.

[ofdave]

The protesters don't hope to accomplish anything. They're just blowing off steam, and because this isn't supposed to get political, I'm not going into the reasons WHY they're angry. And it's also not political to state my disgust with the Israelis for shooting them with live ammunition instead of using nonlethal methods to defend the border. Have the Israelis ever heard of things like barbed wire, rubber bullets, and tear gas? How do they ever expect to resolve the situation at the border when they needlessly escalated it like this?


The entire protest by the Palestinians is orchestrated and guided by Hamas.
Those poor protesters are, in fact, not just "blowing off steam". They are bent to destroy the fence and breach it to allow them to enter Israel to destroy it.
Perhaps the protestors should have used flashlights instead of molatov cocktails and the kites they flew with them attached to set fire inside Israel should have instead been used them to carry pinatas filled with candy.
Forty thousand who have a goal of causing destruction are doing much more than "blowing off steam".

[Bob Denman]

:agree: nojoke

[UtahPete]

Blind hatred bred from infancy. It has popped up in many if not all cultures in one form or another. Few have taken it to this level, however. Yet it has been coming from this same source for over 1,000 years. With this kind of consistency and longevity. It's difficult to hope that it will be resolved anytime soon. Politics is an outgrowth of the culture. And the culture is simply religion externalized.

Why do we, who have no direct interest in this conflict, either as individuals or as a country, align against an oppressed people who are 'yearning to be free'? Why are we aligning ourselves with the oppressor rather than the oppressed?

[Bob Denman]

Why do we, who have no direct interest in this conflict, either as individuals or as a country, align against an oppressed people who are 'yearning to be free'? Why are we aligning ourselves with the oppressor rather than the oppressed?
So since you have no direct interest: why is it so important to you, to identify one group as an oppressor, and the other as the oppressed?
Why not just say that there's more than enough hatred on both sides, to keep the violence fueled for another couple of thousand years? :banghead:

[UtahPete]

I'm sorry to see this thread die from lack of interest in the topic. I thought the premise was good; outside of politics, why are the Palestinians subjecting themselves and their children to danger for their cause?

Is there a reason people would risk everything for a cause that is not 'political' (i.e. a struggle for governmental power)?

Some would suggest the Palestinians are protesting because their religion demands it. I reject that. I think they are protesting because they want a better life and future for themselves and their children. Isn't that what has caused all oppressed people throughout recorded history to rise up against the oppressors?

[Bob Denman]

They're doing it for all of those virgins...

161197

[Bob Denman]

But the Hef has an unpleasant surprise for them! :roflblack:

161198

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

I'm sorry to see this thread die from lack of interest in the topic. I thought the premise was good; outside of politics, why are the Palestinians subjecting themselves and their children to danger for their cause?

Is there a reason people would risk everything for a cause that is not 'political' (i.e. a struggle for governmental power)?

Some would suggest the Palestinians are protesting because their religion demands it. I reject that. I think they are protesting because they want a better life and future for themselves and their children. Isn't that what has caused all oppressed people throughout recorded history to rise up against the oppressors?

I don't agree, if they want a better life for their wives & children they wouldn't have them with them at the protest putting them in
danger. my original question is more of a psychological question of why. whey do people act like ants and just follow or destroy with
no true chance of gain outside of personal satisfaction of destruction.

[UtahPete]

I don't agree, if they want a better life for their wives & children they wouldn't have them with them at the protest putting them in danger. my original question is more of a psychological question of why. whey do people act like ants and just follow or destroy with no true chance of gain outside of personal satisfaction of destruction.
Maybe because they feel they have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Isn't that what has fueled uprisings and insurrections throughout human history?

I think ants are actually pretty amazing creatures that sacrifice 'soldiers' for the good of the community. Most societies do that.

Unfortunately ours is a society that sacrifices soldiers for purely political reasons, having nothing to do with self-defense, but that's another topic.

[UtahPete]

It may seem so to 'them'. But in our revolution we did not seek to destroy the British nation. Nor did we chant, 'Death to all Englishmen'. It's hard to negotiate with a group of people who's primary and unwavering goal is your extinction... Once this is understood. I think their actions become much more understandable.

This is the 'political' explanation (right or wrong). OP was asking what motivates the individuals to sacrifice themselves and their babies for this 'cause'?

[johnsimion]

I'm sorry to see this thread die from lack of interest in the topic. I thought the premise was good; outside of politics, why are the Palestinians subjecting themselves and their children to danger for their cause?

Is there a reason people would risk everything for a cause that is not 'political' (i.e. a struggle for governmental power)?

Some would suggest the Palestinians are protesting because their religion demands it. I reject that. I think they are protesting because they want a better life and future for themselves and their children. Isn't that what has caused all oppressed people throughout recorded history to rise up against the oppressors?


I think they're protesting because they were kicked out of their own land and herded into Gaza. Quoting Wikipedia: "The majority of the Palestinians descend from refugees who were driven from or left their homes during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War)." Look at the area on Google Maps and you might understand why they'd protest: Large farms, few people living on the Israeli side of the border while there are almost 2 million Palestinians packed into a tiny area with no resources. They're still considered to be part of Israel, and Israel retains the right to enter whenever it feels like it, but if you're a Palestinian living there, you can't go into Israel. What hope do these people have for the future under those conditions? And the world seems to think this is just fine.

[Easy Rider]

Why do we, who have no direct interest in this conflict, either as individuals or as a country, align against an oppressed people who are 'yearning to be free'? Why are we aligning ourselves with the oppressor rather than the oppressed?

Maybe that fact that for about 6000 years those rolls were reversed.
Just maybe.

[UtahPete]

Maybe that fact that for about 6000 years those rolls were reversed. Just maybe.
Could you explain that please? Thanks.

[Easy Rider]

but if you're a Palestinian living there, you can't go into Israel. What hope do these people have for the future under those conditions? And the world seems to think this is just fine.

It wasn't always like that.

If you really care about this situation, you need to read unbiased history about what has gone on in the region since 1948 and 1967.
But before you do that, you need to have a general understanding about what went on in the region for a few thousand years before that.

In the history of the world, more people have died at the hands of religious zealots than in all of the declared "national" wars combined.

And that is still going on in the middle east and Africa mostly. Some really bad stuff in Africa. Most of the world REALLY doesn't care what happens in Africa.

[Bob Denman]

...In the history of the world, more people have died at the hands of religious zealots than in all of the declared "national" wars combined.

Yup! :agree:
Most of Man's worst inhumanity inflicted on his fellow Man: has been done in the name of God... (Or whatever you wish to call Him.) nojoke

[UtahPete]

It wasn't always like that. If you really care about this situation, you need to read unbiased history about what has gone on in the region since 1948 and 1967.
But before you do that, you need to have a general understanding about what went on in the region for a few thousand years before that. In the history of the world, more people have died at the hands of religious zealots than in all of the declared "national" wars combined. And that is still going on in the middle east and Africa mostly. Some really bad stuff in Africa. Most of the world REALLY doesn't care what happens in Africa.
I understand.

Without getting into the role of religion in human misery over the millennia, let me ask you; do you think people today should be condemned and penalized for what their ancestors did?

[Easy Rider]

do you think people today should be condemned and penalized for what their ancestors did?

Only if they continue to do it.......or insist on seeking revenge for transgressions that ended long ago.

What people really should be "condemned" for is teaching their children to HATE.

[UtahPete]

Only if they continue to do it.......or insist on seeking revenge for transgressions that ended long ago. What people really should be "condemned" for is teaching their children to HATE.
:agree: I just don't believe the Palestinians are any different than anyone else in that respect.

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

Only if they continue to do it.......or insist on seeking revenge for transgressions that ended long ago.

What people really should be "condemned" for is teaching their children to HATE.

That is what i believe is happening when you bring children to a riot.