BLEED BRAKES

[SPYD3R]

OK, tomorrow i bleed the brake system on my 2015 F3 for the 1st time....
I'm of the opinion that the sequence for bleeding is: rear, left front and lastly the right front caliper.... am i correct...?
anyone have any additional tips....
thanx in advance....
Dan P
SPYD3R

[4 MARIE]

I guess like any other brake system, bleed the caliper farthest away from the master cylinder and work your way "in".

Is there a specific reason you need to bleed your brakes ?

[SPYD3R]

I guess like any other brake system, bleed the caliper farthest away from the master cylinder and work your way "in".

Is there a specific reason you need to bleed your brakes ?


the BOOK says to change the brake fluid at 28,000 miles from what I'm told....
i have 45,000 miles of smiles on mine, so i guess i'm over-due... :lecturef_smilie:
dp

[Motorcycledave]

To avoid air bubbles use a pressure bleeder



the BOOK says to change the brake fluid at 28,000 miles from what I'm told....
i have 45,000 miles of smiles on mine, so i guess i'm over-due... :lecturef_smilie:
dp

[pegasus1300]

My 2012 RT calls for a fluid change at 14,500 or 2 years which ever comes first. I had mine done at 14,500 and it was actually 4 years. The fluid looked really bad. I had it done by the dealer that time but will try it myself next time which will be this spring when the world warms back up. I am pushing 36,000 miles and it is coming up on 2 years. BTW I don't like the brakes on the 2012,they always feel mushy but I have had them bled twice with no change.

[SPYD3R]

To avoid air bubbles use a pressure bleeder

yup, i have a pressure (vacuum) bleeder, and have performed this function on many cars/trucks, but this is the 1st time on a SPYD3R.....
i've performed this function on a BMW, and the book specified to start at the left front wheel, and i was wondering if BRP did something strange on the sequence for bleeding....

[JayBros]

OK, tomorrow i bleed the brake system on my 2015 F3 for the 1st time....
I'm of the opinion that the sequence for bleeding is: rear, left front and lastly the right front caliper.... am i correct...?
anyone have any additional tips....
thanx in advance....
Dan P
SPYD3R

My green manual says the bleeding sequence on my '14 RT-S is L caliper, R caliper, rear caliper. The manual also gives a manual bleeding procedure followed by a B.U.D.S. bleeding sequence. That bleeds the ABS system too through bleeding the VCM. My owner's manual says to change the brake fluid every 2 years.

[youngers]

My 2012 RT calls for a fluid change at 14,500 or 2 years which ever comes first. I had mine done at 14,500 and it was actually 4 years. The fluid looked really bad. I had it done by the dealer that time but will try it myself next time which will be this spring when the world warms back up. I am pushing 36,000 miles and it is coming up on 2 years. BTW I don't like the brakes on the 2012,they always feel mushy but I have had them bled twice with no change.

yes , going to do mine this winter session , of no ride . went for a good run last month , noticed the brake was a bit more play than I like , so will do either brake pads change and bleed , or start with the bleed and see how they stop before the pads change ! { wonder if Santa could do a whip them into shape before he takes off from the package drop :thumbup: }

[SpyderConvert]

Does anyone know if stainless steel-wrapped brake lines are available? Just curious.

[SPYD3R]

OK, here's the latest......
a member gave me a print-out of the manuals BRAKE SYSTEM...
To perform a COMPLETE BRAKE SYSTEM BLEED, the manual states to start with: 1. Left Front Caliper, 2. Right Front Caliper, 3. Rear Caliper & 4. VCM..... Question: what is a VCM...?
Then it states to: Connect to B.U.D.S. and log on... is it absolutely necessary to log on BUDS for the system to work properly....? Or can this be eliminated...? has anyone NOT logged onto BUDS with good results...?
I guess my 20 years away from this type of work, and all these electronics has left me in the dark...
Dan P
SPYD3R

[billybovine]

Using Buds to bleed the VCM would be a more complete job, but skipping that part will only leave a small amount of old fluid in the system. I skipped that part.

Warning. Many folks have run into trouble by turning the ignition key on too soon. If you don't pump up the brake pedal until it is all the way up and firm before turning on the key. You will get a low pressure fault.

[SPYD3R]

Using Buds to bleed the VCM would be a more complete job, but skipping that part will only leave a small amount of old fluid in the system. I skipped that part.

Warning. Many folks have run into trouble by turning the ignition key on too soon. If you don't pump up the brake pedal until it is all the way up and firm before turning on the key. You will get a low pressure fault.


THX Billy.... good info....
Dan

[JKMSPYDER]

Dan there is a video on YouTube that shows a guy bleeding the brakes on an RS.

[ahh-cool]

My 2012 RT calls for a fluid change at 14,500 or 2 years which ever comes first. I had mine done at 14,500 and it was actually 4 years. The fluid looked really bad. I had it done by the dealer that time but will try it myself next time which will be this spring when the world warms back up. I am pushing 36,000 miles and it is coming up on 2 years. BTW I don't like the brakes on the 2012,they always feel mushy but I have had them bled twice with no change.
Mine were mushy also, when I had the front brake pads replaced they bled them and now it's hard.
I have to kep adding fluid a very couple of months. Maybe mushy is better

[ahh-cool]

OK, here's the latest......
a member gave me a print-out of the manuals BRAKE SYSTEM...
To perform a COMPLETE BRAKE SYSTEM BLEED, the manual states to start with: 1. Left Front Caliper, 2. Right Front Caliper, 3. Rear Caliper & 4. VCM..... Question: what is a VCM...?
Then it states to: Connect to B.U.D.S. and log on... is it absolutely necessary to log on BUDS for the system to work properly....? Or can this be eliminated...? has anyone NOT logged onto BUDS with good results...?
I guess my 20 years away from this type of work, and all these electronics has left me in the dark...
Dan P
SPYD3R
Yes, I replaced my master cylinder and the dealer told me that they had to bleed the brakes, because you can't do it without the buds system. I told him to go screw himself that I could do it myself.
I was wrong. I put a gallon and a half of fluid through the system and the best I could get is pumping the brakes to stop.
Over time it got better but was never good

[AeroPilot]

I have been pleased with the couple of times that the bike was in for other things and Fremont got them flushed and bled as well as the clutch fluid on the 2011 SM5. Just had them flush the brake fluid on the 15 RT last month and now with a new oil change it is ready for winter...after I wash and wax and maybe sneak in a ryde or two!!

[Navydad]

Does anyone know if stainless steel-wrapped brake lines are available? Just curious.


If you can't find any available you can always make your own. I always make my own for the vintage bikes I restore and I will make a set for my Spyder when the time comes. Not hard to do and I get my supplies here https://www.anplumbing.com/ It is a good idea to change the fluid every two years regardless of mileage because the fluid draws moisture whether the bike id being ridden or not. Moisture is the death of braking systems on bikes because of the corrosion it causes and it doesn't take long once the process has started.

[SpyderConvert]

Thanks, Navydad!!

[pegasus1300]

Mine were mushy also, when I had the front brake pads replaced they bled them and now it's hard.
I have to kep adding fluid a very couple of months. Maybe mushy is better

No, I don't think mushy is better. I have had my brake pads replaced and the system bled twice by the dealer and been connected to the BUDS program and no real improvement. The last time, his comment was that the brakes felt pretty good to him. His explanation was that the brakes pedal activates something in the computer (sorry I don't remember what) which then tells the brakes how much pressure to apply which then stops your Spyder. Now remember this is just my recollection of his understanding as to why my brakes are mushy. I didn't question him further as I could see that we weren't communicating and I didn't think he knew any more.

[JayBros]

Mushy is never good in any hydraulic brake system; it's an indication of, at minimum, air in the line(s). I tried to find in my green manual the relationship of the VCM, Vehicle Control Module to the brakes but was not successful. The VCM interacts with all the other computer/sensor modules of the Spyder. I think what the tech was trying to convey to Paul was the relationship of the brake fluid pressure in the ABS to the speed of the vehicle and the three ABS wheel sensors (BRP calls the front ones Tone Wheels and the rear one a wheel sensor, go figure.) modulated by the ABS system in a panic stop.

[SpyderJerry]

You need to also bleed the VCM, just as you do the calipers. More than likley reason for mushy brakes. Only other reason would be a sticky caliper, slides or piston.

[SPYD3R]

You need to also bleed the VCM, just as you do the calipers. More than likley reason for mushy brakes. Only other reason would be a sticky caliper, slides or piston.

JERRY;
WHAT IS THE 'VCM'....?
WHERE IS THE 'VCM'....?
Dan P
SPYD3R

[JKMSPYDER]

Dan, VCM stands for Vehicle Control Module but I don't know where it is. As Billy Bovine said, you don't need BUDS to bleed the brakes but if you do it yourself there will still be a little bit of old fluid left in the system. If the dealer does it with BUDS, all of the old fluid will be flushed out.

[SpyderJerry]

The VCN (Vehicle Control Module) is located to the left of the steering box. There is a full explination in the service manual in the maintenance and chassisi, vehicle stability section. When I rebuilt my 2013 rt, that was a crashed unit. I had to do a complete frame replacement. When bleeding the brakes at all four bleeders, it cleaned up fast and had full firm pedal. I did not need Buds hooked up to do this. Also made sure key was off and never depredded pedal completely.

[SPYD3R]

The VCN (Vehicle Control Module) is located to the left of the steering box. There is a full explination in the service manual in the maintenance and chassisi, vehicle stability section. When I rebuilt my 2013 rt, that was a crashed unit. I had to do a complete frame replacement. When bleeding the brakes at all four bleeders, it cleaned up fast and had full firm pedal. I did not need Buds hooked up to do this. Also made sure key was off and never depredded pedal completely.


THANX Jerry.... u da man....
Dan

[JayBros]

The VCN (Vehicle Control Module) is located to the left of the steering box. There is a full explination in the service manual in the maintenance and chassisi, vehicle stability section...

Thanks for the location of the VCM information, Jerry. It's a busy piece of equipment.

[SpyderConvert]

I am a firm believer in changing out the brake fluid every 2 years and bleeding the brakes is vital to the procedure. Almost all of my motorcycles have had the brake lines changed over to the stainless steel-wrapped lines because, over time, the pressure in those "rubber" OEM lines will stretch/deform and make brakes feel mushy as they stretch under the pressure in the lines. Am I wrong in this??

[Navydad]

Nope you're not wrong on that. The rubber lines also have a liner on the inside that can break down with time and old fluid. When this happens the liner can impede the flow of the fluid and can cause all sorts of goofy things to happen. Usually applying the brakes won't be an issue but when you release the brakes the fluid can't retreat because of the blockage and you have brakes not releasing fully. As the rubber lines age they slowly break down and become porous enough to allow moisture into the system. Moisture will cause mushy brakes and if you are riding and braking hard this moisture will heat at a lower temp than brake fluid and then expand and cause goofy things to happen. This is more of a problem on two wheelers at race track speeds and braking, but I have seen it on street bikes with badly neglected brake systems. I was on Deals Gap last year on my old Honda and a guy rolled up on a full dress HD. The bike would barely roll as the brakes were almost locked and VERY hot. I did about all I could do in the parking lot and loosened the bleeders enough to release some pressure and told him to let it cool a bit. Stuff that came out looked like pancake syrup. I asked him when the brake fluid was last changed. He looked at me like I had three eyes, man didn't have a clue what I was talking about. He had big $$$ in chrome and lights plus all the new leather hanging on his back and his first question was "what would that cost me?" "Uh, maybe your life?" All kinds of neat info out there to make your bike go faster, but not so much info on how to make it stop better. I think the two kind of go together don't you?

[JayBros]

IMO, the best justification for changing brake fluid every two years is because it's hygroscopic. In addition to some of the rubber components breaking down with their constant exposure to brake fluid, who wants water in the system?

[SPYD3R]

OK, tomorrow i bleed the brake system on my 2015 F3 for the 1st time....I'm of the opinion that the sequence for bleeding is: rear, left front and lastly the right front caliper.... am i correct...?anyone have any additional tips....thanx in advance....Dan PSPYD3ROK, so i didn't do it the next day.... sorry...but i did do it today, 2 Jan. 2018....got a vacuum pump kit from HF, which worked excellently.... a new bottle of DOT4 Brake Fluid... half hour of labor (us old guys take longer, since the floor is so far away)... after buttoning up & cleaning up, i saddled up and went for a short ride (in 20F temps) to make sure all was well..... results were a 100% TOTAL success... giddy up.....Dan PSPYD3R

[lebon]

curious if you bled the VCM as well?

[SPYD3R]

curious if you bled the VCM as well?

NO.....
i purged no less than 20 oz. of fluid thru the system without tapping into the VCM... took her for a ride, and NO CODES or any other ill effects... and i'm here to tell you that the fluid that came out, was as clear as that that went in... yes, i know the old fluid absorbs moisture, but it was still clear....
Dan P
SPYD3R

[lebon]

Cool, glad it worked out. I want to do my 2013 ST. Have the shop manual to help along the way and when I saw it talking about having to do the VCM and also hook up to the BUDS I got all... oh no! But it sounds like other folk like yourself have done it without much hiccups. :clap:

[oldgoat]

NO.....
i purged no less than 20 oz. of fluid thru the system without tapping into the VCM... took her for a ride, and NO CODES or any other ill effects... and i'm here to tell you that the fluid that came out, was as clear as that that went in... yes, i know the old fluid absorbs moisture, but it was still clear....
Dan P
SPYD3R

I bleed my 3 calipers every winter. The fluid has always been clear & just about colorless like the new stuff going in.
Have never done a complete fluid exchange.
The Spyder is an '08 GS SM5. I also change out the clutch fluid at the same time & that is always clear & almost colorless as well.

I wonder what has been going on in the braking & clutch systems of those who report dirty, dark fluid coming out?

[pauly1]

I bled the ABS system on my 2016 2-wheeler with a vacuum system as Dan used. There are two discs on the front and one on the back. Bled the longest line first (front left disc), followed by the front right and finished with the rear. Only a moderate discoloration was noted in the brake fluid. The hydraulic clutch was a different story: it was a dark gray color with sediment in the fluid reservoir.

The brake purge sequence using the BUDS causes the valves to shift which bleeding the system, providing clean fluid to the valves. The manual states:
1. manual bleed the front left, front right, rear, then manual bleed of the VCM
2. BUDS bleed the VCM front circuit, then rear circuit
3. repeat of the sequence in step 1
4. validate system pressure

So presumably the open valve position is purge but not the block position or pressure build circuit. But then the calipers don't get bled, do they?

Wayne

[Grayfox]

THANX Jerry.... u da man....
Dan
My dealer want's at least 300.00 to bleed the brakes on my 2012 rt. Sounds high to me. My dealer is Honda of Winston Salem N. C.

[JKMSPYDER]

Wow! My dealer in Greenville, SC only charged me $95 to bleed and refill the brake system on my F3-S.

[Wildrice]

OK, tomorrow i bleed the brake system on my 2015 F3 for the 1st time....
I'm of the opinion that the sequence for bleeding is: rear, left front and lastly the right front caliper.... am i correct...?
anyone have any additional tips....
thanx in advance....
Dan P
SPYD3R


There are several pieces of equipment from pressure to vacuum bleeder of you doing this by yourself. If you have a friend that can depress the brake pedal while you open the bleeder valve you will be just fine. Like someone else said..Start from the farthest wheel to the brake master cylinder & work forward--etc. Might be a good idea to completely replace all the brake fluid & eliminate moisture. Same procedure--just make sure the master cylinder doesn't go empty while bleeding. suck the existing dirty fluid out of the master cycl & replace it with new brake fluid before you start the bleeding process---you will notice a color change when the old dirty fluid starts looking clean on each wheel. We never did one on a Spyder but we did a several hundred on all model cars & trucks--it's all the same.
Darrell

[Ryan12]

Does that mean the VCM has a bleeder port? I would think the little fluid that is left would dilute into the fresh new fluid.

[SpyderConvert]

I've seen one-way valves that attach to the bleeder port on calipers, has anyone tried them??

[Wildrice]

Does that mean the VCM has a bleeder port? I would think the little fluid that is left would dilute into the fresh new fluid.


In my opinion the VCM brake fluid would dilute into the new fluid. The manual states to start brake bleeding with the front brakes but I'm still in favor of starting with the caliper farthest from the master cylinder. The manual also states there is a bleeder valve on the VCM but unless you have the BUDS equipment I won't worry about bleeding the VCM as long as each caliper's fluid changes from dirty to clear brake fluid. The manual is lacking in directions & info--some parts state using Dot 3 & Some Dot 4. My master brake cylinder cover states use Dot 4. Dot 3 will boil from heavy braking. That has happened to me in my old 24' motorhome coming down a mountain--it's a very unpleasant feeling when the brake pedal goes to the floor & no braking occurs.

Darrell

[Wildrice]

I've seen one-way valves that attach to the bleeder port on calipers, has anyone tried them??


Brake bleeder valves should be on top of the caliper reservoir--so when its opened the air (lighter than fluid) will escape first under brake pedal pressure. Just make sure you close that valve before the person takes their foot off the brake pedal or else air will get drawn back in when the caliper piston retracts.
Darrell

[Haze]

I've seen one-way valves that attach to the bleeder port on calipers, has anyone tried them??

I used a one way valve for bleeding the brakes on my 2013 ST.
It worked great and made this a one person job.
Bought the valve on EBay.

[lebon]

Does that mean the VCM has a bleeder port? I would think the little fluid that is left would dilute into the fresh new fluid.
Yes the VCM has a bleeder. It is quite visible and accessible on the top of the VCM. I have used the one way bleeders, Speed Bleeder, they do work good. No need to open/close the bleeder during the pumping procedure. I am finding my brakes still feel mushy after having done a fluid flush. I am not getting any error codes though.