US imposes 300% import tariff on Bombardier

[blitzkreig]

http://www.theweek.co.uk/trade/88867/us-imposes-300-import-tariff-on-bombardier

“This hypocrisy is appalling” the spokesperson added, “and it should be deeply troubling to any importer of large, complex, and highly engineered products.”

could the Spyder be next ... ?

:yikes:

[wyliec]

http://www.theweek.co.uk/trade/88867/us-imposes-300-import-tariff-on-bombardier

“This hypocrisy is appalling” the spokesperson added, “and it should be deeply troubling to any importer of large, complex, and highly engineered products.”

could the Spyder be next ... ?

:yikes:


I don't think it's falling yet!
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQsaSSnIXJ-PAB9ve3dhvjEc4y071cEWRmDNAy2nSVtyQwHmYUwEg

[JerryB]

Hi blitzkreig,

Re: US imposes 300% import tariff on Bombardier (http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?109742-US-imposes-300-import-tariff-on-Bombardier)

It will be interesting to hear how loud Boeing squeals when the Canadians do the same.

Jerry Baumchen

[UtahPete]

http://www.theweek.co.uk/trade/88867/us-imposes-300-import-tariff-on-bombardier

“This hypocrisy is appalling” the spokesperson added, “and it should be deeply troubling to any importer of large, complex, and highly engineered products.”

could the Spyder be next ... ?

Only it if competes with an American manufacturer with political influence ..... oh boy...

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Has anybody produced facts showing how much Bombardier is being subsidized by the Canadian and Irish governments? And then let's see how much Boeing is being supported by the US and local Gov'ts via direct and indirect subsidies, like tax breaks.

Remember, tariffs on large imported motorcycles put in place by the Reagan administration is what saved HD.

[UtahPete]

Has anybody produced facts showing how much Bombardier is being subsidized by the Canadian and Irish governments? And then let's see how much Boeing is being supported by the US and local Gov'ts via direct and indirect subsidies, like tax breaks. Remember, tariffs on large imported motorcycles put in place by the Reagan administration is what saved HD.

So much for free market advocacy. NAFTA is on the chopping block and China is stepping into the void we left in Asia. If this is what fiscal conservatism and free market capitalism has become we're doomed.

[PaladinLV]

How about this.
Start making those engines in the US and there will be NO TARIFF!

BTW
Bombardier is not the ONLY manufacturer that pays to play in the US without manufacturing in the US, so before getting your pantyhose all tied up in a knot get ALL the FACTS! ;)

AJ


http://www.theweek.co.uk/trade/88867/us-imposes-300-import-tariff-on-bombardier

“This hypocrisy is appalling” the spokesperson added, “and it should be deeply troubling to any importer of large, complex, and highly engineered products.”

could the Spyder be next ... ?

:yikes:

[ARtraveler]

No worry IMO on the :spyder2:. They already tried that game with motorcycles in order to help HD. All it gave us were more expensive motorcycles--and HD is one of the leaders. :thumbup:

[UtahPete]

How about this. Start making those engines in the US and there will be NO TARIFF! AJ

The tariff is cheaper than using American labor. If we forced all manufacturers to make their goods in the US, only the top 1% could afford to buy anything. There's no simple answer to the world trade issues.

[Bob Denman]

Who really cares? :dontknow:
In another 100 years: we'll all be dead, and a bunch of other nit-wits will still be bitching about the same damn stuff... :gaah:

[UtahPete]

Who really cares? :dontknow: In another 100 years: we'll all be dead, and a bunch of other nit-wits will still be bitching about the same damn stuff... :gaah:

You're right. I hate it when that happens. :gaah:

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

http://www.theweek.co.uk/trade/88867/us-imposes-300-import-tariff-on-bombardier

“This hypocrisy is appalling” the spokesperson added, “and it should be deeply troubling to any importer of large, complex, and highly engineered products.”

could the Spyder be next ... ?

:yikes:
You aren't by chance thinking they're connected? BRP, the mfgr of the Spyder is not affiliated with Bombardier, the airplane maker. Or are you just wondering about the Spyder since both are Canadian made? The Spyder falls under NAFTA. The jets may not since so much of their production is in Ireland.

[billybovine]

The tariff is on the the C series aircraft only.

BRP and Bombardier are not the same company. Bombardier sold them off in 2003.

The engines on the C series airplane are made in the US. Made by Pratt & Whitney a division of United Technologies Corporation. Bombardier does not make any aircraft engines.

A little over 50% of the C Series aircraft parts are made in the US.

The aircraft is not made in Ireland. The wings are made there.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

So the only basis for the tariff are the alleged subsidies by the Canadian and Irish governments. Can Boeing prove the subsidies do in fact exist? If so, they may have an argument.

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

tariffs are one thing but exorbitant tariffs are another. 220% is just plain crazy.

[jaherbst]

You aren't by chance thinking they're connected? BRP, the mfgr of the Spyder is not affiliated with Bombardier, the airplane maker. Or are you just wondering about the Spyder since both are Canadian made? The Spyder falls under NAFTA. The jets may not since so much of their production is in Ireland.

The two are still owned by the parent company of Bombardier Inc. but operate as separate entities.

​Jack

[billybovine]

The two are still owned by the parent company of Bombardier Inc. but operate as separate entities.

​Jack

That's incorrect. They are separate companies. Both publicly traded. Bombardier inc. has no equity in BRP. If Bombardier had any equity ownership in any other company. That would have been sold long ago trying to stay out of bankruptcy.

[sandeejs]

In another 100 years: we'll all be dead, and a bunch of other nit-wits will still be bitching about the same damn stuff... :gaah:
Sounds like Thanksgiving dinners with my family.

~Sandee~

[Wildrice]

No worry IMO on the :spyder2:. They already tried that game with motorcycles in order to help HD. All it gave us were more expensive motorcycles--and HD is one of the leaders. :thumbup:

I agree plus a large portion of HD motorcycles are Not build in the USA & some of the parts like the Struts/shocks are built by Honda's subsidy "Showa" in Sunbury, OH.. Electronics from Japan.

[Bob Denman]

Sounds like Thanksgiving dinners with my family.

~Sandee~
:D Thanks, Sis! :thumbup:

[RinconRyder]

No worry IMO on the :spyder2:. They already tried that game with motorcycles in order to help HD. All it gave us were more expensive motorcycles--and HD is one of the leaders. :thumbup:

I don't think so. It definitely protected HD so they could raise their prices but its effect upon the Japanese big CC engines was minimal.

What it did do was encourage the Japanese "big 3" to reduce the size of their engines and come out with better performing, yet cheaper, street machines. Since HD buyers generally don't buy on price and wouldn't be caught dead riding Japanese machines it had very little impact on the market overall.

[ARtraveler]

I don't think so. It definitely protected HD so they could raise their prices but its effect upon the Japanese big CC engines was minimal.

What it did do was encourage the Japanese "big 3" to reduce the size of their engines and come out with better performing, yet cheaper, street machines. Since HD buyers generally don't buy on price and wouldn't be caught dead riding Japanese machines it had very little impact on the market overall.

I am going to respectfully disagree on a couple points. Those wonderful inline fours pretty much disappeared. Every Japanese major ended up with V twins and HD clones in the process. I am one of the few that liked the UJM. My last inline 4 was the last year Kawi Voyager. 2002, 2003???? I currently have a v-twin 2015 900 LTD.

Pretty much all Japanese from the 60's up were flawless. I never had a major mechanical problem over all four brands and every cc level. What stuck out for me was the disappearance of the in line fours--the copy cat v twin on pretty much everything, and the new and improved pricing. HD was the clear winner. Everyone had to match HD pricing in the long run.

The current market is changing a bit. I do believe HD is going to price themselves out of the market. Their new CVO line is starting at $40K.

[RinconRyder]

I am going to respectfully disagree on a couple points. Those wonderful inline fours pretty much disappeared. Every Japanese major ended up with V twins and HD clones in the process. I am one of the few that liked the UJM. My last inline 4 was the last year Kawi Voyager. 2002, 2003???? I currently have a v-twin 2015 900 LTD.

Pretty much all Japanese from the 60's up were flawless. I never had a major mechanical problem over all four brands and every cc level. What stuck out for me was the disappearance of the in line fours--the copy cat v twin on pretty much everything, and the new and improved pricing. HD was the clear winner. Everyone had to match HD pricing in the long run.

The current market is changing a bit. I do believe HD is going to price themselves out of the market. Their new CVO line is starting at $40K.

I too was a big fan of the inline fours. My '71 Honda 750 Four (slightly modified) could beat the pants off any HD made in those days.

But the UJM were just following a trend by trying to copy HD's Potato Twins. It didn't succeed. Both Yamaha and Kawasaki did however sell a bunch of their 80ish vertical twins ala Triumph, BSA etc. So sometimes copying but producing a better product does work. I owned a '81 Yammy 650 Twin which, when I saw it last, had well over 100,000 miles on it and the then owner was about to take it cross country for the 4th or 5th time. I think Kawasaki still sells their version of the Triumph Bonneville 650 twin.

[Bob Denman]

The W650 us no longer offered for sale in the U.S.
But it might still be available in other markets... :dontknow:

[Freddy]

The W650 us no longer offered for sale in the U.S.
But it might still be available in other markets... :dontknow:


Yes, it's the W800 now tho I think they're no longer being produced but some stock still available.



https://kawasaki.com.au/shop/motorcycles/sport/2016-w800-se/

[jaherbst]

That's incorrect. They are separate companies. Both publicly traded. Bombardier inc. has no equity in BRP. If Bombardier had any equity ownership in any other company. That would have been sold long ago trying to stay out of bankruptcy.

Not according to Wikipedia. Bombardier Inc. is still the parent company for Aerospace, Transportation, Locomotive, Can Am and of course Snowmobiles

which Joseph-Armond Bombardier started this mega conglomerate with.

Jack

[White Lightening]

This is nothing new, Boeing, Airbus, the Brazilian aircraft maker, all have been in and out of these disputes for years. They drag on for years before being settled (sometimes by the WTO) and all of them have won and lost decisions against each other. Airbus has a big part to play in this too.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/2017/10/16/airbus-takes-majority-stake-bombardiers-c-series-program/770476001/

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Not according to Wikipedia. Bombardier Inc. is still the parent company for Aerospace, Transportation, Locomotive, Can Am and of course Snowmobiles

which Joseph-Armond Bombardier started this mega conglomerate with.

Jack

From the BRP document BRP Annual Information form, March 31, 2017.

In 2003, while operating as a division of Bombardier Inc., the Company was sold by Bombardier
Inc. to an investor group including Bain Capital Luxembourg Investments S.à r.l. (“Bain Capital”),
members of the Bombardier and Beaudoin families and Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec
(“CDPQ”).

From the Bombardier Annual Report for 2016.

We are the world’s leading manufacturer of both planes and trains, operating under four reportable segments:
Business Aircraft, Commercial Aircraft, Aerostructures and Engineering Services and Transportation. We are
providing more efficient, sustainable and enjoyable transportati on solutions. Our products, services, and most
of all, our 66,000 dedicated and highly skilled employees are w hat makes us a global leader in mobility and
innovation. As at the date of this report, we have 73 production and engineering sites in 29 countries and a
worldwide network of service centres.

The Bombardier and Beaudoin families own shares in both companies, but the companies are two entirely separate entities.

[kngfsh27]

I agree plus a large portion of HD motorcycles are Not build in the USA & some of the parts like the Struts/shocks are built by Honda's subsidy "Showa" in Sunbury, OH.. Electronics from Japan.
The engines and frames are still built in the US. What other large portion are you talking about?:dontknow:

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

I agree plus a large portion of HD motorcycles are Not build in the USA & some of the parts like the Struts/shocks are built by Honda's subsidy "Showa" in Sunbury, OH.. Electronics from Japan.


The engines and frames are still built in the US. What other large portion are you talking about?:dontknow:
There was a time several years ago that there was more American content in a Honda Goldwing than in HD. But it's almost hopeless to figure what parts came from where. I've read where many auto parts have crossed the Mexico and Canada borders multiple times by the time they are in a completed component, let alone the final product. I imagine many motorcycle parts are included in that back and forth game. For example, an electrical harness may have wire from Taiwan, terminal bits from China, plastic housings from US, all assembled in Japan. Who made the part? No good answer.

For all we know the shocks Wildrice refers to may have rubber seals from Japan, pistons made in Mexico from steel from China, and so on, all put together in Ohio. Made in XXX is almost meaningless today. Don't be surprised if those HD engines made in the US have timing gears from Taiwan, or wherever, in them. I would not be at all surprised if the block castings come from China, with final machining here. That's why the President's desire to see NAFTA killed might end up constipating US manufacturing rather than helping it.

[UtahPete]

There was a time several years ago that there was more American content in a Honda Goldwing than in HD. But it's almost hopeless to figure what parts came from where. I've read where many auto parts have crossed the Mexico and Canada borders multiple times by the time they are in a completed component, let alone the final product. I imagine many motorcycle parts are included in that back and forth game. For example, an electrical harness may have wire from Taiwan, terminal bits from China, plastic housings from US, all assembled in Japan. Who made the part? No good answer.

For all we know the shocks Wildrice refers to may have rubber seals from Japan, pistons made in Mexico from steel from China, and so on, all put together in Ohio. Made in XXX is almost meaningless today. Don't be surprised if those HD engines made in the US have timing gears from Taiwan, or wherever, in them. I would not be at all surprised if the block castings come from China, with final machining here. That's why the President's desire to see NAFTA killed might end up constipating US manufacturing rather than helping it.

Well said. Thanks.

[Fat Baxter]

I don't think so. It definitely protected HD so they could raise their prices but its effect upon the Japanese big CC engines was minimal.

What it did do was encourage the Japanese "big 3" to reduce the size of their engines and come out with better performing, yet cheaper, street machines. Since HD buyers generally don't buy on price and wouldn't be caught dead riding Japanese machines it had very little impact on the market overall.

I recall things a bit differently. The US imposed a large tariff on imported bikes 750cc and larger. In response, the Japanese started making machines around 600-650cc to squeeze in under the threshhold. But they also started wringing more performance out of those smaller engines to make up the performance gap: higher compression rations, four valves per cylinder, better metallurgy, five- and six-speed transmissions, lighter weight frames, etc.

When the tariff was lifted, the Japanese began building larger bikes again while also bringing along the better engine technology.

And thus was born the superbike era.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

When the tariff was lifted, the Japanese began building larger bikes again while also bringing along the better engine technology.

And thus was born the superbike era.
To HD's credit they asked for the tariff to be ended early. They had shaped up their quality and felt plenty confident of their ability to compete with the Japanese head on without the support of the tariffs.

When I worked for the Army the people on the assembly line at McAlester Army Ammunition Plant in OK said they could tell immediately when bomb bodies made by HD came down the line. They were built better than other producers' bomb bodies were.

[RinconRyder]

Yes, it's the W800 now tho I think they're no longer being produced but some stock still available.



https://kawasaki.com.au/shop/motorcycles/sport/2016-w800-se/

Stick an old Norton Featherbed frame under that motor and you would have a great ride!

[RinconRyder]

HD's AMF management nearly killed the breed as well.

[UtahPete]

HD's AMF management nearly killed the breed as well.
I'd forgotten about that. It was mystifying to me at the time. Couldn't understand the synergy with a bowling machine manufacturer.

[johnsimion]

The tariff is cheaper than using American labor. If we forced all manufacturers to make their goods in the US, only the top 1% could afford to buy anything. There's no simple answer to the world trade issues.

When did things change? Because when I grew up, almost everything was made in America and somehow we could still afford to buy stuff. It was that way for sure through the 1970s. In fact, it wasn't that many years ago that Wal-Mart was advertising all the products they carried that were made in America.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

The tariff is cheaper than using American labor. If we forced all manufacturers to make their goods in the US, only the top 1% could afford to buy anything. There's no simple answer to the world trade issues.
You're correct, no simple answers. I think it was about 20 years ago, but guess who the highest paid auto workers were. If you said US you would be wrong. It was Japan. Don't know how they compare today. Automation was the big difference in cost of producing cars, plus, and this may surprise many, medical insurance benefits. Don't know what the number is today but 10 or 15 years ago about $1000 of the cost of every car produced in the US was to pay medical costs for employees. For Japanese cars the cost is zero. That is one impact a national health program can have.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

I'd forgotten about that. It was mystifying to me at the time. Couldn't understand the synergy with a bowling machine manufacturer.
It was shortly after AMF sold HD to the investor group that the tariffs were put in place to help HD to recover.

[MurrayBrown]

http://www.theweek.co.uk/trade/88867/us-imposes-300-import-tariff-on-bombardier “This hypocrisy is appalling” the spokesperson added, “and it should be deeply troubling to any importer of large, complex, and highly engineered products.” could the Spyder be next ... ? :yikes:

This is old, old, news. Applies only to the Bombardier C Series aircraft.

[SpyderNeil]

This is old, old, news. Applies only to the Bombardier C Series aircraft.

Bombardier partnered with AirBus over a month ago to side step that ruling, so American buyers won't have to pay the tariff.
Also the Canadian Gov. has appeared to have cancelled their order for a bunch of F18 fighter jets from Boeing, so it looks like Boeing will loose a big sale over their actions!

Neil

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

This is old, old, news. Applies only to the Bombardier C Series aircraft.
There must be something fairly recent about it. The article is dated Oct 7, 2017.

[ARtraveler]

You're correct, no simple answers. I think it was about 20 years ago, but guess who the highest paid auto workers were. If you said US you would be wrong. It was Japan. Don't know how they compare today. Automation was the big difference in cost of producing cars, plus, and this may surprise many, medical insurance benefits. Don't know what the number is today but 10 or 15 years ago about $1000 of the cost of every car produced in the US was to pay medical costs for employees. For Japanese cars the cost is zero. That is one impact a national health program can have.

Today, it is about $3,000 per car--or higher.

[RinconRyder]

When did things change? Because when I grew up, almost everything was made in America and somehow we could still afford to buy stuff. It was that way for sure through the 1970s. In fact, it wasn't that many years ago that Wal-Mart was advertising all the products they carried that were made in America.

Things changed because the rest of the world recovered from the devastation of WWII. Among first world countries the USA was the only significant one with virtually no battle damage and its industries were in high gear as a result of producing war materiel for the previous six years. In addition, there was tremendous pent up demand from the US population for cars, houses and other material things that could not be bought during the war years - and civilians had money to pay for these things because of the mandatory wage and price controls during the war.

But during these same 1950's and 60's not everything was Made in America. If you wanted precision camera equipment it came from Germany. England produced quality musical instruments. Japan began with cheap toys, much as China is today, but quickly became the world leader in automobiles and took motorcycle manufacturing away from the Brits.

[UtahPete]

Things changed because the rest of the world recovered from the devastation of WWII. Among first world countries the USA was the only significant one with virtually no battle damage and its industries were in high gear as a result of producing war materiel for the previous six years. In addition, there was tremendous pent up demand from the US population for cars, houses and other material things that could not be bought during the war years - and civilians had money to pay for these things because of the mandatory wage and price controls during the war.

But during these same 1950's and 60's not everything was Made in America. If you wanted precision camera equipment it came from Germany. England produced quality musical instruments. Japan began with cheap toys, much as China is today, but quickly became the world leader in automobiles and took motorcycle manufacturing away from the Brits.
Well said.

[JerryB]

Hi Idaho,

Re: That is one impact a national health program can have.

About 30 yrs ago I read an article by this reporter who had been planning on writing a book about automobile manufacturing in this country. While interviewing the president of one of the big three, the president said that he was not in the automobile business, he was in the health care business. He said that more than 70% of his time was spent on trying to reduce costs of health insurance to his company.

Jerry Baumchen

[UtahPete]

Re: That is one impact a national health program can have. About 30 yrs ago I read an article by this reporter who had been planning on writing a book about automobile manufacturing in this country. While interviewing the president of one of the big three, the president said that he was not in the automobile business, he was in the health care business. He said that more than 70% of his time was spent on trying to reduce costs of health insurance to his company. Jerry Baumchen
Yep. The entire country would benefit, socially and economically, if we could have a rational, nonpartisan study of reducing the cost of health care in the USA. Too many special interests (mostly insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies) for that to ever happen.

[blitzkreig]

It was shortly after AMF sold HD to the investor group that the tariffs were put in place to help HD to recover.
In the end I believe that it was HD’s experiment with Total Quality Management (TQM) principles first put into Japan after WWII.

Once HD had the management tools that could make a machine that didn’t shake apart and leak oil like a sieve the US buyer came out of the woodwork and tariffs didn’t have a lot to do with it ...

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

In the end I believe that it was HD’s experiment with Total Quality Management (TQM) principles first put into Japan after WWII.

Once HD had the management tools that could make a machine that didn’t shake apart and leak oil like a sieve the US buyer came out of the woodwork and tariffs didn’t have a lot to do with it ...
You're mostly correct!! HD didn't experiment with TQM, they implemented TQM. That was the operating principle that got them back into the graces of the American motorcycle market while the tariffs shielded them from onerous Japanese competition. When HD had become fit and trim and in super fighting form and could hold their own is when they asked the administration, or Congress, or whoever, to rescind the tariffs.

[CrashDavis]

The article states: "The US Chamber of Commerce has rejected an appeal against the huge tariffs it has imposed..."

I must be missing something, as the COC is not a government agency, when does a private organization get to impose tariffs?

[UtahPete]

Things changed because the rest of the world recovered from the devastation of WWII. Among first world countries the USA was the only significant one with virtually no battle damage and its industries were in high gear as a result of producing war materiel for the previous six years. In addition, there was tremendous pent up demand from the US population for cars, houses and other material things that could not be bought during the war years - and civilians had money to pay for these things because of the mandatory wage and price controls during the war.

But during these same 1950's and 60's not everything was Made in America. If you wanted precision camera equipment it came from Germany. England produced quality musical instruments. Japan began with cheap toys, much as China is today, but quickly became the world leader in automobiles and took motorcycle manufacturing away from the Brits.

I never really thought about it that way, but it makes sense.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Things changed because the rest of the world recovered from the devastation of WWII. Among first world countries the USA was the only significant one with virtually no battle damage and its industries were in high gear as a result of producing war materiel for the previous six years. In addition, there was tremendous pent up demand from the US population for cars, houses and other material things that could not be bought during the war years - and civilians had money to pay for these things because of the mandatory wage and price controls during the war.

But during these same 1950's and 60's not everything was Made in America. If you wanted precision camera equipment it came from Germany. England produced quality musical instruments. Japan began with cheap toys, much as China is today, but quickly became the world leader in automobiles and took motorcycle manufacturing away from the Brits.
About 1969, two years after I graduated from college, the front cover of a Machine Design magazine had the title, "Invented in Europe, Developed in America, Produced in Japan"! It was interesting how product evolution took place by crossing from one side of the earth to the other. Cameras were one of the examples cited.

Not only did pent up demand fuel manufacturing growth, but so did high taxes. Personal income taxes topped out at over 90% in the 50's and 60's. I don't know how high corporate taxes were, but they were up there. So, one way to avoid paying taxes was invest income in manufacturing facilities. Interesting contrast to much of current thinking about taxes. Also, ready access to and abundant supply of, raw materials such as iron ore helped spur growth. Eventually, by the 80's, low wages, no pollution controls, and easier recovery of iron ore made iron ingots cheaper to bring into Pittsburgh from Brazil than smelted from iron ore from Minnesota.

[Docster]

When did things change? Because when I grew up, almost everything was made in America and somehow we could still afford to buy stuff. It was that way for sure through the 1970s. In fact, it wasn't that many years ago that Wal-Mart was advertising all the products they carried that were made in America.

I likely grew up in a different income class. We couldn't afford most non-essential consumer goodies until the Chinese imports started coming in. They were cheap in quality but also in cost.

[ARtraveler]

About 1969, two years after I graduated from college, the front cover of a Machine Design magazine had the title, "Invented in Europe, Developed in America, Produced in Japan"! It was interesting how product evolution took place by crossing from one side of the earth to the other. Cameras were one of the examples cited.

Not only did pent up demand fuel manufacturing growth, but so did high taxes. Personal income taxes topped out at over 90% in the 50's and 60's. I don't know how high corporate taxes were, but they were up there. So, one way to avoid paying taxes was invest income in manufacturing facilities. Interesting contrast to much of current thinking about taxes. Also, ready access to and abundant supply of, raw materials such as iron ore helped spur growth. Eventually, by the 80's, low wages, no pollution controls, and easier recovery of iron ore made iron ingots cheaper to bring into Pittsburgh from Brazil than smelted from iron ore from Minnesota.

MN solved that problem. They began using "Taconite," a derivative of iron ore. They mixed iron ore with something, and pelletized it. They have been shipping taconite to the steel mills since the late 60's. The Fitzgerald, as well as all other ore boats were loaded with taconite when it went down.

The open pit mines were still up and running in Northern MN (the iron range) when I left the area in 2001. Taconite was the product. :thumbup:

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

MN solved that problem. They began using "Taconite," a derivative of iron ore. They mixed iron ore with something, and pelletized it. They have been shipping taconite to the steel mills since the late 60's. The Fitzgerald, as well as all other ore boats were loaded with taconite when it went down.

The open pit mines were still up and running in Northern MN (the iron range) when I left the area in 2001. Taconite was the product. :thumbup:
MN iron is now less than 2% of global production at about 40 million tons annually. Production back in 1974 was 65 million tons and from 1941 to 1945 411 tons total.
http://minnesotabrown.com/2017/02/mn-fifth-largest-minerals-source.html
http://minnesotairon.org/education/history/

The comment about Brazil vs MN was made to me around 1984 by a guy whose specialty was installation and repair of exhaust flues of large industrial furnaces.

[ARtraveler]

MN iron is now less than 2% of global production at about 40 million tons annually. Production back in 1974 was 65 million tons and from 1941 to 1945 411 tons total.
http://minnesotabrown.com/2017/02/mn-fifth-largest-minerals-source.html
http://minnesotairon.org/education/history/

The comment about Brazil vs MN was made to me around 1984 by a guy whose specialty was installation and repair of exhaust flues of large industrial furnaces.

Thanks for posting the articles. Sad to see the decline though. That appears to be steady over the years. The iron range was a heck of a place and a large driver of the economy back in its heyday. Not so much anymore.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Nice to see that MN is still the 5th largest source of taconite in the US.
Minerals, not taconite. It falls behind coal, gravel and stone I believe.

[RinconRyder]

Not only did pent up demand fuel manufacturing growth, but so did high taxes. Personal income taxes topped out at over 90% in the 50's and 60's.

What you stated is technically true but very, VERY few people paid that percentage. If you check the tables on taxfoundation.org you will see the history of Federal tax rates from 1913 through 2013. One dollar today has the same buying power as 10 cents did in 1955. In 1955 the median income in the USA was $5,000 per year. That would mean that the average marginal tax rate was 26%. Actual percentage would depend on many different situations/deductions so it is safe to assume most people paid less than 26%.

What would be interesting is to know the actual tax monies paid then as compared to now. I remember sitting with my parents when they were filling out their returns sometime in the mid/late 50's and I don't remember any complaints or discussion about how much tax they paid (and my dad was known to complain about such things).

[Fat Baxter]

Things changed because the rest of the world recovered from the devastation of WWII. Among first world countries the USA was the only significant one with virtually no battle damage and its industries were in high gear as a result of producing war materiel for the previous six years. In addition, there was tremendous pent up demand from the US population for cars, houses and other material things that could not be bought during the war years - and civilians had money to pay for these things because of the mandatory wage and price controls during the war.

But during these same 1950's and 60's not everything was Made in America. If you wanted precision camera equipment it came from Germany. England produced quality musical instruments. Japan began with cheap toys, much as China is today, but quickly became the world leader in automobiles and took motorcycle manufacturing away from the Brits.

Another key thing here was that everyone other than the US had their industrial base flattened during the war. A large reason we came roaring back after WW2 was that we we the only country capable of building things. Everybody wanted (heck, needed) our stuff.

So, everyone else had to, over time, rebuild their factories, while we kept using what we had. The eventual result was that everyone else had newer, modern plants while the US was still using its older, less modern facilities.

Another factor was that some of the rebuilding economies (especially Japan) took the time to examine such outlandish concepts as statistical process control and management engineering concepts (these eventually matured into what we now call Total Quality Management). But these same practices were not implemented in the US for quite some time, especially in the auto industry, due largely to union resistance to change.

So, it was a combination of newer production facilities and better management practices that allowed foreign competition to eventually overtake the US and kick our butt.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Another factor was that some of the rebuilding economies (especially Japan) took the time to examine such outlandish concepts as statistical process control and management engineering concepts (these eventually matured into what we now call Total Quality Management). But these same practices were not implemented in the US for quite some time, especially in the auto industry, due largely to union resistance to change.
It wasn't just unions, if in fact they really were much of the resistance. Management attitude and the bean counters were a big part of the resistance. When I was working for the Army in Rock Island in 1984 to 1991 one of the new engineers came to us from General Motors. His specialty had been window crank/lift mechanisms. Engineers were directed to establish tolerances for manufacturing that would result in about a 7% reject rate. The bean counters said that resulted in the lowest overall manufacturing cost for the part! You can be sure not all of the defective parts were caught before they got put into cars.

[jcthorne]

Japan began with cheap toys, much as China is today, but quickly became the world leader in automobiles and took motorcycle manufacturing away from the Brits.

Lets just say I strongly disagree with the sentiment that Japan is the world leader in automobiles.

They are not the number one producer, they are not the world leader in automotive technology and their vehicles do not lead the highest quality or fuel economy roles.

The opposite is actually true. Japan leads one automotive segment by a large lead. They have the most automotive recalls.

Its a 1980s myth that is long overdue to disappear.

[Bob Denman]

JC,
Do you have a source for that information?

I'd like to like it :shocked:: I just need some verification... :thumbup:

[RinconRyder]

Lets just say I strongly disagree with the sentiment that Japan is the world leader in automobiles.


We are talking about production in the 70's, 80's and 90's but if you want 2016 numbers just look here: https://www.statista.com/statistics/277055/global-market-share-of-regions-on-auto-production/

China now leads the world in vehicle production but it is virtually for their domestic market only. Who is next? Japan of course. (https://www.statista.com/statistics/277055/global-market-share-of-regions-on-auto-production/)

[RinconRyder]

Japan leads one automotive segment by a large lead. They have the most automotive recalls.


That is almost totally due to the Takata airbag issue - a sub-system supplier. And a ton of other marques also suffered from this identical issue.

[missouriboy]

...Personal income taxes topped out at over 90% in the 50's and 60's...Back around 1970 when Bob Hope had his weekly variety show, I remember this passage from one of his stand-up intro monologues:

"People express envy to me about the amount of money I make. Yeah, right! My income tax is 90%, my agent gets 10%, and all the rest is pure gravy!

:clap:

[RinconRyder]

Back around 1970 when Bob Hope had his weekly variety show, I remember this passage from one of his stand-up intro monologues:

"People express envy to me about the amount of money I make. Yeah, right! My income tax is 90%, my agent gets 10%, and all the rest is pure gravy!

:clap:

It's a good joke but only partially true. Agent costs would be deducted before calculating his tax amount.

At his death Hope's estate was estimated to be worth between $400M and $700M. Not bad for someone who was taking home only 10% of earnings.

From the book: "Bob Hope: The Road Well Traveled": To get around the high personal income taxes Hope formed multiple companies including "Hope Records", "Hope Enterprises" and "Hope Corporation". In 1950 Hope was paying about 50% of his personal earnings (est. $3-$4 million dollars per year) in taxes. Those are in 1950 dollars or about 10 times what it would be worth in today's money.

[missouriboy]

It's a good joke but only partially true. Agent costs would be deducted before calculating his tax amount...Well, of cooouuuuuurrrrse!! And he didn't pay 90% on the first taxable dollar, either. Everybody knows that, and that's what makes it funny.

[RinconRyder]

Well, of cooouuuuuurrrrse!! And he didn't pay 90% on the first taxable dollar, either. Everybody knows that, and that's what makes it funny.

And that was the major problem with Hope. His crap wasn't funny.

[Lurker]

I too was a big fan of the inline fours. My '71 Honda 750 Four (slightly modified) could beat the pants off any HD made in those days.

But the UJM were just following a trend by trying to copy HD's Potato Twins. It didn't succeed. Both Yamaha and Kawasaki did however sell a bunch of their 80ish vertical twins ala Triumph, BSA etc. So sometimes copying but producing a better product does work. I owned a '81 Yammy 650 Twin which, when I saw it last, had well over 100,000 miles on it and the then owner was about to take it cross country for the 4th or 5th time. I think Kawasaki still sells their version of the Triumph Bonneville 650 twin.

Pretty sure those old 750 fours would beat current day HD's (I own a Road King so I know)

I remember back when I worked at the Harley shop and HD stock was selling for 5 cents a share just prior to AMF buying HD. The US tried tariffs against the Asian market then but it didn't seem to do much then and probably will not do much now. There is always a way around.
Best practice seems to be build better and cheaper and customers will come.