Flag and National Anthem protests

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

I decided to start a new thread rather than leave this in the NFL thread.

The question behind all this controversy about standing for the national anthem, and for which there is no one clear cut answer, is, "What the does the Flag represent?" Is it only the good, or does it also represent some of the bad in our country?

Here's a list of some of my ideas of what the flag represents to different people.

The positives:
Freedom from a dictatorial government.
Freedom to worship as we want.
Freedom to speak as we want.
Opportunity to climb as high in the economic world as we are able.
Freedom to marry whomever we want (in the traditional sense).
Freedom to form a long term loving relationship with whomever we want.
You can add many other items to this list.

The negatives:
Corporate moguls free to pay however little they can get away with even if it's so little a family cannot live on it.
Insurance companies free to discriminate in how they provide insurance.
Police forces who are often unrestrained in enforcing peace and safety.
A military that often destroys indiscriminately in an effort to subdue a real or perceived enemy.
Banks that are free to charge onerous interest rates and fees upon selected customers.
Food industry leaders who are free to inject all sorts of chemicals into our food products.
A government run by politicians bought and paid for by the super rich.
And on and on.

What I am wanting to get across is that the flag represents many different things to many different people. More than likely most of us focus on those aspects of American life that we agree with or enjoy, as being what the flag represents. Aspects of American life that others see as oppressive are seen by them as being represented by the flag. There are many ways to protest, but some believe the most effective way to make their displeasure clear to Americans as whole, and to our Government specifically, is to show disrespect to the flag. One of most intense times of protesting our Government's actions was during the Viet Nam War. As you all know, much of that protest was in the form of burning the American Flag. Subsequently the US Supreme Court upheld the citizens right to burn the flag as a legitimate expression of free speech. Many, many, Americans vehemently decried that action, just like now with the NFL situation.

If you see the flag in terms of being a symbol of our freedom from tyranny and freedom to live as we want, you will naturally see the protests as attacking those values. If you see the flag as representing the wanton forceful suppression of a minority, and you understand that viewpoint, then the protests are justified.

As with all things in life, THERE ARE NO EASY ANSWERS! Both sides are right, both sides are wrong.

Peace, and may God Bless America, warts and all! :thumbup:

[cptjam]

If you don't love and respect this country, I will help you pack! Go somewhere else that offers the freedom, security, consideration and benefits that the US does! Yes, we cherish freedom of speech. We have that right. Remember, freedom was paid for with the blood of patriots! To dishonor those brave men and women who laid down their lives to protect America by some entertainer or athlete who has never contributed to our nation is crazy! If the protest is police brutality, find a venue that targets that. Disrespect my country, earn my scorn. You play a game. Play that game. Meanwhile, you play that game in the United States of America. So, the society that allows you to play that game for our entertainment expects you to respect that. Pretty simple. When an entire stadium boo's when the players disrespect the country, get a clue. Our nation is at war. There are forces of evil that would love to destroy our country. Now is not a great time to ignore that fact. Players, wake up!

[MRH]

Personally, I stand for the anthem.

The reason I stand is because I live in country that protects our right to free speech, no matter if I disagree with that speech or not.

I've noticed that those on both sides of the political spectrum people complain that they are bothered or offended by the peaceful expression of ideas they disagree with, be it choosing not to stand for an anthem, or a university protest against a conservative speaker.

We all disagree and agree with different aspects of our governmental policies, and the beauty of this country is that we have the freedom to work within our laws to create change. Our country was founded, in part, on that ideal. When the protests hurt others or become violent, then the conversation truly changes.

Until that point, I think the fact that an action as simple as choosing not to stand can provoke conversation and debate is a positive aspect of our democracy. This country is both great and deeply flawed, and has been throughout our history. At the same time Americans were giving up their lives on the shores of Europe in WWII, in many areas of our own country we were persecuting those at home that happened to have skin indicating that their ancestors were born closer to the equator than those that make up the majority of our country. It's complicated, and a discussion always worth having, no matter how uncomfortable it may be.

Before we get upset for a political statement, perhaps it is best to understand it and to consider and debate the relative merits of the reasons behind that statement.

[vided]

As is the saying
154274

[PrairieSpyder]

If you don't love and respect this country, I will help you pack! Go somewhere else that offers the freedom, security, consideration and benefits that the US does! Yes, we cherish freedom of speech. We have that right. Remember, freedom was paid for with the blood of patriots! To dishonor those brave men and women who laid down their lives to protect America by some entertainer or athlete who has never contributed to our nation is crazy! If the protest is police brutality, find a venue that targets that. Disrespect my country, earn my scorn. You play a game. Play that game. Meanwhile, you play that game in the United States of America. So, the society that allows you to play that game for our entertainment expects you to respect that. Pretty simple. When an entire stadium boo's when the players disrespect the country, get a clue. Our nation is at war. There are forces of evil that would love to destroy our country. Now is not a great time to ignore that fact. Players, wake up!

:agree:

And it's not just disrespectful to those who have and/or are willing to fight for us in war. It offends us all.

I was in Europe at a dinner with people from several European countries. Many of them noted how Americans honor the flag, and how unique that is compared to other countries. The British flag is the standard of the monarch, and anti-monarchists don't revere it. Most European countries are fairly homogeneous (at least, at that time) and their flag was almost superfluous as a representation. But, as an Austrian gal pointed out, the USA is composed of people of many races and ethnicities, and the nation includes a vast geography with regional identities; the flag represents all that Americans have in common and the identity they share - no matter what.

Not honoring the flag and anthem is dishonoring all of us. Not the government, but all the people who are Americans.

[PrairieSpyder]

. . . choosing not to stand can provoke conversation and debate is a positive aspect of our democracy . . .

We seem to do nothing but converse and debate! :gaah: The flag and the anthem is the time to put it aside for two minutes and remember what we have in common.


As is the saying
154274

:agree:

[BoilerAnimal]

As is the saying
154274




Right up there with "My country, right or wrong!"

[WilderThomas]

I decided to start a new thread rather than leave this in the NFL thread.

The question behind all this controversy about standing for the national anthem, and for which there is no one clear cut answer, is, "What the does the Flag represent?" Is it only the good, or does it also represent some of the bad in our country?

Here's a list of some of my ideas of what the flag represents to different people.

The positives:
Freedom from a dictatorial government.
Freedom to worship as we want.
Freedom to speak as we want.
Opportunity to climb as high in the economic world as we are able.
Freedom to marry whomever we want (in the traditional sense).
Freedom to form a long term loving relationship with whomever we want.
You can add many other items to this list.

The negatives:
Corporate moguls free to pay however little they can get away with even if it's so little a family cannot live on it.
Insurance companies free to discriminate in how they provide insurance.
Police forces who are often unrestrained in enforcing peace and safety.
A military that often destroys indiscriminately in an effort to subdue a real or perceived enemy.
Banks that are free to charge onerous interest rates and fees upon selected customers.
Food industry leaders who are free to inject all sorts of chemicals into our food products.
A government run by politicians bought and paid for by the super rich.
And on and on.

What I am wanting to get across is that the flag represents many different things to many different people. More than likely most of us focus on those aspects of American life that we agree with or enjoy, as being what the flag represents. Aspects of American life that others see as oppressive are seen by them as being represented by the flag. There are many ways to protest, but some believe the most effective way to make their displeasure clear to Americans as whole, and to our Government specifically, is to show disrespect to the flag. One of most intense times of protesting our Government's actions was during the Viet Nam War. As you all know, much of that protest was in the form of burning the American Flag. Subsequently the US Supreme Court upheld the citizens right to burn the flag as a legitimate expression of free speech. Many, many, Americans vehemently decried that action, just like now with the NFL situation.

If you see the flag in terms of being a symbol of our freedom from tyranny and freedom to live as we want, you will naturally see the protests as attacking those values. If you see the flag as representing the wanton forceful suppression of a minority, and you understand that viewpoint, then the protests are justified.

As with all things in life, THERE ARE NO EASY ANSWERS! Both sides are right, both sides are wrong.

Peace, and may God Bless America, warts and all! :thumbup:

As one who has served in one of the armed forces for 20 years, I care extremely little for the disrespectful stand, or the opinions that some overpaid athlete or entertainer might take. They don't represent ME. If they want to publicly protest, let them do so, off the playing field, court, stage, or screen. Those people who pay to see these people perform, are paying to see an athlete or performer do what they do best. Not put on a demonstration of public protest.

[asp125]

But do you put down your beer and nachos and stand at attention when they play it on TV at home?

[classicvw]

We are free to behave pretty much as we want to, as long as we're not breaking any laws or infringing on another's civil rights, and that includes being an asshat.

The same country that allows them to protest, also allows me to call them out for doing so in that manner, and allows me to withhold my hard earned money and not spend it on any NFL game, nor on any advertiser on the TV broadcasts.

[ofdave]

I have never heard or seen that the flag represents a negative to someone who believes in the country.
Yes, we have a past which includes events we should not be proud of-but events we have learned from.

The "negatives" listed by the OP seem more to be his personal issues with our society.
I find connecting them to what our flag represents to be offensive and disgusting.
On this issue I cannot see both sides being right.
You love this country warts and all. You work to repair what might be broken.
You do not desecrate the flag in the process of making your position known.
I have no respect for those who perform their theatrics at the expense of honoring the flag.

Were the kneelers sincere about what they purport to believe in, they would be active in making the changes they say are needed rather than merely posing for the media.

A final comment, this is a forum about Spyders.
Is this type of topic really good for all of us?
After reading some posts in this thread and others, I find I no longer want to hear what some members have to say about anything.

[MRH]

We are free to behave pretty much as we want to, as long as we're not breaking any laws or infringing on another's civil rights, and that includes being an asshat.

The same country that allows them to protest, also allows me to call them out for doing so in that manner, and allows me to withhold my hard earned money and not spend it on any NFL game, nor on any advertiser on the TV broadcasts.

It does.

And then it gets really complex. To penalize that player, when others act with you, there is a lot of collateral damage, ranging from the guy who shares your views and simply runs the hot dog concession at the stadium (and is in the middle of a ten year lease) to the company your daughter works for who's employer's ad agency included the big game in their advertising buy because they wanted to connect with people just like you.

Perhaps it's time that both sides of the political isle tried to stop their knee-jerk reactions to non-violent statements and try to understand what sits beneath their actions.

What these players want to call attention to by not standing for a symbol, may be quite different than the values and meaning that others infuse the same symbol with. It is always complicated. Feelings of marginalization and oppression tend to push people to extremes, and our political system now seems to be dominated by those extremes within both parties.

When we reduce our opinions to slogans and ultimatums, we tend to check our brains as the proverbial door.

[wyliec]

A final comment, this is a forum about Spyders.
Is this type of topic really good for all of us?
After reading some posts in this thread and others, I find I no longer want to hear what some members have to say about anything.

This is the Off Topic Board. There are other forums in spyderlovers to talk about spyders. I took a couple of weeks off because I felt like you about no longer wanting to hear what some have to say. But, here I am again, and believe it or not, no one is on my ignore list.

[MRH]

This is the Off Topic Board. There are other forums in spyderlovers to talk about spyders. I took a couple of weeks off because I felt like you about no longer wanting to hear what some have to say. But, here I am again, and believe it or not, no one is on my ignore list.

It's often where we don't want to hear what others have to say that we have the most to learn. Even balanced news is difficult to find - even the effort of finding balance has been given up in the quest for ratings. Even Facebook will help us to tune out the ideas of those who disagree with us, and our political discussion has been reduced to memes. Schools no longer teach critical thinking, and our political parties are more interested in undermining each other than serving their constituent's needs.

These players are not desecrating the flag; it remains undamaged simply because they chose not to stand for it. They have not turned their backs on it. They are simply provoking a discussion that they believe needs to take place. A kneel is also a sign of respect, but by choosing a different action they have successfully called attention to where they believe respect is lacking. There is no hate within their speech, but there is distress.

We must ask ourselves why the protest is so painful, and in that answer I think we can better understand where these players are coming from. The pain that we feel at their failure to stand, is the pain that they feel that has prompted them not to stand.

[UtahPete]

We seem to do nothing but converse and debate! The flag and the anthem is the time to put it aside for two minutes and remember what we have in common.

With all due respect, I think the protests are about what we don't have in common, but should. "One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all" is not something all 300 million Americans agree on.

Just as an example; I don't think Puerto Ricans believe they are part of one undivided nation these days. Non-theists don't believe we are subservient to 'god'. The people of Ferguson and other places wracked by race riots don't believe there is liberty and justice for all.

In a country as large and diverse and dynamic as ours, there are going to be winners and losers, insiders and outsiders, inclusive and exclusive groups, etc. Protests are a way for those who feel disenfranchised in some way to let their feelings be known; they're not acts of anarchy or disrespect for their country.

That's what I believe anyway.

[UtahPete]

And it's not just disrespectful to those who have and/or are willing to fight for us in war. It offends us all. Not honoring the flag and anthem is dishonoring all of us. Not the government, but all the people who are Americans.

Sorry, but it doesn't offend or disrespect me. What offends and disrespects me as an American veteran is the idea that if I don't comport to the standards of conduct and beliefs that others hold sacred then I am unpatriotic and should just leave the country.

It offends my sensibilities that there are so many in this country who seem not to understand what 'freedom' under the constitution really means and that it is the safe exercise of those freedoms by each individual that make us great, not slavish devotion to symbols or dogma.

[Firefly]

What part of "Zero Tolerance- NO Political Post." is confusing?

This isn't the place to discuss this kind of thing and no good ever comes from it....

[Zip]

I wanted to respond to one aspect of the OP statement.

First off let me say I always stand for the flag and the National Anthem.

Now as far as the NFL or any other professional sports team. You are a paid employee doing a job. Where does that money come from ticket sales and sponsors. So that money comes from your fans. The stadiums provided for you to do your job in are paid for by local and federal government and sponsors. Again from your fans either by purchasing from those sponsors or from tax dollars. And you are using the media to convey your message also paid for by your fans. We do not care what your political view is we want to watch you do your job. and if you are going to continue to try and force us to watch this childish behavior then we will no longer watch your games, buy your merchandise, buy from sponsors who continue to support you , and petition our governments to stop spending our tax money to support you.

[classicvw]

It does.

And then it gets really complex. To penalize that player, when others act with you, there is a lot of collateral damage, ranging from the guy who shares your views and simply runs the hot dog concession at the stadium (and is in the middle of a ten year lease) to the company your daughter works for who's employer's ad agency included the big game in their advertising buy because they wanted to connect with people just like you.



Not really too complex. I had a second job at a sports complex that included an NFL stadium. ALL employees were subject to working or not working a particular game depending on the expected attendance for those games. Same is true for concerts and wrestling, and monster trucks. There could be 10,000 sold tickets or 80,000. The guy that runs the hot dog concession schedules just enough workers to work depending on the attendance.

The players want whatever the hell they want, I have lost track, so it's OK for them to act, but not OK for me to act? That seems to me to be what you are saying.
There seems to be a protest of the month. Two months ago it was the Confederate flag, last month it was the Confederate monuments, now it's what? the National Anthem.

[UtahPete]

I wanted to respond to one aspect of the OP statement. First off let me say I always stand for the flag and the National Anthem. Now as far as the NFL or any other professional sports team. You are a paid employee doing a job. Where does that money come from ticket sales and sponsors. So that money comes from your fans. The stadiums provided for you to do your job in are paid for by local and federal government and sponsors. Again from your fans either by purchasing from those sponsors or from tax dollars. And you are using the media to convey your message also paid for by your fans. We do not care what your political view is we want to watch you do your job. and if you are going to continue to try and force us to watch this childish behavior then we will no longer watch your games, buy your merchandise, buy from sponsors who continue to support you , and petition our governments to stop spending our tax money to support you.

Seems to me this is a dispute among sports fans. For the rest of us, it has NOTHING to do with patriotism, so let it go already.

[CrashDavis]

My two cents:

This issue is not, and has never been, a First Amendment free-speech issue. That only applies to the government, and I don't know of a single government entity that has tried to stop or punish any of the participants. That includes a certain high ranking official who called them out for it, he has not tried to use the government to stop it or punish anyone for it, he said the corporation called the NFL should do it. But, that private entity is NOT required to follow the first amendment. It is free to set it's rules anyway it sees fit (within other aspects of the law).

But even if this was a First Amendment issue, nowhere does it say that I have to listen or watch it, or approve or support it; nor do I have to like the NFL's rules or how they enforce them (or not). Not necessarily in this thread, but in others people have, and a lot of pundits elsewhere, have tried to say or imply that I do. No, I don't.

I basically quit caring about pro sports several years ago when we had several instances (in the big three: NFL, NBA, and MLB) of millionaires fighting billionaires about not getting paid enough. What started in the NFL and has already spread to the NBA, has just confirmed my belief in not caring.

Are there things wrong in the country and should be addressed? Definitely! But there has never been a country in history that has come as far as we have in trying to fix its faults. If you think you need to do something to point out those faults, then do it the right way and at the right time. When I'm paying you (by buying tickets, buying your sponsor's product, or some other way) to entertain me (and you're getting paid very well) that is NOT the time or the place. Don't be surprised that I take exception to it and quit paying you.

[Zip]

Seems to me this is a dispute among sports fans. For the rest of us, it has NOTHING to do with patriotism, so let it go already.

I will let it go when they do

[RinconRyder]

I don't have a problem with people making a social statement by kneeling when the flag flutters by or the national anthem is played. We have freedom of speech in this country and that guarantees their right. I would have a big problem should someone decide to burn the flag or stomp on it showing obvious disrespect.

The USA is not perfect and there will always be people who try to incite others by displays of public outrage but keep it civil and there is no problem with me. After all, our national ensign is useful not only as a patriotic symbol but is used as a guide to used car lots and houses for sale.

Just this morning I ate breakfast in a little cafe which had a little flag sticking out of a mason jar on everyone's table. I don't know what the owners were trying to say by doing this but it doesn't matter because it obviously was not offensive.

Let's all dial the outrage down a couple of clicks before going off in a rant. After all, if we all were to emulate our current president it would make a pretty awful place to live.

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

since football IS an american sport you would think they would have more respect for the country that overpays them by millions.

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

The flag represents freedom.
We are free to express ourselves the way we wish to as long as we don't hurt others.
Athletes are free to disrespect the national anthem by taking a knee.
Of course the team owners are also free to fire those same athletes should they choose to.
The owners are also free to support the protests as they wish.
We the fans, are free to boycott the games and the teams, or the movies, or anything else that we choose.
This is, after all, ENTERTAINMENT. It's not a necessity of life.
Read a book. Watch NETFLIX. Listen to some Old Time Radio, such as The Lone Ranger or The Shadow.
We can vote with our feet. If enough of us stop watching, then the behaviors will change.
If enough of us continue to watch, then the behaviors won't change, and just like elections, we get what we deserve.

so am i free to yell out "hey n***er get off your knee and show some respect" without any fear of reprisal from fans, players or
stadium?

[ARtraveler]

What part of Patriotism don't you understand? :thumbup:

[asp125]

If the flag and anthem are more important to you than so much else that is wrong with the country, you have your priorities mixed up. As a group of riders I often see the sentiment here "we don't care what you ride as long as you ride", and the wish that Spyder owners are inclusive rather than divisive. This thread proves otherwise. All this bitching and moaning does is to further divide forum members, something we need less of, not more.

Remember, opinions are like a$$h--es, everyone has one and they all stink.

[d.o.spyder-rts]

so am i free to yell out "hey n***er get off your knee and show some respect" without any fear of reprisal from fans, players or
stadium?
An emotional subject for sure. Free to yell it, yes, probably not the most intelligent thing to yell out in public. I'm sure there would be some form of reprisal and you will probably be labeled a racist. As American citizens we have the right to protest. But as stated in another post it needs to be done in the proper venue and should be done in a manner that doesn't show disrespect to anyone or anything-flag included. Not easily accomplished. Dale

[ThreeWheels]

so am i free to yell out "hey n***er get off your knee and show some respect" without any fear of reprisal from fans, players or
stadium?

Did you read my post ??
You are free to say what you will.
Others are free to react to it, as long as there is no violence.
If you behave like an idiot, people around you are free to treat you like an idiot.
If you act like a hero, people are free to treat you like a hero.
We also have the right to use the ignore button.
Yes, making a comment here was foolhardy.
I wonder if I can ignore the entire thread ??

[UtahPete]

I am proud of my country. I stand for the National Anthem. Enforce the rules as already written in the NFL handbook. What part of Patriotism don't you understand? :thumbup:

I love my country, but I'm not always proud of it. I stand for the national anthem when it's played, I even sing it as best I can. I am silent when others are reciting the pledge of allegiance to the flag, because it doesn't reflect my beliefs at all and sticks in my craw.

Am I unpatriotic? Should I leave the country rather than protest when it fails to live up to the ideals espoused in the constitution and on the statue of liberty?

If not for protesters, we would still be under British rule. If not for protesters, heretics would still be burned at the stake. Protests by the minority against abuses by the majority takes courage; it is as American and patriotic as we can get, I believe.

The really confusing thing to me is - what does any of this have to do with what happens at a football game; how is it possible to confuse the two? What would Ben Franklin have thought of all this I have to wonder...

[oldguyinTX]

I am staying out of this one.

[47ModelBrit]

.... The British flag is the standard of the monarch, and anti-monarchists don't revere it.....

Sorry but I have to inject a technical correction. The Union Jack is the national flag of the UK. The royal standard is totally different.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Jack
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Standard_of_the_United_Kingdom

But yes, anti-monarchists of course don't like anything to do with the monarchy! Weren't there some like that around here a couple of hundred years ago or so! I think they mentioned them briefly when I was at school in England!!!! :joke:

[Motorcycledave]

I have been to many many other countries and as far as I am concerned
none of them except Canada even come close to being as good as the
good ole U.S.A.
go ahead travel the world and see for yourself, we may not be perfect
but we are way ahead of all the others, or anyone who does not stand for the flag
and or the national anthem, wants to burn the flag, are disrespectful of our country
in any way, can leave and go live in any of the other countries on earth.

[Firefly]

Can't believe this thread hasn't been yanked..... it clearly should be.

Freedom of speech (which is specifically between the government and citizens) doesn't mean freedom from the consequences of that speech.

Those claiming 'protesting needs to be done in the proper venue and should be done in a proper manner' obviously don't know what the word 'protest' means.

So just what IS the proper venue and why do you get to decide when and where it is appropriate for others to protest?

Anyone remember Tommie Smith and John Carlos protesting during the anthem at the Olympics in Mexico?
They were not so popular for doing that but are now considered heroes who stood up for black rights.

This whole thing is ridiculous. I thought the liberals were supposed to be the oversensitive 'snowflakes'... sure seems the other way around with people getting so bent over kneeling during a song. :rolleyes:
And the idea this is somehow disrespectful to the military is beyond ridiculous....

NFL players generally didn't even leave the locker room during the anthem until 2009.
I personally have never understood playing the anthem at sporting events and frankly feel it degrades any meaning it ever had. Olympics? Sure.. makes sense. Government affairs, etc.... yup. Silly sporting events? Please.
I doubt most complaining about this ever put their nachos and beer down and stand during it.

Still think this entire thread is political and should be pulled......

[canamjhb]

If you don't love and respect this country, I will help you pack! Go somewhere else that offers the freedom, security, consideration and benefits that the US does! Yes, we cherish freedom of speech. We have that right. Remember, freedom was paid for with the blood of patriots! To dishonor those brave men and women who laid down their lives to protect America by some entertainer or athlete who has never contributed to our nation is crazy! If the protest is police brutality, find a venue that targets that. Disrespect my country, earn my scorn. You play a game. Play that game. Meanwhile, you play that game in the United States of America. So, the society that allows you to play that game for our entertainment expects you to respect that. Pretty simple. When an entire stadium boo's when the players disrespect the country, get a clue. Our nation is at war. There are forces of evil that would love to destroy our country. Now is not a great time to ignore that fact. Players, wake up!

I agree with every thing said here.... word for word. And I will, and have, defended others rights to have different opinions. (USMC 1966-1969)

[UtahPete]

I have been to many many other countries and as far as I am concerned none of them except Canada even come close to being as good as the good ole U.S.A. go ahead travel the world and see for yourself, we may not be perfect but we are way ahead of all the others, or anyone who does not stand for the flag and or the national anthem, wants to burn the flag, are disrespectful of our country in any way, can leave and go live in any of the other countries on earth.

We're not leaving just because you think we don't belong here, Dave. I'm sorry you feel so threatened by dissent. Sad.

[UtahPete]

It is in the NFL rules for all players to stand for the National Anthem.

Then, I guess the NFL should address that violation of their rules. But, it has nothing to do with patriotism or lack thereof, does it?

[UtahPete]

Wow! Now I have seen it all. Being dissed because I am Patriotic, proud of, and love my country. PS. That is not going to change either. Say what you will. I guess we have come a long way.

Expressing a different point of view isn't 'dissing' anyone. Why take it personally? We're discussing ideas, I thought.

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

Can't believe this thread hasn't been yanked..... it clearly should be.

Freedom of speech (which is specifically between the government and citizens) doesn't mean freedom from the consequences of that speech.

Those claiming 'protesting needs to be done in the proper venue and should be done in a proper manner' obviously don't know what the word 'protest' means.

So just what IS the proper venue and why do you get to decide when and where it is appropriate for others to protest?

Anyone remember Tommie Smith and John Carlos protesting during the anthem at the Olympics in Mexico?
They were not so popular for doing that but are now considered heroes who stood up for black rights.

This whole thing is ridiculous. I thought the liberals were supposed to be the oversensitive 'snowflakes'... sure seems the other way around with people getting so bent over kneeling during a song. :rolleyes:
And the idea this is somehow disrespectful to the military is beyond ridiculous....

NFL players generally didn't even leave the locker room during the anthem until 2009.
I personally have never understood playing the anthem at sporting events and frankly feel it degrades any meaning it ever had. Olympics? Sure.. makes sense. Government affairs, etc.... yup. Silly sporting events? Please.
I doubt most complaining about this ever put their nachos and beer down and stand during it.

Still think this entire thread is political and should be pulled......

Tommie Smith and John Carlos protesting during the anthem at the Olympics in Mexico?
They were not so popular for doing that but are now considered heroes who stood up for black rights.

Heroes!? Are you kidding, how many of todays black youth remember them or care, they are more interested in scoop doggie do or
ice anyone. They were booed and banned by the ioc after that disgraceful act. You may not agree or even trust our leaders and i don't but i still show respect to our country but not to our politicians who represent themselves.
Now if they want to stay on their knees then it better be from getting up from a tackle or in the locker room while another player is
changing.
SHOW RESPECT TO OUR COUNTRY
I do believe in the ideology of what the u.s. stands for

[classicvw]

so am i free to yell out "hey n***er get off your knee and show some respect" without any fear of reprisal from fans, players or
stadium?

Are you really asking that question or just feel like stirring the pot some more?

[classicvw]

It is in the NFL rules for all players to stand for the National Anthem.

It is not in the NFL 'rules'. It is NFL policy. Policies can be enforced, policies can be changed from day to day, or those in power can decide to not enforce a certain policy, which is what's happening in this instance.

[Firefly]

Tommie Smith and John Carlos protesting during the anthem at the Olympics in Mexico?
They were not so popular for doing that but are now considered heroes who stood up for black rights.

Heroes!? Are you kidding, how many of todays black youth remember them or care, they are more interested in scoop doggie do or
ice anyone. They were booed and banned by the ioc after that disgraceful act. You may not agree or even trust our leaders and i don't but i still show respect to our country but not to our politicians who represent themselves.
Now if they want to stay on their knees then it better be from getting up from a tackle or in the locker room while another player is
changing.
SHOW RESPECT TO OUR COUNTRY
I do believe in the ideology of what the u.s. stands for

Plenty of veiled racism in your comments. It's obvious you don't know much about black culture or you'd know that Tommie Smith and John Carlos are considered heroes. Just because they aren't seen that way in your perfect white world doesn't mean others don't see them that way.

Young black males are being systematically targeted and shot by police. You might be okay with that, but many of us are not.

The kneeling isn't disrespecting our country.... please.....it's a stupid football game and a pretty lame song as well.. guess that makes me unpatriotic....:roflblack:

[Firefly]

Those of you 'offended' by the kneeling....

A question.....

How upset did you get and how much did you protest and boycott over these actual violations of the flag code by these America haters? Or I guess many call them 'patriots'.

154313154314154315

[asp125]

If someone disrespects the flag etc, I give them the side eye and shake my head and move on. It doesn't affect my own patriotism what someone else thinks. I could care less, F*** 'em. Is your ego so fragile that you throw a fit if some stranger has a different point of view? The country is moving towards intolerance of dissent, free thought, and democracy if you ask me. Pretty soon even those rights that were fought for since the Boston Tea Party will be gone. That would be a sad day when we must all toe the line and obey our dear leader. You want a country that must act the same, think the same, believe the same? I have some suggestions: North Korea, Iran etc.

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

Are you really asking that question or just feel like stirring the pot some more?

yes i truly am asking that question, if others can say or do as they think even if it offends some shouldn't i have the same right
to express myself?

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

Plenty of veiled racism in your comments. It's obvious you don't know much about black culture or you'd know that Tommie Smith and John Carlos are considered heroes. Just because they aren't seen that way in your perfect white world doesn't mean others don't see them that way.

Young black males are being systematically targeted and shot by police. You might be okay with that, but many of us are not.

The kneeling isn't disrespecting our country.... please.....it's a stupid football game and a pretty lame song as well.. guess that makes me unpatriotic....:roflblack:

heroes by who? you ask 10 black people if they ever heard of those guys and i would be surprised if 5 actually did and 2 knew what
they did.
As for your "Young black males are being systematically targeted and shot by police" why don't you check statistics on who is shot
and killed by police before you make stupid, yes stupid ignorant comments. Oh by the way i don't think you are unpatriotic just an
a**h**e.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Please, all you guys were staying quite civil, until the last few posts. You want me to kill this thread? Keep it up.

[Firefly]

heroes by who? you ask 10 black people if they ever heard of those guys and i would be surprised if 5 actually did and 2 knew what
they did.
As for your "Young black males are being systematically targeted and shot by police" why don't you check statistics on who is shot
and killed by police before you make stupid, yes stupid ignorant comments. Oh by the way i don't think you are unpatriotic just an
a**h**e.

Wow.. classy.....

It's not about the numbers.... it's about the facts.. which I've researched plenty. As white males we generally don't worry when pulled over by cops that we'll be shot and killed. We don't generally get followed around a store for the color of our skin. We can walk into a bank dressed like a slob and still get treated well and a bank loan. The same cannot be said for many of our African American citizens.

Until you accept and understand your white privilege, there's no hope for you... and I'm guess you'll never accept the fact that is white privilege.

You win the Classy Spyder guy award today..... :firstplace::firstplace::firstplace::firstplace::f irstplace::firstplace::firstplace:

[jcthorne]

Young black males are being systematically targeted and shot by police. You might be okay with that, but many of us are not.




Sorry but its the belief by many that this statement is true because it has been so widely broadcast by the mainstream media solely to stir this discontent that is the real basis of the the problem. Its NOT a true statement. Yes there are clashes between black males (and other minorities) and police that are a result of cultural and behavioral differences but to assume its the police that are systematically seeking out black males for murder is flat out wrong. Until both sides recognize this and work to correct the real cause, it will not get fixed.

Kneeling to disrespect the flag and the country you are supposed to be a part of only makes the fallacy grow.

I likely should never have clicked on this thread....

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

Wow.. classy.....

It's not about the numbers.... it's about the facts.. which I've researched plenty. As white males we generally don't worry when pulled over by cops that we'll be shot and killed. We don't generally get followed around a store for the color of our skin. We can walk into a bank dressed like a slob and still get treated well and a bank loan. The same cannot be said for many of our African American citizens.

Until you accept and understand your white privilege, there's no hope for you... and I'm guess you'll never accept the fact that is white privilege.

You win the Classy Spyder guy award today..... :firstplace::firstplace::firstplace::firstplace::f irstplace::firstplace::firstplace:

As an african american that did not grow up with your white privilege i really wish i knew what you know. perhaps unlike you i worked
for all i have, my wife & i paid for our wedding. now cut the crap and live in ny so you can experience the real world.
Pull up your pants, show the officer your license when requested and stop talking back so as to make him feel more comfortable
when he pulls you over for the broken tail light that you know you have had for the past 6 months which is the reason you don't have
a current inspection sticker.

[wyliec]

Please, all you guys were staying quite civil, until the last few posts. You want me to kill this thread? Keep it up.

I'd say kill it. No one is going to be swayed to change their mind based on what they read here. The issue of the day has run its course.

[Firefly]

As an african american that did not grow up with your white privilege i really wish i knew what you know. perhaps unlike you i worked
for all i have, my wife & i paid for our wedding. now cut the crap and live in ny so you can experience the real world.
Pull up your pants, show the officer your license when requested and stop talking back so as to make him feel more comfortable
when he pulls you over for the broken tail light that you know you have had for the past 6 months which is the reason you don't have
a current inspection sticker.

This has nothing to do with you paying for your own things, working hard, etc....

Again.. you obviously don't understand what white privilege is.

All you have are continued insults towards those who have differing opinions. #classy
Judge a complete stranger as someone who hasn't worked? Yeah.. because building and owning my own business for 37 years didn't take any work. :p

I'm also pretty certain that there are no laws saying you have to pull your pants up or not talk back.

Sounds like you want to live in a police state. Perhaps it is you that should seek a new country then.

You'll never understand what this is all about, so I won't even bother with trying to educate you anymore.

Buh-Bye....

[Firefly]

Sorry but its the belief by many that this statement is true because it has been so widely broadcast by the mainstream media solely to stir this discontent that is the real basis of the the problem. Its NOT a true statement. Yes there are clashes between black males (and other minorities) and police that are a result of cultural and behavioral differences but to assume its the police that are systematically seeking out black males for murder is flat out wrong. Until both sides recognize this and work to correct the real cause, it will not get fixed.

Kneeling to disrespect the flag and the country you are supposed to be a part of only makes the fallacy grow.

I likely should never have clicked on this thread....

Just because you say something isn't true doesn't make it so.
Please do some research on how we have systematically incarcerated and treated blacks as second class citizens ever since slavery was abolished.
Blacks are arrested more and do much longer sentences than whites do for the same crimes.
Blacks are treated differently by many of the men in blue as well as other citizens.
Have you been followed around a store because you're white? Have you ever feared being shot when you got pulled over for a broken tail light?

If you're actually interested in learning more about this I can recommend some good books.
If not, that's fine too.

That the flag is 'disrespected' by kneeling is merely your personal opinion.. which you are welcome to. Many of us (including many veterans) do not share your opinion.

Hoping you were equally (if not more) outraged when Kid Rock, Ted Nugent and Sarah Palin wore the flag as clothing........


Still don't think this entire topic has any place out here.....

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

Just because you say something isn't true doesn't make it so.
Please do some research on how we have systematically incarcerated and treated blacks as second class citizens ever since slavery was abolished.
Blacks are arrested more and do much longer sentences than whites do for the same crimes.
Blacks are treated differently by many of the men in blue as well as other citizens.
Have you been followed around a store because you're white? Have you ever feared being shot when you got pulled over for a broken tail light?

If you're actually interested in learning more about this I can recommend some good books.
If not, that's fine too.

That the flag is 'disrespected' by kneeling is merely your personal opinion.. which you are welcome to. Many of us (including many veterans) do not share your opinion.

Hoping you were equally (if not more) outraged when Kid Rock, Ted Nugent and Sarah Palin wore the flag as clothing........


Still don't think this entire topic has any place out here.....

to start with when you say we i know i haven't been a part of the we, so tell me what have you done to blacks?
as for being arrested more please check fbi stats as to what & why and tell me why most black crime is on blacks.
at my store the only ones who are watched more are kids & teens, they like to steal valve caps off of display wheels.
i have never feared being shot when pulled over but have had an officer break my tail light with his gun, he got in trouble for that one.
in my years in business & a licensed driver i have had 3 times been asked for a bribe but never paid yet i still show respect to police
since i believe that is a very small minority of those that serve & protect.
Well as for kid rock, ted nugent & sarah palin..........he was nailing pamela anderson so kid gets a pass, ted is a nut job & sarah well
she is just a moron so i don't care.

[Pirate looks at --]

Since this is deteriorating, maybe you should take the argument to PMs instead. That way we don't have to witness the carnage!:roflblack:

[ARtraveler]

Another fire storm that will never be solved in this forum.

I am officially out. :thumbup: No further comments. And, two have been deleted.

[UtahPete]

Another fire storm that will never be solved in this forum. I am officially out. No further comments. And, two have been deleted.

I was hoping we could avoid a firestorm on this thread. Our divided nation needs to find a way to have civil dialog between factions. There have always been, and always will be, differences of opinion but they don't have to devolve into trench warfare. I'm still hopeful.

[wyliec]

There have always been, and always will be, differences of opinion but they don't have to devolve into trench warfare. I'm still hopeful.


That's funny. Did you forget where you were at? That's spyderlovers middle name- warfare.

[UtahPete]

That's funny. Did you forget where you were at? That's spyderlovers middle name- warfare.

Comic relief is good, don't ya think? :D

[wyliec]

to start with when you say we i know i haven't been a part of the we, so tell me what have you done to blacks?



I watch Survivor's Remorse; does that count?

[UtahPete]

I'm inclined to agree with this writer and Ken Burns, that the Vietnam War is the source of our great divide. This makes interesting reading.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/act-four/wp/2017/09/28/the-american-war-why-cant-americans-agree-on-what-it-means-to-be-patriotic-it-all-goes-back-to-vietnam/?tid=ss_fb&utm_term=.bb4a7724e700

[classicvw]

I'd say kill it. No one is going to be swayed to change their mind based on what they read here. The issue of the day has run its course.

:agree: Kill it already. Some really ignorant comments from both sides.

[jcthorne]

Just because you say something isn't true doesn't make it so.


On this one sentence, as applied to your rebuttal, is the only part of it I can agree with. From my point of view, it is you that is living in a fantasy land rather than the real world. We will have to move along with the understanding that we see this issue very differently.

Oh, I do need to address one item you mentioned. No, there is no law that says you have to treat an officer of the law with respect. Not doing so will land you in peril in ANY COUNTRY ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH. Most far worse than in the US. Does not make this a police state. Respect does not mean you agree with them. I disagree with you and am attempting to state that in a respectful manner.

[wyliec]

I'm inclined to agree with this writer and Ken Burns, that the Vietnam War is the source of our great divide. This makes interesting reading.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/act-four/wp/2017/09/28/the-american-war-why-cant-americans-agree-on-what-it-means-to-be-patriotic-it-all-goes-back-to-vietnam/?tid=ss_fb&utm_term=.bb4a7724e700

Don't you really think that you should start a separate thread for this?

[kep-up]

It has been a struggle, but I have managed to stay out of this one. And plan to continue to do so.

But, if anymore nasty personal comments get posted, I would agree that it should be CENSORED.

[UtahPete]

Don't you really think that you should start a separate thread for this?

Well, I thought it was relevant because the debate really seems to center on the meaning of patriotism and respect for honored traditions and symbols, which according to this article (and I tend to agree) really started to diverge with the turmoil surrounding the VietNam war.

I can relate to this in a number of different ways. Probably the most stark example is when I went home on leave before shipping out to VietNam. My sister had become engaged to a long-haired hippie and they let me know that if her fiancee got his draft notice, they were heading to Canada. I honestly didn't think much about it at the time (I really believe that America is about free choice), but looking back on it I can see how communities quickly became split over this issue.

They're still married, live 35 miles away, their son is a veteran of the Coast Guard, now an electronics tech with the Forest Service, all staunch Republicans and church-goers. We differ greatly on beliefs and values, but thankfully get along great, respecting each other's viewpoints. I know not all families from that era have fared as well.

I believe that if we want to understand the present, and prepare for a better future, we need to acknowledge and learn from the past. The Vietnam war was a turning point for American society and I think in order to fix what is wrong today we need as a nation to reconcile ourselves with the past.

Anyway, maybe you're right. This isn't the place for such a discussion.

[Firefly]

Seems many were asleep in history class and haven't bothered to do any research on these issues.
No sense arguing with those in such denial with closed minds.

[Pirate looks at --]

Well, I thought it was relevant because the debate really seems to center on the meaning of patriotism and respect for honored traditions and symbols, which according to this article (and I tend to agree) really started to diverge with the turmoil surrounding the VietNam war.

I can relate to this in a number of different ways. Probably the most stark example is when I went home on leave before shipping out to VietNam. My sister had become engaged to a long-haired hippie and they let me know that if her fiancee got his draft notice, they were heading to Canada. I honestly didn't think much about it at the time (I really believe that America is about free choice), but looking back on it I can see how communities quickly became split over this issue.

They're still married, live 35 miles away, their son is a veteran of the Coast Guard, now an electronics tech with the Forest Service, all staunch Republicans and church-goers. We differ greatly on beliefs and values, but thankfully get along great, respecting each other's viewpoints. I know not all families from that era have fared as well.

I believe that if we want to understand the present, and prepare for a better future, we need to acknowledge and learn from the past. The Vietnam war was a turning point for American society and I think in order to fix what is wrong today we need as a nation to reconcile ourselves with the past.

Anyway, maybe you're right. This isn't the place for such a discussion.
If we don't learn from history we are bound to repeat it, and sadly it appears that the horrible internal conflicts of the Vietnam Nam war are beginning to repeat themselves today!

[UtahPete]

If we don't learn from history we are bound to repeat it, and sadly it appears that the horrible internal conflicts of the Vietnam Nam war are beginning to repeat themselves today!

I watched in dismay and disbelief when our country decided to massively interfere in the middle east conflict. The only reason the public at large isn't protesting our military adventurism overseas now is because there is no draft. But, we seem not to have learned anything from Vietnam, except maybe how to treat soldiers better when they come home damaged from their experiences.

[Saluda]

Considering what just happened in Las Vegas, do you really think all this back and forth crap is necessary ??? Is it going to change (solve) anything ???

[UtahPete]

Considering what just happened in Las Vegas, do you really think all this back and forth crap is necessary ??? Is it going to change (solve) anything ???

I think communication is the main thing that moves society forward.

[RinconRyder]

I watched in dismay and disbelief when our country decided to massively interfere in the middle east conflict. The only reason the public at large isn't protesting our military adventurism overseas now is because there is no draft. But, we seem not to have learned anything from Vietnam, except maybe how to treat soldiers better when they come home damaged from their experiences.

"Our country" did not decide to massively interfere in the Mid-East - our president did (along with help from friends in Congress). That was exactly the same process that got us into trouble in Vietnam. And by doing so, and then lying about the reasons for the intervention, our government lost its integrity and that is a huge reason we are so divided today.

I agree with your statement that if we had the draft today we would not be participating in military interventions around the world. The streets would be filled with protesters just as they were in the 1960's.

[wyliec]

I watched in dismay and disbelief when our country decided to massively interfere in the middle east conflict. The only reason the public at large isn't protesting our military adventurism overseas now is because there is no draft. But, we seem not to have learned anything from Vietnam, except maybe how to treat soldiers better when they come home damaged from their experiences.

Should they have interfered at all, in any way? Also, what is the cutoff point at which it becomes massive? Is it money or troops, or both, and dollar figure and troop figure.

Even though you like to provoke, I always like your responses, whether I agree with them or not.

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

i think i have said about all i can on this thread, some agree some disagree. i will go to sleep each night and go to work the next morning
no matter what anyone thinks. i will still ride when i can, i will stand when appropriate and i will go to the bathroom when needed.

[UtahPete]

Should they have interfered at all, in any way? Also, what is the cutoff point at which it becomes massive? Is it money or troops, or both, and dollar figure and troop figure. Even though you like to provoke, I always like your responses, whether I agree with them or not.

Honestly, Wyliec, I am not trying to be provocative. When I first got active on this forum I did say some pretty provocative things, but lately I've tried to be conciliatory.

Anyway, I guess by 'massive' I meant the 'shock and awe' of the invasion of Iraq on the pretext of WMDs. Wasn't exactly subtle...

[wyliec]

Honestly, Wyliec, I am not trying to be provocative. When I first got active on this forum I did say some pretty provocative things, but lately I've tried to be conciliatory.

Anyway, I guess by 'massive' I meant the 'shock and awe' of the invasion of Iraq on the pretext of WMDs. Wasn't exactly subtle...

If you like movies, check out American Made. I'm sure you are probably aware it's about gov't involvement.

[Rogue Hawk]

I now have a very low opinion of NFL players. All a bunch of spoiled ingrates. But their are some exceptions. Tom Brady most notably. His greatness always stands above the rest.

http://blog.masslive.com/patriots/2017/09/nfl_national_anthem_protests_t.html

[UtahPete]

I now have a very low opinion of NFL players. All a bunch of spoiled ingrates. But their are some exceptions. Tom Brady most notably. His greatness always stands above the rest. http://blog.masslive.com/patriots/2017/09/nfl_national_anthem_protests_t.html

So, some millionaire players are okay, some aren't. The billionaire owners don't care either way, as long as they can keep the fans buying tickets, watching TV sports channels and buying overpriced paraphernalia. The more controversy the better. Like some famous movie star of the past once said 'there ain't no bad publicity' when it comes to engaging celebrity fans. You're nuts if you think any of the business people making money off you care about your opinion of sports teams and players, as long as you have one.

[Sarge707]

I they want to Protest Be Men or Woman and do it on their "Own Time" at Public town Halls or Protest Rallies NOT when they are being paid Millions and are on a Stage where everyone watching is ALSO paying to view in One respect or another.nojoke

[BoilerAnimal]

I had hoped this thread had finally died, but it's like a cat and seems to have at least four or five lives left.

A lot of folks have expressed outrage at the players who have had the audacity to exercise their constitutional right of free speech. Some say it's disrespectful to the flag or to the military or to the country as a whole. Some say they should protest in some other manner, that it's wrong to use their access to large crowds or to TV broadcasts to show any kind of message to the public. Some even believe they should be subservient and be docile or silent to any wrongs in this country. Many are unwilling to admit that what they are doing has even a modicum of merit.

I say they are carrying on a great tradition in this nation. They are doing something that every American, especially those who have served in the military, should recognize as one of the most important things that can be done. They are taking an active role in the politics of this great nation. They are honoring the sacrifices of all military servicemen from the beginning of this nation's founding. Many of you will not see it as so.

THEY ARE DOING SOMETHING THAT THOUSANDS OF VETERANS FOUGHT AND DIED FOR!

They are taking an action that is granted to every American by the Constitution of the United States of America. That is what every serviceman and every servicewoman has taken an oath to uphold and defend. By doing so, they are showing that those who have given their life in battle did not do so in vain!

Nowhere is it written that you have to agree with, like, participate or even watch. But you should at least acknowledge that this is one of the reasons that our military has fought in our long list of wars. To preserve the freedoms granted to us by our government through the Constitution.

Like it or not, the President has chosen to make this a point of contention between himself and the players who have decided to protest the treatment of people of color by some police officers.

This is the same person who got five deferments during the Viet Nam war. This is the same person who said he "felt like he was in the military" because he was sent to a military themed school to correct his behavior. This is the same person who said he "got more training, militarily, than a lot of the guys that go into the military" from that prep school. This is the same person that said about Sen. John McCain, "He was not a war hero. He's a war hero because he was captured. I like people that weren't captured.". This is the same person who attacked the parents of a true patriot who gave his life trying to save his fellow soldiers. This is the same person who gave State secrets to Russian diplomats in the White House. This is the same person who said that some of the white supremacists who marched and waived Swastikas in Charlottesville were good people. This is the same person who has openly questioned our commitment to our NATO allies. This is the same person who exhibits a strange fascination with Vladimir Putin. This is the same person who doubts our intelligence community's assessment of Russian interference in our 2016 election. This is the same person who now wants to decertify the Iran nuclear deal, thereby eliminating our oversight of their nuclear program and possibly allowing them to go the way of North Korea.

This is Donald J. Trump. The president of this country.

Now who do you think is patriotic?

[pitzerwm]

I might be totally lost here, but I missed the part that determined that kneeling was a disrespect for the flag/anthem. Talking and or screwing around during the Anthem is what I call disrespect. I could buy that they were kneeling for the fallen veterans. BUT if they meant it to be disrespectful, then my next thought is why are we getting upset when IMO it might take 3 of them to get an IQ of a rock. We get to vote with our feet and not attend the games, and the dude writing the checks could stop writing them. Not much difference with all of the *******s that threaten to leave the country if so n so is elected, sadly, they never do.:banghead::banghead::banghead:

[wyliec]

I agree with everything you said; but, you may have touched a nerve or two for those that adore the CIC :roflblack:, and they will be letting Lamont know. Rest assured, I am not one of them.

[JerryB]

Hi BoilerAnimal,

Re: I had hoped this thread had . . . . . who do you think is patriotic?

^^^^^ Perfect. I agree completely.

Jerry Baumchen

[WilderThomas]

But do you put down your beer and nachos and stand at attention when they play it on TV at home?

You're free pretty much to do what you want at home, that's not a public venue. Protest and demonstrate all you want. At least I've not paid to watch a homeowner demonstrate or protest.

[UtahPete]

You're free pretty much to do what you want at home, that's not a public venue. Protest and demonstrate all you want. At least I've not paid to watch a homeowner demonstrate or protest.

You are paying for entertainment, like it or not. It stopped being 'sports' a long time ago.

[Dudley]

I have never heard or seen that the flag represents a negative to someone who believes in the country.
Yes, we have a past which includes events we should not be proud of-but events we have learned from.

The "negatives" listed by the OP seem more to be his personal issues with our society.
I find connecting them to what our flag represents to be offensive and disgusting.
On this issue I cannot see both sides being right.
You love this country warts and all. You work to repair what might be broken.
You do not desecrate the flag in the process of making your position known.
I have no respect for those who perform their theatrics at the expense of honoring the flag.

Were the kneelers sincere about what they purport to believe in, they would be active in making the changes they say are needed rather than merely posing for the media.

A final comment, this is a forum about Spyders.
Is this type of topic really good for all of us?
After reading some posts in this thread and others, I find I no longer want to hear what some members have to say about anything.


Lamont has or at one time had a "NO POLITICS" rule on Spyder Lovers. This site of for the discussion of SPYDERS and Spyder related conversations. You want to lower this site's quality, post politics!

[UtahPete]

Lamont has or at one time had a "NO POLITICS" rule on Spyder Lovers. This site of for the discussion of SPYDERS and Spyder related conversations. You want to lower this site's quality, post politics!

It's a touchy subject but it isn't necessarily political.

Merriam-Webster defines it thus; 1 :the activities, actions, and policies that are used to gain and hold power in a government or to influence a government. 2 :a person's opinions about the management of government.

I don't see anything in the thread having to do with one group trying to gain power over government or expressing a strong opinion about government.

Do you?

[Firefly]

I had hoped this thread had finally died, but it's like a cat and seems to have at least four or five lives left.


Agree 100%... but we're in the minority out here on SL... so this will probably get yanked. Right leaning things are much more tolerated.....:sour:

[Firefly]

Lamont has or at one time had a "NO POLITICS" rule on Spyder Lovers. This site of for the discussion of SPYDERS and Spyder related conversations. You want to lower this site's quality, post politics!

:agree:

Hope you're doing well Dudley.....

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

Lamont has or at one time had a "NO POLITICS" rule on Spyder Lovers. This site of for the discussion of SPYDERS and Spyder related conversations. You want to lower this site's quality, post politics!

i agree, no more posting who died, no more posting about mass shootings, no more posting about someones hip surgery. oh no more
posting about what gun you bought or such stuff. this site is for spyders & bike related things only i don't want to know about hurricanes,
tornadoes or floods either i will start watching the news for that.

[Bob Denman]

Did anyone else have their television stations NOT televise the playing of The National Anthem?
I thought that I didn't see it on Thursday: it was definitely missing yesterday.
Do you think that decision was made so the folks wouldn't change the channel, if they saw the players take a knee?
Or was it done to take the voice away from the protest? :dontknow:

[LA2015FS]

I am from Canada. Totally think its disrespectful to kneel or sit during the National Anthem. Not a time to protest anything. I attended a NHL game last week and during both the American and Canadian Anthem - everyone I saw stood proud and tall. If that ever changes I won't be going to a game.

[UtahPete]

Did anyone else have their television stations NOT televise the playing of The National Anthem? I thought that I didn't see it on Thursday: it was definitely missing yesterday. Do you think that decision was made so the folks wouldn't change the channel, if they saw the players take a knee? Or was it done to take the voice away from the protest? :dontknow:

I think it was calculated to defuse the situation. It's a business; they will do what is necessary to maximize revenue and profits.

[wyliec]

i agree, no more posting who died, no more posting about mass shootings, no more posting about someones hip surgery. oh no more
posting about what gun you bought or such stuff. this site is for spyders & bike related things only i don't want to know about hurricanes,
tornadoes or floods either i will start watching the news for that.

That's why Lamont created the OFF TOPIC BOARD. It's where all topics not spyder related are to go. I do agree that all those topics you mentioned should not be on any of the actual Spyder forums here on spyderlovers.

Actually the OFF TOPIC BOARD was created for a previous member called $tuntman because of all his off topic posts. His screen name actually begins with an 's', but you cannot use an 's'; I think it had something to do with $tuntman's complaint that all his posts were to be removed.

Here it is in Lamont's own words:
New Off Topic Board- Read before posting here! (http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?10163-New-Off-Topic-Board-Read-before-posting-here!)

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

That's why Lamont created the OFF TOPIC BOARD. It's where all topics not spyder related are to go. I do agree that all those topics you mentioned should not be on any of the actual Spyder forums here on spyderlovers.

Actually the OFF TOPIC BOARD was created for a previous member called $tuntman because of all his off topic posts. His screen name actually begins with an 's', but you cannot use an 's'; I think it had something to do with $tuntman's complaint that all his posts were to be removed.

Here it is in Lamont's own words:
New Off Topic Board- Read before posting here! (http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?10163-New-Off-Topic-Board-Read-before-posting-here!)

i agree, now no more complaining about off topic posts in the off topic posting area, just don't click.

[Lew L]

I've followed this thread for 95 posts and finally decided to do something other than just opine here.


I'm contacting sponsors of NFL broadcasts to let them know that MILLIONS of us are not viewing their commercials because of the actions of players and some coaches ( and the lack of action by the NFL) .

"follow the money" .....If many thousands of Americans contact the sponsors of football and let them know that the commercial budget is not producing something may change for the better.

The protestors can protest ( as is their right) off the field and we will happily watch the commercials ( and my teams loose).



Flame away---------------

[UtahPete]

I've followed this thread for 95 posts and finally decided to do something other than just opine here. I'm contacting sponsors of NFL broadcasts to let them know that MILLIONS of us are not viewing their commercials because of the actions of players and some coaches ( and the lack of action by the NFL) . "follow the money" .....If many thousands of Americans contact the sponsors of football and let them know that the commercial budget is not producing something may change for the better. The protestors can protest ( as is their right) off the field and we will happily watch the commercials ( and my teams loose). Flame away---------------

No flaming here. Makes total sense.

[Lew L]

No flaming here. Makes total sense.


Thanks Petenojoke
Lew

[Firefly]

Did anyone else have their television stations NOT televise the playing of The National Anthem?
I thought that I didn't see it on Thursday: it was definitely missing yesterday.
Do you think that decision was made so the folks wouldn't change the channel, if they saw the players take a knee?
Or was it done to take the voice away from the protest? :dontknow:

I don't have a TV in my house... nor would I watch football on it if I did. Momma always said fooseball is the devil...

This entire thing is stupid. Never understood why the anthem is played before stupid events where grown men get paid millions to play children's games anyway. As if it's somehow respectful to play it to a whole group of fans, most of them drinking beer and eating nachos. If anything, playing it this often and at such idiotic events takes away from it being a respected and dignified thing.

[UtahPete]

I don't have a TV in my house... nor would I watch football on it if I did. Momma always said fooseball is the devil...This entire thing is stupid. Never understood why the anthem is played before stupid events where grown men get paid millions to play children's games anyway. As if it's somehow respectful to play it to a whole group of fans, most of them drinking beer and eating nachos. If anything, playing it this often and at such idiotic events takes away from it being a respected and dignified thing.

It only makes sense when viewed as big business entertainment. The entertainers give fans what they want. Just don't call it patriotic to go to see a show where they play (or sing usually) the national anthem.

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

I don't have a TV in my house... nor would I watch football on it if I did. Momma always said fooseball is the devil...

This entire thing is stupid. Never understood why the anthem is played before stupid events where grown men get paid millions to play children's games anyway. As if it's somehow respectful to play it to a whole group of fans, most of them drinking beer and eating nachos. If anything, playing it this often and at such idiotic events takes away from it being a respected and dignified thing.

Someone has an anger issue, you make it sound like a religion or cult.

[wyliec]

There's only one sport that I watch, the UFC, and they don't play the National Anthem there.

I'm probably the only person here who watches it.

I just remembered. My first statement is not true. I love to watch women's beach volleyball.

[Firefly]

It only makes sense when viewed as big business entertainment. The entertainers give fans what they want. Just don't call it patriotic to go to see a show where they play (or sing usually) the national anthem.

Exactly.
It has meaning and is special when done at inaugurations and other government events... but sports? what a joke. The exception I see would be the Olympics.. makes perfect sense as they're representing our entire country.

Momma always said Foosball was the devil.....

[SpyderF3-s]

NFL BOYCOTT SUNDAY NOV 12


They can protest....but so can we.https://mail.aol.com/webmail/getPart?uid=82181&partId=2.2&scope=STANDARD&saveAs=hkccdhmlaflhnhha.gif



"People are now calling for a complete National Boycott of the NFL for Sunday November 12th, which is Veterans Day Weekend. They are calling for a Boycott of all football telecast, all fans, all ticket holders, stay away from attending any games, let them play to empty stadiums. Pass this post along to all your friends and family. Honor our military, some of whom come home with the American Flag draped over their coffin..There are plenty of ways, times and places to protest concerning one's chosen cause, but to do so during a brief special time set aside to honor our nation's flag and the bravery and lives of our nation's military heroes, is inappropriate and disrespectful. Of course black lives matter, but so do the precious lives of millions of US soldiers (of all races) who have made the ultimate sacrifice to defend and protect our nation's rights and freedoms....and who most certainly deserve all of our respect. It's not about Trump, its about all those who bravely and unselfishly serve and who have served our nation. The Star Spangled Banner is presented to honor all of them."
https://mail.aol.com/webmail/getPart?uid=82181&partId=2.3&scope=STANDARD&saveAs=ncgmecppeflhjfhj.gif

[Firefly]

NFL BOYCOTT SUNDAY NOV 12


They can protest....but so can we.https://mail.aol.com/webmail/getPart?uid=82181&partId=2.2&scope=STANDARD&saveAs=hkccdhmlaflhnhha.gif



"People are now calling for a complete National Boycott of the NFL for Sunday November 12th, which is Veterans Day Weekend. They are calling for a Boycott of all football telecast, all fans, all ticket holders, stay away from attending any games, let them play to empty stadiums. Pass this post along to all your friends and family. Honor our military, some of whom come home with the American Flag draped over their coffin..There are plenty of ways, times and places to protest concerning one's chosen cause, but to do so during a brief special time set aside to honor our nation's flag and the bravery and lives of our nation's military heroes, is inappropriate and disrespectful. Of course black lives matter, but so do the precious lives of millions of US soldiers (of all races) who have made the ultimate sacrifice to defend and protect our nation's rights and freedoms....and who most certainly deserve all of our respect. It's not about Trump, its about all those who bravely and unselfishly serve and who have served our nation. The Star Spangled Banner is presented to honor all of them."
https://mail.aol.com/webmail/getPart?uid=82181&partId=2.3&scope=STANDARD&saveAs=ncgmecppeflhjfhj.gif

Sure seems like this is a political post........

Guess I'll break my general rule of not watching sports and make sure to tune in that weekend.

Did you boycott Ted Nugent, Sarah Palin or Kid Rock for wearing the flag as clothing?

[Rogue Hawk]

I had hoped this thread had finally died, but it's like a cat and seems to have at least four or five lives left.

A lot of folks have expressed outrage at the players who have had the audacity to exercise their constitutional right of free speech.

You misunderstand. I support their right to exercise free speech. But I exercise my right to criticize them for what they say. Also, within the context of a private business, the owners can censor their employees. The right to Free Speech can't be curtailed by the government. It does not extend to Private enterprises. Even on a forum, which is privately held, the owners can censor whatever they wish and it's lawful.

[UtahPete]

NFL BOYCOTT SUNDAY NOV 12 They can protest....but so can we.https://mail.aol.com/webmail/getPart?uid=82181&partId=2.2&scope=STANDARD&saveAs=hkccdhmlaflhnhha.gif

Go for it. Me, I'd rather get my knickers in a knot over something else.

[JerryB]

Hi Firefly,

Re: and make sure to tune in that weekend.

As will I.

Football is the only sport I watch on TV. Saw two games this weekend; usually get in three. C'est la vie,

Jerry Baumchen

[JerryB]

Hi Rogue Hawk,

Re: the owners can censor whatever they wish and it's lawful.

I rather doubt that. In another forum, someone posted about the player's union allowing them their free speech rights.

Earlier today I read where ( apparently ) Jerry Jones, who owns the Cowboys, said he will fire any player who takes a knee. This after he took a knee last week.

Does even one person on here think he will actually fire a player for taking a knee?

Reminds me of the old saying about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Jerry Baumchen

[UtahPete]

You misunderstand. I support their right to exercise free speech. But I exercise my right to criticize them for what they say. Also, within the context of a private business, the owners can censor their employees. The right to Free Speech can't be curtailed by the government. It does not extend to Private enterprises. Even on a forum, which is privately held, the owners can censor whatever they wish and it's lawful.

That's fine. Criticize them, boycott them, whatever floats your boat. Just don't confuse this with patriotism, honoring veterans or defending the flag or any other such nonsense. Any more than the 'Mormon' musical has anything to do with freedom of religion.

It's entertainment; think and say what you wish about it. That's one of our freedoms - to spend our money and time in whatever pursuit we choose. It has nothing to do with free speech or patriotism.

[Sarge707]

There's only one sport that I watch, the UFC, and they don't play the National Anthem there.

I'm probably the only person here who watches it.

I just remembered. My first statement is not true. I love to watch women's beach volleyball.

You mean MMA where the Spinning Backkick to the head Knocks the guy OUT!!! MMA made boxing obsolete ? IMHO

[Sarge707]

I still say people getting millions to play a game where people pay- One way or another - Have No business protesting!
By ALL means Do it on your own dime and proper function? And I bet most of the Knee Taking athletes are TOO selfish to use their own time to Protest!

[BoilerAnimal]

Looks like Colin Kaepernick does a little more than most give him credit for: http://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2017/10/donald-trump-brags-giving-charity-colin-kaepernick-does/

[JerryB]

Hi Sarge707,

Re: One way or another - Have No business protesting!

Do you not support the First Amendment? Actually, it is what you are doing with your post.

Jerry Baumchen

[Sarge707]

Hi Sarge707,

Re: One way or another - Have No business protesting!

Do you not support the First Amendment? Actually, it is what you are doing with your post.

Jerry Baumchen

I support the First Amendment- Not when your getting Millions to Play a Game- How about every Wall Street Executive Taking a Knee to their Boss- How LONG would they Last doing that?

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Hi Rogue Hawk,

Re: the owners can censor whatever they wish and it's lawful.

I rather doubt that.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
The First Amendment puts constraints on Congress and no one else. It also means Congress is not allowed to pass any law explicitly allowing a private employer to restrict freedom of speech. In the absence of a law prohibiting employers, and forum owners, from restricting speech, employers and forum owners are free to act on their own as they wish.

The NFL is free to prohibit any type of protest, and a forum owner is free to prohibit any given type of posts, but Congress may not grant them that permission. Is Congress free to pass a law prohibiting employers from restricting speech in the workplace? Probably not. When it comes to free speech, as I see it, the First Amendment puts the kibosh on Congress passing any kind of law dealing with it. But what is speech? That has been debated in Congress and the courts for years. Is a pharmaceutical company free to print blatant lies about a medication on the pill container and the drug information sheets? Nope. The whole issue is a quagmire.

[BoilerAnimal]

You misunderstand. I support their right to exercise free speech. But I exercise my right to criticize them for what they say. Also, within the context of a private business, the owners can censor their employees. The right to Free Speech can't be curtailed by the government. It does not extend to Private enterprises. Even on a forum, which is privately held, the owners can censor whatever they wish and it's lawful.


I understand full well the limitations that an employer can place on speech on company time.

What I was referencing were the folks who said they were basically uneducated, spoiled and not truly committed to the cause they were protesting against.

[ThreeWheels]

That's it.
From now on I'll be watching the Legends Football League.

https://www.youtube.com/mylfl

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

That's it.
From now on I'll be watching the Legends Football League.

https://www.youtube.com/mylfl

watch pro wrestling, they support our country and our troops and when they spew a bunch of crap we know they are full of it.

[wyliec]

watch pro wrestling, they support our country and our troops and when they spew a bunch of crap we know they are full of it.

:thumbup::thumbup:

[Firefly]

I support the First Amendment- Not when your getting Millions to Play a Game- How about every Wall Street Executive Taking a Knee to their Boss- How LONG would they Last doing that?

So your right to free speech ends because you make a lot of money doing something you are skilled at and maybe you also got lucky?

You really need to take a civics 101 class.

-----------

i hope the entire Dallas Cowboys team takes a knee and tells Jerry Jones to take a flying leap.

[Sarge707]

So your right to free speech ends because you make a lot of money doing something you are skilled at and maybe you also got lucky?

You really need to take a civics 101 class.

-----------

i hope the entire Dallas Cowboys team takes a knee and tells Jerry Jones to take a flying leap.

Its Obvious This Forum is AS divided on this as the Country so I will exit Stage Right before it gets worse?:hun:

[jerpinoy]

Thank you for all who laid out their piece. Just remember this quote from a famous person.

"Tell me where you've been and I will tell you who you are"

[wyliec]

Thank you for all who laid out their piece. Just remember this quote from a famous person.

"Tell me where you've been and I will tell you who you are"



There are quotes similar to that; but, that one doesn't show.

It sounds close to: "Tell Me What you Did Today, And I'll Tell You Who You Are"

[UtahPete]

"Tell me where you've been and I will tell you who you are"

Is this somehow relevant to the conversation? I don't get it.

[wyliec]

Is this somehow relevant to the conversation? I don't get it.

I think we've made it past relevancy.

[wyliec]

Thank you for all who laid out their piece. Just remember this quote from a famous person.

"Tell me where you've been and I will tell you who you are"



I figured it out.

If you've been on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, you are the Commander-In-Tweet.

[ARtraveler]

It would appear that anything said by anybody is not going to change anyone's mind. People have their opinions, and that is what they are. All that has been accomplished is the usual infighting by factions. It is obvious that the political divide has shown its ugly head.

I repeat: Another fire storm that will never be solved in this forum.

No further comments. :thumbup:

[UtahPete]

It would appear that anything said by anybody is not going to change anyone's mind. People have their opinions, and that is what they are. All that has been accomplished is the usual infighting by factions. It is obvious that the political divide has shown its ugly head. I repeat: Another fire storm that will never be solved in this forum. No further comments.

That's all this type of thread is supposed to be; a place to express opinions. Given the number of members on this forum, should we ever expect there won't be differences of opinion? I think it's an interesting exchange of opinions, some informed and some not. I didn't think we would 'solve' anything, if by solving you mean come to a common understanding and agreement on an issue. Right?

[Rogue Hawk]

Hi Rogue Hawk,

Re: the owners can censor whatever they wish and it's lawful.

I rather doubt that. In another forum, someone posted about the player's union allowing them their free speech rights.

Earlier today I read where ( apparently ) Jerry Jones, who owns the Cowboys, said he will fire any player who takes a knee. This after he took a knee last week.

Does even one person on here think he will actually fire a player for taking a knee?

Reminds me of the old saying about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Jerry Baumchen

Jerry Jones is trying to have it both ways. He found out how much he really pissed off the fans. Its the fans that pay him and his players.

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

i really don't care what the players, owners or others do. i'm not watching, i'm not attending. i have netflix, porn & a spyder to take
up my time and not get me pissed off.

[pitzerwm]

So your right to free speech ends because you make a lot of money doing something you are skilled at and maybe you also got lucky?

You really need to take a civics 101 class.

-----------

i hope the entire Dallas Cowboys team takes a knee and tells Jerry Jones to take a flying leap.


We all have freedom of speech and agree that we all should have it . Even stupid people have it. Most intelligent people temper their freedom of speech, with common sense. If your thoughts differ from one of your customers or clients or bosses, it's pretty much common sense, keep it to yourself. Rarely are you put into a situation where you have to violate your principles over it.

Here is something about freedom of speech that puzzles me. It's people that put the sign of the fish on their business cards. No one with a brain (IMO) would put on their business card "I'm a Republican/Democrat". So why would you put the sign of the fish? Since, I have been screwed in business a number of times by people that claimed to "be a good christian", If I see the sign of the fish or they answer the phone with "God bless you", I'm walking, my freedom of speech. The only flag that I wave is the American flag.

[JerryB]

Hi Rogue Hawk,

Re: Its the fans that pay him and his players.

Based upon what I have read over the last 15 yrs or so; it is the TV contracts that pay him/them far more than any warm seats in the those stadiums.

Jerry Baumchen

[Pirate looks at --]

i really don't care what the players, owners or others do. i'm not watching, i'm not attending. i have netflix, porn & a spyder to take
up my time and not get me pissed off.
So what are you going to do when the porn stars take a knee?????:roflblack::roflblack: Will you lower the flag to half mast?????:roflblack::roflblack::roflblack: Or raise it high and proud???:roflblack::roflblack::roflblack:

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

So what are you going to do when the porn stars take a knee?????:roflblack::roflblack: Will you lower the flag to half mast?????:roflblack::roflblack::roflblack: Or raise it high and proud???:roflblack::roflblack::roflblack:
i think the porn stars are always on their knees & the guys on film and those who watch are always saluting.

[Bob Denman]

When the Porn Stars "take a knee": that's when the action becomes the most entertaining! :shocked:
:roflblack:

[wyliec]

When the Porn Stars "take a knee": that's when the action becomes the most entertaining! :shocked:
:roflblack:

You are so 1950's.:roflblack:

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

You are so 1950's.:roflblack:

And if the players were 1950's they would be standing. :sour:

[wyliec]

And if the players were 1950's they would be standing. :sour:

Yep, everyone knew their place in the 1950's. Yes boss.

[Bob Denman]

And if the players were 1950's they would be standing. :sour:
Al,
You're not even 1950's; are you?

[wyliec]

We've really come full circle on this thread, which is fine.

[Bob Denman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDehYXKI31g

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

Al,
You're not even 1950's; are you?

well i watch mash, leave it to beaver, just watched the original thing so that makes me sort of '50's & i watch happy days and
american graffiti.

[Bob Denman]

"Happy Days", and "American Graffiti"; would make you 1970's... :thumbup:

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

"Happy Days", and "American Graffiti"; would make you 1970's... :thumbup:
made in 70's, based on the '50's

[Bob Denman]

:shocked: You're getting pretty deep into "Temporal Mechanics" right now...

...and I can't get two clocks in my house, to read the same time! :banghead:

[Larryjn]

so am i free to yell out "hey n***er get off your knee and show some respect" without any fear of reprisal from fans, players or
stadium?

As an American Veteran and a Black American, who family have been in all branches of the armed forces of the country (not Coast Guard), and a few who have gave their life in service of this country and we are still called "N" by some of you. Why? I will defend the right of KKK, Nazis, and others to protest. I may not agree with them but I will support their rights to do so. (Hoping that others will see that their message is wrong.) As to the protest in the NFL, it never was or has been about the flag, anthem or the Veterans, (those who don't want to talk about the real issue of why has convince many it is about the flag, anthem and Veterans, which it is not.) it is about the way Americans have treated African Americans, the Justice system, and how some police officers, not all (my neighbor is an officer of the law and we get along very well) are allowed to just get away with murder, lying (Falsely accusing) and abuse of people. No matter their race. Most of you don't really care and to some of you it is OK. if that is the fact than say so, but don't hide behind the flag or the anthem (which most of you don't even know the words to it and what it really means). I still don't see how the Veterans got added to the mix. Most of you people don't really give a s**t about us Veterans. you talk a good game, but were you willing to sent your kids off, when the country was at war? Did you go? When members of my family and I raise our right hand we Pledge to defend the Constitution of the United States, to ensure all of it people rights are protected not some but all. With this said I will defend your Right to say and use the N word because I know that is how you feel about American who are not of you color. I hope you can educate yourselves on the history of this country and rights you have that came so easy for you.

Your post with the N word really sadden me. As Mr R. King had said, "Can We All Just Get Along", I pray we can.

I have seen many changes in my life, I hope this will change before I move on.

[wyliec]

As an American Veteran and a Black American, who family have been in all branches of the armed forces of the country (not Coast Guard), and a few who have gave their life in service of this country and we are still called "N" by some of you. Why? I will defend the right of KKK, Nazis, and others to protest. I may not agree with them but I will support their rights to do so. (Hoping that others will see that their message is wrong.) As to the protest in the NFL, it never was or has been about the flag, anthem or the Veterans, (those who don't want to talk about the real issue of why has convince many it is about the flag, anthem and Veterans, which it is not.) it is about the way Americans have treated African Americans, the Justice system, and how some police officers, not all (my neighbor is an officer of the law and we get along very well) are allowed to just get away with murder, lying (Falsely accusing) and abuse of people. No matter their race. Most of you don't really care and to some of you it is OK. if that is the fact than say so, but don't hide behind the flag or the anthem (which most of you don't even know the words to it and what it really means). I still don't see how the Veterans got added to the mix. Most of you people don't really give a s**t about us Veterans. you talk a good game, but were you willing to sent your kids off, when the country was at war? Did you go? When members of my family and I raise our right hand we Pledge to defend the Constitution of the United States, to ensure all of it people rights are protected not some but all. With this said I will defend your Right to say and use the N word because I know that is how you feel about American who are not of you color. I hope you can educate yourselves on the history of this country and rights you have that came so easy for you.

Your post with the N word really sadden me. As Mr R. King had said, "Can We All Just Get Along", I pray we can.

I have seen many changes in my life, I hope this will change before I move on.

Do you actually know the ethnicity of Spectacular Spiderman? Are you saying you are better than non-veterans?

I don't think it is any of your business if someone sent their child off to war, or if any member here went. You are way more inflammatory than Spectacular Spiderman.

[UtahPete]

Do you actually know the ethnicity of Spectacular Spiderman? Are you saying you are better than non-veterans? I don't think it is any of your business if someone sent their child off to war, or if any member here went. You are way more inflammatory than Spectacular Spiderman.

WylieC, I don't think he was saying that. Let's not allow this conversation to become one of personal attacks please.

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

As an American Veteran and a Black American, who family have been in all branches of the armed forces of the country (not Coast Guard), and a few who have gave their life in service of this country and we are still called "N" by some of you. Why? I will defend the right of KKK, Nazis, and others to protest. I may not agree with them but I will support their rights to do so. (Hoping that others will see that their message is wrong.) As to the protest in the NFL, it never was or has been about the flag, anthem or the Veterans, (those who don't want to talk about the real issue of why has convince many it is about the flag, anthem and Veterans, which it is not.) it is about the way Americans have treated African Americans, the Justice system, and how some police officers, not all (my neighbor is an officer of the law and we get along very well) are allowed to just get away with murder, lying (Falsely accusing) and abuse of people. No matter their race. Most of you don't really care and to some of you it is OK. if that is the fact than say so, but don't hide behind the flag or the anthem (which most of you don't even know the words to it and what it really means). I still don't see how the Veterans got added to the mix. Most of you people don't really give a s**t about us Veterans. you talk a good game, but were you willing to sent your kids off, when the country was at war? Did you go? When members of my family and I raise our right hand we Pledge to defend the Constitution of the United States, to ensure all of it people rights are protected not some but all. With this said I will defend your Right to say and use the N word because I know that is how you feel about American who are not of you color. I hope you can educate yourselves on the history of this country and rights you have that came so easy for you.

Your post with the N word really sadden me. As Mr R. King had said, "Can We All Just Get Along", I pray we can.

I have seen many changes in my life, I hope this will change before I move on.

perhaps you missed the point of my post, if those players are allowed to do something i and apparently many others find despicable
as americans yet they are protected in doing so then would i not too be allowed to do something under the same first amendment
right?
i find what they are doing is showing no respect to the NATIONAL ANTHEM, something that represents this country and is one of the
few things that can bring all americans & future americans together for a brief time. as for the protest not being about the anthem,
flag or veterans then perhaps their protest should be done at a different time of the game not during the anthem.
p.s. i am native american & african american & i am white, WHO CARES!!

[Bob Denman]

Larry,
I agree with about 99.3% of what you said... :clap::2thumbs:
But if somebody wants to protest Police mistreatment of minorities: don't you think that picking another place for it, would have been more effective?
In my mind; if you disrespect the flag by not standing for the National Anthem: your entire viewpoint has been lost in that act.
Our NFL players are ALL men with other means of promoting better relations between everybody... :2thumbs:
(Even the Purple & Green folks! :D)
As an example: they could host rallies and/or picnics, and invite Local Law Enforcement Officers to a "meet, greet, & eat" with the local folks.

[Pirate looks at --]

As an American Veteran and a Black American, who family have been in all branches of the armed forces of the country (not Coast Guard), and a few who have gave their life in service of this country and we are still called "N" by some of you. Why? I will defend the right of KKK, Nazis, and others to protest. I may not agree with them but I will support their rights to do so. (Hoping that others will see that their message is wrong.) As to the protest in the NFL, it never was or has been about the flag, anthem or the Veterans, (those who don't want to talk about the real issue of why has convince many it is about the flag, anthem and Veterans, which it is not.) it is about the way Americans have treated African Americans, the Justice system, and how some police officers, not all (my neighbor is an officer of the law and we get along very well) are allowed to just get away with murder, lying (Falsely accusing) and abuse of people. No matter their race. Most of you don't really care and to some of you it is OK. if that is the fact than say so, but don't hide behind the flag or the anthem (which most of you don't even know the words to it and what it really means). I still don't see how the Veterans got added to the mix. Most of you people don't really give a s**t about us Veterans. you talk a good game, but were you willing to sent your kids off, when the country was at war? Did you go? When members of my family and I raise our right hand we Pledge to defend the Constitution of the United States, to ensure all of it people rights are protected not some but all. With this said I will defend your Right to say and use the N word because I know that is how you feel about American who are not of you color. I hope you can educate yourselves on the history of this country and rights you have that came so easy for you.

Your post with the N word really sadden me. As Mr R. King had said, "Can We All Just Get Along", I pray we can.

I have seen many changes in my life, I hope this will change before I move on.


Larry, thank you so much for this post. Thanks for putting into perspective what these protests are all about. Thanks for demonstrating what you and other veterans have fought for. Our rights as guaranteed by the constitution allow all of us to be heard, in a peaceful manner. We should intervene only when demonstrations become destructive. Thank you for your service to this country! I totally agree that all views should be heard, it doesn't matter if it comes from millionaire ball players, or minimum wage employees. When the Nazis demonstrate it is easy to see them for what they are, and the intelligent person easily determines that their values are despicable and hateful, and we want nothing to do with them. Just as some people on this thread have shocked me with their views, and usage of demeaning terminology, we have the right to reject that point of view, and I do so freely! That is the greatness of this country is we are free to think and believe what we want, as long as we do no harm to others!

Larry, you are a true American Patriot!:bowdown:

[Pirate looks at --]

Larry,
I agree with about 99.3% of what you said... :clap::2thumbs:
But if somebody wants to protest Police mistreatment of minorities: don't you think that picking another place for it, would have been more effective?
In my mind; if you disrespect the flag by not standing for the National Anthem: your entire viewpoint has been lost in that act.
Our NFL players are ALL men with other means of promoting better relations between everybody... :2thumbs:
(Even the Purple & Green folks! :D)
As an example: they could host rallies and/or picnics, and invite Local Law Enforcement Officers to a "meet, greet, & eat" with the local folks.
But Bob, this is their stage this is where their influence can best be demonstrated. Marlon Brando could have picked a different stage to protest the treatment of Native Americans, but, the Oscars was where his point going to have the most visibility.

[Bob Denman]

...But when the point is lost due to "poor aim": what good was it?

Please don't misunderstand me: I believe that there have been too many tragic mistakes made... :banghead:
The players have just chosen the wrong place for their protests.

[UtahPete]

...But when the point is lost due to "poor aim": what good was it? Please don't misunderstand me: I believe that there have been too many tragic mistakes made... :banghead: The players have just chosen the wrong place for their protests.

If they get attention, and there's certainly no doubt about that, then who is to say it is the 'wrong' place to protest? You may not like it, but that's not the same thing, is it?

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

If they get attention, and there's certainly no doubt about that, then who is to say it is the 'wrong' place to protest? You may not like it, but that's not the same thing, is it?

Yes perhaps you are right but why should we be paying them to do so, they are football players so PLAY BALL!
If they really believe in what they are doing then they would have no problem pooling their money and pay for air time on a network
channel to air their opinion unless of course they don't believe in it enough to really spend THEIR time and THEIR money. I haven't
heard of them giving out any free t shirts or hats with any words of protest on them, perhaps they should print up about 500,000 to
give out in the parking lots or mail out for free.
Again I say netflix, porn & riding are my choice.

[Bob Denman]

:banghead: If the message is being lost due to folks questioning their Patriotism: yeah... it's the wrong place for it.

[UtahPete]

Yes perhaps you are right but why should we be paying them to do so, they are football players so PLAY BALL!

I believe they are paid by the season or the game, not by the hour. And, in any case, you're not their employer, right, so you don't really have any standing in this dispute at all.

[Bob Denman]

But as a fan: he has the right to be offended by their actions...:thumbup:

[UtahPete]

But as a fan: he has the right to be offended by their actions...:thumbup:

Absolutely! Freedom of choice I think is alive and well.

[ARtraveler]

:bbq::bbq::bbq:

[wyliec]

Most of you people don't really give a s**t about us Veterans. you talk a good game, but were you willing to sent your kids off, when the country was at war? Did you go? When members of my family and I raise our right hand we Pledge to defend the Constitution of the United States, to ensure all of it people rights are protected not some but all.


WylieC, I don't think he was saying that. Let's not allow this conversation to become one of personal attacks please.

You and I will have to differ on this. Are you trying to curb my freedom of speech?:roflblack:

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

But as a fan: he has the right to be offended by their actions...:thumbup:
No, as an american i have that right. Now keep in mind i won't yell shark at the beach or fire in a movie theater because i feel
it is the wrong place to do so.

[UtahPete]

You and I will have to differ on this. Are you trying to curb my freedom of speech?:roflblack:

Funny!

[wyliec]

Funny!

I just want to explain a little further. Those statements I quoted I find upsetting, and it's not because I'm a non-veteran. Maybe you're right, there seems a greater degree for misunderstanding the way things are written.

[UtahPete]

I just want to explain a little further. Those statements I quoted I find upsetting, and it's not because I'm a non-veteran. Maybe you're right, there seems a greater degree for misunderstanding the way things are written.

I wasn't kidding; I did find your post humorous, as I think you intended. I'm a veteran but I don't think my opinion is any more relevant or valid or valuable because of that.

[ofdave]

So the point of the kneeling and raised fist is to protest treatment on a group of people?

What have the kneelers done to help make their perceived treatment of these people get better?
Where are they in the neighborhoods, where are their contributions to organizations that can help?
Where are they-on national TV in the spotlight. And they offer no ideas except to pose for the cameras.
Where are their actions for and with the people they claim are treated badly?

Oh, and who is orchestrating these actions by the players. Do you really believe it is all coincidence?

[UtahPete]

So the point of the kneeling and raised fist is to protest treatment on a group of people? What have the kneelers done to help make their perceived treatment of these people get better? Where are they in the neighborhoods, where are their contributions to organizations that can help? Where are they-on national TV in the spotlight. And they offer no ideas except to pose for the cameras. Where are their actions for and with the people they claim are treated badly? Oh, and who is orchestrating these actions by the players. Do you really believe it is all coincidence?

Apparently you think it is part of some conspiracy to undermine democracy or something. Please, enlighten us.

[UtahPete]

It was US Army veteran, Nate Boyer, who suggested to Kaepernick to take a knee as a sign of respect. This is their inspiring story of what can happen when people with different perspectives decide to sit down, have a conversation, and hear each other out. #ColinKaepernick (https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/colinkaepernick?source=feed_text&story_id=1878882689106265) #NFL (https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/nfl?source=feed_text&story_id=1878882689106265) #Kaepernick (https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/kaepernick?source=feed_text&story_id=1878882689106265)

https://youtu.be/I4nyaL8qmK0 (https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2FI4nyaL8qmK0&h=ATMZmWP4ttdG0wZNuzUBYbesowhNRGPkNyQdURLtm0V_v4Ka T-C585oBsHS1bEi39c4Ha9A2UUgIclfMc11HD8fl3-LLP-aQDp62lXWmcgE7x6LxeKfD4ezYlB9XCkDOT9joOFoAxLZh34W2 ah8lRv23XH_dHVx5eMKtu6sZoSgkbD8okEelK38rW_XVZaR18V BpMlHRRHq8TrW4QUEEOwmb3PPcK9lS7SUe7JDQMwycwbCxzpng xpMBSiTQbeyBh-kcM63QmAmK5GmBI4FDMkUc3AP3QggizRX6qnFmf0Za)

(Found this on Facebook; seems to be relevant but what do I know)

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

so 1 vet says it is ok that means 300 million people should agree.

[UtahPete]

so 1 vet says it is ok that means 300 million people should agree.

Is that your interpretation?

[RinconRyder]

made in 70's, based on the '50's

Actually, American Graffiti was 1960's, not 50's.

[Pirate looks at --]

so 1 vet says it is ok that means 300 million people should agree.
You just don't get it. I think everybody on the other side (from you) of this story totally agrees that anybody has the right to be upset by these protests. In fact protests are designed to upset the apple cart. If they don't then there is no purpose. They are staged to create dialogue on the subject and this one certainly did! Success! You have the right to be upset! You have the right to not patronize the NFL, that is your form of protest.......and if enough people join your protest, you may provoke a change in policy. The protest of the players is no more wrong than your protest of their actions! This is a free country ( though I fear some are trying to change that) so protest away! Your voice and theirs need to be heard!:clap:

[JerryB]

Hi Bob,

Re: ...and I can't get two clocks in my house, to read the same time!

I have a clock in my garage that get its time from a satellite. My computers get their time the same way; as does my cell phone. All of the other clocks are 'sort of' in the same time zone.

Just how accurate do you really, really needs your clocks to be?

Jerry Baumchen

[JerryB]

Hi Larryjn,

Re: As an American Veteran and a Black American, who . . . I hope this will change before I move on.

I absolutely agree with you.

In the summer of 1963 I was in Berlin. I have a photo of me standing next to the Berlin Wall. I always knew that one day it would come down, I just did not expect to come down in my lifetime.

I hope, with you, that this will change before either of us moves on.

Nice post,

Jerry Baumchen
A veteran

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

Is that your interpretation?
my interpretation is when a group of vets were to say it i might listen more then 1 individual saying it. now here is a serious question,
what will the players do when the season is over, how will they get their message out there? it will take THEIR time and THEIR money
to do so. if they were to spend the time and money of just what they make in 1 game then i may change my mind about them.
How about we discuss this 2 months after the season is over to see what happens.
As to american graffiti, yes it was based in the 60's but happy days was still the 50's and so was the thing which i watched yesterday.

[Bob Denman]

Hi Bob,
Re: ...and I can't get two clocks in my house, to read the same time!
Just how accurate do you really, really needs your clocks to be?
Jerry Baumchen
:shocked: It's just a pet peeve that bugs my anal-retentive inner self... :gaah:

[Bob Denman]

my interpretation is when a group of vets were to say it i might listen more then 1 individual saying it.
Al,
Anyone who believes in the principal beliefs of our Country will tell you that not standing for the presentation of the Flag, and the National Anthem; is a right that is guaranteed...

Whether or not it is bad manners: that's the issue here. :D

[classicvw]

Is this somehow relevant to the conversation? I don't get it.

It's not that deep. Just think for a second and you'll get it.

[classicvw]

Al,
Anyone who believes in the principal beliefs of our Country will tell you that not standing for the presentation of the Flag, and the National Anthem; is a right that is guaranteed...

Whether or not it is bad manners: that's the issue here. :D

Yep. They are choosing to do it during the anthem for maximum attention, which, I guess, is when anyone who has something to bitch about would choose.

BUT, if some of that attention they get is a negative reaction, those that give that negative feedback aren't wrong for expressing that.

People pay a lot of money to go to these games. And, after all, aren't sporting events entertainment? It's supposed to be fun. It's a departure from the many things in life that give us stress. We'd like to be free of problems during those 3 hours.
Carry it further- What if you went to a movie theater or Broadway play and as you're expecting the movie or play to start, a group appeared onstage and gave a political speech?

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

Al,
Anyone who believes in the principal beliefs of our Country will tell you that not standing for the presentation of the Flag, and the National Anthem; is a right that is guaranteed...

Whether or not it is bad manners: that's the issue here. :D

Hey, i'm not going to hit or shoot someone for not doing so but again i have the same right to call the individual any name that i want
whether they find it offensive or not. i have the right to burn the koran or bible or flag any time i want. just because it is offensive to
some or many i should have a right to do so? well i don't agree, you should not have a right to incite violence and don't tell me
that isn't so, al sharpton & many other protesters have done so and are still doing it. hell, louis farakkan has a street named after him
in brooklyn and he fully stated for segragation and the extermination of the white race and showed contempt for mlk. tell me where
our freedom of religion should end for the good of the people, our elected officials don't really say that a good muslim would be one
who follows the koran and kills all infidels while a radical muslim doesn't agree with mohammad and rape young girls or drink camel
piss as the koran and allah wish. so please tell me where someones rights end and the good of the country and it's people begin.

enough of this, now i am going to watch ghosts of mars on sockshare.net
p.s. andy griffith is on tv land right now. (i have that on the tv on mute).

[Bob Denman]

Hey, i'm not going to hit or shoot someone for not doing so but again i have the same right to call the individual any name that i want
whether they find it offensive or not. i have the right to burn the koran or bible or flag any time i want. just because it is offensive to some or many i should have a right to do so? well i don't agree, you should not have a right to incite violence
:shocked: I think that your prescription medications might need some "adjustments... nojoke

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

:shocked: I think that your prescription medications might need some "adjustments... nojoke

Why, because i don't agree that others should be able to incite violence? are you serious?! i believe in showing respect for that
which deserves it, our country does, our politicians do not. Our police as a whole do but there are definetly some who don't.

[UtahPete]

Why, because i don't agree that others should be able to incite violence? are you serious?! i believe in showing respect for that
which deserves it, our country does, our politicians do not. Our police as a whole do but there are definetly some who don't.

I think it's because you are showing a propensity to react disproportionately to the perceived threat. Not just on this thread. Seriously.

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

I think it's because you are showing a propensity to react disproportionately to the perceived threat. Not just on this thread. Seriously.

I agree, but i take no chances. i'm the guy who thinks when you pull a gun on someone you plan on shooting them not show
it off. (I don't own a gun) if you pull a bb gun on a cop and he shoots you did he overreact, if you believe yes then don't watch the news on what happen in
brooklyn overnight.
if you double park you are hurting many others blocks away with the traffic you cause just for you own selfish convenience. i look at
the big picture and the possibilities of the action and who it may effect. at my place we either hand torque or use torque sticks when
installing so as not to over tighten and prevent someone from removing when they get a flat. it doesn't happen often but do you want
to be the one stuck on the road.

[Bob Denman]

I think it's because you are showing a propensity to react disproportionately to the perceived threat. Not just on this thread. Seriously.
:shocked: Sad to say; but :agree:

[UtahPete]

It was US Army veteran, Nate Boyer, who suggested to Kaepernick to take a knee as a sign of respect. This is their inspiring story of what can happen when people with different perspectives decide to sit down, have a conversation, and hear each other out. #ColinKaepernick (https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/colinkaepernick?source=feed_text&story_id=1878882689106265) #NFL (https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/nfl?source=feed_text&story_id=1878882689106265) #Kaepernick (https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/kaepernick?source=feed_text&story_id=1878882689106265)

(Found this on Facebook; seems to be relevant but what do I know) https://youtu.be/I4nyaL8qmK0 (https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2FI4nyaL8qmK0&h=ATMZmWP4ttdG0wZNuzUBYbesowhNRGPkNyQdURLtm0V_v4Ka T-C585oBsHS1bEi39c4Ha9A2UUgIclfMc11HD8fl3-LLP-aQDp62lXWmcgE7x6LxeKfD4ezYlB9XCkDOT9joOFoAxLZh34W2 ah8lRv23XH_dHVx5eMKtu6sZoSgkbD8okEelK38rW_XVZaR18V BpMlHRRHq8TrW4QUEEOwmb3PPcK9lS7SUe7JDQMwycwbCxzpng xpMBSiTQbeyBh-kcM63QmAmK5GmBI4FDMkUc3AP3QggizRX6qnFmf0Za)

I'm surprised there haven't been other comments on this video.

[BoilerAnimal]

I no longer do Facebook. It's very nice living without it, I might add!

[Bob Denman]

:shocked:

154668

[UtahPete]

:shocked:

154668

I think you brought it back to life, Bob. Maybe it was just sleeping.

[Bob Denman]

:D I'm trying to rebuild my picture repository, and I just found that one! :roflblack:

[wyliec]

I think you brought it back to life, Bob. Maybe it was just sleeping.

Don't get me started. I'm still thinking of that one post that you and I disagreed on.

I think Bob D. is trying to resurrect this thread.

[ARtraveler]

Hot off the internet--where everything posted is true.......:roflblack:

Collin Kapernick (don't care if spelled wrong), filed a "collusion" action against the NFL yesterday, stating they were out to get him for what he started. The internet is saying that this is going to be pretty much the kiss of death to Mr. K's football career--still no offers from anyone. The collusion filing should take care of it.

Did karma strike? :thumbup:

[UtahPete]

Don't get me started. I'm still thinking of that one post that you and I disagreed on.

I'm not even sure which one you're referring to, but in any case let's go PM with it.

[UtahPete]

Hot off the internet--where everything posted is true.......:roflblack:

Collin Kapernick (don't care if spelled wrong), filed a "collusion" action against the NFL yesterday, stating they were out to get him for what he started. The internet is saying that this is going to be pretty much the kiss of death to Mr. K's football career--still no offers from anyone. The collusion filing should take care of it.

Did karma strike? :thumbup:

All that should matter is whether or not he's a good player. I don't know because I don't watch corporate sports.

[Bob Denman]

Let's just say that "The bloom was off his bouquet of roses..." :clap:

[2Paw]

All that should matter is whether or not he's a good player. I don't know because I don't watch corporate sports.


:agree: BUT protesting was not what he was being paid to do. He was a representative of the Team and the League and IMHO he was not doing his job and he was fired for it, also IMO the coach and the owner who allowed this behavior should have been disciplined/fined by the league also. I as a fan pay for entertainment and if I don't get what I paid for I'm free to go elsewhere, just like going to a different dealer if I don't like the service. If you want to protest do it on your own time and on your own dime. Don't waste my time and money.
I fought for this country when it wasn't popular to do so and I just think there was a better way he could have done this.
Every Redneck I know has said this at one time "it seemed like a good idea at the time"

[UtahPete]

BUT protesting was not what he was being paid to do. He was a representative of the Team and the League and IMHO he was not doing his job and he was fired for it, also IMO the coach and the owner who allowed this behavior should have been disciplined/fined by the league also. I as a fan pay for entertainment and if I don't get what I paid for I'm free to go elsewhere, just like going to a different dealer if I don't like the service. If you want to protest do it on your own time and on your own dime. Don't waste my time and money. I fought for this country when it wasn't popular to do so and I just think there was a better way he could have done this.
Every Redneck I know has said this at one time "it seemed like a good idea at the time"

Maybe it's considered part of the entertainment? I don't know - I don't have a dog in this fight (NFL players' behavior).

I do have to say, though, that having served in the military doesn't give our arguments any more weight or relevance. I wish people would just express their opinions as Americans and not muddy the waters with assumptions about their affiliations giving them more gravity. It's that kind of talk and thinking that drives wedges between factions I think.

[Bob Denman]

Serving in our Nation's Military is far more than a mere "affiliation". nojoke
By calling it that: you do a disservice to our Veterans... nojoke

Or was this just a poor choice of words? :dontknow:

[UtahPete]

Serving in our Nation's Military is far more than a mere "affiliation".
By calling it that: you do a disservice to our Veterans... nojoke

Or was this just a poor choice of words? :dontknow:

I am a veteran, Bob. Combat. Vietnam. I just don't think that entitles me to a greater acceptance or respect for my opinions.

I agree, serving in the military is more than a mere affiliation - it's a serious commitment and sacrifice. But, I'm no longer active service, so my affiliation is with other military veterans (of which I'm proud), not the military.

But, as always, I respect your right to see things differently.

[wyliec]

https://military.stanford.edu/community/what-military-affiliated

[cmbspyderrss]

By the way, thank you for your service. Particularly during the '60s and '70s it was pretty thankless. I didn't hear 'welcome home' until 5 years ago at an event honoring Vietnam Veterans'. We walked around the ballroom, where active duty and national guard members shook our hands, saluted and said 'welcome home'. It brought me to tears and I'm tearing up just thinking about it.

To all Serviceman, Servicewomen and their families. Thank you from myself, my family to you and yours. While i was the only male in my family to unfortunately not serve, i with all deepest thanks and admiration appreciate your service that allow me to be able to even write this.

I am 45yo so you can do some math to figure the first 2 out. Moms parents born in 1898.
Great Grandfather (Mom Side) - IRB
Grandfather (Mom Side) - IRB
Grandfather (Dad Side) - Royal Navy WW1
Uncle (Mom Side) - Navy Sonar Operator WW2
Dad - Army 1964-69
Nephew 1 - Navy 2010-15
Nephew 2 - Navy 2011-16
* Countless friends and extended family

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

https://military.stanford.edu/community/what-military-affiliated
Hmmmmmm, by that definition I'm Military Affiliated three ways. Never thought of it that way before. I worked in the Navy nuclear propulsion program right after college for 6 years, worked for the Army in ammunition production oversight for 7 years, and have a brother who was a Navy aircraft carrier jet jockey, served 21 years and retired as Commander.

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

:agree: BUT protesting was not what he was being paid to do. He was a representative of the Team and the League and IMHO he was not doing his job and he was fired for it, also IMO the coach and the owner who allowed this behavior should have been disciplined/fined by the league also. I as a fan pay for entertainment and if I don't get what I paid for I'm free to go elsewhere, just like going to a different dealer if I don't like the service. If you want to protest do it on your own time and on your own dime. Don't waste my time and money.
I fought for this country when it wasn't popular to do so and I just think there was a better way he could have done this.
Every Redneck I know has said this at one time "it seemed like a good idea at the time"

while kapernick is not working where is he protesting or donating his time?

[Bob Denman]

He's busy in Court: suing the NFL... :banghead:

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

He's busy in Court: suing the NFL... :banghead:

if he is not doing so 10 hours a day then i guess he is just full of s**t about the 'cause'.

[BoilerAnimal]

Actually, Kapernick is fulfilling his promise. http://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2017/10/donald-trump-brags-giving-charity-colin-kaepernick-does/

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

Actually, Kapernick is fulfilling his promise. http://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2017/10/donald-trump-brags-giving-charity-colin-kaepernick-does/

i would like to know is the money from the foundation his or those who donated? for me $100 would be $500,000 on his level. i am
not knocking that he is trying to help but i want to know does he cry loud or work to stop the problems he preaches about?
when my aunt nancy started the susie komen breast cancer thing she and her parients put millions $$ into it and spent all
their time with it for many years. what kind of investment is kaepernick looking to do?

[Firefly]

if he is not doing so 10 hours a day then i guess he is just full of s**t about the 'cause'.

For starters he works out every day to be prepared if he gets called up. He's donated plenty of money and time to various charities as well.

He's probably donated and done more than everyone on this thread combined.....

The (manufactured) outrage over this kneeling is ridiculous and wasn't an issue until the orange idiot wouldn't shut his mouth about it. One would think he'd have better things to concentrate on than a stupid football game and what players are doing or not doing. We have SERIOUS issues our country is facing, yet this is a big issue that is taking up the headlines? :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

[Firefly]

He's busy in Court: suing the NFL... :banghead:

He's not in court.. he has attorneys for that. I'm glad he's suing them. If they have systematically blocked him from employment due to his freedom of speech on this issue, then they should be sued.

__________________________

This should be of interest to many as well.. especially those who hate socialism.... ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=bNbMPz5CPY8

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

this is what i read in a rule book for nfl:
Throughout the period on game-day that a player is visible to the stadium and television audience (including in pregame warm-ups, in the bench area, and during postgame interviews in the locker room or on the field), players are prohibited from wearing, displaying, or otherwise conveying personal messages either in writing or illustration, unless such message has been approved in advance by the League office. Items to celebrate anniversaries or memorable events, or to honor or commemorate individuals, such as helmet decals, and arm bands and jersey patches on players’ uniforms, are prohibited unless approved in advance by the League office. All such items approved by the League office, if any, must relate to team or League events or personages. The League will not grant permission for any club or player to wear, display, or otherwise convey messages, through helmet decals, arm bands, jersey patches, or other items affixed to game uniforms or equipment, which relate to political activities or causes, other non-football events, causes or campaigns, or charitable causes or campaigns. Further, any such approved items must be modest in size, tasteful, non-commercial, and noncontroversial; must not be worn for more than one football season; and if approved for use by a specific team, must not be worn by players on other teams in the League.

he never got approval to do so and i think it might be considered controversial.

[UtahPete]

This should be of interest to many as well.. especially those who hate socialism.... ;)

I like my socialized medicine aka VA Healthcare.

Socialism is an economic system that gets confused with communism, which is a political system.

The antithesis of Socialism is Capitalism, not Democracy.

[BoilerAnimal]

Thanks Firefly, I absolutely love Bill Maher's commentaries.

As far as socialism is concerned, research "Nordic Model".

[BoilerAnimal]

this is what i read in a rule book for nfl:
Throughout the period on game-day that a player is visible to the stadium and television audience (including in pregame warm-ups, in the bench area, and during postgame interviews in the locker room or on the field), players are prohibited from wearing, displaying, or otherwise conveying personal messages either in writing or illustration, unless such message has been approved in advance by the League office. Items to celebrate anniversaries or memorable events, or to honor or commemorate individuals, such as helmet decals, and arm bands and jersey patches on players’ uniforms, are prohibited unless approved in advance by the League office. All such items approved by the League office, if any, must relate to team or League events or personages. The League will not grant permission for any club or player to wear, display, or otherwise convey messages, through helmet decals, arm bands, jersey patches, or other items affixed to game uniforms or equipment, which relate to political activities or causes, other non-football events, causes or campaigns, or charitable causes or campaigns. Further, any such approved items must be modest in size, tasteful, non-commercial, and noncontroversial; must not be worn for more than one football season; and if approved for use by a specific team, must not be worn by players on other teams in the League.

he never got approval to do so and i think it might be considered controversial.


If it's that important, sue him.

[2Paw]

He's not in court.. he has attorneys for that. I'm glad he's suing them. If they have systematically blocked him from employment due to his freedom of speech on this issue, then they should be sued.

If they have blocked him from employment due to his freedom of speech, then they should be sued. But is he just not employable because of the controversy. I also think he was in violation of his terms of employment maybe should have only been disciplined, the first time but he continued to violate the terms, so you're fired. I've seen it happen in the corporate world and even as a manager was forced to fire someone for that reason. Do you think if he promises not to do it anymore he might find a job with another team? If he won't then maybe it's his own fault he doesn't have a job. It all makes by brain hurt and I don't have enough facts to figure it out anyway. :banghead:

[ARtraveler]

There is a good argument for K not being employed because he has lost his luster as an accomplished QB. The first year--he "led" his team to the Super Bowl. Subsequent--not so much. Words that he is not a team player, does not like the plays etc. have come into focus. Going to be hard to prove the intent of the lawsuit--IMO.

[Bob Denman]

Why should the owner of ANY business have to hire somebody who has proven to be disruptive in the work environment? :dontknow:
It's not about his "Freedom of Speech". nojoke
That doesn't exist in the workplace...

[UtahPete]

And now, to get this thread back onto its original theme; Watch this if you think #TakeAKnee (https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/takeaknee?source=feed_text&story_id=10215148663216294) protests are 'disrespecting the flag'

https://www.facebook.com/NowThisPolitics/videos/1719676148063868/

[Bob Denman]

And now, to get this thread back onto its original theme; Watch this if you think #TakeAKnee (https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/takeaknee?source=feed_text&story_id=10215148663216294) protests are 'disrespecting the flag'
nojokeYes!

[UtahPete]

nojokeYes!

Well, that's it then.

[ARtraveler]

Enjoy. :bowdown::bowdown::bowdown:

[UtahPete]

Enjoy. :bowdown::bowdown::bowdown:

And you had the temerity to suggest this argument couldn't be won ...! Au contraire, mon ami, Bob just won it with a big ol' YES!

[ARtraveler]

Pass the crow sandwich I guess. Hold the ketchup. :roflblack::roflblack:

[Bob Denman]

And you had the temerity to suggest this argument couldn't be won ...! Au contraire, mon ami, Bob just won it with a big ol' YES!
:shocked: Do you mean that we could have stopped this foolishness back on Page One? :gaah:

[UtahPete]

:shocked: Do you mean that we could have stopped this foolishness back on Page One? :gaah:

Yeah, we were just waiting for you to step up and tell us the unmitigated truth. But, no, you've just gotta go pussy-footin' around the subject for a week or more. Pure torture....

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

it doesn't matter what others do, kaepernaki among many others in my opinion is disrespecting this country that gives him the
right most other countries would never allow. he can protest but he needs to do so on his time not that for which others pay for.
now if he & other players wish to pay the admission fee then they can do what they want up until then PLAY BALL.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

An interesting interview on NPR today about how it all began.

http://www.npr.org/2017/10/17/558390590/former-green-beret-and-pro-football-player-talks-about-take-a-knee-protests

Here's part of the interview with Nate Boyer, a former Green Beret and pro player with Seattle Seahawks.


BOYER: It was right before the last preseason game last year in San Diego in the team hotel. And we talked for a couple hours about everything. I mean it was military appreciation day in the stadium. 9/11's approaching. And he was sensitive to that. You know, he was - he didn't want to offend veterans. He didn't want to offend people in the military and even police officers that do it the right way every day. So, you know, I urged him to stand and then take action because that's really how this change will happen. And he said, no, I'm committed to sitting until I feel that things are changing and that we're moving in the right direction. And so through that conversation, I guess we agreed on a middle ground, with him taking a knee alongside his teammates.


MCEVERS: What was it about kneeling that you were OK with as a veteran?


BOYER: Yeah. I mean, for me, that's a sign of reverence. You know, people take a knee to say a prayer. And then, also, military personnel - it's very common to see an image of a soldier or Marine or an airman or a sailor take a knee in front of a fallen - you know, a fallen brother in arms' grave to pay respects. So I just thought it was better. You know, and it showed more about that he's paying attention, as well. He's not, in a sense, sitting it out. You know what I mean? He's engaged.

[UtahPete]

An interesting interview on NPR today about how it all began. http://www.npr.org/2017/10/17/558390590/former-green-beret-and-pro-football-player-talks-about-take-a-knee-protests Here's part of the interview with Nate Boyer, a former Green Beret and pro player with Seattle Seahawks.

Fake news! So sad!

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

i didn't know kapernaki served in the military. i'm sure he donates his time of which now he has a lot of to vet organizations. i was very
wrong about him. NOT
oh, i was wondering has kapernaki made any statements about players who beat wives/girlfriends, drug use, fights or any other things
that might plague professional sports?

[Firefly]

And now, to get this thread back onto its original theme; Watch this if you think #TakeAKnee (https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/takeaknee?source=feed_text&story_id=10215148663216294) protests are 'disrespecting the flag'

https://www.facebook.com/NowThisPolitics/videos/1719676148063868/






EXACTLY !!!

Furthermore, the Supreme Court decided in 1943 that no one can be required to stand for the pledge... and this was before they added the 'under god' nonsense to it in the 1950's.

[Firefly]

i didn't know kapernaki served in the military. i'm sure he donates his time of which now he has a lot of to vet organizations. i was very
wrong about him. NOT
oh, i was wondering has kapernaki made any statements about players who beat wives/girlfriends, drug use, fights or any other things
that might plague professional sports?


Straw man arguments.

Everyone has different issues that are important to them. No one can take them all on. He chose the systematic, unjust killing of black males by police. His choice. His freedom.

[Rogue Hawk]

Straw man arguments.
the systematic, unjust killing of black males by police.

There are random incidents, yes. But you have to prove it with an unbiased source if you claim its systematic.

[Bob Denman]

:agree:
Tragic: yes! :banghead:
Systematic?
Explain to me how this great conspiracy was hatched? :dontknow:

[UtahPete]

Tragic: yes! :banghead: Systematic? Explain to me how this great conspiracy was hatched? :dontknow:

Maybe he meant systemic.

[Firefly]

Maybe he meant systemic.

Nope.. I meant systematic.

Blacks in America have been systematically oppressed since they were 'freed'. Jim Crow. Sundowner laws. Segregation. Incarceration. Police brutality.
Blacks are generally treated differently by police. They have a much better chance of being shot or beaten. If arrested they generally do considerably more time than a white counterpart does for the same crime.

They are not treated the same or fairly in general. There is plenty of evidence to support this.

If people seriously don't understand that, then they're in denial.

[UtahPete]

Nope.. I meant systematic. Blacks in America have been systematically oppressed since they were 'freed'. Jim Crow. Sundowner laws. Segregation. Incarceration. Police brutality. Blacks are generally treated differently by police. They have a much better chance of being shot or beaten. If arrested they generally do considerably more time than a white counterpart does for the same crime. They are not treated the same or fairly in general. There is plenty of evidence to support this. If people seriously don't understand that, then they're in denial.

Obviously, I agree with you that we have a long way to go in race relations in this country. But, I agree with Bob; to say there is a systematic pogrom afoot implies a conspiracy. The Nazis' eradication of Jews was systematic; our mistreatment of minorities in this country I don't think is. I think there are pockets of bigotry and hatred and mistrust in the US - some of them quite large - but I don't believe there is a concerted effort country-wide to deny blacks or any other 'protected' minority their rights.

[Firefly]

Obviously, I agree with you that we have a long way to go in race relations in this country. But, I agree with Bob; to say there is a systematic pogrom afoot implies a conspiracy. The Nazis' eradication of Jews was systematic; our mistreatment of minorities in this country I don't think is. I think there are pockets of bigotry and hatred and mistrust in the US - some of them quite large - but I don't believe there is a concerted effort country-wide to deny blacks or any other 'protected' minority their rights.

Okay... fair enough... how about widespread instead then..

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

ok i would like anyone on here or kapernaki to tell me why there are no protests against the mormon church since in their bible it says
dark skin is a curse or evil or something like that. the koran has statements from mohammad calling blacks raisin head & that whites
are superior to blacks.
wouldn't this outright racism be a lot more important to protest and make people aware of? i'm sure kapernaki might have some muslim
teammates he should be talking to, and understand this according to the koran you can not be a good muslim unless you believe and
follow all that mohammad says.
the kkk and the very small percentage of police who absolutely are racist are a minute fraction compared to these 2 religions in the u.s.

[Firefly]

ok i would like anyone on here or kapernaki to tell me why there are no protests against the mormon church since in their bible it says
dark skin is a curse or evil or something like that. the koran has statements from mohammad calling blacks raisin head & that whites
are superior to blacks.
wouldn't this outright racism be a lot more important to protest and make people aware of? i'm sure kapernaki might have some muslim
teammates he should be talking to, and understand this according to the koran you can not be a good muslim unless you believe and
follow all that mohammad says.
the kkk and the very small percentage of police who absolutely are racist are a minute fraction compared to these 2 religions in the u.s.

There's far more racism within Christian organizations in the USA than the Mormons and Muslims in the USA combined......

Also.. please go take a theology 101 class before posting about religions you obviously know nothing about.....

It's this kind of misinformation that is destroying America....

[Pirate looks at --]

There's far more racism within Christian organizations in the USA than the Mormons and Muslims in the USA combined......

Also.. please go take a theology 101 class before posting about religions you obviously know nothing about.....

It's this kind of misinformation that is destroying America....
Indeed when you source of education is the neighborhood bar, and that is how you form your opinions, we are all in trouble!:yikes:

[Pirate looks at --]

True Pete! But I can't give up my caffeine!!! :yikes:

[BoilerAnimal]

Indeed when you source of education is the neighborhood bar, and that is how you form your opinions, we are all in trouble!:yikes:



Far too many Americans get their news from only one source and that source may not even be a reputable one. When you limit your news sources, you set yourself up to be woefully uninformed and easily misled by false claims or manipulation of facts.

[wyliec]

Mormons are Christians. "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints"

And, since this is a thread on patriotism, maybe all American theists should join the Mormon church. It is, after all, the only authentic American church, untainted by 2000 years of foreign traditions and holy wars.

Do you have scientific proof? Who was the scientist, and where was he credentialed, and in what year? Does he/she (transgender) also shear sheep, while eating a pastrami sandwich? All while on one knee, which was just replaced recently, and is awaiting bilateral hip replacements.

I think that covers it.

Who is on first?

[ARtraveler]

Actually, if the US had a national church, it would have to be the Mormon church. It is the only authentic, original, made-in-America religion. Everything else is a foreign import and would be subject to an import tariff.

Christian Science (Mary Baker Eddy), Jehovah's Witnesses (don't remember the name of founder), also come to mind.

[Bob Denman]

Actually, if the US had a national church, it would have to be the Mormon church. It is the only authentic, original, made-in-America religion. Everything else is a foreign import and would be subject to an import tariff.

This is absolutely a non-issue: we have safeguards in place to prevent the existence of a "national church"...
Why bring it up? :dontknow:

[Bob Denman]

Of course it's a non-issue. But interesting to contemplate don't you think in light of the religious bigotry that is expressed every day by red-blooded, bible-thumping citizens?
I prefer to think about the possibilities, and not waste time on things that will never be... :D

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

Well, your ignorance and religious bias is on full display in this post. I think I know now where you prefer to get your information from.

What we should be concerned about in this country is the perpetuation of misinformation for political and economic gain.

Not that you will change your beliefs, but the Mormon Church is actually called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints; they have the same Bible as you do. They have additional texts to guide their daily life and behavior, just as does the Catholic Church and other major religions.

If you really knew the Old Testament, you wouldn't be so quick to judge Islam as being racist, misogynistic or anything else that is anathema to our modern society (you know, the one with football).

YES i admit i am racist for reading the koran, judeo/christian bible , mormon bible and others and not interpreting just straight reading. but what i do know is up until the late '80's blacks were not allowed to be mormons and the reason they allow them is because they were opening up churches on the continent of africa. now as for the koran, it is the absolute word of allah and can not be altered. so
everything in it is true today and must be followed verbatim. so in essence a radical muslim is one who does not follow all that the
koran says so they may not be racist or beat their wives, a good muslim does so. as for the judeo/christian bible most people today
use them as allegories and don't follow it exactly and only the good that is stated in it.
Perhaps if you read more and attacked less you might know this to be true. If i truly were racist or ignorant i might follow religion
but alas i don't, i apologize.
Oh, by the way, do you know anyone who actually follows the old testament?
Now back on point a little, why does the kkk hate blacks & burn crosses? i am just saying these are the people that the protests
should be against since they are the ones (a**h***s & religious fanatics) that have a higher propensity towards hate then the
average joe or johnny law.

[ARtraveler]

WARNING, WARNING, WARNING

Time to turn down the rhetoric you three. Your going to get the thread closed or deleted. The line has been crossed a whole bunch of times.

I would consider deleting a couple of the most recent posts, I am guessing the black triangles are showing up or some are thinking about them. Not me--so far. :thumbup:

[Bob Denman]

WARNING, WARNING, WARNING

Time to turn down the rhetoric you three. Your going to get the thread closed or deleted. The line has been crossed a whole bunch of times.

I would consider deleting a couple of the most recent posts, I am guessing the black triangles are showing up or some are thinking about them. Not me--so far. :thumbup:

:agree::agree::agree::agree::agree::agree::agree:: agree::agree::agree::agree::agree::agree::agree::a gree::agree::agree:

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

:agree: