Rear Tire Change/Belt alignment/excessive driveline drag

[DGoebel]

So, I changed my rear tire per Finless Bob's instructions, using the shock bolt removal method. That way wouldn't have to realign the belt. The belt should go back to where it was before. VERY carefully following his and others recommendations to avoid changing belt alignment. But my belt is now hugging the inner flange, so I go to the thread Belt Adjustment video, watch that video, and when I try to do what he's doing, my back tire barely spins unless I give it some gas. Like there's a lot of drag on the wheel (though the belt is right up on the inner flange).
Idea's anyone, dealers locally are swamped and can't get me in for weeks, I'm prepping for first Spyderfest...

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Something is binding ....... I would get rear tire off ground ..... loosen axel nut ..... will rear tire/wheel rotate ( by hand ) freely ???? ( with belt still on ) .... How tight is the belt ( it shouldn't have changed - if you did it Bob's method ) ....... Mike

[SpyderAnn01]

Are your brake pads hung up on the springs? Double check and make sure they are in the proper place.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Are your brake pads hung up on the springs? Double check and make sure they are in the proper place.
:agree: ........... make sure ..parking brake is free also :dontknow: ...... Mike

[trikermutha]

How tight is the axle nut? Bearing bind? Just throwing that out there along with others suggest.

Did you take off the rear pulley at all??

[PW2013STL]

Dave,

If you are still having problems I can come over Sunday and help.

Les

[DGoebel]

Les, Please, I'm going through the above mentioned steps but belt tension is something I can't check yet. Heading to the local Harley dealer to see if they have a belt tension tester.

I did follow Bob's video and several other tips mentioned explicitly, but had a hard time keeping the right rear tension adjuster cap tight to the swing arm, seems ever time I tightened the nut it would slide back, and I'd have to push on the tire to tighten it back up.......
But all in all, I've now done rear tire and an oil change solo first time... wheeeeeeee

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Les, Please, I'm going through the above mentioned steps but belt tension is something I can't check yet. Heading to the local Harley dealer to see if they have a belt tension tester.

I did follow Bob's video and several other tips mentioned explicitly, but had a hard time keeping the right rear tension adjuster cap tight to the swing arm, seems ever time I tightened the nut it would slide back, and I'd have to push on the tire to tighten it back up.......
But all in all, I've now done rear tire and an oil change solo first time... wheeeeeeee
IF , you followed the video - and the adjuster cap wasn't loose to begin with ....... then you did something , because that CAP shouldn't be loose NOW ..... Everything should have returned to what it was before ............ Pushing on the tire should cause the belt to loosen .....unless the adjusters weren't tight to the axel to begin with ..... and this is possible if done at the dealer ............. sending :pray::pray::pray: ..... Mike :thumbup:

[DGoebel]

Removed Rear Wheel and Tire, thought trikermutha might have had a point, I did remove the drive hub and the disk brake hubs, didn't check bearings much, but on re-disassembly the bearing on the disk brake side doesn't spin like the bearing on the drive hub side....

[Warlock]

Removed Rear Wheel and Tire, thought trikermutha might have had a point, I did remove the drive hub and the disk brake hubs, didn't check bearings much, but on re-disassembly the bearing on the disk brake side doesn't spin like the bearing on the drive hub side....

Check and make sure you didn't leave a spacer out of the rear end.
David

[DGoebel]

OOOOHHHHH this is fun, I think I over-torqued the inner-hub to wheel bolts, when I was reassembling the wheel assembly. Are the two bearings on either end of the spacer tube supposed to spin independantly of each on on proper assembly or does the spacer tube lock those two bearings to spin as a single assembly inside the wheel?

[Warlock]

OOOOHHHHH this is fun, I think I over-torqued the inner-hub to wheel bolts, when I was reassembling the wheel assembly. Are the two bearings on either end of the spacer tube supposed to spin independantly of each on on proper assembly or does the spacer tube lock those two bearings to spin as a single assembly inside the wheel?

There is a spacer that goes on the brake side. Very easy to leave out. It fits between the outer bearing and the bracket that holds the caliper. If you leave it out once you torque the rear axle you can turn the wheel, but is hard to turn.
David

[DGoebel]

Nope I even used Engine Oil and BRP Grease where the service manual shows when re-assembling and made sure both spacers were in proper locations. But I've now found that when I try to torque the inner hub to the wheel (even at half torque value of 27lbf-ft) the bearings and tube become unmovable, when loose the bearings spin like they should, but as soon as I tighten those 5 inner hub to wheel bolts (using the time tested cross pattern and gradually increasing torque each time around / across the points) the bearings are locked.

Anyone know if that spacer tube is really necessary.... Just thinking if it's not in the bearings spin fine, but it may actually keep the disk side bearing in too.

[DGoebel]

Yea, I marked each piece I removed with index markers to insure I reassembled all components as they came apart, I even keep the bolts and nuts in a weekly pill manager so the pairs stay together and bolt 1 goes back into hole one... as soon as I hand tighten the inner hub bolts, not even torquing them, the bearings stop spinning, they spin fine under no load, I've dis-assembled and re-assembled twice more today.
I never did check those bearings before the initial disassembly, checked the one in the drive hub and it was spinning as it does now, but not the middle and disk side...... All local BRP shops are shut down until Tuesday now, and we're planning on towing the spider down on a trailer. Maybe I'll see if Pitbull or Lamonster can check it when we get there. (busy week though I'm sure.....)

[trikermutha]

Just off the top of my head when reassembling put the axle thru then reassemble . Not sure if this will help but something is not right..

Did the bearings move at all?? where they sit

Are all parts put back correctly>>

[Warlock]

Yea, I marked each piece I removed with index markers to insure I reassembled all components as they came apart, I even keep the bolts and nuts in a weekly pill manager so the pairs stay together and bolt 1 goes back into hole one... as soon as I hand tighten the inner hub bolts, not even torquing them, the bearings stop spinning, they spin fine under no load, I've dis-assembled and re-assembled twice more today.
I never did check those bearings before the initial disassembly, checked the one in the drive hub and it was spinning as it does now, but not the middle and disk side...... All local BRP shops are shut down until Tuesday now, and we're planning on towing the spider down on a trailer. Maybe I'll see if Pitbull or Lamonster can check it when we get there. (busy week though I'm sure.....)
http://www.powersportswarehouse.com/p/Parts#/Can-Am_(Bombardier)/Spyder_RT%7c%7eRTS_SE5%2c_2013/08-_Drive_System%2c_Rear/85401/84597
Look at p/n 250. Did you put it in correctly. Also #240. Don't know if you removed it or not. I'm thinking one side is shorter than the other.
David

[PW2013STL]

Les, Please, I'm going through the above mentioned steps but belt tension is something I can't check yet. Heading to the local Harley dealer to see if they have a belt tension tester.

I did follow Bob's video and several other tips mentioned explicitly, but had a hard time keeping the right rear tension adjuster cap tight to the swing arm, seems ever time I tightened the nut it would slide back, and I'd have to push on the tire to tighten it back up.......
But all in all, I've now done rear tire and an oil change solo first time... wheeeeeeee

Dave,

send me me your address and I will ride out tomorrow. How early are you available?

lkingen@gmail.com

Les

[DGoebel]

trikermutha, Yep, I found that tip in one of the vids or the comments or posts here on SpyderLovers. It helped line the spacer tube (140 in the parts diagram Warlocks post refers to.) up between the bearings (150). And those bearings spin real nice, until I start tightening the bolts (120 / 130 ).

Warlock, yep, I have the same breakdown in the BRP Service manual and lubed each with Motor Oil, lubed the axle etc. Double checked all the torque values. Used a torque wrench with no or the shortest possible extension, I routinely torque bolts / nuts to half torque, 3/4, then full.

[SpyderAnn01]

What in the heck did you do??? :gaah:

[DGoebel]

DiIk????? Les is coming tomorrow, I've got a trailer lined up and the nearest 8 BRP service shops lined up by their distance and opening time on Monday morning in the hopes someone can let me slide in line before we pack up for Spyderfest. I'll also be calling Pitbull and Lamonster on Monday if none of the local shops can handle my issue before Tuesday at 5 PM when we leave MN for MO.

[Jim&Teresa]

Hi Dave,

I hope all goes well for you! I think if it's binding that hard, there is a spacer missing, misplaced, misaligned, etc. Also, easy to check the rear brake clearance and spin....I doubt if it's the bearings as it ran fine before the tire change....something has moved to a binding place - I know you marked all parts and followed the directions, i.e. torque, etc. However, one part just a little off can be binding the whole system. We have church in the morning, but Sunday afternoon I could come down to help as well if you and Les are still analyzing it! Just let me now and I'll be there if you would like another set of eyes on it!

[DGoebel]

Les is planning on being here in Faribault at noonish, c'mon down, I've reassembled it but the 4th time I didn't bother torquing any bolts beyond standard ratchet pull, planning on tomorrows disassembly with Les.

[trikermutha]

Good Luck and let us know what you Guys find out :thumbup:

[Jim&Teresa]

Les is planning on being here in Faribault at noonish, c'mon down, I've reassembled it but the 4th time I didn't bother torquing any bolts beyond standard ratchet pull, planning on tomorrows disassembly with Les.


Hi Dave,

I can be there around noonish as well....see you then! It's a GREAT reason to get out and ride - to help another Spyderlover!! :thumbup:

Jim

[Warlock]

Les is planning on being here in Faribault at noonish, c'mon down, I've reassembled it but the 4th time I didn't bother torquing any bolts beyond standard ratchet pull, planning on tomorrows disassembly with Les.
Did ya'll find the problem with the bike?
David

[trikermutha]

:popcorn::popcorn:

[DGoebel]

With 2 to 3 Spyder Guys helping, observing, checking, disassembling, carefully checking every little thing, we know this...
Les had the magic tool to back off the inner wheel bearing keeper Part #160 on the schematic, that bearing, when the inner hub isn't mounted spins properly, feels good like a good bearing should.
When the inner hub is NOT mounted to the wheel, it's bearing spins appropriately, etc, etc. When we mounted the innerhub to the wheel with the spacer, they locked up solid. We used Les' homemade tool to back off that keeper, torqued the innerhub mounting bolts and nuts to half torque, and they spun but much tighter. When we torqued them all the way, NO SPIN, it's as if the spacer tube stretched or something. So we bolt it all back together and we mounted the wheel without belt and brake caliper and it spins a little better maybe. Then we add the belt, add the caliper and it's tight again.... many bad thoughts coursing through my head, but I didn't utter a one.....
We re connect the shock bolt, sensor bolt on the left, manually adjust the tension (Les did this by the twist the belt method first, then we measured it with Jim's Krikit and darned if Les doesn't have a calibrated belt tension checker on the end of his arm...) 2013 belt = 160 and the Krikit said it was 160) now we do the belt alignment (cause I've had this wheel off and on 5 times this weekend) and we seem to have it tracking true.
Jim heads back up 'nort to go home and Les and I head for a tour of Faribault on the way to a nice restaurant and my rear brake is definitely heating up, over heating, now making sounds... We eat lunch, late, and head back to my garage, cool and remove the caliper (wheel does still spin but not like any of my past bikes when up on jacks or stands or lifts) inspect the caliper and open up the brake pads manually, slip it back on and no change.
It's now on a trailer behind my truck, tomorrow's adventure includes driving at the crack of dawn to the nearest dealer to be there when their doors open and see if they can slip my bike in, I then have phone numbers for 2 dealers in northern Iowa, 2 over closer to the Mississippi in Mn and then others points north in the hopes that someone can slip my Spyder in and check out the rear wheel/brake/bearings tomorrow......:banghead:

[trikermutha]

somehow it sounds like one of the bearings was moved.



TIGHTENING TORQUE Wheel hub bolts 48 N•m (35 lbf•ft)rbs2012-008-003_a HUB BOLTS TIGHTENING SEQUENCE 4. Insert the spacer in the hubuntil it contacts the bearing inner race. rbs2012-008-004_a 5. Press the RHbearing in the hub. 5.1 Apply a thin layer of XPS SYNTHETIC GREASE (P/N 293 550010) all around the bearing outer race. 5.2 Install the assembly on the pressas shown 5.3 Push bearing until the spacer comes in contact with each bearinginner race. REQUIRED TOOLS REAR WHEEL BEARING PUSHER (P/N 529 036 246) (Bothrequired) rbs2012-008-005_a CUTAWAY VIEW 1. Bearing pusher pushing on the RHbearing (in hub) 2. RH bearing 3. Spacer 4. Hub 5. LH bearing (in wheel) 6.Bearing pusher supporting the LH bearing NOTICE Bearing pushers must be in goodcondition and remain in contact with outer and inner bearing races whilepressing.

[DGoebel]

That was my thought, that the wheel bearing somehow moved inward, as that was the only part out of my sight, but that still doesn't make sense how a tire demount remount could affect that bearing., the inner hub and all bits and pieces were stacked on towels and all lubed up where the manual says to before assembly (5 times).

still :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :gaah:

If I can find a local service guy to look at it tomorrow (Mon) or Tues morning I'll report back with their findings, otherwise I'm hauling it to Springfield and seeing if Pitbull or Lamonster or someone local down there can fit me in.
I can still have all the farkle's I need installed or evaluated while we're down there.

Hmm, wondering just how many folks have attended spyderfest WITHOUT a working spyder......

[Warlock]

With 2 to 3 Spyder Guys helping, observing, checking, disassembling, carefully checking every little thing, we know this...
Les had the magic tool to back off the inner wheel bearing keeper Part #160 on the schematic, that bearing, when the inner hub isn't mounted spins properly, feels good like a good bearing should.
When the inner hub is NOT mounted to the wheel, it's bearing spins appropriately, etc, etc. When we mounted the innerhub to the wheel with the spacer, they locked up solid. We used Les' homemade tool to back off that keeper, torqued the innerhub mounting bolts and nuts to half torque, and they spun but much tighter. When we torqued them all the way, NO SPIN, it's as if the spacer tube stretched or something. So we bolt it all back together and we mounted the wheel without belt and brake caliper and it spins a little better maybe. Then we add the belt, add the caliper and it's tight again.... many bad thoughts coursing through my head, but I didn't utter a one.....
We re connect the shock bolt, sensor bolt on the left, manually adjust the tension (Les did this by the twist the belt method first, then we measured it with Jim's Krikit and darned if Les doesn't have a calibrated belt tension checker on the end of his arm...) 2013 belt = 160 and the Krikit said it was 160) now we do the belt alignment (cause I've had this wheel off and on 5 times this weekend) and we seem to have it tracking true.
Jim heads back up 'nort to go home and Les and I head for a tour of Faribault on the way to a nice restaurant and my rear brake is definitely heating up, over heating, now making sounds... We eat lunch, late, and head back to my garage, cool and remove the caliper (wheel does still spin but not like any of my past bikes when up on jacks or stands or lifts) inspect the caliper and open up the brake pads manually, slip it back on and no change.
It's now on a trailer behind my truck, tomorrow's adventure includes driving at the crack of dawn to the nearest dealer to be there when their doors open and see if they can slip my bike in, I then have phone numbers for 2 dealers in northern Iowa, 2 over closer to the Mississippi in Mn and then others points north in the hopes that someone can slip my Spyder in and check out the rear wheel/brake/bearings tomorrow......:banghead:

Doesn't make since. I could understand if part 240 was installed wrong. You could have some bad bearings. What you are describing all this locks up even before you use part 240 spacer.
David

[SpyderAnn01]

Why did you remove the hub? We changed two rear tires this week and we just remove the pulley and the rubber Cush drive.

[jcthorne]

Why did you remove the hub? We changed two rear tires this week and we just remove the pulley and the rubber Cush drive.


We
have to remove the brake rotor but not the hub. In the new (2015+) wheels, the hub is not even removable.

[jcthorne]

That was my thought, that the wheel bearing somehow moved inward, as that was the only part out of my sight, but that still doesn't make sense how a tire demount remount could affect that bearing., the inner hub and all bits and pieces were stacked on towels and all lubed up where the manual says to before assembly (5 times).

still :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :gaah:

If I can find a local service guy to look at it tomorrow (Mon) or Tues morning I'll report back with their findings, otherwise I'm hauling it to Springfield and seeing if Pitbull or Lamonster or someone local down there can fit me in.
I can still have all the farkle's I need installed or evaluated while we're down there.

Hmm, wondering just how many folks have attended spyderfest WITHOUT a working spyder......


Better call ahead. MOST BRP dealers (like most all motorcycle shops) are closed on Sunday and Monday.

Wish you were closer. I keep those bearings and rear wheel parts in stock. Would be glad to give you a hand.

[DGoebel]

Why did I remove the hub, cause the local tire shop that would mount the tire on the wheel (normally only does cage tires) looked at the Wheel and inner hub assembly and asked me to. They did the install without me having to make a 4 - 6 hour round trip. Alas, when I removed the hub, I kept the hub and spacer together, all bolts, nuts, etc indexed and sorted. And reassembled in the same order disassembled...

SO today, I made two round trips to a dealer about 50 miles away, spyder on trailer, they DID get my spyder into their mechanic 2nd in line no less, he pulled and replaced and reseated the inner hub and wheel bearings, checked the brakes, aligned and tensioned the belt, took it for a 5 mile check ride and thought he'd solved the issue. I took the bike for a check ride of about 1 1/2 miles (it was after 5:30 or so And I still had to trailer it home 50 miles). It seemed to be good. Brought it home, drove around the block, verified the belt alignment, then took it for a longer 4 - 5 mile ride, and the binding sound is back, right at the end of that ride, I putzed around in 1st gear, holding my phone on video record mode to capture the sound (https://goo.gl/photos/LaRwhW7jb85ZUiWr8), but the bike is packed on the trailer, we're leaving for Spyderfest and I'm calling Pitbull in the morning to see if they can look at it Wednesday, Thursday or Friday, if not I'm gonna trailer it right back home after getting some tricled's safety bundle installed on Thursday and enjoying 4 days of not working, and time off with my wife, once it is fixed we know we'll have plenty of GREAT SPYDER RIDES Ahead.... with a new tire no less....:sour:

[Warlock]

Why did I remove the hub, cause the local tire shop that would mount the tire on the wheel (normally only does cage tires) looked at the Wheel and inner hub assembly and asked me to. They did the install without me having to make a 4 - 6 hour round trip. Alas, when I removed the hub, I kept the hub and spacer together, all bolts, nuts, etc indexed and sorted. And reassembled in the same order disassembled...

SO today, I made two round trips to a dealer about 50 miles away, spyder on trailer, they DID get my spyder into their mechanic 2nd in line no less, he pulled and replaced and reseated the inner hub and wheel bearings, checked the brakes, aligned and tensioned the belt, took it for a 5 mile check ride and thought he'd solved the issue. I took the bike for a check ride of about 1 1/2 miles (it was after 5:30 or so And I still had to trailer it home 50 miles). It seemed to be good. Brought it home, drove around the block, verified the belt alignment, then took it for a longer 4 - 5 mile ride, and the binding sound is back, right at the end of that ride, I putzed around in 1st gear, holding my phone on video record mode to capture the sound, but the bike is packed on the trailer, we're leaving for Spyderfest and I'm calling Pitbull in the morning to see if they can look at it Wednesday, Thursday or Friday, if not I'm gonna trailer it right back home after getting some tricled's safety bundle installed on Thursday and enjoying 4 days of not working, and time off with my wife, once it is fixed we know we'll have plenty of GREAT SPYDER RIDES Ahead.... with a new tire no less....:sour:
Pitbull should be able to fix you up.
David

[trikermutha]

That don't sound too good..Good Luck :thumbup:

[DGoebel]

We'll we are OVERJOYED to have got the bike down here to SF, Pit Bull Powersports Service guys, Paul, Jason, and Sean (I think) got us in on Wed, and Again Thursday (after we had TricLED's Ultimate Safety Bundle + installed at Vendor Village :thumbup:) and we ALL thought we had the issue resolved, but on our drive to our lodging (closer to the Fairgrounds) after PBPs closed the sound returned.

Spoke tonight to one of the BRP factory reps here at SF and he's going to try to get the BRP tech's down here with him to check out the bike.....

FIRST and FOREMOST, I am VERY Happy with the attention and service efforts Pit Bull folks have put in on our behalf as walk-in customer's, with NO appointment, no past history, and during what must be the busiest time of their year. Pit Bull has valiantly and doggedly tried to stop the sound and its lessened and taken longer to occur, so we're hoping to see if the BRP tech's can find something different.

I consider us blessed that we could get the Ultimate Safety Bundle + installed this morning by TricLED, and of course, my wife Sharon found several of their organizers for the Frunk, Trunk, and SaddleBags, and I got their Multi-mount Spyder dash Bracket with 3 ball mounts.

We enjoyed a nice BBQ sandwich and beans at the AmLegion tonight and have met many, many nice Spyder folks ( a Whole group that rode up from Mexico).
Rain or not, Bike Gremlins or not, we're have a wonderful experience!

[PW2013STL]

Glad to hear that you and Sharon are having a good time. I hope the BRP techs find the issue. You will have to fill me in when you get home.

Les

[PapaHotel]

BRP reps are here? Are they at the vendor village or lurking elsewhere? I have one issue on my RT I would love to discuss with them.



Hope you get the rear end "right!" See you on the 'morrow.

[pegasus1300]

Les, Please, I'm going through the above mentioned steps but belt tension is something I can't check yet. Heading to the local Harley dealer to see if they have a belt tension tester.

I did follow Bob's video and several other tips mentioned explicitly, but had a hard time keeping the right rear tension adjuster cap tight to the swing arm, seems ever time I tightened the nut it would slide back, and I'd have to push on the tire to tighten it back up.......
But all in all, I've now done rear tire and an oil change solo first time... wheeeeeeee

I also found that when I did it Bob's method I could not get the right cap to stay tight until I tightened the axle up from the right side. Try that.

[DGoebel]

Seems like it became a compound issue, though I had taped the Adjuster/Swing Arm caps to the swing arms, and I really, really followed all the suggestions and FB's video, somehow my rear axle was canted enough to cause the rotor to drag on the pads on the front inboard and rear outboard pads. This caused the excessive friction, caused the rotor to heat up excessively, then either when it cooled or was cooled it warped.
It's possible the canting happened when a local Can-Am shop "aligned" the belt and replaced the bearings to try and fix the original issue. done Deal, won't go back there, Past is Past, should've known it might not be fixed by their expert marine engine repair guy......

Once the Pit Bull Powersports folks (with or without the assistance of the BRP Tech Reps) properly aligned the rear axle, belt tension, and belt tracking, the warped rotor was just off enough to take about 5 miles to warm up enough to start making noises. After replacing the rotor, I was able to ride it (all of 10.6 miles down in Springfield at Spyderfest) before the Monsoon's hit again. Both my wife and I rode around town and never heard a peep out of it.

BEST Spyderfest EVER! (My first, and I got all the farkles I wanted in advance installed professionally, got SQUARED AWAY, by Joe and Ann, got a lot of great deals, and sage advice, and met a lot of nice new folks. We're already planning on Spyders in the Ozarks and next years Spyderfest, They can ONLY get better!

[Bob Denman]

:D :clap: Glad to hear that it is all sorted out, and you're back up, and "on three"! :riding: