DESS Key code again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[trikermutha]

I never said a dealer was doing it .

[jcthorne]

Not very likely ...... the DESS module is extremely limited to what it's SPHERE of influence is/does etc ...... You have been given notice by you Spyder ..... this is the beginning ..... it doesn't self - cure ..... no matter what BS a dealer may tell you ..... If you are coming to the Homecoming look me up and I'll show where my MODULE is now ..... If mine fails, I can fix the problem in less than five minutes with my eyes closed ...... The best BRP tech alive can't say this ....... But then they have to work with OEM Spyders ........... Mike

I can fix any of them in about 5 minutes....but I do need my eyes open.

Will be at the Texas Trike Rally this weekend in Kerrville if anyone needs DESS disabled.

[beaker]

Hi

I think I may've found out the issue...

First post. Have been having the same issues as everyone else with DESS errors. (2014 RS-S).

However, being an Electronic Engineer, I've taken some time to try and work out the pattern between when it does and does not occur. Lots of testing doing this and that and I've come across this.

'Pay-wave' (or whatever you call them) Credit Cards and POS Cards.

YEP

100% DESS error fail if they're in my wallet in pocket and I'm near Spyder when starting.
0% (except one possible false positive) if I stand 2m (6') away putting jacket/helmet on whilst starting.

So when I thought 'WHY' has this started
- well, when I got Spyder I had one pay-wave card - now I have four!!
- recent update in cards from Bank have cards that work from POS terminals from further distance (more sensitive electronics in card)
- Can-Am DESS likely to be using same frequency band as pay-wave and hence cards may be accidentally responding to the security check.

So please anyone else, try to replicate my tests above!!

Greg@Oz

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Hi

I think I may've found out the issue...

First post. Have been having the same issues as everyone else with DESS errors. (2014 RS-S).

However, being an Electronic Engineer, I've taken some time to try and work out the pattern between when it does and does not occur. Lots of testing doing this and that and I've come across this.

'Pay-wave' (or whatever you call them) Credit Cards and POS Cards.

YEP

100% DESS error fail if they're in my wallet in pocket and I'm near Spyder when starting.
0% (except one possible false positive) if I stand 2m (6') away putting jacket/helmet on whilst starting.

So when I thought 'WHY' has this started
- well, when I got Spyder I had one pay-wave card - now I have four!!
- recent update in cards from Bank have cards that work from POS terminals from further distance (more sensitive electronics in card)
- Can-Am DESS likely to be using same frequency band as pay-wave and hence cards may be accidentally responding to the security check.

So please anyone else, try to replicate my tests above!!

Greg@Oz

Well I had one failure 2014 RT ... and Yes I did have a cc in wallet in my rear pocket ... it has a CHIP and a Strip ..... However my card was in pocket for the 18,000+ miles before and I didn't get a DESS failure .... Was it sleeping???? .... Your Ignition Key has a Chip in it that Talks (so to speak) with the ignition Cylinder chip (?) and the range on that is about 4 inches or less .......... I think your theory isn't valid .....HOWEVER, I applaud your thinking about it and trying ..... .........Mike

[Deanna777]

Hi

I think I may've found out the issue...

First post. Have been having the same issues as everyone else with DESS errors. (2014 RS-S).

However, being an Electronic Engineer, I've taken some time to try and work out the pattern between when it does and does not occur. Lots of testing doing this and that and I've come across this.

'Pay-wave' (or whatever you call them) Credit Cards and POS Cards.

YEP

100% DESS error fail if they're in my wallet in pocket and I'm near Spyder when starting.
0% (except one possible false positive) if I stand 2m (6') away putting jacket/helmet on whilst starting.

So when I thought 'WHY' has this started
- well, when I got Spyder I had one pay-wave card - now I have four!!
- recent update in cards from Bank have cards that work from POS terminals from further distance (more sensitive electronics in card)
- Can-Am DESS likely to be using same frequency band as pay-wave and hence cards may be accidentally responding to the security check.

So please anyone else, try to replicate my tests above!!

Greg@Oz

The following info is what I got from my dealership (July 14, 2015) about the D.E.S.S. *** Problem: Intermittently, the ignition key may not be recognized causing the unit not to start. The D.E.S.S. ERROR message will be displayed in the Cluster***

Solution: Replace the D.E.S.S. module. Program the keys using B.U.D.S referring to 2014 RT shop manual section DIGITALLY ENCODED SECURITY SYSTEM.

Technical Explanation:
When the D.E.S.S. module sends its signal to the antenna to read the key chip, the radio frequency produced by the antenna is too strong and the key chip is saturated. The saturation changes the data transmitted back to the D.E.S.S. module causing a bad lecture of the key chip.

They have had cases where a cell phone or magnetic card, placed near the ignition switch cause this. This includes any device that may emit type of frequency.

I have a 2014 RTS-SE6 and have had 2 DESS modules replaced, (July 14, 2015, & Aug. 28, 2015) and on Aug. 28th, 2015, a switch replaced, reprogrammed keys, new trailer lock, reshaped keys, trunk lock. Since then, I have not had the D.E.S.S error. I have 19,700 miles on my Spyder now.

Deanna

[HankD]

Hi

I think I may've found out the issue...

First post. Have been having the same issues as everyone else with DESS errors. (2014 RS-S).

However, being an Electronic Engineer, I've taken some time to try and work out the pattern between when it does and does not occur. Lots of testing doing this and that and I've come across this.

'Pay-wave' (or whatever you call them) Credit Cards and POS Cards.

YEP

100% DESS error fail if they're in my wallet in pocket and I'm near Spyder when starting.
0% (except one possible false positive) if I stand 2m (6') away putting jacket/helmet on whilst starting.

So when I thought 'WHY' has this started
- well, when I got Spyder I had one pay-wave card - now I have four!!
- recent update in cards from Bank have cards that work from POS terminals from further distance (more sensitive electronics in card)
- Can-Am DESS likely to be using same frequency band as pay-wave and hence cards may be accidentally responding to the security check.

So please anyone else, try to replicate my tests above!!

Greg@Oz

Try it with an RFID blocking wallet and with your cards in it. Glad I have one now, just in case. It matches my tinfoil hat also.

[beaker]

Well I had one failure 2014 RT ... and Yes I did have a cc in wallet in my rear pocket ... it has a CHIP and a Strip ..... However my card was in pocket for the 18,000+ miles before and I didn't get a DESS failure .... Was it sleeping ???? .... Your Ignition Key has a Chip in it that Talks ( so to speak ) with the ignition Cylinder chip (?) and the range on that is about 4 inches or less .......... I think your theory isn't valid .....HOWEVER I applaud your thinking about it and trying ..............Mike

Hi

No harm taken from your reply ... However, yes, a positive read may need to be within 4 inches... but the distance an object can be to interfere with one may be much larger.

In my testing, I had to be at least 2 metres away during the entire power on cycle (up to point where 'push mode' comes on) to avoid the DESS error. I also tried this with and without my phone in my pocket or smart watch on (so it's not bluetooth or wifi at large).

In balance, I'm not saying it may not be being caused by other reasons as well (water, time, fault) but just that in my case, I can pretty much confirm its my wallet and contents (and since the rest is leather and paper/plastic, it's got to be the cards!)

Cheers anyways.

[loisk]

WOW

Has anyone else noticed - there have been almost as many Views of this thread
as the total number of spyders sold ! !

[RWM]

It has happened twice on my 2017 RT-S SE6. Both times it was after I washed it. The second time I went to the fuse box and there was Half a spoonful of water sitting on top of the outer box, so I left it open for an hour and then it fired up. Has me worried about riding in the rain away from home or shelter?

Wayne

[HankD]

It has happened twice on my 2017 RT-S SE6. Both times it was after I washed it. The second time I went to the fuse box and there was Half a spoonful of water sitting on top of the outer box, so I left it open for an hour and then it fired up. Has me worried about riding in the rain away from home or shelter?

Wayne

Dangit! When I was switching my fuses to have my 12v power "always on", I noticed the same water in my 2017 RT-S outer fuse box cover. Something else to talk to the dealer about during my 3,000 mile service in a month or so.

[Deanna777]

WOW

Has anyone else noticed - there have been almost as many Views of this thread
as the total number of spyders sold ! !

A double WOW

I did notice the # of Views/reply's on this thread, ( that I started 2 years ago) This thread has a lot of useful/helpful info about the D.E.S.S.

Deanna

[Deanna777]

Bump

Deanna

[HankD]

Dangit! When I was switching my fuses to have my 12v power "always on", I noticed the same water in my 2017 RT-S outer fuse box cover. Something else to talk to the dealer about during my 3,000 mile service in a month or so.

I found out on another thread (from someone much smarter about Spyders than I) that water in the OUTER fuse box covers is normal, as those covers are there to protect the Frunk from getting wet. Water in the inside covers is a problem. So, I am relieved. Just wanted to pass it on for others that might not have seen it and were concerned about water in the outer covers.

[PaladinLV]

It's been well over 10K miles since I had the original module and ignition switch replaced and no error . . . UNTIL YESTERDAY!

I made an important discovery. Your BlueTooth comms unit (in this case a Sena 20S) may and in this specific scenario does affect the system IF in close vicinity of the key.

After riding all day without a problem, was home and testing some "noise" coming from my unit. Was trying to determine if it was being caused by the SM10 (made a modification) or the iPod.
While checking the system I was leaning over the console and turned the key (20S was on) and BANG - DESS ERROR came on.
Of course I was in shock and since I was now no longer interested in my previous problem shut off the 20S, immediately tried to restart the Spyder and all was good!
Being curious, I removed the 20S from helmet turned it on, placed it on the console and turned the key.
BANG - DESS error.

I repeated this several times with the S20 off and on, and every time it was on, I got the error; every time it was off, no error.

So now to be safe, I decided to turn on the 20S - AFTER the Spyder starts.

I might add, there is NO INTERFERENCE, while sitting on the seat NORMALLY, but to be on the safe side decided to use the 20S on after starting just to reduce frustration.

Again, this was with a Sena 20S and a 2014 RT-S, I cannot state if other models of Sena or Spyder will have the same problem OR results.

AJ

[UtahPete]

.... Your BlueTooth comms unit (in this case a Sena 20S) may and in this specific scenario does affect the system IF in close vicinity of the key.

After riding all day without a problem, was home and testing some "noise" coming from my unit. Was trying to determine if it was being caused by the SM10 (made a modification) or the iPod.
While checking the system I was leaning over the console and turned the key (20S was on) and BANG - DESS ERROR came on.
Of course I was in shock and since I was now no longer interested in my previous problem shut off the 20S, immediately tried to restart the Spyder and all was good!
Being curious, I removed the 20S from helmet turned it on, placed it on the console and turned the key.
BANG - DESS error.

I repeated this several times with the S20 off and on, and every time it was on, I got the error; every time it was off, no error.

So now to be safe, I decided to turn on the 20S - AFTER the Spyder starts.

I might add, there is NO INTERFERENCE while sitting on the seat NORMALLY, but to be on the safe side I decided to turn the 20S on after starting just to reduce frustration.

....

My wife and I both have the Sena 20S and each have a 2014 Spyder RTL. So far, we have not experienced anything like this. We haven't yet tried leaning over the key with our helmets on and the 20S on ... is that what you were doing? It just says you were leaning over the console (instrument panel?).

Does anyone know what frequency band the D.E.S.S. uses to communicate with the key? I think we should only expect interference by other nearby electronics if those are operating in the same frequency band. It would be easy enough to compare the DESS frequency with, say, a BT device.

[Deanna777]

It's been well over 10K miles since I had the original module and ignition switch replaced and no error . . . UNTIL YESTERDAY!

I made an important discovery. Your BlueTooth comms unit (in this case a Sena 20S) may and in this specific scenario does affect the system IF in close vicinity of the key.

After riding all day without a problem, was home and testing some "noise" coming from my unit. Was trying to determine if it was being caused by the SM10 (made a modification) or the iPod.
While checking the system I was leaning over the console and turned the key (20S was on) and BANG - DESS ERROR came on.
Of course I was in shock and since I was now no longer interested in my previous problem shut off the 20S, immediately tried to restart the Spyder and all was good!
Being curious, I removed the 20S from helmet turned it on, placed it on the console and turned the key.
BANG - DESS error.

I repeated this several times with the S20 off and on, and every time it was on, I got the error; every time it was off, no error.

So now to be safe, I decided to turn on the 20S - AFTER the Spyder starts.

I might add, there is NO INTERFERENCE, while sitting on the seat NORMALLY, but to be on the safe side decided to use the 20S on after starting just to reduce frustration.

Again, this was with a Sena 20S and a 2014 RT-S, I cannot state if other models of Sena or Spyder will have the same problem OR results.

AJ

I have a Sena 10S bluetooth communicator on my helmet, I have not had the DESS error show up.
I also have a 2014 RTS-SE 6 with 20,800 miles.

Deanna

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Virtually all low power wireless stuff operates in the 2402 to 2480 MHz range generally referred to 2.4 GHz, including Bluetooth. Most likely the DESS operates in that range also. From what I find BT has 38 channels [I saw one mention of 70 channels] in that range and uses a technique called frequency hopping. I suspect what happened in Paladin's test is his Sena BT unit just happened to land on the same frequency as the DESS. I'm guessing, since I'm not a BT expert, that the reason Paladin was able to repeat the error was because once his BT stuff was paired there was no need to switch to a different frequency.

Paladin, if you reset your BT communication units I expect you would not repeat the DESS error because your BT stuff quite likely will have locked onto a different frequency.

Considering the number of channels used by BT and the short duration, maybe even pulsing, of the DESS RF communication, I think it was pure coincidence his BT caused the DESS, and pure coincidence if someone else can repeat it. I put my phone into BT scan mode and it did not cause a DESS error on three tries. Anything that puts out a digital signal similar to the DESS signal in the 2.4 GHz band stands the possibility of interfering with the DESS.

For an informative article about why so much stuff uses the 2.4 GHz range, known as the Industrial, Scientific, and Medical band read this.
https://www.wired.com/2010/09/wireless-explainer/

[rustynail51]

can hooking power supply cords such as heated clothing cords or trailer wiring harness directly to the battery give a d.e.s.s. code when neither is in use. The dealership asked these questions when trying to figure out why i continue to get the code after they replaced the d.e.s.s. module.

[PaladinLV]

Heated clothing should not be turned on until AFTER the engine is running due to the amount of current being drawn from battery.
So the question is would a drain on the battery cause a DESS issue? Don't think so, but I guess anything is possible.

AJ

can hooking power supply cords such as heated clothing cords or trailer wiring harness directly to the battery give a d.e.s.s. code when neither is in use. The dealership asked these questions when trying to figure out why i continue to get the code after they replaced the d.e.s.s. module.

[A1A]

Well I got the DESS check engine on the speedo today 1-27-17. I turned the switch off and on 3 or 4 times and got it to start. I have 18,997 miles on my 2014 RTL-SE6 spyder and this is the first DESS issue for me. I guess I'll keep riding it for a while and see if it happens again.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Well I got the DESS check engine on the speedo today 1-27-17. I turned the switch off and on 3 or 4 times and got it to start. I have 18,997 miles on my 2014 RTL-SE6 spyder and this is the first DESS issue for me. I guess I'll keep riding it for a while and see if it happens again.

The long answer is you need to do a lot of reading on this topic .... the short answer is that it's very likely to occur again and again until it finally stops working completely..... To best of my knowledge there is no fix/cure for the DESS issue .... other than replace it (or have it disconnected)...... This is such a well-known problem (1000's of them have failed) that even if your Spyder has gone out of Warranty, I'd press hard on your dealer to have BRP replace it as a GOODWILL gesture ..... If not, you can purchase the module for About $150 +/- and do it yourself .... it's not difficult .... But you do need to remove the Frunk to get to it .... it's the black box above the Battery on the firewall ..... Good Luck .... Mike

[A1A]

The long answer is you need to do a lot of reading on this topic .... the short answer is that it's very likely to occur again and again until it finally stops working completely..... To best of my knowledge there is no fix/cure for the DESS issue .... other than replace it (or have it disconnected)...... This is such a well-known problem (1000's of them have failed) that even if your Spyder has gone out of Warranty, I'd press hard on your dealer to have BRP replace it as a GOODWILL gesture ..... If not, you can purchase the module for About $150 +/- and do it yourself .... it's not difficult .... But you do need to remove the Frunk to get to it .... it's the black box above the Battery on the firewall ..... Good Luck .... Mike

Mike, thank you for the info my friend. Yes I read about half the DESS Thread and my eyes were starting to turn red and were burning. I just had to stop reading it. I'm still under warranty so the Dealer should address this issue for me. The display I had on the speedo said DESS and below that it showed the engine blinking, but no key image at all.
Cheers

[PaladinLV]

The only for sure way to fix it, is replacement of BOTH the DESS module AND you ignition switch (which will also get you a new key).

Good Luck!
AJ

Mike, thank you for the info my friend. Yes I read about half the DESS Thread and my eyes were starting to turn red and were burning. I just had to stop reading it. I'm still under warranty so the Dealer should address this issue for me. The display I had on the speedo said DESS and below that it showed the engine blinking, but no key image at all.
Cheers

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Mike, thank you for the info my friend. Yes I read about half the DESS Thread and my eyes were starting to turn red and were burning. I just had to stop reading it. I'm still under warranty so the Dealer should address this issue for me. The display I had on the speedo said DESS and below that it showed the engine blinking, but no key image at all.
Cheers

Interesting .... If you didn't get the "ORANGE SCREEN OF DEATH" or the key symbol .... you are in the early stages of DESS failure...... I had this (with complete system shut-down) it was the third time that day ... the first two were just a warning ..... the Orange Screen is the fully failed mode ...... Do not let the dealer BS you that this probably won't happen again...... The DESS module doesn't repair itself .... it needs to be replaced .... you might not be so lucky the next time it fails ...... After mine was replaced (under warranty) in Mo. when I got home, I moved the module (the wiring is long enough) to a different location (bolted it under the right headlight) .... I can now change mine without removing the frunk or any panels .... I just open the hood and voila .... you could suggest to the dealer or Tech to move yours to where I did...... I have had no issues since it was replaced and moved to the new location ............. Mike

[Deanna777]

can hooking power supply cords such as heated clothing cords or trailer wiring harness directly to the battery give a d.e.s.s. code when neither is in use. The dealership asked these questions when trying to figure out why i continue to get the code after they replaced the d.e.s.s. module.

I don't know the answer, someone one on this site should chime in with the answer.

Deanna