Agree or Disagree

[Mo Lee]

I think the automotive industry (motorcycle included) was better off maybe 20 years ago when on board computers only controlled fuel handling and emissions, and not when to accelerate, brake, or steer. With all the recent recalls and problems you would think we would have learned something from Microsoft and Windows, computer systems crash. Just think of how much this technical advancement have added to the cost of a vehicle. Maybe I'm old fashioned but somethings I prefer to control myself. For those of you chose to tell me how crazy or not I am please include if you consider yourself a Gearhead or not.

[Lamonster]

I wouldn't want to do without EFI but I think I could do without all the other stuff.

[SpyderWolf]

I have to agree to a point as well. While certain things are definitely good to have now, like anti-lock brakes and air bags, it is a crying shame that most vehicles cannot be worked on without having to hook them up to a computer. This is probably one of the facts that make it difficult for some of us to find good mechanics at the dealerships as well.

[BillGargan]

I live in NH. With weather of various sorts, I am thrilled with the "nanny" aspects of my Subaru Tribeca AND my Spyder. Safety (despite your perception of the computerized risks) are my motivation.

I was -- I suppose -- a gearhead 30-40 years ago. Not so now. I have any work done by those with the skills and time.

[Firefly]

Originally Posted by Mo Lee

I think the automotive industry (motorcycle included) was better off maybe 20 years ago when on board computers only controlled fuel handling and emissions, and not when to accelerate, brake, or steer. With all the recent recalls and problems you would think we would have learned something from Microsoft and Windows, computer systems crash. Just think of how much this technical advancement have added to the cost of a vehicle. Maybe I'm old fashioned but somethings I prefer to control myself. For those of you chose to tell me how crazy or not I am please include if you consider yourself a Gearhead or not.

In general I have to disagree. Cars are MUCH safer today than in the past - due to technology. I personally think the 'fly-by-wire' will become the industry standard within 20 years and should be less problematic in the long run.

The recent situation with the Toyota gas Peddles is a mechanical problem - not computer related.

I personally think too much is being made of such recalls. Back in the day things on cars broke all the time and the driver just dealt with it --- fixed it or had it fixed and moved on. Today everyone is sue-happy and expects every little thing on a car to operate PERFECTLY. Totally unrealistic thinking.

The 'stuck gas peddle' thing cracks me up --- sure-- get the things fixed--- but how stupid are these drivers that don't know if such a thing happens they can easily put the car in neutral? To me, if a driver is alert - a stuck gas peddle shouldn't be that big of a deal. Machines fail - be prepared on how to handle them when they do fail.

I remember seeing a cops episode a few years ago with some woman going down the highway with a stuck gas peddle. The cops kept trying to tell her to put it into neutral or turn the key off. She was too stupid to make the connection-- and instead crashed.

Similar to the BRP steering problem. If you suddenly have the DPS jerking or locking, this isn't much different than a tire blowing out. Be prepared to handle such problems.. and THINK.

Just my .03 !

[NancysToy]

I wouldn't mind getting rid of the electronics, but going back to leaky Amal carbs and burying them under that bodywork seems like it would cause problems. Seriously, it is the way of the world, and if a fossil like I am can conform, seems like anybody can. Our car, bikes, and other toys are all going this route. I also agree with Bill that the safety features are worth the trade. I may be living in the past, but I don't want to back up 40-50 years, except for occasional fun.

[aubierules]

Originally Posted by Firefly

In general I have to disagree. Cars are MUCH safer today than in the past - due to technology. I personally think the 'fly-by-wire' will become the industry standard within 20 years and should be less problematic in the long run.

The recent situation with the Toyota gas Peddles is a mechanical problem - not computer related.

I personally think too much is being made of such recalls. Back in the day things on cars broke all the time and the driver just dealt with it --- fixed it or had it fixed and moved on. Today everyone is sue-happy and expects every little thing on a car to operate PERFECTLY. Totally unrealistic thinking.

The 'stuck gas peddle' thing cracks me up --- sure-- get the things fixed--- but how stupid are these drivers that don't know if such a thing happens they can easily put the car in neutral? To me, if a driver is alert - a stuck gas peddle shouldn't be that big of a deal. Machines fail - be prepared on how to handle them when they do fail.

I remember seeing a cops episode a few years ago with some woman going down the highway with a stuck gas peddle. The cops kept trying to tell her to put it into neutral or turn the key off. She was too stupid to make the connection-- and instead crashed.

Similar to the BRP steering problem. If you suddenly have the DPS jerking or locking, this isn't much different than a tire blowing out. Be prepared to handle such problems.. and THINK.

Just my .03 !

how can u be sure its not computer related? are we sure toyota knows? look at canam..they dont know yet.. and i dont find the stuck gas pedal funny at all...the families of the dead sure dont

[Amanda B]

I never thought of the possibility of the gas pedal getting stuck...and frankly I wouldn't have known to put the car in neutral...after messing around a bit with the gears or if I was clear headed enough, sure I might have gotten there, but maybe by then it would be too late. So, I do NOT find it funny at all that the pedals stuck and people got hurt, and just because some people know a lot about cars and what to do "if" doesn't mean that the general population does, nor does it mean that those that don't know are "stupid." People died, and they were NOT stupid, if anything they believed they were in a safe vehicle and weren't prepared for the "what if's."

[Roaddog2]

Originally Posted by Lamonster

I wouldn't want to do without EFI but I think I could do without all the other stuff.

Fuel Injection one of the best things that ever came around on bikes
And could deff deal with out all the other stuff

[ataDude]

Originally Posted by Roaddog2

Fuel Injection one of the best things that ever came around on bikes
And could deff deal with out all the other stuff

What's not to like about six (6) carbs?

[Neez]

Been a gearhead most of my life, both my hobbies and my jobs. A large part of the pleasure of motorcycling to me has always been maintenance, repairs and mods. To me, anything that takes my bike out of my garage and into a dealership shop does not add to my enjoyment. Besides I get sick of all that alphabet soup, as in: I can live with EFI and ABS, but BRP can park VCM, BUDS and DPS where the sun dont shine!

[RShrimp]

Fuel Injection and electronic ignition (which was before fuel injection) are both awesome .... and mature technologies. The rest will mature with time.

I for one would like to be able to turn off the nanny when I just want to turn it sideways and shoot a rooster. (no chickens were harmed while shooting the rooster!)

I am going to make this possible. I just need some time (and the right resistors)

[Neez]

[QUOTE=RShrimp;178537]Fuel Injection and electronic ignition (which was before fuel injection) are both awesome .... and mature technologies. The rest will mature with time.

Yeah, well, if DPS doesn't "mature" pretty soon, some young ryders may not get the chance.

[grumpybob]

Took my 2005 dodge with 34,000 miles in because of engine check light. I put scanner on and it gave a code of 0300. electrical problem. fought with two dealers over Federal emissions Warranty. Hours on the phone with Dodge, alot of on-hold. replaced coil packs, replaced spark plugs & wires. Tore engine down and replaced heads. put all together drove 45 miles, light back on. Put in new computer. Drove 60 miles, light back on. Put scanner on & got 090? code. dealer said put new cat. converters on. Ended up being a O2 sensor. Bill over $5,000. Started in 2nd Week of Nov. Bought new Ford first week of Jan. Cost me $34,000. Gave old truck to my son.

Question is - When does a structure become so complex it is not a structure, but a pile of rubble??

I really do not know the answer to the origional question, Do know everybody does not react the same in a stressful situation. Been close to death and did not like it.

[jgwoods]

I like all of the safety and "convenience" systems- DPS, electronic shifter, ABS, and so on. I am bothered very much by the technical arrogance that goes along with them.
Too often an overconfidence in the design and manufacturing disregards the possbility of flaws or failures and doesn't provide proper redundancy or fall back systems, just a limp home mode that barely works if at all.

As for "runaway" Toyotas- drivers are responsible for what their car does no matter what. I think the problem lies with giving drivers licenses to people who barely know how to operate and control their car in perfect circumstances.

[COOLMACHINE]

Not to steal this thread but Come on Firefly... Have a little respect will you? Jeez....
Unfortunately on the radio the other day I heard one of the actual 911 calls from "of all people", a retired police officer telling the dispatcher he, his wife, (and I'm not sure if anyone else was in the car) He was telling dispatch that he was traveling 125 miles per hour and could not stop the car. He was coming up on an intersection and could not stop. That was the last thing he said before dying. I believe 4 people died at that intersection.
Were his brakes already shot from trying to stop? Why didn't he think of putting it in neutral? Would that of worked? I would certainly think so but I wasn't in the car at the time. Things can happen pretty darn quick.
I can tell you it was an absolutely terrible thing to even hear, let alone experience. So sad.

[Spyder1026]

Originally Posted by Firefly

The recent situation with the Toyota gas Peddles is a mechanical problem - not computer related.

From what I read in an online CNN story, the fix included a software update. The software change permits the brake pedal to override the accelerator electronically. The mechanical fix was a shim the size of a postage stamp and the thickness of a nickle. Its purpose is to stiffen the return spring??

There are three European manufacturers who use drive-by-wire, and who are already using the electronic brake pedal override of the accelerator. The technology was there. Toyota just didn't use it.

[NancysToy]

Originally Posted by grumpybob

Took my 2005 dodge with 34,000 miles in because of engine check light. I put scanner on and it gave a code of 0300. electrical problem. fought with two dealers over Federal emissions Warranty. Hours on the phone with Dodge, alot of on-hold. replaced coil packs, replaced spark plugs & wires. Tore engine down and replaced heads. put all together drove 45 miles, light back on. Put in new computer. Drove 60 miles, light back on. Put scanner on & got 090? code. dealer said put new cat. converters on. Ended up being a O2 sensor. Bill over $5,000. Started in 2nd Week of Nov. Bought new Ford first week of Jan. Cost me $34,000. Gave old truck to my son.

So what do you have against your son?

[aubierules]

Originally Posted by COOLMACHINE

Not to steal this thread but Come on Firefly... Have a little respect will you? Jeez....
Unfortunately on the radio the other day I heard one of the actual 911 calls from "of all people", a retired police officer telling the dispatcher he, his wife, (and I'm not sure if anyone else was in the car) He was telling dispatch that he was traveling 125 miles per hour and could not stop the car. He was coming up on an intersection and could not stop. That was the last thing he said before dying. I believe 4 people died at that intersection.
Were his brakes already shot from trying to stop? Why didn't he think of putting it in neutral? Would that of worked? I would certainly think so but I wasn't in the car at the time. Things can happen pretty darn quick.
I can tell you it was an absolutely terrible thing to even hear, let alone experience. So sad.

i heard it too...real sad

[grumpybob]

Originally Posted by NancysToy

So what do you have against your son?

This is the 2nd time he has gotten a truck from me, that I had to fix like new.

He is already talking about how long he has to wait to get my new ford.

[krb1945]

use to say "the more gadgets they add to these machines the more they break and cost"... he was right on both points.

I agree with you... there are too many things on the spyder we don't need or want. I just get tired of big brother trying to control everything I do.

Like many on this site I've served my time in H . I don't need someone in guberment making life more miserable for me.


Also for some of the less experienced drivers watching all the recalls... remember you can turn the "key off" and that should kill the engine.

I'm just an ole fossil dinosaur that likes to have control of my machine.

I neglected to mention above... when you turn the key off you lose power steering and power brakes so you have to muscle them to a safe stop. /ken

[RShrimp]

Originally Posted by krb1945

Also for some of the less experienced drivers watching all the recalls... remember you can turn the "key off" and that should kill the engine.

. /ken

Can you say ..... push to start ................ DOEH! No Key!


But, I remember an experience I had when 16-17 yrs old in a 65 Buick Wildcat with a 430 with 2 4bbls (Lets just say it was a little quicker than a Toyota Corolla)

Started a burnout, broke left motor mount, throttle stuck, (Thought process) If I put it in Neutral the motor blows for sure, (Not in new cars as they all have rev limiters), reach up and turn off the key, a bit wide eyed but no worse for wear. All happened in less than 3 seconds with burn out less than 25 feet longer than expected.

My point,
1. it is not just the new stuff that can cause this type is issue.
2. Gas pedal sticking should not mean certain death, especialy in a 100HP toyota
Steering lockup... That could be different

[WackyDan]

I agree for the most part. The vehicles we are buying new today can go 50,000 miles or far more before their first tune up. Sure, I'm a bit perplexed at where GM hid the PCV valve on my Wife's 05 malibu and how the hell I can even get at the plugs, and the belt if needed... much less a mechanic. Our Malibu steering is fly by wire already. I do like working on my Dakota. That has an engine that was designed back in the 50's/60's and I enjoy tinkering with it when I have to...

One of my old mechanics in my home town said it best... They sure don't make them like they used to, and thank god they don't! That was going for a ride in my 1986 S-10 at about 200k miles and a bad bearing in the tranny making noise. My 1998 Dakota now has 111k and is in far better shape than even that S-10 was.

I guess it comes down to what you want to trade off. Serviceability versus reliability and efficiency.

Originally Posted by Firefly

In general I have to disagree. Cars are MUCH safer today than in the past - due to technology. I personally think the 'fly-by-wire' will become the industry standard within 20 years and should be less problematic in the long run.

The recent situation with the Toyota gas Peddles is a mechanical problem - not computer related.

I personally think too much is being made of such recalls. Back in the day things on cars broke all the time and the driver just dealt with it --- fixed it or had it fixed and moved on. Today everyone is sue-happy and expects every little thing on a car to operate PERFECTLY. Totally unrealistic thinking.

The 'stuck gas peddle' thing cracks me up --- sure-- get the things fixed--- but how stupid are these drivers that don't know if such a thing happens they can easily put the car in neutral? To me, if a driver is alert - a stuck gas peddle shouldn't be that big of a deal. Machines fail - be prepared on how to handle them when they do fail.

I remember seeing a cops episode a few years ago with some woman going down the highway with a stuck gas peddle. The cops kept trying to tell her to put it into neutral or turn the key off. She was too stupid to make the connection-- and instead crashed.

Similar to the BRP steering problem. If you suddenly have the DPS jerking or locking, this isn't much different than a tire blowing out. Be prepared to handle such problems.. and THINK.

Just my .03 !

[Racy2]

Originally Posted by Firefly

In general I have to disagree. Cars are MUCH safer today than in the past - due to technology. I personally think the 'fly-by-wire' will become the industry standard within 20 years and should be less problematic in the long run.

The recent situation with the Toyota gas Peddles is a mechanical problem - not computer related.

I personally think too much is being made of such recalls. Back in the day things on cars broke all the time and the driver just dealt with it --- fixed it or had it fixed and moved on. Today everyone is sue-happy and expects every little thing on a car to operate PERFECTLY. Totally unrealistic thinking.

The 'stuck gas peddle' thing cracks me up --- sure-- get the things fixed--- but how stupid are these drivers that don't know if such a thing happens they can easily put the car in neutral? To me, if a driver is alert - a stuck gas peddle shouldn't be that big of a deal. Machines fail - be prepared on how to handle them when they do fail.

I remember seeing a cops episode a few years ago with some woman going down the highway with a stuck gas peddle. The cops kept trying to tell her to put it into neutral or turn the key off. She was too stupid to make the connection-- and instead crashed.

Similar to the BRP steering problem. If you suddenly have the DPS jerking or locking, this isn't much different than a tire blowing out. Be prepared to handle such problems.. and THINK.

Just my .03 !

Very well said. A lot of the stuff we put on cars does make drivers even stupider becasue they have to do less thinking. ABS,Traction control etc etc

[NancysToy]

Originally Posted by Racy2

Very well said. A lot of the stuff we put on cars does make drivers even stupider becasue they have to do less thinking. ABS,Traction control etc etc

I certainly agree with that. On the other hand, there is a lot of stupid out there anyway, and that stuff probably saves us from it. My vote is to outlaw cruise control. It has led to an epidemic of tailgating and distracted driving on the highway. This isn't the Daytona 500! Oh yeah, and let's ditch power steering, so the idiots can't use their cell phones and park their cars at the same time. (sort of)

[SpyderGirl]

Based on what I have been hearing with Toyota and what is happening to my mother-in-law's Prius I most certainly think that Toyota's problem is beyond mechanical. My mother-in-law told me the other day that on numerous occassions she'd be sitting in her car in PARK and the car would rev and lurch for no reason at all. Also heard about another car witht he cruise control on that just kept on accelerating. Sounds like software to me!!

[SpyderGirl]

Originally Posted by NancysToy

I certainly agree with that. On the other hand, there is a lot of stupid out there anyway, and that stuff probably saves us from it. My vote is to outlaw cruise control. It has led to an epidemic of tailgating and distracted driving on the highway. This isn't the Daytona 500! Oh yeah, and let's ditch power steering, so the idiots can't use their cell phones and park their cars at the same time. (sort of)

Originally Posted by Racy2

Very well said. A lot of the stuff we put on cars does make drivers even stupider becasue they have to do less thinking. ABS,Traction control etc etc

This is all right up there with the cars that park themselves, cars with blind spot indicators, etc, etc. I was driving the other day and some girl in a Jetta was speeding while curling her eyelashes in a residential area! Don't you need your eyes to see while you drive?!?!

[Lamonster]

You Tube

You Tube

[SpyderGirl]

That was a pretty cool vid on the parking assist feature, but I'm sorry, I trust my own eyes before I trust a computer. Besides, if you manage to hit someone while doing this you could just sue the manufacturer and leave the insurance company out of it. Seems like an accident waiting to happen if you ask me. I don't trust those back-up cameras either.

How about those cars that will apply the brakes if it senses you are too close to the car in front of you. What if it just did that randomly and someone slammed into the back of you on the freeway? Or you just assumed you didn't have to pay attention to driving like it seems too many people do nowadays.

I'm sorry, but your car is not your living room, bathroom, office, etc. It's a deadly weapon. if you can't give it your full and undivided attention then don't get behind the wheel.

[Smylinacha]

I'll take the EFI but that's it. Everything else NO COMPUTERS!

Can't tell you how many times my system crashes at work and home and I don't exactly go anywhere online.