Startron & ethanol fuel

[Dan_Ashley]

My brother-in-law worked as a corporate manager for Conoco/Phillips for many years. I had the same questions you did about 1 pipe, many fuels.

Believe me, they have it down to a science.

that makes sense. The only remaining question is: what are the additives supposed to do, and do the actually do those thing in a typical motor.

[OldCowboy]

The basic gasoline is all the same and comes out of the same tank at the refinery. HOWEVER, after the tanker is almost full, there is an additive package that's added. In the case of Top Tier gasoline, this is a better additive package with more detergent. In the case of the unbranded fuel at your local convenience store there is a lower quality additive package. There are big time fines if a station is not selling gas with the designated additive package for that brand.

That's how it was explained to me. I could be wrong.

[OldCowboy]

It is true that 'Dry' E10 blended fuel provides about 3-4% less energy than gasoline. In a perfect world this would translate to a less than 5% fuel mileage difference. The trouble is, ethanol is a water magnet. Typically, ethanol blended fuel will have a moisture content that further degrades energy availability, especially in high humidity climates (or anytime a water source is available). This means it is very possible to experience as much as a 10% difference in actual mileage between E10 and straight gasoline fuels.

Can you give me a reference for this?

[r1100rider]

The basic gasoline is all the same and comes out of the same tank at the refinery. HOWEVER, after the tanker is almost full, there is an additive package that's added. In the case of Top Tier gasoline, this is a better additive package with more detergent. In the case of the unbranded fuel at your local convenience store there is a lower quality additive package. There are big time fines if a station is not selling gas with the designated additive package for that brand.

So I guess that proves that there may be a bennifit from additives like startron

[BajaRon]

that makes sense. The only remaining question is: what are the additives supposed to do, and do the actually do those thing in a typical motor.

Ethanol blended fuel actually tends to leave more deposits than straight gasoline so the additive package is more important with E10. There have been extensive testing on products like Techron which, if you can believe what they say, actually do make a difference over the long run.

Quick fixes will only work if you have a real problem, and even then, it is my feeling that most off the shelf products don't do much if anything at all.

Most products like Startron are designed to keep your fuel system in good condition more than fix existing issues with the fuel system.

[Dan_Ashley]

So I guess that proves that there may be a bennifit from additives like startron

It proves that some additives are added to some brands of gas. But it does nothing to address the effect of those additives in an engine.

As an example think of this, I could add a 1/4 teaspoon of honey to my orange juice every morning and tell everyone that I have natural, health enriched orange juice. If a government agency checks, they will find that I really do have a natural additive in my orange juice. However, there was no proof nor any discussion, other than advertising, that the addition of that tiny amount of honey does any good.

Same with the gas. Just because the companies put something "special" in it does not mean that it will do any good. That is why I am curious about what they put in, the concentration, snd the effect on an internal combustion gasoline engine.

I bet there have been no investigations of this...I hope I am wrong on that.

[sledmaster]

About as year and a half ago I attended a seminar put on by engineers from Yamaha, and one of the subjects was all of the problems caused by ethanol in the gas. They showed us test data from their testing of all the different fuel stabilizer products. This is what I learned.

In the world of fuel stabilizer products, there are various methods or approaches to try to keep petro fuel from gumming up your fuel system, and to keep it fresh so the engine starts after many months of non-service. Two of the most commonly used formulas are known as “alcohol based” and “enzyme based”. While they can keep fuel fresh to a certain degree, they tend to allow a large amount of corrosion to occur to metal components in the fuel system. This is in a large part due to the ethanol now in the fuel.

The really bad guys are the left-over sulfate salts from the manufacturing of ethanol. We’re talking sulfuric acid, and this contaminant is present in ethanol fuels, and is VERY corrosive. It aggressively attacks aluminum, steels, coppers, yellow metals and silver solders – all found in fuel systems. This is the worst problem with ethanol fuel – CORROSION of the soft metals.

Yamaha’s service division has been dealing with the problems caused by the corrosion caused by the sulfuric acid. They examined the various fuel stabilizer products on the market. What they discovered was that while the stabilizer products could keep the fuel fresh, they didn’t do a good enough job as they could do simply due to the cost of the ingredients involved. They tested the available products and found a disturbing level of corrosion occurring to metal components. This is when they decided to design their own products to combat the issues; Fuel Med RX and Engine Med RX. These are proprietary products, and they are expensive, but they work.

Fuel Med RX is primarily a fuel stabilizer with corrosion inhibitors, where Engine Med RX provides advanced de-carboning action along with more corrosion inhibitors. They are compatible and can be used together, but where the Fuel Med RX is designed to keep fuel fresh for periods of storage, Engine Med RX is designed to be used with every fill to keep everything clean – it has the same de-carboning ingredient as Ring Free.

I’ve been using these products and am convinced there is no better fuel stabilizer or internal engine cleaner being offered anywhere at any price. Yes, it will cost more than the “old” technology fuel stabilizers, but it’s all a matter of the ingredients used in the formula – you get what you pay for.

[Bob Denman]

To be somewhat fair...
snowmobile manufacturers have had problems with ethanol for years!
I wonder how much of their science is now specifically geared to "poking holes" in ethanol's balloon...

[sledmaster]

The Yamaha engineer doing the ethanol presentation was a marine guy from Georgia, as the marine industry has probably had more trouble with ethanol than the snowmobiles. It is any and all of the seasonal use products that don't use the fuel in a 30-60 day timeframe. They seemed to be more interested in solving problems and keeping customers happy with units that were performing well, instead of having issues with a 1-2-3 year old product. When marketing guys talk I get suspicious, when engineers talk I listen. What I believe is still debatable...

[BajaRon]

Can you give me a reference for this?

The affinity of ethanol for water/moisture is well documented and that can be found in nearly every article written about it. It is also well documented that available energy is reduced as moisture content increases.

But you bring up a good point. Anyone can say anything on a forum like this and it doesn't necessarily make it true. I have not been able to find the article I am referencing. I did find similar articles that generally refer to these same issues but do not give any specific information.

[Dragonrider]

Fergedaboudit…… www.puregas.com = dealers who sell zero (0) ethanol gas. The only gas I use in my Spyder (whenever possible).

[Bob Denman]

. Anyone can say anything on a forum like this and it doesn't necessarily make it true. .

[BajaRon]

Really!?

[AbNormy]

Bon ton Roulet!

Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk now Free

[Bob Denman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez...s_temps_rouler

[Captain Fin]

Didn't mean to ruffle feathers. Just presenting the opinion of many, not necessarily my own. Most additives, fix-it, seal-it, make it better products that I've tried made no describable difference and some made things worse. But I have used a few 'Snake Oils' that I think did a very good job. Those I continue to use.

Each to his own. Use what you will and reap the benefits or suffer the consequences, whichever applies.

I wonder if snake oil can be extracted from all those pythons we have down here. Maybe Washington can award a grant to the University Of Miami to do research. It could be known as the Snake Oil Grant.

[sledmaster]

We have a fuel pipeline in our town here with storage tanks and loading docks, all of the semi-trucks come here to get gas for most of the gas stations in a 100 mile radius. The fuel is all the same, but on site they store the additive packages for the different stations. The big name brands have their formulas there, but there are other small tanks with less expensive additive packages that the ma-pa stations get. So while the gas is all the same that they all get, it is the additive packages each one specifies that makes the difference. There are all of the different octane fuels, then the ethanol, as we can still get premium non-oxy here in Minnesota. But some stations sell premium with ethanol, so you have to watch the pumps to see what you are getting. Since the EPA tightly regulates what can be sold at the pump, we can still get better additives and add them ourselves.

[Dan_Ashley]

Fergedaboudit…… www.puregas.com = dealers who sell zero (0) ethanol gas. The only gas I use in my Spyder (whenever possible).

Not in California. Here the government knows how to improve everyon's life--so it was outlawed.

[Bob Denman]

You need to move...
At least before the San Andreas fault grants all those folks in Nevada fresh, new oceanfront properties!

[Dan_Ashley]

You need to move...
At least before the San Andreas fault grants all those folks in Nevada fresh, new oceanfront properties!

i really DO need to move. But the weather here is perfect for year-round ryding....that is, except for August...it can get too hot in August. So, I stay. I like to ride.

[BajaRon]

i really DO need to move. But the weather here is perfect for year-round ryding....that is, except for August...it can get too hot in August. So, I stay. I like to ride.

I loved California but I just couldn't take the invasion anymore. I moved and I'm glad I did. Sadly, it will eventually reach us here as well. But I bought some time at least.

[flybuddy]

Read through this thread and I'm seeing that all additives are snake oil BUT all gas has additives. Anyway, just got back from a bike ride and saw this on the road just a block from the house. Now if I could only figure out how to get his oil into the gas.

[whitjim10]

JUST ME BUT I THINK GAS IS GAS

[Dan_Ashley]

JUST ME BUT I THINK GAS IS GAS

i agree...but I have no scientific basis to support that...I also don't have any basis to say otherwise. In other words, I think that it wouldn't be beyond the oil companies to ... Um ... fib.

[nhoj]

.. saw this on the road just a block from the house.

009 (1024x999).jpg IMG_4155_-_Please_brake_for_snakes.jpg