Squealing noise when turning steering

[Marc]

A question for the more experienced. My 2014 RTL when idling and I move the handlebars makes a squealing sound that I could only best describe as a car with a loose fan belt or alternator belt, I know this machines power steering doesn't work via a belt, BUDS show no faults, so am hoping someone can shed some light on where I should start looking,,,

[ransman]

It is the alternator coupling, have you by chance recently changed to a full synthic oil?

[BertRemington]

idling -- foot on the brake; or off the brake?

move -- move an inch forward; move an inch backward; move throughout the steering arc; push the handlebar without moving it?

squeal -- does volume change; does frequency change; does it stop when handlebar turned and then hands removed; does it occur when handlebar turned with engine off?

The DPS is a permanent magnet DC motor with gear (worm?) drive. It is appears to be permanently lubricated although mine has a goober of grease beneath it (this is probably a bad thing). Maybe the drive is dry? You will have to remove the left cover (the one that has two fasteners under the mirror) to see it.

When I was changing front shocks with wheels off the ground, I manually rotated the wheels and could feel pulses as the rotor poles passed by the stator magnets. I could not feel the pulses when I rotated the wheels using the handlebars. There was no sound in either instance.

My two possibilities at the moment: (1) squeals while moving then stops when commanded position reached = drive mechanics; and (2) squeals even when commanded position reached: drive electronics.

The alternator is direct drive too and seems to be permanently lubricated. Maybe getting dry and DPS load makes this noticeable? This is unlikely.

[BertRemington]

ransman -- alternator coupling = alternator flange
Alternator Flange.jpg
I wondered if it was exposed to engine oil. Full synthetic -- subtle very subtle. I assume you mean the effect on old oil seals.

[Marc]

Yes Penrite 100% Synthetic, will that be the cause, the bike has not even done 7000KM yet

[Marc]

Yes Penrite 100% Synthetic, will that be the cause, the bike has not even done 7000KM yet

[ransman]

I know this sounds strange but I have used xps blend for all my oil changes. I decided to try Shell Rotella T6 5w40. Shortly thereafter I started having the chirping noise when I turned the steering while stopped and at slow speeds, before I tore into the alternator, I changed the oil back to the XPS and the noise has gone away. I was surprised by this.
2014 RTL 49K miles.

[Joel The Biker]

My 2014 did that. The battery was getting weak. A new battery and the squeel went away.

[PMK]

Alternator drive coupling. As mentioned, the oil could be a likely reason. Always best to be rolling while turning the handlebars to reduce load on the DPS and alternator.

[Marc]

I know this sounds strange but I have used xps blend for all my oil changes. I decided to try Shell Rotella T6 5w40. Shortly thereafter I started having the chirping noise when I turned the steering while stopped and at slow speeds, before I tore into the alternator, I changed the oil back to the XPS and the noise has gone away. I was surprised by this.
2014 RTL 49K miles.

Have just done a 150km round trip to my dealer and bought a genuine BRP oil change kit for the 1330, Don't know if I'll do the oil change this afternoon or this evening as am sunburnt and worn out from idiots on the road, but will report back asap when I do this change. At worst the top dollar synthetic has done about 200km so my 7000k motor will have had a good flush with Penrite......

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I know this sounds strange but I have used xps blend for all my oil changes. I decided to try Shell Rotella T6 5w40. Shortly thereafter I started having the chirping noise when I turned the steering while stopped and at slow speeds, before I tore into the alternator, I changed the oil back to the XPS and the noise has gone away. I was surprised by this.
2014 RTL 49K miles.

I'm surprised about that Rotella .... I have been using it for the past 4 oil changes and never heard any noise or other issues .... Mike

[spyder01]

I fail to see how the alt or alt drive coupling could be squealing. I think the first thing to do would be to see where the noise is coming from. The DPS is in front of motor and the Alt is behind so I would listen with a stethoscope if possible. Can't wait to hear the solution.

[ransman]

I did listen to the DPS and alternator with a stethoscope and the noise was definitely coming from the alternator. If I have the noise return I will post. I am too surprised that this came about from trying a full synthic oil instead of the blend.

[Marc]

I did listen to the DPS and alternator with a stethoscope and the noise was definitely coming from the alternator. If I have the noise return I will post. I am too surprised that this came about from trying a full synthic oil instead of the blend.

Draining the Penrite full synthetic oil out and replacing with BRP blended, fixed the problem, thanks for everyones input and help...

[PMK]

Draining the Penrite full synthetic oil out and replacing with BRP blended, fixed the problem, thanks for everyones input and help...

I know nothing about Penrite oil. Not even sure if it is sold in the USA. The squealing alternator drive coupling has been going on since they released the 1330 in 2014. Pretty much a case of the oil is too good, and the alternator is heavily loaded when the coupling slips.

Was the Penrite a motorcycle specific oil with applicable MA and MA2 ratings. If not, that may be the root cause. Unfortunately, and not wanting to start an oil debate, I never enjoyed how the clutch and gearbox would behave when using the BRP oil.

Regardless, glad that you got it resolved with minimal effort and expense.

[Mikey]

This whole thing, kind of makes me laugh, BRP has a oil analyzer of sorts in the 1330 motor!!! Put the wrong oil in and boom, you got a squeal!! It tells you what it wants!!!

[BertRemington]

I'm puzzled by several items:

1. BRP service manual shows alternator flange -- no signs of alternator coupling -- will refer to that.
2. The alternator shaft assembly includes needle and ball bearings, a friction washer and two disc springs, all of which are exposed to engine oil. The oiled engine end rides in plain bearings. There doesn't appear to be any torque limiting components (ie the shaft is one piece).
3. The alternator flange has an engine oil-facing ball bearing followed by an oil seal facing the alternator.
4. There is one external isolator in the alternator mounting to the engine.

So what was affected by the change to Penrite? It seems unlikely to me the needle and ball bearings would be affected but perhaps the plain bearings or oil seal would be.

As an aside, after purchasing my used 2014 RT-S SE6 at 77K miles (3rd owner) I first tried BRP partial synthetic 5W-40 (both filters) then several thousand miles later LM/Spectro full synthetic 5W-40 (both filters). Wasn't happy with oil pressures and shifting for either. Then at several members' suggestion tried Motul 7100 15W-50 (both filters). After several thousand miles very pleased with oil pressures and shifting. Highest temperature has been low 80s so will wait until some high 90s days to make more complete report. And the price dropped since I purchased it -- gotta buy more!

[spyder01]

Well this fix is really strange. I’ve been using Rotella for a couple years with no noises and have a 2.5 gl jug which I will use until some weird noise happens to mine.

[PMK]

I'm puzzled by several items:

1. BRP service manual shows alternator flange -- no signs of alternator coupling -- will refer to that.
2. The alternator shaft assembly includes needle and ball bearings, a friction washer and two disc springs, all of which are exposed to engine oil. The oiled engine end rides in plain bearings. There doesn't appear to be any torque limiting components (ie the shaft is one piece).
3. The alternator flange has an engine oil-facing ball bearing followed by an oil seal facing the alternator.
4. There is one external isolator in the alternator mounting to the engine.

So what was affected by the change to Penrite? It seems unlikely to me the needle and ball bearings would be affected but perhaps the plain bearings or oil seal would be.

As an aside, after purchasing my used 2014 RT-S SE6 at 77K miles (3rd owner) I first tried BRP partial synthetic 5W-40 (both filters) then several thousand miles later LM/Spectro full synthetic 5W-40 (both filters). Wasn't happy with oil pressures and shifting for either. Then at several members' suggestion tried Motul 7100 15W-50 (both filters). After several thousand miles very pleased with oil pressures and shifting. Highest temperature has been low 80s so will wait until some high 90s days to make more complete report. And the price dropped since I purchased it -- gotta buy more!

The drive coupling is very simple and effective. The flanged shaft supports the friction washer. The gear has the opposite surface for the friction washer. The two disc springs apply pressure to clamp the friction washer and surfaces. There is a nut to set the breakaway torque.

If the oil is too good, the friction disc can not hold drive force of the drive gear and transfer it to the shaft.
The greater the electrical load on the alternator, the greater the torque required to be transferred through the coupling.

In simple terms, it mimics an old school cars alternator V belt, slipping and squealing when wet.

[BertRemington]

PMK -- your explanation pulled the pieces together for me, including Joel the Biker's solution: new battery. Thanks!

The charging profile of the alternator is 850W @ 2910rpm and 1,250W@1720rpm. So while Marc was turning the handlebars while idling at 900rpm his alternator was close to maximum output and therefore maximum coupling load.

So I'll add a data point: shortly after I purchased the Spyder I replaced the Yuasa battery with a Shorai LFX36L3-BS12 (Joel the Biker also changed to lithium). And some months after I changed to Motul I added a second LFX36L3-BS12 (for S&G plus low price).

I'll continue my tendency of walking to the end of the plank:

1. When changing oils, especially type, be aware of the friction characteristics.
2. Spyder's are battery fussy so keep them fresh.
3. And tighten those star washers!

[EdMat]

I'm puzzled by several items:

This is from the 2019 service manual. Maybe this will help.

2021-12-26_21-26-40.jpg

[PMK]

PMK -- your explanation pulled the pieces together for me, including Joel the Biker's solution: new battery. Thanks!

The charging profile of the alternator is 850W @ 2910rpm and 1,250W@1720rpm. So while Marc was turning the handlebars while idling at 900rpm his alternator was close to maximum output and therefore maximum coupling load.

So I'll add a data point: shortly after I purchased the Spyder I replaced the Yuasa battery with a Shorai LFX36L3-BS12 (Joel the Biker also changed to lithium). And some months after I changed to Motul I added a second LFX36L3-BS12 (for S&G plus low price).

I'll continue my tendency of walking to the end of the plank:

1. When changing oils, especially type, be aware of the friction characteristics.
2. Spyder's are battery fussy so keep them fresh.
3. And tighten those star washers!

Sorry to disappoint.
1) I run Mobil 1 10w40 motorcycle oil that is MA and MA2 rated.
2) I use a Battery Minder, not Battery Tender, whenever the Spyder is parked at home. 24/7/365 essentially.
3) I DO NOT run star washers on the battery terminal to wire harness terminals.

Add to this, almost never do I turn the bars without rolling the Spyder. This lessens wear on the DPS, and steering linkage, PLUS reduces required effort thereby lessening the load on the DPS motor and alternator. Even maintaining throttle control at a fast idle helps generate better electrical output, further lessening loads on the DPS and alternator.

I also found 20 psi in the front tires worked best for us, and that too lessen strain on the previously mentioned items.

What others do and use is absolutely fine by me, even if I may not agree with it.

[PMK]

This is from the 2019 service manual. Maybe this will help.

2021-12-26_21-26-40.jpg

Exactly, setting breakaway torque on the alternator drive coupling.

I am not sure, but suspect that the coupling is designed to slip if the alternator were to fail and lock up. This would save the engine and accessory drive, allowing adequate time to shut the engine down. No true need to have it slip to limit anything at high alternator output.

[EdMat]

While the torque specs can't be set, the test tells if a replacement unit is required.

[BertRemington]

EdMat -- thanks for putting that page of the service manual in context. I had already read mine but without understanding the clutch reference I skipped on by it.

PMK -- I was making general observations, nothing specific to you. But thanks for providing your excellent guidance, especially move-while-turning and 20psi.

PS I use just the one battery-OEM-supplied washer between bolt head and lug.