Front pulley bolt - reuse or replace?

[robtdonna]

2017 F3-T, SE-6 only 6,000 miles, (I am fortunate to have great riding areas minutes of the house). Checked every 6 months for red dust and again just today. NADA ! And I want to keep it that way so am going to be proactive and like some have suggested, remove pulley, clean it, inspect it, if OK reinstall with moly paste and blue loctite on bolt.

HOWEVER, I recall early on some were saying the bolt could be stretching past tolerance and should not be reused. Newer threads aren't mentioning this.

OK experts: reuse or replace?

[PGDoug]

Whats it worth 3 bucks ? I would rather pay 3 bucks than pay the price .

[PMK]

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[robtdonna]

Price isn't the issue, availability is.

[RICZ]

If you get that bolt for $3 would you tell me where? It's over $10 everywhere I have seen it.

[bikerchris1270]

2017 F3-T, SE-6 only 6,000 miles, (I am fortunate to have great riding areas minutes of the house). Checked every 6 months for red dust and again just today. NADA ! And I want to keep it that way so am going to be proactive and like some have suggested, remove pulley, clean it, inspect it, if OK reinstall with moly paste and blue loctite on bolt.

HOWEVER, I recall early on some were saying the bolt could be stretching past tolerance and should not be reused. Newer threads aren't mentioning this.

OK experts: reuse or replace?

Use a newbolt from BRP. Torque is 110 ft lbs. Do Not Reuse Bolt!

[Mikey]

Clean the bolt with a wire brush, reapply Loctite, and torque!

[PMK]

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[bikerchris1270]

This was a topic I recently wrote for Finless Bobs group. Below is a copy and paste of what was written by me.

I read so many posts across the internet about drive pulley failures.

Often there is an abundance of misinformation. Recently, I have been reading that the requirement for replacing the drive pulley retaining bolt is on account of it being a one time use due to bolt stretch when torqued to specs.

In simple terms, that is a myth an simply wrong.

This is a recent reply I wrote and offered up in another group. FWIW, the persons Spyder indicates no red dust at this time.

XXXXXXX (I omitted the persons name I was replying to) for grins, I just measured to verify the size. The pulley retention bolt is 12mm diameter. The grade is 10.9.

The standard torque spec on a M12 - 10.9 is 106lbft of torque (dry torque).

Previously, Can Am specified a torque for the pulley retention bolt of 96lbft.

Currently Can Am specifies an increased torque of 110lbft.

Neither of the Can Am torque specs address additional torque requirements based on the thread locking compounds run down torque requirement.

The difference between the standard torque of 106lbft and the now current torque of 110lbft (rundown torque included) is essentially nil.

Stating all of this to demonstrate the bolt is not replaced on account of stretch, but rather the inability of the used threadlocking compound to properly retain the fastener.

Unfortunately, regarding Spyders, there is a lot of misinformation that once started perpetuates to the level of incorrect but believed as fact, when it is entirely incorrect.

My opinion, remove your pulley before your trip. Inspect, lube and reinstall. Reuse the original bolt, but apply 243 Loctite on clean threads. Correctly torque with a known calibrated or equivalent torque wrench. Then paint a witness mark for visual reference as needed.

When I accomplished pulley removal, cleaning, inspection and reinstallation of our original pulley it was many years ago. At the time Can Am was still recommending to glue the pulley to the shaft with Loctite. Very likely, I was the first to use moly paste, simply replicating what I have done for decades on aircraft applications with drive splines.

I did replace the bolt, since our Spyder used the previous bolt and washer design. I installed the newer bolt with integrated washer.

Knowing my intentions were from that point forward to accomplish these inspections at certain intervals, I planned to reuse the bolt. Therefore, I drilled the bolt head and utilized locwire to safety the bolt in addition to threadlock compound.

All the best, however you proceed.

The shop manual states with a warning to replace bolt, not to reuse bolt! I don’t know where you researched your information, but you are incorrect!

[blacklightning]

I don't know the answer, but my dealership took mine apart after I took it to them with the "red dust of death". They cleaned everything and relubed it with the correct paste and reused the bolt. They did however, order me a new pulley and bolt. It should be in about mid month and they will install both at that time. They told me there would be no issues riding it until they get around to replacing everything.

[robtdonna]

Thanks very detailed and useful info.

[robtdonna]

Even at 10 bucks, IF I can find one, Ill buy it.

[EdMat]

The shop manual states with a warning to replace bolt, not to reuse bolt! I don’t know where you researched your information, but you are incorrect!

Because most folks are too lazy to clean the bolt threads and add fresh loctite. Do you replace head bolts every time you take a head off?

[DerSpyGuy]

The torque spec is 110 ft/lbs - about the same as a lug nut. You replace lug nuts/wheel studs after each use? (Maybe some of you do.) All it does is keep the pulley on the splined shaft; the pulley splines bear the actual torque load. Buy a new one if you want peace of mind. (Replace those wheel studs regularly, too.)

[PMK]

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[Freddy]

The torque spec is 110 ft/lbs - about the same as a lug nut. You replace lug nuts/wheel studs after each use? (Maybe some of you do.) All it does is keep the pulley on the splined shaft; the pulley splines bear the actual torque load. Buy a new one if you want peace of mind. (Replace those wheel studs regularly, too.)

Unfortunately, regarding Spyders, there is a lot of misinformation that once started perpetuates to the level of incorrect but believed as fact, when it is entirely incorrect. said PMK.

The above is one such example. The purpose of the bolt is to provide sufficient clamping force of the pulley to the shoulder of the shaft so that the splines do not transmit the load. This was stated a decade ago in a TSB by BRP when pulley splines first started to wear/strip 'due to inadequate clamping force.' At that time the bolt torque from the factory was 88ftlb iirc.

[Freddy]

Because most folks are too lazy to clean the bolt threads and add fresh loctite. Do you replace head bolts every time you take a head off?

When the manufacturer says to do so, yes. This is somewhat common these days with stretch-to-yield head bolts.

[Snoking1127]

Unfortunately, regarding Spyders, there is a lot of misinformation that once started perpetuates to the level of incorrect but believed as fact, when it is entirely incorrect. said PMK.

The above is one such example. The purpose of the bolt is to provide sufficient clamping force of the pulley to the shoulder of the shaft so that the splines do not transmit the load. This was stated a decade ago in a TSB by BRP when pulley splines first started to wear/strip 'due to inadequate clamping force.' At that time the bolt torque from the factory was 88ftlb iirc.

So you want to wear out the inter 1/8" of the splines????? The real issue is the quality of the splines in the drive pulley. Clamp it with the bolt as tight was you want, at some point the total load will be on the splines themselves. It is like putting lip stick on a pig!

[DerSpyGuy]

Unfortunately, regarding Spyders, there is a lot of misinformation that once started perpetuates to the level of incorrect but believed as fact, when it is entirely incorrect. said PMK.

The above is one such example. The purpose of the bolt is to provide sufficient clamping force of the pulley to the shoulder of the shaft so that the splines do not transmit the load. This was stated a decade ago in a TSB by BRP when pulley splines first started to wear/strip 'due to inadequate clamping force.' At that time the bolt torque from the factory was 88ftlb iirc.

C'mon, get real here. You really believe that nonsense about the bolt providing "sufficient clamping force of the pulley to the shoulder of the shaft so that the splines do not transmit the load." By your logic, splines would be superfluous if the bolt were torqued to, say 160 ft/lbs. That ain't how things work in reality. A splined shaft/pulley design is what handles the load, not the clamping force of a bolt against the pulley.

[Freddy]

It's not my logic DSG, it's that of BRP engineers. As you say: That ain't how things work in reality. That's precisely why we're seeing so many failures in recent years. After BRP increased the bolt torque on the V2 engines in about 2011, failures on these engines were eliminated. Like yourself, most folks on here these days haven't been around the forum long enough to know the history. There's very obviously something very different going on with these triples and BRP is yet to work out what (tho their engineers probably know the fix but the bean counters have put a stop to it I suspect). As long as folks keep on buying them as is, BRP ain't gonna throw $$$ fixing a reliability issue that doesn't impact on sales.

[Freddy]

It is like putting lip stick on a pig! says Snorking. Yeah, the Spyder is an absolute swine of a thing when it's broken down - again.

[PMK]

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[DerSpyGuy]

The torque spec is 110 ft/lbs - about the same as a lug nut. You replace lug nuts/wheel studs after each use? (Maybe some of you do.) All it does is keep the pulley on the splined shaft; the pulley splines bear the actual torque load. Buy a new one if you want peace of mind. (Replace those wheel studs regularly, too.)

Unfortunately, regarding Spyders, there is a lot of misinformation that once started perpetuates to the level of incorrect but believed as fact, when it is entirely incorrect. said PMK.

The above is one such example. The purpose of the bolt is to provide sufficient clamping force of the pulley to the shoulder of the shaft so that the splines do not transmit the load. This was stated a decade ago in a TSB by BRP when pulley splines first started to wear/strip 'due to inadequate clamping force.' At that time the bolt torque from the factory was 88ftlb iirc.

"It's not my logic DSG, it's that of BRP engineers."

That does not fly. Said it, now own it.

" Like yourself, most folks on here these days haven't been around the forum long enough to know the history. "

Having been on the runway for a longer time does not equate to airworthiness. Still grounded, but not in reality.

Lastly, Gaslighting in print doesn't work.

[Freddy]

OFF TOPIC. Thanks for the tips DSG. I'll put em where they belong. You're obviously a very experienced airman - and smarter than the average bear too.

I had to look this up - shows what a dummy I am eh. Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse where a person or group makes someone question their sanity, perception of reality, or memories. I'm not sure how that's relevant, other than it's a projection, but it apparently makes you feel good to say so and that's important to you.

Ride safe.

Let's get back on topic now.