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Originally Posted by Poseidon
I learned From Monster fuel one way to get around the gearing change the nanny won't allow. Something about splicing the sensor cable from the rear tire and tying it in with a front wheel sensor. They were doing this to be able to run the bike on a Dyno. This would tell the ECU all three tires are spinning equal and allow any gearing change. The fuel mapping is identical for the 89 or the 79 tooth sprocket but you would lose traction control and abs for the rear wheel as it is blinded. Only a theory I was told, but it makes sense??
Right now Monster fuel has a Daytona test bike and is working on a complete package turbo kit. Basically taking parts off of other BRP product lines and fitting them to the Can-Am. I was told that their ECU flashes which are netting about 25 ponies aren't really selling as hoped for. This is having a domino effect on funding for the turbo project. Seems Can-Am owners talk the performance talk but don't walk the performance walk even though there are 25 ponies for $350 with the ECU flash.
Just in case people have missed it, here is a video of my test RT going from 0 to 68 mph, laying down about 25' of rubber in under 6 seconds. A Stock RT is only going 50 mph in the same time and distance. My NEW F3L hauls but with the flash but it took an exhaust change to get the results.
https://monsterfuelinjection.com/spyder/
Last edited by Peter Aawen; 08-28-2024 at 02:01 AM.
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I am not spending $350 for only 25 ponies. I think most are fine just the way the Spyder is for now. JMO
Now change the pricing and MAYBE you will get more people to take the Pony plunge .
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Originally Posted by trikermutha
I am not spending $350 for only 25 ponies. I think most are fine just the way the Spyder is for now. JMO
Now change the pricing and MAYBE you will get more people to take the Pony plunge .
$350.00 for 25 HP is a bargain compared to anything else in today's market...I'll be going with this ECM update, and hopefully the 89 T. rear sprocket by spring...
Thank You Dennis for the updated info...
larryd
Last edited by Peter Aawen; 08-28-2024 at 02:02 AM.
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Very Active Member
I have to say, at least from my point of view, my RT has plenty of performance.
I'm more into touring. My farkles include more lights and the sound system.
If my RT accelerated to 60 MPH 3 seconds faster, that means I get to work 3 seconds earlier.
I'm not passing judgement on those that want to hop up their Spyders.
I'm merely adding another point of view that might explain why there are so few performance upgrades available.
Just my opinion, I could be wrong. I'm sure someone on this forum will point out my error.
If it ain't broke, don't break it.
IBA #47122
2020 RT Limited Asphalt Grey
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Originally Posted by trikermutha
I am not spending $350 for only 25 ponies. I think most are fine just the way the Spyder is for now. JMO
Now change the pricing and MAYBE you will get more people to take the Pony plunge .
$14 per horsepower ( if you REALLY can get 25 HP) is a really a good deal. Most other performance mods for the RT cost more and produce no power to speak of. I've hopped up every motor I've ever owned ( even the two snow blowers)
This may be next
Lew L
Kaos----- Gone but not forgotten.
2014 RTS in Circuit Yellow, farkle-ing addiction down to once every few months. ECU FLASH IS GREAT.
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Originally Posted by Dennis in Lodi
I learned From Monster fuel one way to get around the gearing change the nanny won't allow. Something about splicing the sensor cable from the rear tire and tying it in with a front wheel sensor. They were doing this to be able to run the bike on a Dyno. This would tell the ECU all three tires are spinning equal and allow any gearing change. The fuel mapping is identical for the 89 or the 79 tooth sprocket but you would loose traction control and abs for the rear wheel as it is blinded. Only a theory I was told, but it makes sense??
Right now monster fuel has a Daytona test bike and is working on a complete package turbo kit. Basically taking parts off of other BRP product lines and fitting them to the Can-Am. I was told that their ECU flashes which are netting about 25 ponies aren't really selling as hoped for. This is having a domino effect on funding for the turbo project. Seems Can-Am owners talk the performance talk but don't walk the performance walk even though there is 25 ponies for $350 with the ECU flash.
Just in case people have missed it, here is a video of my test RT going from 0 to 68 mph, laying down about 25' of rubber in under 6 seconds. A Stock RT is only going 50 mph in the same time and distance. My NEW F3L hauls but with the flash but it took an exhaust change to get the results.
https://monsterfuelinjection.com/spyder/
So, unless I'm not understanding your post correctly, splicing the sensors to allow a dyno run is just a theory. If that is the case, how do they know the flash is increasing hp and torque? One or the other has to be incorrect. Either they know how and have had it on the dyno, or they don't know how much gains to expect. Maybe their butt dyno is more sensitive than mine.
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Originally Posted by trikermutha
I am not spending $350 for only 25 ponies. I think most are fine just the way the Spyder is for now. JMO
Now change the pricing and MAYBE you will get more people to take the Pony plunge .
I am always looking for more power. And adding 20%+ more horsepower to a $25k+ machine for only $350 is a real bargain (If the gains are true). I come from (and still am) the ford performance family (numerous mustangs, including my roush and my ford lightning), and there are no gains to be had in that way (percentage wise), without going to nitrous. Which, is the one thing that I have never heard anyone mention in the spyder world.
So, has anyone ever installed nitrous to to their spyder? I would really like to read their post
2021 RTL , brake pedal from "Web Boards" chalk white
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Since some of you think its a bargain why not jump on this great deal and performance upgrade then
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Very Active Member
Originally Posted by trikermutha
Since some of you think its a bargain why not jump on this great deal and performance upgrade then
Even a bargain is only a bargain when it has been tried and proven. I am never one to have to (or want to) be the first guy on the block to try something.
That seems to be the norm around here. That is why you have people paying $30k+ for a spyder that I will pick up in 4-5 months from a dealer for $24k or less. I am patient and will wait until something is proven, or a bargain, and then spend my money.
But to each their own.
2021 RTL , brake pedal from "Web Boards" chalk white
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All my life I wanted to be somebody, now I realize I should have been more specific.
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The splice
Originally Posted by Poseidon
So, unless I'm not understanding your post correctly, splicing the sensors to allow a dyno run is just a theory. If that is the case, how do they know the flash is increasing hp and torque? One or the other has to be incorrect. Either they know how and have had it on the dyno, or they don't know how much gains to expect. Maybe their butt dyno is more sensitive than mine.
This past summer, I took my flashed RT to Canada for the purpose to get a Dyno test, figure out the speed restrictions and solve the gearing change. In my short time there I was 0 for 3 in those goals as I was on a vacation and didn't want my only ride tied up. We learned a current F3S or Daytona is needed for the project going forward to conduct reliable Dyno testing.
In follow up conversation with Monster Fuel is where the splice comment came up. Blinding the rear wheel works with the splice for a gearing change but the rear wheel is no longer part of the ABS. So to me that does not seem like a solution??
JCThorne posted his flash test results and he showed a 20 hp gain on his F3S. I can't find that post??
To be honest, my 2016 totally stock F3L WITH the 89 tooth sprocket did not show ANY net gain in my time and distance testing and only modest gains when I tested exhaust combinations. This is being mirrored in comments from F3S owners. The flash was designed around the 79 tooth gearing and the 89 tooth is not befitting from the flash as much as the RT OBVIOUSLY DOES. 25' of rubber and 0 to 68 mph is proven on the video.
In follow up conversations about this issue with Monster Fuel they, implied the 89 tooth gearing is being addressed with a different flash option.
I AGREE WITH YOU, since they have a full time Daytona test bike, a Dyno shop less than an hour away, it's time to poop or get off the potty.
Dennis
Last edited by Peter Aawen; 08-28-2024 at 02:03 AM.
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Originally Posted by Dennis in Lodi
To be honest, my 2016 totally stock F3L WITH the 89 tooth sprocket did not show ANY net gain in my time and distance testing and only modest gains when I tested exhaust combinations. This is being mirrored in comments from F3S owners. The flash was designed around the 79 tooth gearing and the 89 tooth is not befitting from the flash as much as the RT OBVIOUSLY DOES. 25' of rubber and 0 to 68 mph is proven on the video.
In follow up conversations about this issue with Monster Fuel they, implied the 89 tooth gearing is being addressed with a different flash option.
And up until this post I was the only one voicing this result and everyone thought I was crazy! What is this flash option you speak of? The last time I spoke to Steve he made no mention of it!
'15 F3-S Pure Magnesium Metallic - Mad Max Edition
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2015 F3-S , Pure Magnesium Metallic/Steel Black Metallic
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Originally Posted by Lew L
$14 per horsepower ( if you REALLY can get 25 HP) is a really a good deal. Most other performance mods for the RT cost more and produce no power to speak of. I've hopped up every motor I've ever owned ( even the two snow blowers)
This may be next
Lew L
You must have a sick mind---I would know because I have the same problem---I even have the cheap tach on my riding lawn mower--I increased the maximum RPM. Has anyone seen my cutting blade that flew off?? It went South.
Darrell
2015 F3's , two 12 volt power outlets Orange & Black
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Originally Posted by Wildrice
You must have a sick mind---I would know because I have the same problem---I even have the cheap tach on my riding lawn mower--I increased the maximum RPM. Has anyone seen my cutting blade that flew off?? It went South .
Darrell
I resemble that. Both snowblowers resemble much larger units ( in snow throwing capability ) A slight governor mod and rubber flaps added to the thrower made a HUGE difference.
Now to the , haven't modded the motor yet but that is the question of this thread....................
Lew L
Kaos----- Gone but not forgotten.
2014 RTS in Circuit Yellow, farkle-ing addiction down to once every few months. ECU FLASH IS GREAT.
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Last edited by Peter Aawen; 08-28-2024 at 02:04 AM.
2015 F3's , two 12 volt power outlets Orange & Black
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Originally Posted by SpyderAnn01
Poseidon, most Spyder owners are too old to want more power.
Speak for yourself
I' m almost 71
I always want more power
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Very Active Member
Originally Posted by Poseidon
So, unless I'm not understanding your post correctly, splicing the sensors to allow a dyno run is just a theory. If that is the case, how do they know the flash is increasing hp and torque? One or the other has to be incorrect. Either they know how and have had it on the dyno, or they don't know how much gains to expect. Maybe their butt dyno is more sensitive than mine.
Sean,
I've hear a just a few mods, not sure about the 1300's though. You can obviously change the air intake, exhaust, cat delete. In the earlier days some even played around with a juice box and PCV, not sure if it was an auto tune. But, whenever someone tried to find out the "actual" gains I never have read here that someone was able to Dyno to verify this Hp/Tq gains. So even with the ECU flash, which seems to be the current wave for increasing "hp/tq" until there is an actual way to Dyno, we wont know what the actual "performance" gains are.
Which brings up a question I have. If the Spyder currently cant be Dynoed, then how is BRP making the claim of 100+HP? Wonder if they are just using their good "ole" math to calculate? Similar to the same guy that says the tank can hold 5+ gallons of gas. I would by the guy a round trip plane ticket to prove it can be done on our Spyder.
2007 M109R LE - To many MODS to list. Its cheaper that way!!!
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Originally Posted by M109Dreamer
Which brings up a question I have. If the Spyder currently cant be Dynoed, then how is BRP making the claim of 100+HP? Wonder if they are just using their good "ole" math to calculate? Similar to the same guy that says the tank can hold 5+ gallons of gas. I would by the guy a round trip plane ticket to prove it can be done on our Spyder.
I would think that they come up with their claimed hp by possibly doing an engine dyno test. No one (car, truck, bike, or trike) really gives an accurate rwhp number. I would think that you should be able to possibly strap a spyder down on a car dyno. I am probably wrong about this, but I do know that most motorcycle dynos that I have seen were too small to put a trike on.
2021 RTL , brake pedal from "Web Boards" chalk white
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Originally Posted by blacklightning
I would think that they come up with their claimed hp by possibly doing an engine dyno test. No one (car, truck, bike, or trike) really gives an accurate rwhp number. I would think that you should be able to possibly strap a spyder down on a car dyno. I am probably wrong about this, but I do know that most motorcycle dynos that I have seen were too small to put a trike on.
I actually think it would be fairly easy. Locate the 3-wheel sensor wires going into the ECM; label & cut the 3 wires - install a 3 wire into 1 wire pigtail jumpers with push on connectors for easy return to normal after the test. Connect the rear sensor input & both of the floating front wheel input sensor wires & connect the output lead of the 3 to 1 input to the rear senor input on the ECM. Now the front wheels could be stationary - lifted up same height as rear on makeshift ramp or jack stands. That's the whole process. Reconnect cut wires with push on terminals back to original location after the dyno is finished. I'll find & prep the ECM wires & run a dyno this Spring-Summer.
Darrell
Last edited by Peter Aawen; 08-28-2024 at 02:05 AM.
2015 F3's , two 12 volt power outlets Orange & Black
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Originally Posted by blacklightning
I would think that they come up with their claimed hp by possibly doing an engine dyno test. No one (car, truck, bike, or trike) really gives an accurate rwhp number. I would think that you should be able to possibly strap a spyder down on a car dyno. I am probably wrong about this, but I do know that most motorcycle dynos that I have seen were too small to put a trike on.
If they did use the Dyno to get their numbers then there must be a way, might check with BRP and see if they will share how they were able to Dyno them. Be curious, wonder if its something they can deactivate with their software?
2007 M109R LE - To many MODS to list. Its cheaper that way!!!
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Originally Posted by M109Dreamer
If they did use the Dyno to get their numbers then there must be a way, might check with BRP and see if they will share how they were able to Dyno them. Be curious, wonder if its something they can deactivate with their software?
Must be in a different thread but IIRC JCThorne said there is a provision in BUDS to deactivate the wheel sensors. So being able to Dyno a Spyder would be pretty easy if you the BUDS software.
2014 Copper RTS
Tri-Axis bars, CB, BajaRon sway bar & shock adjusters, SpyderPop's Bumpskid, NBV peg brackets, LED headlights and modulator, Wolo trumpet air horns, trailer hitch, custom trailer harness, high mount turn signals, Custom Dynamics brake light, LED turn signal lights on mirrors, LED strip light for a dash light, garage door opener, LED lights in frunk, trunk, and saddlebags, RAM mounts and cradles for tablet (for GPS) and phone (for music), and Smooth Spyder belt tensioner.
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Originally Posted by Wildrice
I actually think it would be fairly easy. Locate the 3 wheel sensor wires going into the ECM label & cut the 3 wires---install a 3 wire into 1 wire pigtail jumpers with push on connectors for easy return to normal after the test.. Connect the rear sensor input & both of the floating front wheel input sensor wires & connect the output lead of the 3 to 1 input to the rear senor input on the ECM. Now the front wheels could be stationary--lifted up same height as rear on makeshift ramp or jack stands. That's the whole process. Reconnect cut wires with push on terminals back to original location after the dyno is finished. I'll find & prep the ECM wires & run a dyno this Spring-Summer.
Darrell
The wheel speed sensors send a digital frequency signal to the VSS system. If you cut those wires, I think you'll be hatin' life. Messing with the digital Canbus system is very expensive.
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Originally Posted by Jetfixer
The wheel speed sensors send a digital frequency signal to the VSS system. If you cut those wires, I think you'll be hatin' life. Messing with the digital Canbus system is very expensive.
For clarification. I agree with the digital signal bit to VSS. However, it is not part of the CANbus. CANbus is the network for communicating among the various processors on the bike, i.e., VSS to TCM to ECM to cluster, and so on. It is not for the input signals to those processors.
2014 Copper RTS
Tri-Axis bars, CB, BajaRon sway bar & shock adjusters, SpyderPop's Bumpskid, NBV peg brackets, LED headlights and modulator, Wolo trumpet air horns, trailer hitch, custom trailer harness, high mount turn signals, Custom Dynamics brake light, LED turn signal lights on mirrors, LED strip light for a dash light, garage door opener, LED lights in frunk, trunk, and saddlebags, RAM mounts and cradles for tablet (for GPS) and phone (for music), and Smooth Spyder belt tensioner.
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Originally Posted by Jetfixer
The wheel speed sensors send a digital frequency signal to the VSS system. If you cut those wires, I think you'll be hatin' life. Messing with the digital Canbus system is very expensive.
If the front wheel rotor has the same diameter as the rear---cutting & inputting all 3 speed sensors to the ECM would produce the same effect as riding in a straight line. Digital frequency is nothing more than pulses & all 3 wheels use them. Unless the ratio from the front is different than that from the rear---how else could it produce a problem?? Just my opinion from spending 20 yrs as an I/O & Mainframe National/International Tech Support Specialist. I just about lived on an airplane for 7 yrs repairing systems in 40+ States & England, France, Germany, & Mexico City. Technology units have really shrank in size but most of the concepts are fairly similar on the output side. I don't miss riding the NYC subway at 2AM-3AM with the weirdo's. When time, weather, & family health issues clear up I will locate the speed sensor wires entering the ECU--cut & splice & go for a ride & let you know the results of my theory. Currently it is 25 degrees in Westerville OH Worse case if the front wheel sensors attach to more than the ECU I will remove the front wheel sensors & splice all 3 sensor wires together at the ECU in lieu of just letting the front wheel sensor wires as an open floating. The ECM maybe sending different signal.wires to the Trans & VSS.
Darrell
Last edited by Wildrice; 11-23-2017 at 08:22 AM.
2015 F3's , two 12 volt power outlets Orange & Black
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Originally Posted by Wildrice
If the front wheel rotor has the same diameter as the rear---cutting & inputting all 3 speed sensors to the ECM would produce the same effect as riding in a straight line. Digital frequency is nothing more than pulses & all 3 wheels use them. Unless the ratio from the front is different than that from the rear---how else could it produce a problem?? Just my opinion from spending 20 yrs as an I/O & Mainframe National/International Tech Support Specialist. I just about lived on an airplane for 7 yrs repairing systems in 40+ States & England, France, Germany, & Mexico City. Technology units have really shrank in size but most of the concepts are fairly similar on the output side. I don't miss riding the NYC subway at 2AM-3AM with the weirdo's. When time, weather, & family health issues clear up I will locate the speed sensor wires entering the ECU--cut & splice & go for a ride & let you know the results of my theory. Currently it is 25 degrees in Westerville OH Worse case if the front wheel sensors attach to more than the ECU I will remove the front wheel sensors & splice all 3 sensor wires together at the ECU in lieu of just letting the front wheel sensor wires as an open floating. The ECM maybe sending different signal.wires to the Trans & VSS.
Darrell
Had read on other forums that this was one way to disable anti-slip on older machines that did not have provisions to disable traction control.... (After the mod, traction control reporting 0 slip, all input reading off the front wheel.) But even without mod (me simply disabling t/c on my SE machine) there's not really enough power during warm weather (with sticky tires) to reliably get the tire loose/counter-steer. (So close, but not quite there. And I have no interest/won't hold the brake to build power from a stop, although that might work.)
I hope someone comes up with a good flash for my machine that makes a difference. I'd be happy with 10 - 15% increase. That would make all the difference with traction control disabled. As it is now, 2/3 of the time I accelerate from a stop (even turning onto the road) with traction disabled in warm weather: Instead of the expected slip & counter-steer, all I'm left with is my inside front tire 6 inches off the ground. Definitely not the desired results!
Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
Last edited by TRLBLZR1; 11-24-2017 at 08:19 PM.
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