Aggressive riding in the curves question

[Zip]

Nanny tapped my brakes twice on really tight turns

[BajaRon]

I have 2013 RTS SE5 and while I understand the need for the "parental" controls, to me the cutting of the engine is pretty frustrating. I am wondering if you have a manual transmission with a clutch to feather, can you actually minimize the effects? I am not talking about trying to fly through a corner too fast, only about coming out of a curve or a turn harder. My semi-automatic experiences a fair amount of lag.

Bob is right. Having a manual clutch doesn't help. There is no 'Get Out of Jail Free' card with the Nanny in any configuration. Upgrading the suspension will quiet the Nanny quite a bit though. More control to the driver means less need for the Nanny to intervene.

[Bob Denman]

upgrade your suspension, and learn to be s m o o t h e through the corners.

[blacklightning]

upgrade your suspension, and learn to be s m o o t h e through the corners.

Better suspension may make a good driver better, but it is not a cure all for non riders.

[asp125]

A smooth rider can carry more corner speed than one who's rough without invoking Nanny (or as I call it, the "act your age" feature). I've gone through curves at sport bike speeds usually without drama. I lifted the inside front wheel about 6" off the pavement once, and Nanny slapped me hard; "act your age!".

And you don't have to be a speed demon either. Going into a corner that unexpectedly tightens up, or having to swerve to avoid a dog, normal driving situations can invoke Nanny especially if you're ham handed.

But trusting technology to save your from true idiocy is a fallacy, because no matter how good, you can't argue with physics.

[BajaRon]

upgrade your suspension, and learn to be s m o o t h e through the corners.

Absolutely! Hard parts can improve how the Spyder handles. But the rider is still the most important component of all. Upgrades cannot fully compensate for bad driving habits. Nor should any on board computer be expected to bail you out of every situation. Take control of your ride and ride it correctly. Everything will go much better if you do. Whether you ever add a suspension upgrade or not.

Regardless of how you ride, you should lean and practice proper approach angle, braking, leaning, steering, apex and acceleration out of a curve. Even if you do not need this skill most of the time. It never hurts to ride like you should. Then, if something unexpected happens. You will be much better positioned and prepared to deal with it.

[Peter Aawen]

Nanny tapped my brakes twice on really tight turns

You could take that as a warning from the Nanny to slow down, & that will certainly minimise the incidence of Nanny intervention like that, but she's responding to a whole range of input from a heap of sensors that are telling her a helluva lot about the ongoing dynamics of your Spyder & its cornering that are ganging up RIGHT NOW to tell her you aren't doing enough other stuff at that speed to make it around that corner with sufficient leeway for safety if anything changes!!

So if the Nanny is doing that, speed is just one thing that she's checking, so like Ron says above, practice good ryding skills all the time & see what else you can change to improve things in your favour?!? How about if you check how much steering you've got dialed in; are you pushing into the realms of over-steer?? Fitting better tires than the Kendas (not bloody hard to do at all!) tires with stiffer sidewalls & less tire squirm will take more speed & 'less than ideal' loading to get that much squirm; while fitting a stiffer anti-sway bar (like BajaRon's) will keep the Spyder more level & avoid quite so much tire squirm quite so early. Similarly, getting more of your weight across the Spyder so it's down & inside the Spyder's CoG will minimise that too; as will less 'push' on the outside handlebar & more 'pull' on the inside bar, all helping to get your weight inside & down on any turn, as well as ensuring that your muscles 'interaction' with the Spyder & its suspension is lower & inside with relation to the Spyder's Roll Centre on that corner. And there's a heap more to consider & maybe change or improve once you really start looking critically at what's going on & being reported to the Nanny!

But without going into it all in too much more detail, if you want to ryde harder, dropping your SPEED is not the only way to minimise Nanny intervention. As others have said, learn to be as smooth as you can in all your ryding & control inputs; fit proper tires instead of the crappy Kendas (IMO, doing that alone will likely make almost as big an improvement as fitting Ron's Bar, which can make a substantial improvement!); fit that better anti-sway bar; learn to get & keep your weight across to the inside of any corner & down as low as you can as soon as you can; use the minimum amount of steering input necessary to make a given turn (cos just one degree too much can trigger Nanny intervention!) & learn the Nanny's limits for how much steering &/or throttle input she'll accept at whatever speed for whatever turn; if you feel you need more steering input on any given turn, try pulling harder on the inside bar (& NOT pushing away on the outside bar, the 'equal & opposite force' thing makes that transfer of weight & force happen in entirely the wrong place & direction & that upsets the Nanny PDQ!) and practice getting more of your weight across to the inside of the corner & down! Try the trailing brake thing, not actually slowing but applying just enough to let the Nanny know you are there & on it already if things go wrong; try smoothly feeding in throttle input on the way out, but learn how & when it's safe to do that without making Nanny sit up & complain! Work out what you can do using OTHER control inputs, your body weight, & anything else you have any degree of control over - if you want to ride your Spyder hard it becomes a 'whole of body' experience to get the absolute best out of your Spyder!! And while the 'real' skilled two wheel riders on well prepared bikes don't have anything much to worry about, the local 'wannabees' in my part of the world now know that without any doubts, even just 'good' practices from an old fart like me on a Spyder with 2 front wheels steering & braking plus the Nanny keeping an eye on things is far & away better than their absobloodylute best they can put up on anything with only two wheels!!

But if you don't want to do all that, your Spyder can still be the greatest provider of 'Miles of Smiles' without you having to work too hard at it at all. You get out of it what you are prepared to put in - you want to go faster & harder, then you need to work a bit harder at it; but if you don't want to do all that, you can still have a great ryde without getting that heavily involved!

[TRLBLZR1]

You could take that as a warning from the Nanny to slow down, & that will certainly minimise the incidence of Nanny intervention like that, but she's responding to a whole range of input from a heap of sensors that are telling her a helluva lot about the ongoing dynamics of your Spyder & its cornering that are ganging up RIGHT NOW to tell her you aren't doing enough other stuff at that speed to make it around that corner with sufficient leeway for safety if anything changes!!

So if the Nanny is doing that, speed is just one thing that she's checking, so like Ron says above, practice good ryding skills all the time & see what else you can change to improve things in your favour?!? How about if you check how much steering you've got dialed in; are you pushing into the realms of over-steer?? Fitting better tires than the Kendas (not bloody hard to do at all!) tires with stiffer sidewalls & less tire squirm will take more speed & 'less than ideal' loading to get that much squirm; while fitting a stiffer anti-sway bar (like BajaRon's) will keep the Spyder more level & avoid quite so much tire squirm quite so early. Similarly, getting more of your weight across the Spyder so it's down & inside the Spyder's CoG will minimise that too; as will less 'push' on the outside handlebar & more 'pull' on the inside bar, all helping to get your weight inside & down on any turn, as well as ensuring that your muscles 'interaction' with the Spyder & its suspension is lower & inside with relation to the Spyder's Roll Centre on that corner. And there's a heap more to consider & maybe change or improve once you really start looking critically at what's going on & being reported to the Nanny!

But without going into it all in too much more detail, if you want to ryde harder, dropping your SPEED is not the only way to minimise Nanny intervention. As others have said, learn to be as smooth as you can in all your ryding & control inputs; fit proper tires instead of the crappy Kendas (IMO, doing that alone will likely make almost as big an improvement as fitting Ron's Bar, which can make a substantial improvement!); fit that better anti-sway bar; learn to get & keep your weight across to the inside of any corner & down as low as you can as soon as you can; use the minimum amount of steering input necessary to make a given turn (cos just one degree too much can trigger Nanny intervention!) & learn the Nanny's limits for how much steering &/or throttle input she'll accept at whatever speed for whatever turn; if you feel you need more steering input on any given turn, try pulling harder on the inside bar (& NOT pushing away on the outside bar, the 'equal & opposite force' thing makes that transfer of weight & force happen in entirely the wrong place & direction & that upsets the Nanny PDQ!) and practice getting more of your weight across to the inside of the corner & down! Try the trailing brake thing, not actually slowing but applying just enough to let the Nanny know you are there & on it already if things go wrong; try smoothly feeding in throttle input on the way out, but learn how & when it's safe to do that without making Nanny sit up & complain! Work out what you can do using OTHER control inputs, your body weight, & anything else you have any degree of control over - if you want to ride your Spyder hard it becomes a 'whole of body' experience to get the absolute best out of your Spyder!! And while the 'real' skilled two wheel riders on well prepared bikes don't have anything much to worry about, the local 'wannabees' in my part of the world now know that without any doubts, even just 'good' practices from an old fart like me on a Spyder with 2 front wheels steering & braking plus the Nanny keeping an eye on things is far & away better than their absobloodylute best they can put up on anything with only two wheels!!

But if you don't want to do all that, your Spyder can still be the greatest provider of 'Miles of Smiles' without you having to work too hard at it at all. You get out of it what you are prepared to put in - you want to go faster & harder, then you need to work a bit harder at it; but if you don't want to do all that, you can still have a great ryde without getting that heavily involved!

Very well said. This is how I describe controlled aggressive riding on my F3-S in one sentence: "I ride my F3-S (se) like a high performance snowmobile on well groomed trail, with smooth throttle control!" IMPORTANT: I don't try/expect to to stay with good (or foolish?) 2-wheel sport bike riders in high speed "S" curves. (Machine can't/won't do it so be safe and don't even try.) On the other hand: On "sub 60 mph. roads/speeds", I've found I can drive this Spyder both quicker & safer than I could ever have driven my sport bikes. (Also more relaxed with less "concentration & no stress.") FWIW: I've yet to experience "nanny" while driving like this, so the ECU must sense I'm "doing it right." (Very impressive "artificial intelligence" on the new F3 S I might add!)

Note: Been riding snowmobiles and motorcycles for about 40 years. (only a few weeks on Spyder)

[Road-Kill]

We both stress at work. For us going on a Spyder ride is time for relaxation, not wondering if this is the time the nanny doesn't work. We have ridden many roads that weve been on before, and it always amazes us of the sights that we missed in our cage. For us it's about living in our environment not seeing how fast we can get through it. Just my two cents.

I could not agree more! Going and returning on a recent long trip my buddy complained I was going the speed limit. I told him its about the scenery or the ride and not the destination. If I'm in a hurry why take the bike? I could just jump into my car and "get there". Going fast through the curves is ok from time to time but for me I just like to kick back and watch.....

[Road-Kill]

Absolutely! Hard parts can improve how the Spyder handles. But the rider is still the most important component of all. Upgrades cannot fully compensate for bad driving habits. Nor should any on board computer be expected to bail you out of every situation. Take control of your ride and ride it correctly. Everything will go much better if you do. Whether you ever add a suspension upgrade or not.

Regardless of how you ride, you should lean and practice proper approach angle, braking, leaning, steering, apex and acceleration out of a curve. Even if you do not need this skill most of the time. It never hurts to ride like you should. Then, if something unexpected happens. You will be much better positioned and prepared to deal with it.

I admit I was a skeptic but the BajaRon sway bar and metal links improved my ride quality by a large margin.

[quasi]

Only thing on that bike that is going to protect you is YOU!

[WackyDan]

When you can't stay in the right lane on the curve - crossing into the on-coming lane. Unless you have a Daytona Spyder, Nanny will put you down onto the road before you can turn over. For many of us, the game is to see how fast you can take a curve before Nanny kick in. So you won't know where that point is until it actually happens.

I love to challenge Nanny. I haven't found her yet on my F3T.

Nothing about the Daytona is any different than the other Spyders. The Daytona isn't the only 2017 F3 with Sport mode. My F3-S has it. Sport mode does not turn the nanny completely off.

[Bob Denman]

We both stress at work. For us going on a Spyder ride is time for relaxation, not wondering if this is the time the nanny doesn't work. We have ridden many roads that weve been on before, and it always amazes us of the sights that we missed in our cage. For us it's about living in our environment not seeing how fast we can get through it. Just my two cents.

Hell Yeah.jpg

[TRLBLZR1]

Since "the nanny" has become an integral part of this discussion, I have a question regarding it's behavior:

On my F3-S D500 (SE model) I've never experienced nanny (while driving), nor have I ever disabled traction control. No need to IMO, because it must already be set rather "aggressive" on this machine/model, however:

Just realized yesterday that when I take corners and am riding fairly aggressively (at sub 50 mph speeds), I am frequently seeing the yellow traction control flashing. (Very seldom do I watch gauges, but I just happened to notice it once the other day. Looking for this I now realize it's fairly common for it to flash when I'm cornering aggressively/leaning into the corner like this. (Never cuts power or anything, just flashes.) I'm wondering whether this is the difference between the newer models and the older ones that didn't allow you to accelerate coming out of the apex.... (Nanny is more "permissive" in newer machines, but the warning still flashes?) ~ If wrong, could someone explain this?

[Peteoz]

I admit I was a skeptic but the BajaRon sway bar and metal links improved my ride quality by a large margin.

I don't think the metal Helm links actually improve your ride quality, Road-Kill. They are just a higher strength item than the stock BRP plastic links that can break. I am currently running one of each until I get the time to replace a faulty metal link. All works well and is OK by Ron.

Pete

[Peter Aawen]

.....
Just realized yesterday that when I take corners and am riding fairly aggressively (at sub 50 mph speeds), I am frequently seeing the yellow traction control flashing. (Very seldom do I watch gauges, but I just happened to notice it once the other day. Looking for this I now realize it's fairly common for it to flash when I'm cornering aggressively/leaning into the corner like this. (Never cuts power or anything, just flashes.) I'm wondering whether this is the difference between the newer models and the older ones that didn't allow you to accelerate coming out of the apex.... (Nanny is more "permissive" in newer machines, but the warning still flashes?) ~ If wrong, could someone explain this?

That yellow light flashing means the Nanny IS intervening in some way!!

It could be that she's just limited the spark rate or injection to keep power down a little, or that she's applied any one (or more) of the brakes to ensure that your Spyder can make the corner you've just asked it to thru the steering input you've got dialed in; the speed you are travelling at; what your speed, control input, & the road is doing to/telling all the sensors, & how much lean you personally have put in to keep everything stable; or she could be making any one or more of a whole raft of other little tweaks thru things like the ABS, EBD, DPS, VSS, etc.... all stuff that you may not have noticed the how or realise why she is doing what she's doing, but she definitely IS intervening & keeping things within the parameters she has been told are acceptable!

I suspect that very many of those who claim or think that their Nanny hasn't ever intervened simply haven't realised when she HAS!! It's just that she hasn't had to intervene in a heavy handed or clearly noticeable way, and she can be extremely delicate & discrete!! She is actually quite gentle in most of her applications, but you'd hafta ride your Spyder slower & gentler than a loaded hearse for her not to have ever intervened in some way & I really don't believe that too many actually ride like that - altho I will allow that you hafta push her limits & boundaries pretty damn hard for her to intervene in a manner that is noticeable to some! Still, whatever you do, however you ryde, she is always there & she is always watching - and she intervenes waaayyy more than many might think; they just haven't noticed her gentle touch keeping them safe & their Spyder under control!

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

That yellow light flashing means the Nanny IS intervening in some way!!

It could be that she's just limited the spark rate or injection to keep power down a little, or that she's applied any one (or more) of the brakes to ensure that your Spyder can make the corner you've just asked it to thru the steering input you've got dialed in; the speed you are travelling at; what your speed, control input, & the road is doing to/telling all the sensors, & how much lean you personally have put in to keep everything stable; or she could be making any one or more of a whole raft of other little tweaks thru things like the ABS, EBD, DPS, VSS, etc.... all stuff that you may not have noticed the how or realise why she is doing what she's doing, but she definitely IS intervening & keeping things within the parameters she has been told are acceptable!

I suspect that very many of those who claim or think that their Nanny hasn't ever intervened simply haven't realised when she HAS!! It's just that she hasn't had to intervene in a heavy handed or clearly noticeable way, and she can be extremely delicate & discrete!! She is actually quite gentle in most of her applications, but you'd hafta ride your Spyder slower & gentler than a loaded hearse for her not to have ever intervened in some way & I really don't believe that too many actually ride like that - altho I will allow that you hafta push her limits & boundaries pretty damn hard for her to intervene in a manner that is noticeable to some! Still, whatever you do, however you ryde, she is always there & she is always watching - and she intervenes waaayyy more than many might think; they just haven't noticed her gentle touch keeping them safe & their Spyder under control!

.......in short the VSS isn't an on / off .... all or nothing ... type device .... That being said , when I had Toyo T1r's ( 185/55-15's ) on my RT , they stuck like GLUE and I've had NANNY almost shut the Spyder down completely in some turns do to rear end coming loose...... The Nanny makes getting great Tires useless ....... Mike

[Peter Aawen]

...... The Nanny makes getting great Tires useless ....... Mike

While it's probably not quite so cut & dried as all that ^^ makes out, there is definitely a fair degree of reality in there...

It would be sooooo nice to have the capability to 'dial back' the Nanny a bit, or at least dial back some of her fairly cautious safety parameters so that those of us who want to could ryde a bit harder at times; but in this litigious age I can understand why BRP is probably not gonna do that.... doesn't mean I wouldn't jump on it if it was available tho

And no, 'Sport Mode' is NOT exactly what I had in mind! Sport Mode only relaxes the traction control restraints on the rear wheel without relaxing any of the steering control or acceleration/throttle restrictions anywhere else - I'd like to see a bit more scope for hard cornering; more freedom to accelerate harder &/or sooner coming out of a corner; less instant response to lifting a front wheel; greater scope for wheel speed differences to allow a little more controlled 'drifting' et al.

Sure, this sort of thing might not be for everyone; but for some, the ability to work themselves a little harder & thereby take a little more advantage of the limits of the platforms capability would be greatly enhanced by allowing some relaxation of the Nanny's restrictions across the board - it obviously can be done, there are enough demonstrations out there, with vids & movie scenes etc showing Spyders doing things that you & I know the Nanny's WE have been saddled with won't let our Spyders even attempt, but somehow, some way, there are Spyders around that DO have more relaxed Nanny restrictions - I'd like to be able to access that/those, or at least some of them! Hey, even it means we'd hafta pass an 'advanced ryding skills' test to gain said access, I reckon there's a market for it... if only BRP would listen & agree/allow it?!

But since they won't even budge on something as obviously 'disappointing' & seemingly stupid to most owners as continuing to run the sub-optimal OE Kenda Tires...

[TRLBLZR1]

That yellow light flashing means the Nanny IS intervening in some way!!

It could be that she's just limited the spark rate or injection to keep power down a little, or that she's applied any one (or more) of the brakes to ensure that your Spyder can make the corner you've just asked it to thru the steering input you've got dialed in; the speed you are travelling at; what your speed, control input, & the road is doing to/telling all the sensors, & how much lean you personally have put in to keep everything stable; or she could be making any one or more of a whole raft of other little tweaks thru things like the ABS, EBD, DPS, VSS, etc.... all stuff that you may not have noticed the how or realise why she is doing what she's doing, but she definitely IS intervening & keeping things within the parameters she has been told are acceptable!

I suspect that very many of those who claim or think that their Nanny hasn't ever intervened simply haven't realised when she HAS!! It's just that she hasn't had to intervene in a heavy handed or clearly noticeable way, and she can be extremely delicate & discrete!! She is actually quite gentle in most of her applications, but you'd hafta ride your Spyder slower & gentler than a loaded hearse for her not to have ever intervened in some way & I really don't believe that too many actually ride like that - altho I will allow that you hafta push her limits & boundaries pretty damn hard for her to intervene in a manner that is noticeable to some! Still, whatever you do, however you ryde, she is always there & she is always watching - and she intervenes waaayyy more than many might think; they just haven't noticed her gentle touch keeping them safe & their Spyder under control!

Thanks lol! (Now I'm curious as to her "delicate ways.") I'm going to have to disable the anti-slip and do some controlled environment testing. (Like I said, thanks lol!) I've honestly never felt any intervention whatsoever & power has never been noticeably effected. But, maybe it is cutting power a touch so I don't spin the rear tire? ~ I've actually never spun (or tried to spin for that matter) the rear tire, and have little interest in doing so. Nevertheless, I'm truly surprised it has never broken loose, not even accelerating from a stop in a straight line. (Although I've never really hammered on it with intent. And it's the SE model anyways.)

In any event, I'm quite impressed with the on-board "artificial intelligence!"

PS: Coming out of the apex of a turn, my F3-S (se) pulls pretty hard (IMO) without reservation, even in the lower gears with rpm's. (Based on the things I read here, sometimes I think the nanny on my machine isn't online/active at sub 50 mph speeds. ~ Maybe I'm just driving "too delicate" lol.) FWIW: My last bike was a GSXR-1100.

[Tx web rider]

well i dont have the F3 i have a 09 GS that loves to be played with a couple years ago in Colorado we were carving the curves kinda hard lol i was riding with a goldwing and a triumph having a blast many times i would hear in my headset (we were all running the smh 10 senas ) dude your inner wheel is way up there

its fun to lift it and not get the nanny pissed off

but learn your machine its not there to keep you alive when pushing it past the limit its there to check the oopses

i have had mine check me when hydroplaning and when trying to drift

play with it and learn don't exceed its workings unless you want to be in the situation of ahhh ****

i have seen spyders get away from poor riders and cross the line and hit the other side scary he almost hit the rock wall on the pig trail scared the **** out of him we had to baby him to our destination

[Bam Bam and Pebbles]

.......in short the VSS isn't an on / off .... all or nothing ... type device .... That being said , when I had Toyo T1r's ( 185/55-15's ) on my RT , they stuck like GLUE and I've had NANNY almost shut the Spyder down completely in some turns do to rear end coming loose...... The Nanny makes getting great Tires useless ....... Mike

Gotta agree with this!

[BajaRon]

I don't think the metal Helm links actually improve your ride quality, Road-Kill. They are just a higher strength item than the stock BRP plastic links that can break. I am currently running one of each until I get the time to replace a faulty metal link. All works well and is OK by Ron.

Pete

The Billet Aluminum Links actually do make a difference. The OEM links stretch some. More as the stress increases. This dampens the function of the sway bar a bit (making it operate as if it were a bit weaker). It isn't a huge difference. But it is there.

[WackyDan]

Since "the nanny" has become an integral part of this discussion, I have a question regarding it's behavior:

On my F3-S D500 (SE model) I've never experienced nanny (while driving), nor have I ever disabled traction control. No need to IMO, because it must already be set rather "aggressive" on this machine/model, however:

Just realized yesterday that when I take corners and am riding fairly aggressively (at sub 50 mph speeds), I am frequently seeing the yellow traction control flashing. (Very seldom do I watch gauges, but I just happened to notice it once the other day. Looking for this I now realize it's fairly common for it to flash when I'm cornering aggressively/leaning into the corner like this. (Never cuts power or anything, just flashes.) I'm wondering whether this is the difference between the newer models and the older ones that didn't allow you to accelerate coming out of the apex.... (Nanny is more "permissive" in newer machines, but the warning still flashes?) ~ If wrong, could someone explain this?

The F3 is far for subtle than the one on the older GS/RS. I've still had it come on hard a few times, but I've found that it is far more polite in the auto braking and throttle retardation than the older models. Definitely carry far more speed into the turns but I have had it hit the brakes hard on me a few times when I was too hot on entry.

Lastly... Whether or not you embrace the nanny or not is very dependent on the road you are on. Some roads you are trying to carry more speed but on others, the nanny kicking in more in the turns can indeed help you go faster... Seems illogical, but it comes down to trusting the bike to do it's thing and keeping the nanny from over reacting.