stripped oil plug

[JimVonBaden]

Jim, you might be amazed at how many people are unaware of how to properly use a torque wrench, store a torque wrench or calculate proper torque even how to properly read the setting on a click type wrench.

Add to this, most torques listed in manuals are for dry clean threads. If the threads are lubricated in any way, and the required torque is a dry spec not wet torque, the fastener and mating component, be it a nut, threaded hole or even a shaft can be stretched, stripped, crushed or broken.

The over torque of wet vs dry is approximately 30% increase in net load into the threads.

No, I wouldn't be amazed by a lack of knowledge. I teach motorcycle maintenance. BUT, that is not my point. Fear of torque wrenches makes no sense to me. If you are going to avoid torque wrenches, you will often over or under torque fasteners, and either break them, damage the threads, or under torque them and have leaks or fasteners that fall out.

If a torque for a drain plug is listed, it will not be listed as a dry torque, that would be stupid.

As for these broken Dimple Drain Plugs, I was not there, and none of us have witnessed exactly what happened. I do give benefit of doubt that the plug failed and all torques, turning directions were correct.

Our oil is due to be changed. Bob D was kind enough to send me a second pair of Dimple drain plugs as he was hesitant to install them. When I received them, based on memory, I thought the set from Bob appeared different. My original Dimple Drain Plugs I thought were quite shiny and jewel like, also appeared to be made from stainless. I am not sure if they are stainless or not, but should know more once I change the oil. The set I got from Bob, had a more dull gray appearance, and a texture almost as if they had been shot peened. I am not sure of the vintage (date purchased) on Bobs plugs, but the set I installed was an early pair of Dimple Drain Plugs.

I will report back as I have more info to add.

I also was discussing this with my friend and forum member JTORO yesterday. Something I had not heard before but he informed me that upon accomplishing the first oil change by him on his 2015 RTS, he had an oem drain plug fail by breaking and leaving a section in the case. He also informed me he was able to remove the broken section and continue on installing Dimple Drain Plugs.

I don't have any experience with these plugs, so I am learning as I go. All this is good info to me. If this many plugs are breaking, and people are using the correct torque, then it is obvious the plugs are defective. If they are not using a torque wrench, however, then it is hard to say if it is ham fisted wrenching, or defective plugs.

[JimVonBaden]

FWIW, I have taught aircraft maintenance and repair, sometimes a bit frightening. The moto guys are often worse and I have worked with them also.

As for being stupid to list a dry torque on a drain plug, agree it would be stupid but is common to see a standard not corrected torque spec. I need to look up the spec on the Spyder, but it seems high for a wet torque though about correct for dry torque.

It is completely possible that the listed spec is incorrect, if it is for a dry thread. I'll look it up tonight. A good manual will have the spec listed, and tell if it is wet, dry is assumed.

Thanks for the interesting discussion and information!

[DrewNJ]

Common sense guys...Torque specs are assumed dry unless otherwise stated. The torque specs are originally implemented for production/assembly. From there they are later extended out to service manuals.

Most torque wrenches are considerably larger/longer than a regular socket or box wrench. The extra size transitions to extra leverage making it much more possible to strip threads. You really have to try to strip threads with a regular wrench.
You guys really like to over think something so simple. Snug it, tug it and be done.
Ride more, worry less!

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[JimVonBaden]

Common sense guys...Torque specs are assumed dry unless otherwise stated. The torque specs are originally implemented for production/assembly. From there they are later extended out to service manuals.

Most torque wrenches are considerably larger/longer than a regular socket or box wrench. The extra size transitions to extra leverage making it much more possible to strip threads. You really have to try to strip threads with a regular wrench.
You guys really like to over think something so simple. Snug it, tug it and be done.
Ride more, worry less!

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

Saying the length of a torque wrench is the problem is like saying the strength of the person is the problem. What is a "tug", how does that translate to properly crushing a crush washer? I'm pretty sure someone who can't properly use a torque wrench is no more likely to properly use a regular wrench! You are under thinking it.

[Bob Denman]

You guys really like to over think something so simple. Snug it, tug it and be done.
Ride more, worry less!

With this...

Ride MOre worry less 02.jpg

[JimVonBaden]

By the way, back to the whole point of this, unless people are properly using torque wrenches when tightening these plugs, you can't really blame the plug for failing if you are "snugging it and tugging it" tight.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Paul, thanks for going the extra mile on this..... interesting info. Correct me if I'm wrong but the case that these oil plugs go into is Aluminum , correct !!!! ..... and these plugs are Billet Steel !!! .... So how come the Aluminum THREADS didn't .. STRIP ... before the plug snapped ????? .......Mike

[JimVonBaden]

Paul, thanks for going the extra mile on this..... interesting info. Correct me if I'm wrong but case that these oil plugs go into is Aluminum , correct !!!! ..... and these plugs are Billet Steel !!! .... So how come the Aluminum THREADS didn't .. STRIP ... before the plug snapped ????? .......Mike

Good question! One would think the threads on the plug are stronger than the aluminum they thread into!

[DrewNJ]

Hopefully he meant they were made from rolled steel and NOT billet? Billet steel is the softest and most malleable since it's only the second stage of steel production.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

The obvious answer is the aluminum threads are stronger than a drilled fastener, but the real question is not the degree or component that fails, but rather how tight does the plug need to be.

The photo that showed the snapped drain plug indicated from the long burr that the section that remained in the case had intact threads. The point of fracture showed the long burr. And I would speculate that when the failure occurred, the few remaining aluminum threads in contact with the solid section of drain plug did strip out of the case.

It is not a test of a fastener to see if the internal or external threads strip first. Rather can the fastener reach proper torque repeatedly without stretching or failure to either part.

Mike, your logic reminds me of how some aircraft mechanics tighten stuff. Tighter than hell and half a turn more.

Paul, lately I get the impression that my SIMPLE questions are annoying you.!!!!!..... I'd love to borrow your crystal ball so I could ALSO tell what people are thinking and what is really behind the statements they make ......... Here's the GOOD news, I won't ask any more questions involving you ............... .....Mike

[JimVonBaden]

Maybe if time permits, I need to drill and tap an aluminum block. Use the Dimple plug and video it being brought to book spec dry torque. Or better still, use a dial style torque wrench and destroy the drain plug to see the peak torque it fails at.

I will need an oem drain plug and also a Gold Plug to destroy also for comparison if someone could please send them to me.

On a BMW Boxer motor the valve cover bolts are steel and the heads aluminum. I know there are size differences, but it only takes about 20NM to strip out the threads in the head. I have heli-coiled dozens of them from ham fisted wrenchers (not using torque wrenches, though I never use one on them). The bolt has a shoulder on it to prevent smashing the cover seal.




I suspect the plug itself is weak compared to a standard plug. The BMW Boxer motors all have magnetic plugs that will strip the threads before the plug itself breaking.



Engine and trans drain plugs.

[Grandpot]

This is getting to be a really l o n g thread.
💣

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Having a bad Mike? Actually my crystal ball fell of the table and shattered, my magic wand broke and I am fresh out of pixie dust.

Back to the topic, your questions are often not simple. If you prefer a simple answer, aluminum is a weaker material than steel, but less steel could be weaker than aluminum.

As for knowing what people are thinking and no what is behind their statements, you are a difficult person to read. You post something in jest one place and apparently serious in another.
........This is the problem ...... you ( and others ) are trying to read BEHIND the lines / words that are written. Just take the words at FACE value and stop trying to IMAGINE what my mental motive MIGHT be for the question. In your previous Post on this you used the WORD - LOGIC ..... My question had nothing to do with the LOGIC of anything ....... It was purely a question .... I'm not trying to be obtuse .... I value your friendship and intelligent thoughts ..... but lately I feel your criticism towards things I say are going beyond the Academic ...................Mike
As for the failed drain plugs, you bring forward a great point of view. Mine work fine, so why should we even bother with other peoples troubles. They may have caused their own problem, and as they say, if you are gonna be stupid you better be tough or have enough money to pay someone to fix it.

My answers are in red above ........Mike

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Richard then indicated that Dimple Drain Plugs has now gone to a third, and even better improvement in the coatings. He explained the name, it is a zinc process that is very modern and utilized by Mercedes Benz on automotive parts.

It would be interesting to know just exactly how zinc plays a part in this process. If the coating process leaves zinc as a coating on the plug that is not good. Zinc and aluminum do not play well together when they are in direct contact because of the inclination of the zinc to corrode due to the difference in the electromotive force of the electrons in them. Zinc will sacrificially corrode when in contact with aluminum if there is a return path for the electrons. It's actually the same process as in a battery. Water will provide the return path, and the bottom of the engine gets wet from water splashing up against on a wet road. The possibility exists, I believe, that there could be corrosion between the zinc coated drain plug and the aluminum engine case causing the plug to seize up in the threads.

In reality, this is most likely a very low probability corrosion occurrence but why create the risk in the first place?

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Two different brands of magnetic drain plugs, both long drain plugs sure appear to use the same size / diameter of magnet.

When you consider one brand is made from stainless and the other from steel, and in many fasteners made from stainless they are often not as strong as steel, plus stainless against aluminum has natural tendency to gall or seize and will corrode the nearby aluminum.

Did you see " lou49's " - thread " Oil Change " ( and yes they are from the 998 engine ) those GOLD PLUGS have considerably more THREAD material around their Magnets ..........Mike ...............PS , I do think both engines share one plug size, but it isn't the large one.....

[Bob Denman]

Two different brands of magnetic drain plugs, both long drain plugs sure appear to use the same size / diameter of magnet.

When you consider one brand is made from stainless and the other from steel, and in many fasteners made from stainless they are often not as strong as steel, plus stainless against aluminum has natural tendency to gall or seize and will corrode the nearby aluminum.

Hi Paul,
For those of us who have trouble "keeping up" with the metallurgy aficionados in this thread: can you tell us which brands are stainless, and which ones aren't?

[Gator37]

I have seen that other people have replaced the oil plugs on their bikes. I did the first oil change on mine today but, I had an oil plug strip on me. I had the correct "T" tool and it still stripped out. I did get it out and drained the oil. I do not want to put that one, or the other one back in there. I have looked and found another oil plug that others have used but $63.00. I will look and ask if anyone knows of any that do not cost that much.

Why so many stripped oil plugs? Are they making them out of plastic or something? That is kind of ridiculous for people to have to go out and buy another because the manufacturer can't make a decent plug.

[jcthorne]

Why so many stripped oil plugs? Are they making them out of plastic or something? That is kind of ridiculous for people to have to go out and buy another because the manufacturer can't make a decent plug.

At
the moment, its the aftermarket plugs that are failing. I have no problem with the OEM plugs if you use the right tools.

[beefybudds]

Richard and I spoke about the failed drain plugs. He knows his product well. He asked if it was the long or short drain plugs. I explained that there had been failures posted here on Spyderlovers. His words to me were that he had not heard of any failures. He also informed me, and I don't know the criteria for the test, but they accomplish testing on each design to validate that the design is mechanically sound and will not fail with normal use.

Until I read this I had respect for Richard but after reading that he has no knowledge of his drain plug not having any failures is a complete lie.
Next time you talk to him ask about talking to Joel from Minnesota. I probably spent over 2 hours talking to him over several occasions. Some topic was not related to dimple but the initial contact with him was regarding broken dimple plug.
He even sent me out a new pair of dimple plugs.
It makes me so mad to be told he denies knowing about his faulty plugs.
I would think that before the dimple plugs would snap the threads in the aluminum casing would strip out first if the plug was not at fault.
But I could be wrong since I'm not a mechanic or machinist with knowledge in that area.

Went back and looked up when I talked to richard

06/20

6:56PM

To

704-320-0700

45minutes

7/30

1:48PM

To

704-320-0700

25minutes

OK so I kinda over stated the time i talked to him but it was several months ago and I new we did have some lengthy conversations.

[Bob Denman]

Nobody ever admits to have ever heard of any problem over the phone: it opens up too many cans of worms for them...
If you take life with a grain of salt or two: things DO taste a bit better... even the bull****!

[beefybudds]

Not sure if this matters on the quality of the dimple plug vs gold plug but the gold plugs both the short and the long did weight more than the dimple plug.

Also I got this reply back from gold plug today when I asked them the question about there plug in an aluminum case causing corrosion or any problems.

"No need to worry. Those 2 metals only fight in constant salt water contact or when electrical current is running through them.

You will not have any problems with our stainless plug in your aluminum case. We have sold hundreds of thousands of plugs over the last 16 years and have not had any problems."

[jaherbst]

Let's put this puppy to bed. You guys are starting to dig the Fly Specks out of the Sugarbowl again. It's

amazing how these things can morph in to the superfluous. Move on, take a breath go for a ride etc. etc.

etc. "when going through life keep your eye upon the Donut and not upon the Hole" !

Jack

[trikermutha]

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Let's put this puppy to bed. You guys are starting to dig the Fly Specks out of the Sugarbowl again. It's

amazing how these things can morph in to the superfluous. Move on, take a breath go for a ride etc. etc.

etc. "when going through life keep your eye upon the Donut and not upon the Hole" !

Jack

Yeah, but if you look through the hole you can see the other side!!

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I replaced my large plug with a GOLD plug ( in 1330 eng.) 11/21/15 , then checked it at oil change 6-18-16, it looked fine ..... I will be checking it again very soon. I'll pay close attention to what it looks like............ Mike