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11-01-2016, 07:42 AM
#101
Very Active Member
Originally Posted by PMK
Jim, you might be amazed at how many people are unaware of how to properly use a torque wrench, store a torque wrench or calculate proper torque even how to properly read the setting on a click type wrench.
Add to this, most torques listed in manuals are for dry clean threads. If the threads are lubricated in any way, and the required torque is a dry spec not wet torque, the fastener and mating component, be it a nut, threaded hole or even a shaft can be stretched, stripped, crushed or broken.
The over torque of wet vs dry is approximately 30% increase in net load into the threads.
No, I wouldn't be amazed by a lack of knowledge. I teach motorcycle maintenance. BUT, that is not my point. Fear of torque wrenches makes no sense to me. If you are going to avoid torque wrenches, you will often over or under torque fasteners, and either break them, damage the threads, or under torque them and have leaks or fasteners that fall out.
If a torque for a drain plug is listed, it will not be listed as a dry torque, that would be stupid.
As for these broken Dimple Drain Plugs, I was not there, and none of us have witnessed exactly what happened. I do give benefit of doubt that the plug failed and all torques, turning directions were correct.
Our oil is due to be changed. Bob D was kind enough to send me a second pair of Dimple drain plugs as he was hesitant to install them. When I received them, based on memory, I thought the set from Bob appeared different. My original Dimple Drain Plugs I thought were quite shiny and jewel like, also appeared to be made from stainless. I am not sure if they are stainless or not, but should know more once I change the oil. The set I got from Bob, had a more dull gray appearance, and a texture almost as if they had been shot peened. I am not sure of the vintage (date purchased) on Bobs plugs, but the set I installed was an early pair of Dimple Drain Plugs.
I will report back as I have more info to add.
I also was discussing this with my friend and forum member JTORO yesterday. Something I had not heard before but he informed me that upon accomplishing the first oil change by him on his 2015 RTS, he had an oem drain plug fail by breaking and leaving a section in the case. He also informed me he was able to remove the broken section and continue on installing Dimple Drain Plugs.
I don't have any experience with these plugs, so I am learning as I go. All this is good info to me. If this many plugs are breaking, and people are using the correct torque, then it is obvious the plugs are defective. If they are not using a torque wrench, however, then it is hard to say if it is ham fisted wrenching, or defective plugs.
Jim
2013 ST-S (wife's)
2015 BMW R1200GS (mine)
1981 Yamaha XS400 Scrambler Custom (mine)
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11-01-2016, 09:26 AM
#102
Very Active Member
Originally Posted by PMK
FWIW, I have taught aircraft maintenance and repair, sometimes a bit frightening. The moto guys are often worse and I have worked with them also.
As for being stupid to list a dry torque on a drain plug, agree it would be stupid but is common to see a standard not corrected torque spec. I need to look up the spec on the Spyder, but it seems high for a wet torque though about correct for dry torque.
It is completely possible that the listed spec is incorrect, if it is for a dry thread. I'll look it up tonight. A good manual will have the spec listed, and tell if it is wet, dry is assumed.
Thanks for the interesting discussion and information!
Jim
2013 ST-S (wife's)
2015 BMW R1200GS (mine)
1981 Yamaha XS400 Scrambler Custom (mine)
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11-01-2016, 12:48 PM
#103
Common sense guys...Torque specs are assumed dry unless otherwise stated. The torque specs are originally implemented for production/assembly. From there they are later extended out to service manuals.
Most torque wrenches are considerably larger/longer than a regular socket or box wrench. The extra size transitions to extra leverage making it much more possible to strip threads. You really have to try to strip threads with a regular wrench.
You guys really like to over think something so simple. Snug it, tug it and be done.
Ride more, worry less!
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11-01-2016, 01:03 PM
#104
Very Active Member
Originally Posted by DrewNJ
Common sense guys...Torque specs are assumed dry unless otherwise stated. The torque specs are originally implemented for production/assembly. From there they are later extended out to service manuals.
Most torque wrenches are considerably larger/longer than a regular socket or box wrench. The extra size transitions to extra leverage making it much more possible to strip threads. You really have to try to strip threads with a regular wrench.
You guys really like to over think something so simple. Snug it, tug it and be done.
Ride more, worry less!
Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
Saying the length of a torque wrench is the problem is like saying the strength of the person is the problem. What is a "tug", how does that translate to properly crushing a crush washer? I'm pretty sure someone who can't properly use a torque wrench is no more likely to properly use a regular wrench! You are under thinking it.
Jim
2013 ST-S (wife's)
2015 BMW R1200GS (mine)
1981 Yamaha XS400 Scrambler Custom (mine)
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11-01-2016, 01:07 PM
#105
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11-01-2016, 01:13 PM
#106
Very Active Member
By the way, back to the whole point of this, unless people are properly using torque wrenches when tightening these plugs, you can't really blame the plug for failing if you are "snugging it and tugging it" tight.
Jim
2013 ST-S (wife's)
2015 BMW R1200GS (mine)
1981 Yamaha XS400 Scrambler Custom (mine)
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11-03-2016, 10:02 AM
#107
Very Active Member
DIMPLE QUESTIONS WITH OWNER
Paul, thanks for going the extra mile on this..... interesting info. Correct me if I'm wrong but the case that these oil plugs go into is Aluminum , correct !!!! ..... and these plugs are Billet Steel !!! .... So how come the Aluminum THREADS didn't .. STRIP ... before the plug snapped ????? .......Mike
Last edited by BLUEKNIGHT911; 11-03-2016 at 10:44 AM.
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11-03-2016, 10:19 AM
#108
Very Active Member
Jim
2013 ST-S (wife's)
2015 BMW R1200GS (mine)
1981 Yamaha XS400 Scrambler Custom (mine)
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11-03-2016, 10:54 AM
#109
Hopefully he meant they were made from rolled steel and NOT billet? Billet steel is the softest and most malleable since it's only the second stage of steel production.
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11-03-2016, 11:50 AM
#110
Very Active Member
LOGIC & MIND READING
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11-03-2016, 11:57 AM
#111
Very Active Member
Jim
2013 ST-S (wife's)
2015 BMW R1200GS (mine)
1981 Yamaha XS400 Scrambler Custom (mine)
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11-03-2016, 01:01 PM
#112
Very Active Member
This is getting to be a really l o n g thread.
💣
2011 RTS (Sold to a very nice lady)
1998 Honda Valkyrie
2006 Mustang GT. Varooooom!
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Experience is recognizing the same mistake every time you make it!
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11-03-2016, 01:20 PM
#113
Very Active Member
LAST TRY
Originally Posted by PMK
Having a bad Mike? Actually my crystal ball fell of the table and shattered, my magic wand broke and I am fresh out of pixie dust.
Back to the topic, your questions are often not simple. If you prefer a simple answer, aluminum is a weaker material than steel, but less steel could be weaker than aluminum.
As for knowing what people are thinking and no what is behind their statements, you are a difficult person to read. You post something in jest one place and apparently serious in another.
........This is the problem ...... you ( and others ) are trying to read BEHIND the lines / words that are written. Just take the words at FACE value and stop trying to IMAGINE what my mental motive MIGHT be for the question. In your previous Post on this you used the WORD - LOGIC ..... My question had nothing to do with the LOGIC of anything ....... It was purely a question .... I'm not trying to be obtuse .... I value your friendship and intelligent thoughts ..... but lately I feel your criticism towards things I say are going beyond the Academic ...................Mike
As for the failed drain plugs, you bring forward a great point of view. Mine work fine, so why should we even bother with other peoples troubles. They may have caused their own problem, and as they say, if you are gonna be stupid you better be tough or have enough money to pay someone to fix it.
My answers are in red above ........Mike
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11-04-2016, 12:24 AM
#114
Very Active Member
Originally Posted by PMK
Richard then indicated that Dimple Drain Plugs has now gone to a third, and even better improvement in the coatings. He explained the name, it is a zinc process that is very modern and utilized by Mercedes Benz on automotive parts.
It would be interesting to know just exactly how zinc plays a part in this process. If the coating process leaves zinc as a coating on the plug that is not good. Zinc and aluminum do not play well together when they are in direct contact because of the inclination of the zinc to corrode due to the difference in the electromotive force of the electrons in them. Zinc will sacrificially corrode when in contact with aluminum if there is a return path for the electrons. It's actually the same process as in a battery. Water will provide the return path, and the bottom of the engine gets wet from water splashing up against on a wet road. The possibility exists, I believe, that there could be corrosion between the zinc coated drain plug and the aluminum engine case causing the plug to seize up in the threads.
In reality, this is most likely a very low probability corrosion occurrence but why create the risk in the first place?
2014 Copper RTS
Tri-Axis bars, CB, BajaRon sway bar & shock adjusters, SpyderPop's Bumpskid, NBV peg brackets, LED headlights and modulator, Wolo trumpet air horns, trailer hitch, custom trailer harness, high mount turn signals, Custom Dynamics brake light, LED turn signal lights on mirrors, LED strip light for a dash light, garage door opener, LED lights in frunk, trunk, and saddlebags, RAM mounts and cradles for tablet (for GPS) and phone (for music), and Smooth Spyder belt tensioner.
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11-05-2016, 09:47 AM
#115
Very Active Member
DIFFERENT PLUGS
Originally Posted by PMK
Two different brands of magnetic drain plugs, both long drain plugs sure appear to use the same size / diameter of magnet.
When you consider one brand is made from stainless and the other from steel, and in many fasteners made from stainless they are often not as strong as steel, plus stainless against aluminum has natural tendency to gall or seize and will corrode the nearby aluminum.
Did you see " lou49's " - thread " Oil Change " ( and yes they are from the 998 engine ) those GOLD PLUGS have considerably more THREAD material around their Magnets ..........Mike ...............PS , I do think both engines share one plug size, but it isn't the large one.....
Last edited by BLUEKNIGHT911; 11-05-2016 at 09:50 AM.
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11-05-2016, 11:26 AM
#116
Originally Posted by PMK
Two different brands of magnetic drain plugs, both long drain plugs sure appear to use the same size / diameter of magnet.
When you consider one brand is made from stainless and the other from steel, and in many fasteners made from stainless they are often not as strong as steel, plus stainless against aluminum has natural tendency to gall or seize and will corrode the nearby aluminum.
Hi Paul,
For those of us who have trouble "keeping up" with the metallurgy aficionados in this thread: can you tell us which brands are stainless, and which ones aren't?
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11-05-2016, 02:52 PM
#117
Why stripped oil plugs
Originally Posted by Semper Fi
I have seen that other people have replaced the oil plugs on their bikes. I did the first oil change on mine today but, I had an oil plug strip on me. I had the correct "T" tool and it still stripped out. I did get it out and drained the oil. I do not want to put that one, or the other one back in there. I have looked and found another oil plug that others have used but $63.00. I will look and ask if anyone knows of any that do not cost that much.
Why so many stripped oil plugs? Are they making them out of plastic or something? That is kind of ridiculous for people to have to go out and buy another because the manufacturer can't make a decent plug.
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11-05-2016, 04:35 PM
#118
Very Active Member
Originally Posted by Gator37
Why so many stripped oil plugs? Are they making them out of plastic or something? That is kind of ridiculous for people to have to go out and buy another because the manufacturer can't make a decent plug.
At
the moment, its the aftermarket plugs that are failing. I have no problem with the OEM plugs if you use the right tools.
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11-05-2016, 07:17 PM
#119
Originally Posted by PMK
Richard and I spoke about the failed drain plugs. He knows his product well. He asked if it was the long or short drain plugs. I explained that there had been failures posted here on Spyderlovers. His words to me were that he had not heard of any failures. He also informed me, and I don't know the criteria for the test, but they accomplish testing on each design to validate that the design is mechanically sound and will not fail with normal use.
Until I read this I had respect for Richard but after reading that he has no knowledge of his drain plug not having any failures is a complete lie.
Next time you talk to him ask about talking to Joel from Minnesota. I probably spent over 2 hours talking to him over several occasions. Some topic was not related to dimple but the initial contact with him was regarding broken dimple plug.
He even sent me out a new pair of dimple plugs.
It makes me so mad to be told he denies knowing about his faulty plugs.
I would think that before the dimple plugs would snap the threads in the aluminum casing would strip out first if the plug was not at fault.
But I could be wrong since I'm not a mechanic or machinist with knowledge in that area.
Went back and looked up when I talked to richard
06/20 |
6:56PM |
To |
704-320-0700 |
45minutes |
7/30 |
1:48PM |
To |
704-320-0700 |
25minutes |
OK so I kinda over stated the time i talked to him but it was several months ago and I new we did have some lengthy conversations.
Last edited by beefybudds; 11-06-2016 at 01:16 AM.
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11-06-2016, 12:36 PM
#120
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11-07-2016, 09:49 PM
#121
Not sure if this matters on the quality of the dimple plug vs gold plug but the gold plugs both the short and the long did weight more than the dimple plug.
Also I got this reply back from gold plug today when I asked them the question about there plug in an aluminum case causing corrosion or any problems.
"No need to worry. Those 2 metals only fight in constant salt water contact or when electrical current is running through them.
You will not have any problems with our stainless plug in your aluminum case. We have sold hundreds of thousands of plugs over the last 16 years and have not had any problems."
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11-07-2016, 10:42 PM
#122
Very Active Member
Let's put this puppy to bed. You guys are starting to dig the Fly Specks out of the Sugarbowl again. It's
amazing how these things can morph in to the superfluous. Move on, take a breath go for a ride etc. etc.
etc. "when going through life keep your eye upon the Donut and not upon the Hole" !
Jack
All my life I wanted to be somebody, now I realize I should have been more specific.
2019 Specialized E-Bike COMO 2.0
2018 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland
2018 Tiffin Phaeton 37BH Motorhome
2015 BMW R1200R LC
2014 RTL SE6 Pearl White
2012 RT-622 trailer viper red
2014 Look 7x12 motorcycle trailer silver and black
2011 Polaris Ranger green
2013 GMC Yukon Denali XL silver oak
2016 Can Am Maverick
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11-07-2016, 10:47 PM
#123
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11-08-2016, 12:29 AM
#124
Very Active Member
Originally Posted by jaherbst
Let's put this puppy to bed. You guys are starting to dig the Fly Specks out of the Sugarbowl again. It's
amazing how these things can morph in to the superfluous. Move on, take a breath go for a ride etc. etc.
etc. "when going through life keep your eye upon the Donut and not upon the Hole" !
Jack
Yeah, but if you look through the hole you can see the other side!!
2014 Copper RTS
Tri-Axis bars, CB, BajaRon sway bar & shock adjusters, SpyderPop's Bumpskid, NBV peg brackets, LED headlights and modulator, Wolo trumpet air horns, trailer hitch, custom trailer harness, high mount turn signals, Custom Dynamics brake light, LED turn signal lights on mirrors, LED strip light for a dash light, garage door opener, LED lights in frunk, trunk, and saddlebags, RAM mounts and cradles for tablet (for GPS) and phone (for music), and Smooth Spyder belt tensioner.
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11-08-2016, 10:18 AM
#125
Very Active Member
STAINLESS - GOLD PLUG
I replaced my large plug with a GOLD plug ( in 1330 eng.) 11/21/15 , then checked it at oil change 6-18-16, it looked fine ..... I will be checking it again very soon. I'll pay close attention to what it looks like............ Mike
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