BRP belt tensioner

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

I am saying that with the bike parked in neutral = zero belt movement & the engine rev'd to 3500 rpm I can feel the vibration. What part don't you understand?? The "Crikit" is a tool that allows one to measure belt tension. Please explain what you do not understand..

In other words I'm saying I could remove the belt from the F3's, rev the engine in the 3,000--4,000 rpm range, and still feel the vibration.
Darrell

You quoted Lamont's post about the belt tensioner from BRP. You asked how that compares to the Crikit. What's to compare? One applies tension, the other measures it. The price of one has nothing to do with the price of the other.

Now, if you are wondering how much tension the BRP tensioner applies compared to the Smoothspyder tensioner, and what the belt tension ought to be before and after installing the tensioner, and what the Crikit measurement should be, then now, that would be a pertinent question/comment.

I will accept the idea that engine vibration MAY induce belt vibration sometimes. I have had my belt start vibrating when I've hit a patch of rough pavement. If it's on the verge of vibrating it won't take much to send it into vibration. As others have said, this discussion is about belt vibration, not engine vibration. Two totally separate animals.

[IdleUp]

There really is no clear definition of a recall - I mean if you buy a bike and the transmission is defective, they have to replace it - the belt problem is no different!

We already paid for their research and development in the price of the bike - lets face it you can buy a nice car for $8-10,000 less than we paid - so make the idler out of something other than cheap plastic on the wrong side of the belt and lets fix the thing.

[Bob Denman]

Thank you for the reply and teaching me something new.
Seems like Bob was just trying to be a jerk.

I was actually wondering why you would use an example of a missing piece on a bike: that is a clear and simple warranty issue. Your dealer would probably even pull an antenna off of a showroom model, for the easiest possible solution.
I
Trust me: I don't need your help to be a jerk!

As far as this requiring a big step from BRP to fix every bike...
There's lots of us riding, who rarely touch that part of the speedometer. Truthfully; I only get to 75 mph or higher when riding to Missouri with a bunch of Hooligans!
It might just not be the widespread issue that you think: even if every bike is affected by it. (Which they are...)

Just sayin'...

[ThreeWheels]

This thread is getting long, so I haven't had time to read all the posts.
I apologize ahead of time if others have asked these questions.
1) Is there any plan to make the BRP tensioner available for the RT models ?
2) Why are the aftermarket tensioners made out of metal at hundreds of dollars more ? Are the aftermarket tensioners overpriced, or is the BRP tensioner made too cheaply ?

At $50, I'd certainly get one for my RT.

[Bob Denman]

We haven't heard anything yet about one for our RTs...
As far as pricing and quality: the market will have to decide that one!

[Wildrice]

You quoted Lamont's post about the belt tensioner from BRP. You asked how that compares to the Crikit. What's to compare? One applies tension, the other measures it. The price of one has nothing to do with the price of the other.

Now, if you are wondering how much tension the BRP tensioner applies compared to the Smoothspyder tensioner, and what the belt tension ought to be before and after installing the tensioner, and what the Crikit measurement should be, then now, that would be a pertinent question/comment.

I will accept the idea that engine vibration MAY induce belt vibration sometimes. I have had my belt start vibrating when I've hit a patch of rough pavement. If it's on the verge of vibrating it won't take much to send it into vibration. As others have said, this discussion is about belt vibration, not engine vibration. Two totally separate animals.

Please explain--I don't understand your comment---I thought we were discussing Spyder vibration. Please explain --one applies tension & the other measures it---thus if one applies more tension there is no need to measure it--is that what you're saying?? I have vibration pads on my floorboards --it helps a lot--am I reducing the vibration from the engine or belt? Vibration is very similar to water flow--it takes the easiest path--trench a small diversion path from main water flow & the water volume reduces--same with vibration---the belt roller reduces the vibration via a new path--it does very little to the source of the vibration.. If you hit a patch of uneven surface & started feeling vibration--it's Not the belt--it's your suspension problem.

[jcthorne]

Please explain--I don't understand your comment---I thought we were discussing Spyder vibration. Please explain --one applies tension & the other measures it---thus if one applies more tension there is no need to measure it--is that what you're saying?? I have vibration pads on my floorboards --it helps a lot--am I reducing the vibration from the engine or belt? Vibration is very similar to water flow--it takes the easiest path--trench a small diversion path from main water flow & the water volume reduces--same with vibration---the belt roller reduces the vibration via a new path--it does very little to the source of the vibration.. If you hit a patch of uneven surface & started feeling vibration--it's Not the belt--it's your suspension problem.

The belt, because of its long length has a harmonic frequency where it likes to 'strum' if you will, that falls in the range of normal driving. The roller shortens the length of the undamped section of belt, roughly in half, moving the harmonic frequency well above operating range.

[Peteoz]

Idaho,

I think Wilrice is saying that he is getting vibration at the RPM at which most are experiencing it, even when he is stationery and the belt is not moving. Does this not mean that it may if fact NOT be the belt that is causing the vibration?

Wildrice,

If the above is the case, why do those with the tensioner no longer get the vibration if the vibration is not solely from the belt?

I'm not trying to put words into either of your mouths, so I apologise if I have misinterpreted, but I am interested.....

Pete

[Wildrice]

Idaho,

I think Wilrice is saying that he is getting vibration at the RPM at which most are experiencing it, even when he is stationery and the belt is not moving. Does this not mean that it may if fact NOT be the belt that is causing the vibration?

Wildrice,

If the above is the case, why do those with the tensioner no longer get the vibration if the vibration is not solely from the belt?

I'm not trying to put words into either of your mouths, so I apologise if I have misinterpreted, but I am interested.....

Pete

I have the Baker roller tensioner--both variations with the roller on the top belt & bottom belt.. Yes the additional roller does dampen the vibration---but if it is the belt--why can the vibrations be felt in the 3K-4K rpm range regardless of which gear--the belt is probably spinning twice as fast in 6th gear as it is in 3rd or 4th gear. Now how is it possible the belt can cause the vibration at the same 3K--4K rpm in difference gears with with the belt spinning at different speeds but the only vibration is in the 3K-4K rpm range. The roller simply absorbs & attenuates part of the vibration .

[cmarsala]

Here are some pictures of the tensioner on my wife's F3. I couldn't get the whole thing in the picture because I would have had to take off the side chrome piece that the rails attach to and I didn't feel like getting into that tonight.

I didnt see any numbers on it which is not surprising for a prototype.

It is made of plastic and has a spring on the base of the tensioner to keep the tension.




I lifted it up for you to see it better.



I would say that SmoothSpyder and Baker is probably built tougher.

From the picture's it doesn't look like it has a bearing in it, just a plastic pulley mounted with a bolt, that thing will wear out fast no matter how much you lube it. Could explain why it's so cheap from BRP, but if the price is right I'll get one and modify it to make sure it gets a bearing. Just my 2¢.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

I have the Baker roller tensioner--both variations with the roller on the top belt & bottom belt.. Yes the additional roller does dampen the vibration---but if it is the belt--why can the vibrations be felt in the 3K-4K rpm range regardless of which gear--the belt is probably spinning twice as fast in 6th gear as it is in 3rd or 4th gear. Now how is it possible the belt can cause the vibration at the same 3K--4K rpm in difference gears with with the belt spinning at different speeds but the only vibration is in the 3K-4K rpm range. The roller simply absorbs & attenuates part of the vibration .

You know what, Wild? This is the first post you've made that I can find where you so clearly have explained your vibration problem! There are two other posts describing the same issue. http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/s...=1#post1145832 and the one immediately following.

It reads like something is going on that hasn't been described very well before, if at all. After reading your comment, and the other two, I think there may be something more than a strictly belt speed related vibration. Maybe the BRP engineers have figured it out but aren't fessing up. Apparently it all is related to the belt length. The RT has the same engine and shorter belt but I don't recall anyone reporting a clear RPM related vibration with the RT such as you and the others have for the F3. Maybe the engine mounting system in the F3 allows the engine vibration to cause the belt to vibrate regardless whether it is moving or not. Depending on tension, the belt tensioner will reduce the vibration different amounts. That is probably why some owners report pretty much complete vibration reduction with the tensioner and you haven't. I'm guessing no one has documented what the sweet spot of belt tension and tensioner pressure is that works. Maybe BRP engineers have, and they're not ready to disclose it yet. Those numbers may be part of the package with the new tensioner they're coming out with.

Maybe the engine mounting itself has a harmonic vibration point at the 3 to 4k rpm range. But I doubt it or more owners would report the problem.

I know this is a lot maybes, and may be largely speculative, but it's all I have for now.

[Msmoto]

It would seem my experience is the vibration on my Spyder is clearly related to vehicle speed and throttle on or off. So, there may be other vibrations with the engine, not something i have noticed.

Not a recall, IMO, but could be a warranty issue if someone has some type of untoward consequence as a result of the vibration. While many vehicles on the road today have similar issues, the manufacturers often, but not always attempt to correct these in future products. What I am going to be looking for is BRP supplying the belt tensioner on newer Spyders, or they may find another solution, perhaps changing the belt construction in some way so as to eliminate or change the resonant frequency, which may play a part in the vibration many of us experience.

Historical, in the 1970's, Porsche and VW produced a Model 914, and this had a chassis resonant frequency which when a front tire was the least bit out of round, created a severe vibration at 55 mph. This reproduced at 110 mph as well. Thousands of tires were cut under warranty to reduce this but by 1974 the wheels were changed so as to center them better on the hubs and eventually the issue was resolved. But, no correction for many model years was offered except to cut tires which of course reduced tire life severely.

In a racing 914, the roll cage and suspension mods eliminated the vibration....

Sorry for the "story" from before many on the forum were born...LOL

[Capt. Bob]

Your story about the Porsche/VW story is quite relevant to the current issues of the belt drive/possible engine vibes we feel in the current Spyders. I think it was as recently as 2014 that the Honda CRV had an inherent vibration that caused Honda Motors of America untold hours and hairpulling until they realized that the source of the vibes was I think from either a defective radiator mounting and/or a motor mount? I can't remember in the story which ended up being the source of the vibration. A knowledgeable service writer told me that the vibrations caused untold amounts of customer dissatisfaction until Honda was able to diagnosed and come up with a fix for the problem.

[Wildrice]

You know what, Wild? This is the first post you've made that I can find where you so clearly have explained your vibration problem! There are two other posts describing the same issue. http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/s...=1#post1145832 and the one immediately following.

It reads like something is going on that hasn't been described very well before, if at all. After reading your comment, and the other two, I think there may be something more than a strictly belt speed related vibration. Maybe the BRP engineers have figured it out but aren't fessing up. Apparently it all is related to the belt length. The RT has the same engine and shorter belt but I don't recall anyone reporting a clear RPM related vibration with the RT such as you and the others have for the F3. Maybe the engine mounting system in the F3 allows the engine vibration to cause the belt to vibrate regardless whether it is moving or not. Depending on tension, the belt tensioner will reduce the vibration different amounts. That is probably why some owners report pretty much complete vibration reduction with the tensioner and you haven't. I'm guessing no one has documented what the sweet spot of belt tension and tensioner pressure is that works. Maybe BRP engineers have, and they're not ready to disclose it yet. Those numbers may be part of the package with the new tensioner they're coming out with.

Maybe the engine mounting itself has a harmonic vibration point at the 3 to 4k rpm range. But I doubt it or more owners would report the problem.

I know this is a lot maybes, and may be largely speculative, but it's all I have for now.

Thank You Kindly IdahoMtnSpyder,
Somethings are difficult to put into words that everyone understands. What I am Really saying is BRP has come up with a solution to dampen the existing engine vibrations. For us existing Spyder owners really nothing inexpensive will solve the real problem. If BRP put quality control into mfg & purchased pistons, rods, motor mounts, harmonic balancer, etc, that have a tighter weight spec equality--we would see no problem. This of course is for future engine builds on future model Spyders..

Example--if you have any devise in your home--fans,humidifier, etc that make a buzzing sound --place your hand on the device & notice how your hand dissipates--reduces the vibration noise. That is exactly what the belt tensioners are doing--giving another path to reduce the vibration. Some lucky individuals may have engines that were assembled with matching balanced parts or close to matching parts thus they have less harmonic vibrations & the tension roller will do magic to remove their vibration. Some of us weren't so lucky during engine mnfg.

Now I fully realize that BRP will not recall unbalanced engines--thus for $$$ sake they need to appease the current owners with the least expensive modification--aka--belt tensioner. What surprises me is that I know the difference between the sound of an engine high pitch vibration and a low pitch belt vibration---they are not the same---just possibly a few others don't.
It's time for me to step out of this vibration conversation--I feel I have upset a few people & that was not my intention. My true intention was to make BRP realize that we know the source of the problem & the source is within their engine mfg quality control specs and for BRP to rectify this problem on future Spyder engine builds.
Thank everyone for listening to my complaint--I'm sure some will understand & some won't--now isn't that "just life on life's terms"
Darrell

[bscrive]

From the picture's it doesn't look like it has a bearing in it, just a plastic pulley mounted with a bolt, that thing will wear out fast no matter how much you lube it. Could explain why it's so cheap from BRP, but if the price is right I'll get one and modify it to make sure it gets a bearing. Just my 2¢.

There is a bering in there. If there wasn't, I wouldn't have let them put it on my wife's bike.

[Pirate looks at --]

Much ado about nothing! Took a nice 180 mile jaunt to Monterey California yesterday. Traveled at speeds from 25 to 90! You know what, I can't remember whether I felt any vibration or not. I just had a blast Ryding and chasing my wife on our RTL, funny she didn't say anything about vibration when we got here either! I am amazed at how some people love to whine and complain! Life is short and precious! Get out and ryde more, complain less! Any of us that can afford a Spyder, and are able to ryde it, have nothing to complain about! Oh today I will be making the reverse run, and you know what, I won't feel the vibration again!

[Bob Denman]

There is a bering in there. If there wasn't, I wouldn't have let them put it on my wife's bike.

Thanks for the clarification!

[hypurone]

Much ado about nothing! I am amazed at how some people love to whine and complain!

Seriously? Just because you don't feel it doesn't mean it isn't there and felt by many others, myself included. This isn't a whine and complain event (OK, maybe for some), but primarily, it's a bunch of folks who have paid a bunch of money for something that has an inherent vibration problem and would like to be taken care by the folks that built it and charged all that money for it...

[Pirate looks at --]

Seriously? Just because you don't feel it doesn't mean it isn't there and felt by many others, myself included. This isn't a whine and complain event (OK, maybe for some), but primarily, it's a bunch of folks who have paid a bunch of money for something that has an inherent vibration problem and would like to be taken care by the folks that built it and charged all that money for it...

Just sayin not much of a problem when you compare the problems other people have in their lives. Take for example this young lady.

https://youtu.be/mq0HrmxfrA4. I just gotta say, if the belt on my Spyder vibrates, no matter how much I paid for both of them, not really asking for a recall, or anything else. Just ryde it and enjoy the fact that I can! And you can too. Enjoy!

[Msmoto]

If we are experiencing a harmonic vibration, i.e., belt and chassis in unison, then it is quite possible this will be different on the various models of Spyder all of which have different chassis harmonics due to the configuration and accessories, such as the seat on the RT touring models or complete lack of saddlebags on the basic F3. Thus, what may be highly significant and a more severe vibration for some of us, may not be nearly as much a problem on others.

I do think we all can be very grateful for just having the opportunity to ride one of these very interesting machines, vibration or not.

[Peteoz]

If we are experiencing a harmonic vibration, i.e., belt and chassis in unison, then it is quite possible this will be different on the various models of Spyder all of which have different chassis harmonics due to the configuration and accessories, such as the seat on the RT touring models or complete lack of saddlebags on the basic F3. Thus, what may be highly significant and a more severe vibration for some of us, may not be nearly as much a problem on others.

I do think we all can be very grateful for just having the opportunity to ride one of these very interesting machines, vibration or not.

Makes sense, Msmoto. Thanks.

I think most people ARE indeed very grateful to be able to ride a Spyder, but we are all different. Some tone pitches that my wife hears really play with her head, yet I don't hear them, and vice versa. I can understand completely why a particular vibration annoys the heck out of some people, and not out of others. I certainly won't be criticising anyone (and I'm not saying you are ) for looking for a solution because the vibration really bothers them.

As for Pirate trying to make those who are really bothered by the vibration feel guilty, because there are people in life far worse off than them, I find that right out there in the "what the?" category.

Pete

[Samson]

I take delivery of my F3T on Thursday, it has 1 mile on it and I have no idea if it has a vibration or not since I haven't even seen it yet. I will tell you this, I can't wait to ride this great looking machine. I have had many bikes in the past 50 years and I feel like a kid in a candy store.

[stebrock]

Just sayin not much of a problem when you compare the problems other people have in their lives. Take for example this young lady.

https://youtu.be/mq0HrmxfrA4. I just gotta say, if the belt on my Spyder vibrates, no matter how much I paid for both of them, not really asking for a recall, or anything else. Just ryde it and enjoy the fact that I can! And you can too. Enjoy!

If that's really the way you feel why did you waste your time (reading 4 pages) and our time?

[wd8ajj]

Was it an easy install? Did the dealer have to rear down the left side ti install?

[Msmoto]

Another check this evening, the vibration is so variable, dependent on speed, load, road surface, and the good news, mine seems tolerable at 68 mph, yet can be severe at both lower and higher speeds, all load dependent.