To Steve (BRPcare) about DESS issues

[jimsrts15]

If It is an IRF problem, shield the key and the ignition with an aluminum can with the top and bottom cut out. Put can over ignition, place key, turn on. Can should shield all radio noise. Jimmy

[larryd]

We had the 4916 module installed on 1/4/16 at 4,400 miles after several DESS dash messages. Dealer did not list any key reprogramming and no other parts were listed on the R.O. As of today, at 5500 miles, we have had one episode where it was a no start. Same DESS message. The only difference was that the bike was still in the garage and had not been started in several days. Previously, all the no starts were on highway trips where we stopped for fuel and drink. In all the instances we removed the key and walked away from bike and it did start and run fine.

I also have the 4916 module...It was replaced 11/9/15...800 miles ago...Had the DESS error 3 times in one day the last time I rode...BRP seems to be clueless as to how to fix it...They are telling my dealer its a RFI problem, and its my problem, and I'm the only one that has the latest and greatest module that has the problem...WRONG...This is my forth go around with the DESS problem...And one of the previous times it let me set a long way from home and I had to get a ride home and get my truck and trailer and tow it back to the dealer all on my dime...I contacted their road assistance and they wanted over $500.00 to tow it back to the dealer...After I took it back on my dime I contacted their road assistance again and wanted reimbursed for my cost and they said they WON'T pay me...Am I a happy owner/rider???

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

I also have the 4916 module...It was replaced 11/9/15...800 miles ago...Had the DESS error 3 times in one day the last time I rode...BRP seems to be clueless as to how to fix it...They are telling my dealer its a RFI problem, and its my problem, and I'm the only one that has the latest and greatest module that has the problem...WRONG...This is my forth go around with the DESS problem...And one of the previous times it let me set a long way from home and I had to get a ride home and get my truck and trailer and tow it back to the dealer all on my dime...I contacted their road assistance and they wanted over $500.00 to tow it back to the dealer...After I took it back on my dime I contacted their road assistance again and wanted reimbursed for my cost and they said they WON'T pay me...Am I a happy owner/rider???

Do you have anything metal attached to the key when the error comes up, like a key ring or other key? If so, remove it. In a little experiment I ran last night a key ring and key number tag helped to create an error when I placed my Nissan key next to the Spyder key in the ignition.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

I want to emphasize again, there is no such thing as the dealer reprogramming the keys. There is ONLY reprogramming the ECM for the keys. The reprogramming via BUDS only tells the ECM to read the keys and store the information from them in it. Nothing the dealer does changes anything in the key chip. If reprogramming the ECM helps to solve the problem then that means there is an issue with the ECM, or the ECM did not read and store correct information during the previous programming process. If the latter the keys most likely would have never worked to start the Spyder.

If, by a very small possibility, the chip in the key(s) is defective then reprogramming the ECM for the keys will be hit and miss at best. It won't be a fix. The chip in the key is read only memory and, I'm going to venture to say, can be programmed only one time at the factory using special computer systems when the key is first manufactured. After that the code is permanently burned in, never to be changed again.

[cuznjohn]

i just watched a show about UFO'S, and it said that they threw off EMF fields. so the next time this happens to someone, look up and see if you see one. i am going to keep a eye out also

[PaladinLV]

So then, to shield the system, are we assuming the incorrect RF is being read by the antenna which is within the keyed ignition switch, or are we now considering to shield all the wires and DESS module itself.

Incorrect.

The key contains a passive transponder which is energized and tripped upon receiving a signal from the DESS.

AJ

[PMK]

Incorrect.

The key contains a passive transponder which is energized and tripped upon receiving a signal from the DESS.

AJ

AJ, I am good with understanding the details of how the system functions and fails. My statement you quoted was from several pages back where it was being tossed about to start shielding all the components or blocking transient RF from permeating into the antenna.

The serious downside in this entire topic and the Spyders system is that there are so many variable possibilities, it begins to become difficult to troubleshoot the failure without simply just replacing parts.

If we assume that, as has been mentioned, that a Spyder key can be rolled out of acceptable range of the rolling code by other devices acting upon it, then BRP has an issue with the key itself since when compared to auto makers this problem is not wide spread.

If we assume the DESS module is randomly failing, then the entire series of available part numbers has seen failures which would tend to indicate that maybe the DESS module is not the culprit in some cases unless it truly had a complete failure.

As has been mentioned, the key switch holds simply a coil and the same key switch was mentioned to be unchanged from previous years. So it appears that unless there is failure of the coil, and no doubt it could be intermittent, the one legacy part with no previous issues or documented failures until the 2014 series seems not a probable cause.

I do not have an answer.

[PMK]

Well, I had a wonderful 472 mile ride today. On the way home, I had the DESS error again. I simply took the key out, flipped it, and everything was fine. I still am going to get the replacement done, but these errors are not enough for me to give up on my spyer yet. I think what really needs to be posted is the "in the field fix" that can be done. I have had the error probably no less than 25-30 in the past year (my first time was the first sunday after Easter 2015) I remember that day, because I was going to drive the bike to church that morning, but after it wouldn't crank, I drove my mustang instead. On the way out I ran over one of the ferrel kittens that I was adopting (but that is another sad story). When I got home, I read on this site (somewhere) that the key was to discharge the system. This was done by disconnecting the hot cable and touching the negative post on the battery. After connecting everything backup, I was good. As I stated, I have had the situation to happen about 25-30 more times, but never had to discharge the system again, simply flip the key and possibly wait 10 minutes in my worst case. Now I just keep the tools on the bike to disconnect the battery, and also keep both keys if going further than 200 miles from home.
BTW, my first time happened at about 7k miles, now I have almost 14k miles on my 2014 RT SM6.

The quote was borrowed from another topic.

Early on it was mentioned to disconnect the battery and clear the ECM. This, if a viable solution, leads back to a defective ECM, the true master of the entire system, not a slave unit like the DESS module or key switch.

The true test, but not truly accurate since this does involve electronics is to find a machine that has a complete hard failure of the DESS system, remove the DESS and replace it with a new unit and no other changes. Then take the DESS module from the bike with the hard failure of the DESS module and see if it will cause a known good bike to fail.

Obviously no one here will have the means or attempt to try this.

[HVACR Guy]

Unrelated but related. I work on commercial rooftop heating/air conditioning equipment for a living for past 30 years. I've had a large brand new rooftop unit that after 2 weeks running perfect started to lock out on error 114. Unit has 150 different error codes! Main computer board message gives message "replace board". It's a $500 board and was covered under warranty and the manufacturer did not know what was causing failure. I just kept replacing the board each time it failed every other week or so. Finally found out that another Co. was having exact same problem with 6 brand new rooftops. They got VERY lucky one day when they had their voltage meter connected and when units indoor 575 volt motor started the meter instantly showed a spike of 1,200 volts. It threw the error code 114 and locked out unit. They found that the 575 volt wires to that motor were run alongside the low voltage 24 volt wires and were inducing the magnetic lines of flux EMF on to the low voltage wires going back to main board. They re-routed high voltage wires as far away as possible from low and problem solved. Long story but if we're grasping at straws I may as well throw in my 2 cents.

[larryd]

Do you have anything metal attached to the key when the error comes up, like a key ring or other key? If so, remove it. In a little experiment I ran last night a key ring and key number tag helped to create an error when I placed my Nissan key next to the Spyder key in the ignition.

Just the lone key...Nothing attached to the key at all...

[HVACR Guy]

Here's a video showing effects of cell phone near electronic fluke tester. Could having our phones in storage box below handlebars inches from ignition be the problem?

[Rick k]

I have not had a DESS error yet. However, I have been watching this post. For what it's worth, here’s my 2 cents.

An alternative BRP can incorporate into the Spyders ECM to prevent getting stranded with a DESS error is using a Personal Identification Number (PIN) number system in addition to the just the coded key. There is currently another major motorcycle manufacture that incorporates a PIN system in addition to their key fob.

This should be easy for BRP to issues a TSB to reprogram the ECM with an alternate PIN system in addition to the DESS system.

The PIN is a number that can be used to disarm the DESS in case an assigned fob, or in BRB’s case the coded key, is misplaced, fails or if the key’s chip cannot communicate because of electromagnetic interference.

A PIN is a five-digit number (1-9, no zeros).

With an assigned key present, a five digit PIN can be initially programed into ECM using a series of button presses on the RECC handlebar switch. Then when you get a DESS error, the PIN number can be re-entered using the RECC handlebar switch to allow the Spyder to start. (This is how the other manufacture’s system works)

This would still provide the Spyder with a theft deterrent system while not leaving anyone stranded because of a DESS error.

This other motorcycle manufacturer mentions electromagnetic interference with their DESS system in their owner’s manual. Here’s what they say.

“Electromagnetic Interference: Other electronic devices, power lines, or other electromagnetic sources can cause the Smart Security System to operate inconsistently. Move motorcycle at least 15 feet (5 m) from the spot of interference.”

If that doesn’t work then you can enter the PIN number using the handle bar buttons.

If another manufacturer is able to develop a system that alleviates electromagnetic interference and does not leave their customers stranded BRP should be able to also.

[larryd]

I have not had a DESS error yet. However, I have been watching this post. For what it's worth, here’s my 2 cents.

An alternative BRP can incorporate into the Spyders ECM to prevent getting stranded with a DESS error is using a Personal Identification Number (PIN) number system in addition to the just the coded key. There is currently another major motorcycle manufacture that incorporates a PIN system in addition to their key fob.

This should be easy for BRP to issues a TSB to reprogram the ECM with an alternate PIN system in addition to the DESS system.

The PIN is a number that can be used to disarm the DESS in case an assigned fob, or in BRB’s case the coded key, is misplaced, fails or if the key’s chip cannot communicate because of electromagnetic interference.

A PIN is a five-digit number (1-9, no zeros).

With an assigned key present, a five digit PIN can be initially programed into ECM using a series of button presses on the RECC handlebar switch. Then when you get a DESS error, the PIN number can be re-entered using the RECC handlebar switch to allow the Spyder to start. (This is how the other manufacture’s system works)

This would still provide the Spyder with a theft deterrent system while not leaving anyone stranded because of a DESS error.

This other motorcycle manufacturer mentions electromagnetic interference with their DESS system in their owner’s manual. Here’s what they say.

“Electromagnetic Interference: Other electronic devices, power lines, or other electromagnetic sources can cause the Smart Security System to operate inconsistently. Move motorcycle at least 15 feet (5 m) from the spot of interference.”

If that doesn’t work then you can enter the PIN number using the handle bar buttons.

If another manufacturer is able to develop a system that alleviates electromagnetic interference and does not leave their customers stranded BRP should be able to also.

First, You would need to get BRP to admit they have a problem...Then you'd need to get someone working on fixing it...(BRP told my dealer they are NOT working on fixing it, they do not have a problem after you get the 4916 module) and the problem is my fault, other chipped keys, cell phone or led lights...

It looks like it has finally stopped raining and I may get some riding time this week to try it without my other keys and cell phone...larryd

[cuznjohn]

i carry a fob in my pocket that my car seances and unlocks and starts key-less, and when i ride it is with me all the time, and have never had the problem. as far as brp goes, there is no rush for them to fix this problem, 1, it will cost them money, and 2, it is not something that can cause harm to the rider.

[Jheck]

http://www.brp.com/en-us/company/new...-police-united

this is interesting. 1 Adam 12 this is dispatch. Officer needs assistance at Corner of Elm and Maple, please respond. Dispatch this is 1 Adam 12, TELL THEM I'LL BE THERE IN A MINUTE!
I'VE GOT TO TAKE THE KEY OUT AND WALK AWAY! 30 MINUTES TOPS!

[Sam Mac]

Steve (BRP Doesn't Care)

[MikeT]

First, You would need to get BRP to admit they have a problem.

They ain't doing that, at least not for public consumption thru Customer Care. Maybe dealers are doing something on an individual basis?????

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

i carry a fob in my pocket that my car seances and unlocks and starts key-less, and when i ride it is with me all the time, and have never had the problem. as far as brp goes, there is no rush for them to fix this problem, 1, it will cost them money, and 2, it is not something that can cause harm to the rider.

[ Quote ]...." it is not something that can cause harm to the rider " ....well that really depends on where you are stranded and the circumstances......and from what has been posted on this Thread - - - the NON-REFUNDED Tow Charges can feed a family of FOUR for about month..............I consider this alone to be HARM.......jmho.......Mike

[robmorg]

Bypassing really isn't the answer. They need to figure out how to fix the problem.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

EXACTLY !!!

And the answer seems obvious... It wasn't until model year 2014 that there was a problem. Why not simply revert back to the original system, that worked fine, and reprogram the ECM to accommodate that? If BRP is not willing to follow such a simple plan as that due to the cost, then I think they are really being rather unethical about this - especially since they are about to enter the third model year with a faulty system.

Another thought is that I wonder if BRP is entirely aware of the liability risk in not addressing this issue in a more timely manor. For example, what if someone is out riding who has a medical problem that requires relatively quick access to medication. They could get stranded away from home due to this DESS, problem, which could potentially result in a fatality. And that scenario is not entirely improbable given the Spyder market demographics. Would BRP want to attempt to defend that wrongful death case in court? BRP seems to not care much about liability like that. IMO, they were VERY lucky, someone did not burn to death on a 2013 RT in the length of time it took them to correctly address that problem.

I am NOT bashing BRP here. I do believe they'll eventually fix this issue, as they did the 2013 heat issue. I'm just confused by their seeming lack of concern with respect to timeliness for issues like this. Seems to me that it would be less risky, and perhaps less expensive in the long run, to simply do whatever they need to do in order to permanently fix the problem and get it behind them.

[cuznjohn]

another thing they can do is come out with a alarm system that can replace the DESS module. it could be a plug and play device, and have a remote to operate it. but again, it will cost them money, and they won't do it

[PMK]

Several more failures reported this weekend on the FB group.

[Jheck]

Several more failures reported this weekend on the FB group.

What's the FB group?
never mind I just figured it out. Idon't do face book

[pitzerwm]

Its more than obvious that BRP could care less about their/our problems. They didn't fix the 2013 problem until the government put a gun to their head. I'm totally blown away that their fix actually worked.

Steve post what about every other month, the different problems that have been on going for years. Appantently, the DESS problem is on other BRP stuff.

What's with the few if any changes between the 14, 15, 16 a different paint combo?? That is certainly innovation. At least someone came up with the F3, but even that has old or new problems.

Look at all of the improvements that the wizards here have made over the years and has BRP incorporated any in the next year, I think not. Where else do you buy the top of the line vehicle and immediately need to spend a few grand to replace parts that should have been replaced years before? Like BajaRon's bar, laser alignment and shocks. Spyders might just a be a hobby for them. Maybe their whole business is a hobby.

[larryd]

Yesterday its two weeks since the fourth round of DESS errors....

Just talked to my dealer and he said "NO WORD from BRP....

The previous three failures took 3 weeks to get any type of action....LOOKS like we're right on track for another three weeks??? (if I'm lucky)

I plan to try and ride this Thurs. and/or Fri. without my chipped keys and cell phone in my pockets....

If this thing gets the DESS errors again this week I'm taking it back to the dealer and giving BRP four options...1 FIX IT....2 TURN OFF DESS....3 SHOW ME HOW ITS MY FAULT...4 BUY IT BACK....I AM SICK OF THE BS....larryd

[pitzerwm]

Ok, I have done a little research. To deactivate the DESS you/someone will need a MegaTech Key for their BUDS system. When you deactivate it, it erases the key codes where ever they are stored. If you want to re-activate the DESS, the keys will need to be reprogrammed into the bike. With software version 3.7.2 this can be done with your keys, no master key needed. (This is what is suppose to happen but hasn't been tested)

I'm still trying to find out about a pin# to over ride a DESS failure.