To Steve (BRPcare) about DESS issues

[IGETAROUND]

Al, even tho I'm not buying the " RFI " thing ( when it occurred to be - NONE of the CRITERIA was present ) ....I'm going to take your suggestion to wrap the MODULE........I can get my FRUNK OFF in 10 minutes or less - so that's not a problem.....I'm going to look into getting some LEAD FLASHING - it's very thin - they use it for " FLASHING " when a shingle roof meets a built chimney .......This DESS issue is SO .......Mike

Mike, This works for my patients:

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Mike, This works for my patients:

.....Al, I was a " COP " for 37 years we always had one around for emergencies ......You have no idea how many " Mentally STRESSED " people I calmed down by getting THEM to wear an aluminum foil cap........" It's the power of Positive Thinking Thing "......I'm not kidding ....Mike

[billybovine]

So then, to shield the system, are we assuming the incorrect RF is being read by the antenna which is within the keyed ignition switch, or are we now considering to shield all the wires and DESS module itself.

Unless we are having a serious super close proximity RF interference problem I would not expect anything to be induced into the wire harness or DESS module. AND if you shield the antenna, it will no longer work to read the reply from the key itself and / or the transponder function that triggers the key to emit the code will not happen as the triggering functioning will be blocked.

The comments by BRP about saturation of the key, what does that exactly mean. Is the key being triggered by another device? Is the ignition switch antenna over saturated and confused and with that unable to be smart enough to separate the good from the bad?

As I understand the system, the key has a digital code programmed into it. When the key is inserted into the ignition and powered, the ignition switch senses a key and acknowledges power has been applied. The ECM sees this and decides you wish to fire the engine. The ECM sends a signal to the DESS module and via key switch that passes through the antenna and tells the key to transpond the data stored on the key. The data sent by the key is then read by the DESS module and compared to known valid key numbers stored on the ECM.

Basically the master is the ECM and the DESS module and Key Switch are slaved units.

This is my understanding how it works.

When you turn the key on. The systems power up including the ECM and DESS. When the DESS powers up it sends pulsed DC current to the DESS Antenna. The DESS antenna is just a coil of wire in the shape of a donut around the barrel of the ignition switch. Think of it as the primary coil of a transformer. The key does not have a battery. So for it to work it gets it's power from the expanding or collapsing magnetic field from the DESS Antenna. There is a tiny coil of wire in the chip that creates the power for the chip. Think of it as the secondary coil in a transformer. The chip responds to the power created by transmitting, from what I read, a 32 digit code. There are billions of possible code combinations and for 2014 and later models thousands of possible codes this specific key could transmit. The DESS antenna picks up this transmission from the key and strips the carrier frequency from the code and sends it to the ECM. The ECM does the math and calculates if the code is a match to any of all the possible codes that could be sent by one of the keys programmed. If so the ECM allows the engine to start. Then for a unknown number of cycles that code will not be used again.

I am also puzzled by the term saturation in reference to the key. My best guess is there is too much power produced in the chip not allowing it to do anything.

[billybovine]

so i didn't get a answer, or i think i didn't. is this happening on the 15's and up, or does it happen to the 14's also. because as of today, i never had a problem with my 14 rt

The problem started for the 2014 models. That is when the vehicle immobilizer system was redesigned for a rolling code transponder in the key.

[garb55]

If RF signals are the cause of all this
The problem is easy to fix
Convince the entire population of North America to throw away all their devices that emit RF signals
Problem fixed

[PMK]

This is my understanding how it works.

When you turn the key on. The systems power up including the ECM and DESS. When the DESS powers up it sends pulsed DC current to the DESS Antenna. The DESS antenna is just a coil of wire in the shape of a donut around the barrel of the ignition switch. Think of it as the primary coil of a transformer. The key does not have a battery. So for it to work it gets it's power from the expanding or collapsing magnetic field from the DESS Antenna. There is a tiny coil of wire in the chip that creates the power for the chip. Think of it as the secondary coil in a transformer. The chip responds to the power created by transmitting, from what I read, a 32 digit code. There are billions of possible code combinations and for 2014 and later models thousands of possible codes this specific key could transmit. The DESS antenna picks up this transmission from the key and strips the carrier frequency from the code and sends it to the ECM. The ECM does the math and calculates if the code is a match to any of all the possible codes that could be sent by one of the keys programmed. If so the ECM allows the engine to start. Then for a unknown number of cycles that code will not be used again.

I am also puzzled by the term saturation in reference to the key. My best guess is there is too much power produced in the chip not allowing it to do anything.

More in depth to specific details than what I posted. I would agree this sounds pretty correct. Is it possible the frequency is stripped by the DESS module rather than the antenna, or could it be stripped by the ECM? If the DESS module is a 2 connector with 2 wires per connector, then the DESS is probably as you say a DC to pulsed DC only type unit.

Reading this, it kind of makes me wonder how transient RF is overcoming the antenna, if the machine is supposedly smart enough to pull the logic of the key code out.

In regards to the DESS module, if it failed and only supplied DC instead of pulsed DC then it would indicate a single item failure. If the antenna failed, which seems to be the DESS item within the key switch failed, then the key would not become excited, and / or the signal could not be read. Having a logic circuit in the key switch is possible but seems silly since the real on board computer is ultimately making the decision I would expect.

Then again, it is BRP and seems incredibly over complicated.

I have not read them closely yet, but I did notice some electrical checks in the maintenance manual.

[Jheck]

this is the most information I have found on the Honda neowing reverse trike. To be released 2017/18?looks like it is going to happen.http://www.hondaprokevin.com/neowing...rse-trike-bike. https://rideapart.com/articles/honda...nt-know-wanted

[PMK]

this is the most information I have found on the Honda neowing reverse trike. To be released 2017/18?looks like it is going to happen.http://www.hondaprokevin.com/neowing...rse-trike-bike

Yes, I have seen that page also. Hoping they offer a touring series also.

[Jheck]

Yes, I have seen that page also. Hoping they offer a touring series also.

Me to!

[PMK]

This is my understanding how it works.

When you turn the key on. The systems power up including the ECM and DESS. When the DESS powers up it sends pulsed DC current to the DESS Antenna. The DESS antenna is just a coil of wire in the shape of a donut around the barrel of the ignition switch. Think of it as the primary coil of a transformer. The key does not have a battery. So for it to work it gets it's power from the expanding or collapsing magnetic field from the DESS Antenna. There is a tiny coil of wire in the chip that creates the power for the chip. Think of it as the secondary coil in a transformer. The chip responds to the power created by transmitting, from what I read, a 32 digit code. There are billions of possible code combinations and for 2014 and later models thousands of possible codes this specific key could transmit. The DESS antenna picks up this transmission from the key and strips the carrier frequency from the code and sends it to the ECM. The ECM does the math and calculates if the code is a match to any of all the possible codes that could be sent by one of the keys programmed. If so the ECM allows the engine to start. Then for a unknown number of cycles that code will not be used again.

I am also puzzled by the term saturation in reference to the key. My best guess is there is too much power produced in the chip not allowing it to do anything.

Gave a quick look to the wiring schematic. The schematic shows a simple coil for the antenna, no logic circuits. All the checks listed, are to verify DESS module power input of 12v key on, <1v key off, and verify grounds of items and then verify grounds of the entire circuit. No checks posted on the exciter output to the antenna in the switch.

Want to add, I incorrectly stated the DESS module is 4 wire, it is in fact 5 wire. Fused feed I believe, two wires to the antenna, and two wires to the ECM, possibly case grounded also.

Next time the frunk is removed, I will clean and preserve a good ground. Same for the ECM.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

The problem started for the 2014 models. That is when the vehicle immobilizer system was redesigned for a rolling code transponder in the key.

Billy you seem to have a very good grasp on this topic...soooooooo, did you read about what Paul ( PMK ) suggested ( a few posts back ) to use to wrap the MODULE. Do you think it will have any effect --- positive or possibly NEGATIVE ??????.....Thanks ......Mike

[billybovine]

Gave a quick look to the wiring schematic. The schematic shows a simple coil for the antenna, no logic circuits. All the checks listed, are to verify DESS module power input of 12v key on, <1v key off, and verify grounds of items and then verify grounds of the entire circuit. No checks posted on the exciter output to the antenna in the switch.

Want to add, I incorrectly stated the DESS module is 4 wire, it is in fact 5 wire. Fused feed I believe, two wires to the antenna, and two wires to the ECM, possibly case grounded also.

Next time the frunk is removed, I will clean and preserve a good ground. Same for the ECM.

That's correct the DESS antenna is nothing but a coil of wire. Most likely failure mode if any is a break in the wire. So a simple continuity test with an ohmmeter can tell you if it's good or bad. Not much to go wrong there. That is the only part of the ignition switch assembly that has anything to do with the immobilizer system. It appears to be the same as in pre 2014 models that are reasonably trouble free. I would be extremely surprised if the root cause has anything to do with the ignition switch.

[billybovine]

Billy you seem to have a very good grasp on this topic...soooooooo, did you read about what Paul ( PMK ) suggested ( a few posts back ) to use to wrap the MODULE. Do you think it will have any effect --- positive or possibly NEGATIVE ??????.....Thanks ......Mike

I have a gut feel that it would not help shielding the DESS module, but can't know that for sure. I don't think it would cause any harm either.

[ataDude]

...I'd also guess that BRP will not reply, they are hoping that this and the other thread just become inactive and that nobody notices. "Just shut up and hope they go away".

You're right but for the wrong reason. There is not a company anywhere that will admit liability publicly, like on this form. Period.

[jaherbst]

I would personally start by getting my key reprogrammed as a previous poster did. No problems since. I am sure everyone is aware by now that the key was changed in 2014 and previous keys were some times partially programmed but hardly worked. I know several who bought aftermarket keys for use or a spare and they were not the same quality as the BRP key and may be causing this problem.

When I bought my 2014 the dealer had lost the spare key. Coyote power sports in Bourne, TX tried over and over to program an in stock key and were unsuccessful. Ride now tried the same thing--same results. After several calls to the head shed it became a surprise that the keys had changed in 2014 and were not interchangeable. Factory sent the proper key and all is well.

During all this a request to change the entire ignition system ($1300) was considered. No cost to me of course. Can you believe it?

Morale of this informative but less cared about story is check your keys first or get the dealer to reprogram it before going ballistically nuts and bolts.

I know a lot of you bought aftermarket spare keys and they may be the problem. Mama said " you usually get what you pay for" and cheaper is usually not as good. With one exception. Yesterday I bought some Rabbit and Deer repellant to protect some new plants. This was at a high end Nursery and cost $20. Ten minutes later I stopped at Lowes and saw the same thing and same amount for $12.36. Oh well, life goes on and the rabbits are still eating my plants.

Jack

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

More in depth to specific details than what I posted. I would agree this sounds pretty correct. Is it possible the frequency is stripped by the DESS module rather than the antenna, or could it be stripped by the ECM? If the DESS module is a 2 connector with 2 wires per connector, then the DESS is probably as you say a DC to pulsed DC only type unit.

Reading this, it kind of makes me wonder how transient RF is overcoming the antenna, if the machine is supposedly smart enough to pull the logic of the key code out.

In regards to the DESS module, if it failed and only supplied DC instead of pulsed DC then it would indicate a single item failure. If the antenna failed, which seems to be the DESS item within the key switch failed, then the key would not become excited, and / or the signal could not be read. Having a logic circuit in the key switch is possible but seems silly since the real on board computer is ultimately making the decision I would expect.

Then again, it is BRP and seems incredibly over complicated.

I have not read them closely yet, but I did notice some electrical checks in the maintenance manual.

As I understand it the only way transient RF will cause a problem is if it is carrying with it digital data that gets mixed in with the digital data stream being read from the key, or somehow causes the digital data stream from the key to stumble.

The antenna serves two distinct purposes. First it creates an electromagnetic field, like Billy explains, that is rising and falling. A DC pulse will do this. That rising and falling magnetic field induces a voltage in a coil in the key much the same as the transformer outside your house. That coil and the circuit tied to it then becomes a power supply to the key circuitry. The transmitting portion of the key chip then transmits a stream of numbers which the antenna picks up and sends to the DESS module. The antenna, in this mode, receives and captures the radio signal from the key. Think of it kind of like the rabbit ears on your old style TV. I'm guessing the DESS looks at the data stream and verifies that the data is good. It isn't going to know if the data is valid, only that it is formatted correctly, has the correct number of numbers, and that those numbers look legitimate.

The DESS sends those numbers to the ECM. The ECM has stored in it the serial number of the key and a table of numbers, called the rolling codes table. The rolling codes table is different for every key. The ECM looks at the rolling code coming from the key. If it is the next one in the sequence, or only a few later, for one of the stored keys, it gives the OK to start. The key and the ECM traverse the table of rolling codes one a time in the forward direction, and keep track of which code was the last one used. If it gets a rolling code that is earlier in the table than the last one used, it will reject it as being invalid. I'm sure the reason BRP suggests turning the key on and off repeatedly when the DESS occurs is to force the key to move to a later number in the table and maybe it will be close enough to the last used code to make the ECM happy.

I'll offer a some speculation here. One is your key somehow or another is getting into an electromagnetic field that activates the chip in it and it moves along in the rolling code table so far that the next time you turn on the Spyder, the code it sends it so far away from the last one the ECM used that it is seen as invalid. Another speculation is that the two keys you have have code tables where some of the codes are the same in both keys. If you use a different key maybe the code it sends is behind the last one the ECM used from the other key. This will cause the ECM to reject the key. Or, if two keys have a common rolling code in their tables the ECM won't know which key is in the ignition and throws an error. Another possibility is the key chip is faulty and does not traverse the code table correctly. This is unlikely, but possible.

A suggestion I offer to whoever is experiencing DESS failures. Before you have the DESS module or antenna replaced have the dealer cut you brand new keys and program them into the ECM. Delete the old keys. I don't recall seeing anyone mentioning that one of the attempted fixes was to replace the keys first. Reprogramming the keys with BUDS will do nothing to solve the problem. Why? Because all that programming does is tell the ECM to read the key and store the codes from it. If the key is defective, i.e., has a malfunctioning chip in it, reprogramming does nothing to it.

For the record, my 2014 RTS, sold new in August 2014, now has 5400 miles on it. I have not experienced a DESS error, except those I created by having a second key next to the one in the ignition.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I would personally start by getting my key reprogrammed as a previous poster did. No problems since. I am sure everyone is aware by now that the key was changed in 2014 and previous keys were some times partially programmed but hardly worked. I know several who bought aftermarket keys for use or a spare and they were not the same quality as the BRP key and may be causing this problem.

When I bought my 2014 the dealer had lost the spare key. Coyote power sports in Bourne, TX tried over and over to program an in stock key and were unsuccessful. Ride now tried the same thing--same results. After several calls to the head shed it became a surprise that the keys had changed in 2014 and were not interchangeable. Factory sent the proper key and all is well.

During all this a request to change the entire ignition system ($1300) was considered. No cost to me of course. Can you believe it?

Morale of this informative but less cared about story is check your keys first or get the dealer to reprogram it before going ballistically nuts and bolts.

I know a lot of you bought aftermarket spare keys and they may be the problem. Mama said " you usually get what you pay for" and cheaper is usually not as good. With one exception. Yesterday I bought some Rabbit and Deer repellant to protect some new plants. This was at a high end Nursery and cost $20. Ten minutes later I stopped at Lowes and saw the same thing and same amount for $12.36. Oh well, life goes on and the rabbits are still eating my plants.

Jack

Well ...Deanna777 ( one of the first with this issue ) had the re-program thing done back in 2015.....a month later She needed a NEW MODULE to fix this issue again.......I don't think there is a FIX YET......jmho....Mike

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I have a gut feel that it would not help shielding the DESS module, but can't know that for sure. I don't think it would cause any harm either.

.Sorry if you covered this already .....but can the RFI signals be STOPPED by ANYTHING at all.??????....and /or is it worth it to even try ??????.................Mike

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

.Sorry if you covered this already .....but can the RFI signals be STOPPED by ANYTHING at all.??????....and /or is it worth it to even try ??????.................Mike

I believe steel is one of the best. Think in terms of magnetic attraction, not electrical conductivity.

One idea I'll toss out. Get a steel soup can and set it over the top of the key before turning the ignition on. You'll have to rig some sort of catch or holder inside to grab the key and turn it. I'm thinking this might do two things. One is confine the radio waves between the key and antenna so they will be seen as more intense by the antenna, and two help shield the antenna from outside radio waves.

[Pineywoods36]

OK I just read all 7 pages of this thread and 15 pages of another thread and I am not looking to jynks myself here as I have a 2014 with 6500 miles on it and have not seen the D.E.S.S. error. Has anyone had an issue once they changed to the new model D.E.S.S 71004916. I like to be proactive and from all the issues seen here there is obvioulsy an issue that has certian odds of happening and if replacing the $100.00 module would prevent me from ending up stranded who knows where I will just replace the module.

The next question is that just replacing the D.E.S.S module does not require replacing keys is this true?

I work in the security industry and although not as detailed as IdahoMntSpyder explaination the D.E.S.S works off the same type of technology as card access cards (not the magnetic strip kind) the card (key) has an antenna or chip in it with a programmed code and the reader antenna excites or energizes the chip reading the encoded number and allowing access, the biggest problems we see with this technology is something effects the chip RF/EMF or the likes, or the signal power from the reader is not strong enough. Sure you could get a broken antenna if the card is bent or someting to that effect. If you stay at a hotel and they tell you not to put your room card in the same pocket as your phone it is because the RF from the phone can effect the antenna.

I am wondering what the rate of falure is and if it is great enough why a recall is not issued. Maybe we will find out in 2017....... in the mean time how many of us Ryders will end up stranded?

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

The next question is that just replacing the D.E.S.S module does not require replacing keys is this true?

Correct.

[Bumble_B]

OK I just read all 7 pages of this thread and 15 pages of another thread and I am not looking to jynks myself here as I have a 2014 with 6500 miles on it and have not seen the D.E.S.S. error. Has anyone had an issue once they changed to the new model D.E.S.S 71004916. I like to be proactive and from all the issues seen here there is obvioulsy an issue that has certian odds of happening and if replacing the $100.00 module would prevent me from ending up stranded who knows where I will just replace the module.

The next question is that just replacing the D.E.S.S module does not require replacing keys is this true?

I work in the security industry and although not as detailed as IdahoMntSpyder explaination the D.E.S.S works off the same type of technology as card access cards (not the magnetic strip kind) the card (key) has an antenna or chip in it with a programmed code and the reader antenna excites or energizes the chip reading the encoded number and allowing access, the biggest problems we see with this technology is something effects the chip RF/EMF or the likes, or the signal power from the reader is not strong enough. Sure you could get a broken antenna if the card is bent or someting to that effect. If you stay at a hotel and they tell you not to put your room card in the same pocket as your phone it is because the RF from the phone can effect the antenna.

I am wondering what the rate of falure is and if it is great enough why a recall is not issued. Maybe we will find out in 2017....... in the mean time how many of us Ryders will end up stranded?

We had the 4916 module installed on 1/4/16 at 4,400 miles after several DESS dash messages. Dealer did not list any key reprogramming and no other parts were listed on the R.O. As of today, at 5500 miles, we have had one episode where it was a no start. Same DESS message. The only difference was that the bike was still in the garage and had not been started in several days. Previously, all the no starts were on highway trips where we stopped for fuel and drink. In all the instances we removed the key and walked away from bike and it did start and run fine.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

We had the 4916 module installed on 1/4/16 at 4,400 miles after several DESS dash messages. Dealer did not list any key reprogramming and no other parts were listed on the R.O. As of today, at 5500 miles, we have had one episode where it was a no start. Same DESS message. The only difference was that the bike was still in the garage and had not been started in several days. Previously, all the no starts were on highway trips where we stopped for fuel and drink. In all the instances we removed the key and walked away from bike and it did start and run fine.

Well there you have it .....Part # 4916 isn't any better than all the other " FIXES " BRP has come up with ......................Mike

[Deanna777]

I would personally start by getting my key reprogrammed as a previous poster did. No problems since. I am sure everyone is aware by now that the key was changed in 2014 and previous keys were some times partially programmed but hardly worked. I know several who bought aftermarket keys for use or a spare and they were not the same quality as the BRP key and may be causing this problem.

When I bought my 2014 the dealer had lost the spare key. Coyote power sports in Bourne, TX tried over and over to program an in stock key and were unsuccessful. Ride now tried the same thing--same results. After several calls to the head shed it became a surprise that the keys had changed in 2014 and were not interchangeable. Factory sent the proper key and all is well.

During all this a request to change the entire ignition system ($1300) was considered. No cost to me of course. Can you believe it?

Morale of this informative but less cared about story is check your keys first or get the dealer to reprogram it before going ballistically nuts and bolts.

I know a lot of you bought aftermarket spare keys and they may be the problem. Mama said " you usually get what you pay for" and cheaper is usually not as good. With one exception. Yesterday I bought some Rabbit and Deer repellant to protect some new plants. This was at a high end Nursery and cost $20. Ten minutes later I stopped at Lowes and saw the same thing and same amount for $12.36. Oh well, life goes on and the rabbits are still eating my plants.

Jack

Jack, I had my keys reprogramed and I have not had the D.E.S.S. error show up. ( the keys were reprogrammed on Aug. 28th, 2015) Also the D.E.S.S. module changed twice ( in July 14, 2015 and on Aug. 28th,2015) D.E.S.S MODULE part # 71004190 both times that I had it done. Deanna

[Deanna777]

Well ...Deanna777 ( one of the first with this issue ) had the re-program thing done back in 2015.....a month later She needed a NEW MODULE to fix this issue again.......I don't think there is a FIX YET......jmho....Mike

Part # for the D.E.S.S Module is 710004190, and I had the Switch replaced/and reprogrammed part # 710004413, I have not had the D.E.S.S. error show up yet! If I do I will post on my thread. Deanna