Non laser alignment

[Peter Aawen]

'Total Toe' generally refers to the total of left & right toe, so it's for BOTH, not just per side. There are a few instances (usually on a race track or already 'damaged' vehicle) where the side to side values may need to be different in order to give you the same Total Toe for straight tracking & good handling - your Spyder won't be one of them!!

Good Luck!

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

What Paul ( PMK ) said. And He's a suspension expert .....imho anyway ......Mike

[Cruzr Joe]

I personally think the best person to ask is Lamont.

Chris

or Harvey (Spyderpops) or Ann (Squared Away alignments)

They have done hundreds of these and can answer any of your questions.

Cruzr Joe

[Sam Mac]

These topics on alignment are getting to be as good as oil topics and tire topics.

As Jack stated...do not over think it and get it properly aligned.

Anyone that thinks a Spyder steering geometry is closely resembling a performance design or even a good design needs to be drug tested.

The design is not at all like any car. A car modern car with IFS could never be sold with a design like the Spyders. If you have a look, notice haw far inboard the tie rod ends are. There are no idler arms, or a long steering rack to properly position the inboard tie rod end to minimize bump steer.

Sadly, bump steer happens 100% of the time as you ride. Even going straight. One spec for every rider will not give a perfect alignment, but it sure is close enough. Make a corner and the vehicle leans, the steering bellcrank adds Ackerman Effect. Regardless, none of it is ideal.

Add fuel, add or remove luggage, change rider weight, the toe setting is changed.

Accelerate and the wheels toe in, hit the brakes they toe out. Hit a bump and one wheel toes out.

The front wheels are wagging like a dogs tail.

Can Am has provided a toe chart and there are certain baseline settings. One is proper ride height measured at a certain point. Second is, the toe is set to a parameter based on the vehicles load.

Is the laser setup more accurate, done correctly it better be. You are projecting the a long ways in front of the vehicle making it easy to see small increments. Can you obtain adequate results measuring with toe sticks at the tires, yes.

Regardless of the method, ideally, with the vehicle loaded, the toe should be 0 according to Can Am. Sadly, this may be less than ideal if you ride a lot of curves where body lean will create toe out and make the vehicle more unpredictable.

Take it to someone that does alignments, has experience, and stands by their work.

PK

Amen ! Having setup plenty of racecars you nailed it! I'm surprised no one has developed adjustable caster, camber and bump steer for these things. Looks like all you can do is toe unless I'm missing something. My other issue is every race car I've set up we had the driver with all of his gear sitting in the seat yet it seems as though the people doing the alignments are doing it unloaded? I have to wonder how much it changes between loaded and unloaded? Thoughts from a Spyder New Guy.

[arntufun]

Too much "nutzies and boltzies" here! Get the thing Lazer Aligned and get on with your life. Your a typical engineer Carl. And Annette you look "just marvelous" on that Spyder. Life is to short to start working about mm. Call Ann and Joe.

Jack

[BajaRon]

One point I didn't cover, concerning the sway bar. All the following is just my opinion.
Spyder steering geometry is not different than that used in autos for the last 60+ years. There are no special physics involved.

Yes, adding the aftermarket sway bar will not change the STATIC alignment.

However, alignment changes with suppension deflection. Acceleration tends to toe out. Loading affects toe. Body roll affects toe. Bump steer affects toe.

Using a phrase from spydercomfort's page, I am working to mitigate "wandering or darting". And, of course, suspension deflection control as well as static alignment are the important issues.

One of the things I'm looking at doing is showing up for the static alignment with 7ea - 60 lb sandbags. I want the suppension set up for 2up, 20 lbs gear. If the vendor doesn't mind taking the time, I'd like to see the changes in static alignment due to loading. There is one guy (Australia) that says it can. I like his site. He has about the best information so far.

You are exactly right that body lean and loading will affect suspension deflection and thus alignment. This is one advantage of the sway bar upgrade. Less lean means a lot more than just a better feel. It means your alignment stays closer to ideal and gives you better tracking around corners. The harder/faster the corner, the more improvement you get.

An alignment is done at a certain ride height. Change ride height and you change suspension geometry and alignment. But this goes both ways.

If you get the alignment done fully loaded and 2-up, then you may be wandering around when lightly loaded, 1-up. There is a better way to approach the problem of weight distribution and loading changes throwing your alignment off the mark regardless of how your Syder is loaded. And that is to maintain the original ride height by making the front suspension adjustable.

So, you get your uber laser alignment done at a certain ride height (preferably lightly loaded, 1-up). Measure the ride height at the front. Then load your Spyder down as much as you like! Because you can bring everything back to the original geometry with the coil spring adjusters. Not only will this give you a lot more front ground clearance when loaded. But also a better, more controlled and stable ride. Especially in cross winds or when cornering.

Of course when you get where you're going and dump all that baggage into the hotel room. You back off your adjusters to give you a nice smooth ride while still maintaining the original ride height and front end geometry.

[BajaRon]

The passenger has more effect on the headlight aim than front suspension and toe in when going straight.

PK

True. Admittedly there are a lot of variables. But there is also a fair amount of leeway.

But usually, you are not just putting a 2nd rider on the Spyder without loading the frunk. And you have the air adjust on most Spyders to compensate for additional weight in the rear.

[jcthorne]

Bless you. You're actually addressing my question The first in 10+ posts.

The phrasing you are using is exactly what has me stalled. Hopefully you can rephrase and help me out.

"This is 0.125" across the 15" wheel. Approx 3mm total toe." It is the word "total" that stalls me

It would be 1.5mm on each wheel. Still have no idea how you plan to measure this with any degree of accuracy.

[MouthPiece]

or Harvey (Spyderpops) or Ann (Squared Away alignments)

They have done hundreds of these and can answer any of your questions.

Cruzr Joe

They've actually perfected the method over time.

Chris

[murphybrown]

OK, I called one of the local dealers to price the Outlaw Laser Alignment and they quoted me $185 to do it!!! Just sounds "Extreme"ly high compared to what I've been reading and seeing on SL's.

Should I do it?

Next, the cost to install the Baja Ron sway bar would be $195 or 1.5-hours of time (based on the tech). That's $130/hour for labor...that too sounds high.

Should I just work on figuring out a way to elevate/lift the spyder and install it myself?

And I am solution oriented (and snowed in from Spyder ryding..so SL and maps get my free time {warning I have lots of it!!}....so here you go...plan on attending Spyderfest 2016...contact Ann & Joe Meyer of Squared Away and schedule now to get the laser alignment...they are the best and they are #1 IMHO and will be busy busy at SF...Also get them or Spyderpops to put on that BajaRon Swaybar...2 musts to ramp up the enjoyment of ryding...Merry Christmas and Santa is for real. I BELIEVE...

[iceworm]

It would be 1.5mm on each wheel. Still have no idea how you plan to measure this with any degree of accuracy.

jc -
Thanks for your response.
Please believe me: How I would measure this or if I am planning to measure this, was never part of my discussion. I am simply seeking a clear understanding of published specs. Apparently (to me anyway) I did not do very well expressing this.

Considering I have spent the last 50 years dealing with all things mechanical and electrical, I am rarely this dense. Yes, sometimes I am, but rarely.

Yes, from your previous post, I was (still am) pretty certain I could translate too: With steering centered, 1.5mm toe in, as measured across each 15" wheel to a vehicle centerline, giving 3mm total when measured clear across between the wheels.

Here is the part where I do not have a clear understanding.
For published specs, not casual conversation, for example, Brp 0 - .5mm, or others that do alignments saying 1.5mm - 3mm; is this measured across each wheel to a vehicle centerline?

Yes, I understand this "vehicle centerline" is a mythical math construct. I couldn't think of any better way to describe the measurement.

I know this is way too long. I'm trying to be accurate about what I'm looking to learn.

[iceworm]

or Harvey (Spyderpops) or Ann (Squared Away alignments)

They have done hundreds of these and can answer any of your questions.

Cruzr Joe

Joe and the others that recommended I call someone that does alignments:
Yes, I figured out that asking here hasn't worked so far.

For all those that have suggested/recommended getting an alignment done by a competent vendor:
I will gently say, that wasn't the question. However, yes, that will likely be my plan - if/when it becomes available. My comments in the op about the local vendor and a mechanical alignment were in response to a previous thread where a poster suggested I contact the local vendor.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

jc -
Thanks for your response.
Please believe me: How I would measure this or if I am planning to measure this, was never part of my discussion. I am simply seeking a clear understanding of published specs. Apparently (to me anyway) I did not do very well expressing this.

Considering I have spent the last 50 years dealing with all things mechanical and electrical, I am rarely this dense. Yes, sometimes I am, but rarely.

Yes, from your previous post, I was (still am) pretty certain I could translate too: With steering centered, 1.5mm toe in, as measured across each 15" wheel to a vehicle centerline, giving 3mm total when measured clear across between the wheels.

Here is the part where I do not have a clear understanding.
For published specs, not casual conversation, for example, Brp 0 - .5mm, or others that do alignments saying 1.5mm - 3mm; is this measured across each wheel to a vehicle centerline?

Yes, I understand this "vehicle centerline" is a mythical math construct. I couldn't think of any better way to describe the measurement.

I know this is way too long. I'm trying to be accurate about what I'm looking to learn.

....................CONTACT.....BRP.....FOR .....

[iceworm]

....................CONTACT.....BRP.....FOR .....

Yes you are beating a dead horse. Perhaps you could read post 41.

[BajaRon]

jc -
Thanks for your response.
Please believe me: How I would measure this or if I am planning to measure this, was never part of my discussion. I am simply seeking a clear understanding of published specs. Apparently (to me anyway) I did not do very well expressing this.

Considering I have spent the last 50 years dealing with all things mechanical and electrical, I am rarely this dense. Yes, sometimes I am, but rarely.

Yes, from your previous post, I was (still am) pretty certain I could translate too: With steering centered, 1.5mm toe in, as measured across each 15" wheel to a vehicle centerline, giving 3mm total when measured clear across between the wheels.

Here is the part where I do not have a clear understanding.
For published specs, not casual conversation, for example, Brp 0 - .5mm, or others that do alignments saying 1.5mm - 3mm; is this measured across each wheel to a vehicle centerline?

Yes, I understand this "vehicle centerline" is a mythical math construct. I couldn't think of any better way to describe the measurement.

I know this is way too long. I'm trying to be accurate about what I'm looking to learn.

'Vehicle Centerline' is really the foundational crux of the matter. BRP uses the frame. But this proves to be a difficult and error prone method. Having done a few I would say it is near impossible to get an accurate alignment this way.

The reason is, you're not riding the frame. Laser alignments use the rear tire as 'Centerline'. This bypasses any anomalies in the frame/suspension and allows for a much higher degree of accuracy on a vehicle that is very sensitive to alignment. There is more to a laser alignment than this, of course. But starting at the right point is a big step toward ending up with the right adjustment.

[iceworm]

Ron
thanks. Had most all that - okay, had all of that. Yes, considered using the term "rear wheel fore and aft centerline" instead of "vehicle centerline". Just needed a term to show the relationship.


Jumping subjects a bit. For all y'all:

As long as I have already kicked the hornets nest, what think y'all about this guy
http://www.gospyder.net/spyderwheels.html

Just a suggestion: After the first 20 or so posts on BAD IDEA, STOOOPID, GET A REAL ALIGNMENT comments, maybe a technical discussion concerning his methodology would be in order. I realize this may well be considered odd and way past reasonable ...... Just sayin

No, I'm not planning on doing this .... Not today anyway, or tomorrow, or next week. Next month or next year are to far away to speculate. Quien sabe?

[iceworm]

Responding to pk's post
Yes, meets my understanding. I recall working on a high school shop truck (50 years ago). The frame was bent far enough you could see it was crabbed going down the road. The truck centerline did not match with the direction of travel. As I recall we spent a lot of time going through the alignment

[Gray Ghost]

As I understand, the Brp spec of 0-.5mm is each side, giving 1mm total. The after market alignment max spec of 3mm would give 6mm total, about 1/4" (.243 actually). So, the specs discussed, 1.5mm - 3mm, that is each side, isn't it? From what I have read that would make the most sense.

The 2013 and 2014 service manuals gives BRP specs (non-ROLO style) as being 0 mm +/- 5 mm (0" +/- .2 in). That is the sum of both sides measured over 6 ft.

To compare the two standards, BRP spec is between 10 mm toe-out to 10 mm toe-in at 12 ft.

As long as I have already kicked the hornets nest, what think y'all about this guy
http://www.gospyder.net/spyderwheels.html

When he describes the "box" he states that it is 5 times the wheel diameter. It is actually 10 times the wheel diameter.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

jc -
Thanks for your response.
Please believe me: How I would measure this or if I am planning to measure this, was never part of my discussion. I am simply seeking a clear understanding of published specs. Apparently (to me anyway) I did not do very well expressing this.

Considering I have spent the last 50 years dealing with all things mechanical and electrical, I am rarely this dense. Yes, sometimes I am, but rarely.

Yes, from your previous post, I was (still am) pretty certain I could translate too: With steering centered, 1.5mm toe in, as measured across each 15" wheel to a vehicle centerline, giving 3mm total when measured clear across between the wheels.

Here is the part where I do not have a clear understanding.
For published specs, not casual conversation, for example, Brp 0 - .5mm, or others that do alignments saying 1.5mm - 3mm; is this measured across each wheel to a vehicle centerline?

Yes, I understand this "vehicle centerline" is a mythical math construct. I couldn't think of any better way to describe the measurement.

I know this is way too long. I'm trying to be accurate about what I'm looking to learn.

In a nutshell this is what is in the service manual for the 2013 RT. You lock the pitman so the steering cannot move. You clamp a 6' long straight edge to the frame so that it is centered with respect to an imaginary line between the wheel centers, 3' both front and rear. You put a carpenter's magnetic laser level on the brake disk. Measure the distance from the end of the straight edge to the laser beam, both front and rear of the wheel. Do 3 times rotating the rotor 1/3 each time. Average the front readings, average the rear readings, and find the difference, rear - front. Repeat for the the other side of bike. Add the two differences, paying mind to positive and negative readings. The spec for the total of those differences is +/- 5 mm. In other words, the spec allows the wheels to be toed in or toed out. If the left side front/rear difference is 0", then the right side difference can be up to +/- 5 mm. Note the 5 mm number is over a 6 foot distance. That would be +/- 1.04 mm front to rear on a 15" wheel, total between left and right.

The big shortcoming with the factory method is you have to remove the wheels, fenders, and frunk, and you use a tape measure to make the measurements. Tape measures are not real accurate, not because of marking deficiencies, but because of their flexibility and the difficulty of reading them accurately, especially when you're looking for differences in the 1/64ths of an inch range.

This help you any?

[Omcge]

It would be 1.5mm on each wheel. Still have no idea how you plan to measure this with any degree of accuracy.

I had both my spyders laser aligned and was told that both were in spec and didn't need anything.
My 13 RT was pulling to the right a little even when in the left lane. I made the tool listed below and checked my toe and it was toed out 3/16". I adjusted the right tie rod till I had 3/16 " toe in and now it's perfect.
Someone else had posted this, I don't know who it was.

[jcthorne]

I had both my spyders laser aligned and was told that both were in spec and didn't need anything.
My 13 RT was pulling to the right a little even when in the left lane. I made the tool listed below and checked my toe and it was toed out 3/16". I adjusted the right tie rod till I had 3/16 " toe in and now it's perfect.
Someone else had posted this, I don't know who it was.

If your bikes were laser aligned and IF they were both toed out and pulling to the right, whomever 'laser aligned' them did not have any idea what they were doing. In your defense, many CanAm dealers THINK what the factory manual spells out for alignment is a laser alignment. Its NOT a ROLO Laser Alignment.

[BajaRon]

Laser isn't a silver bullet. If the person using it doesn't know what they are doing it's no better than guessing with any other method.

[ARtraveler]

Have a local dealer that still likes the "2 x 4" alignment method. To much of an investment to go laser.

No other choice than to succumb when I needed it done on the 2011.

Two months later we met up with Ann and Joe from Squared Away. The said it was one of the most mis-aligned machines that they had ever seen.

Did the laser alignment on both my machines. They run like they are on a steel track and felt like new machines. Big difference when you do not have to "fight" the machine.