DESS Key code again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gmctech]

My buddy had a 2018 out for the weekend to test drive... guess what? it went back on a tow truck! 772 km on it, parked it overnight at a resort we were all staying at (20 some bikes) and the next morning CHECK KEY error.... needless to say he was spun off into a new dimension of pissed off, especially when the Honda guys, the Kawi guy (that's me) and the Harley guys were all able to finish our ride and his tester messed in the bed. In the very short future I will be offering (for a reasonable price) DESS deactivation to any and all that never want to experience this stupid UNFIXED engineering flaw; this deactivation will be good for all BRP products..... I'm an automotive Red Seal GM Grand Master Technician with SET (specialized electrical training/certification) so I'm pretty sure if I couldn't get it running nobody could... I even tried a redundant ground ESD/EMI drain wire to the casing of the ignition switch housing in case there was a static charge in the pickup coil all to no avail.

I do A LOT of work on local Spyders... I'm in no way shape or form crapping on them... I'm just pointing out the cold hard obvious truth... they're actually a great bike except for this potentially hazardous flaw. Imagine getting caught somewhere on your Spyder or quad and extreme weather is barrelling down on you, and you're not prepared for it or there's some other life-threatening situation rapidly deteriorating (like an angry bear hot on your heels) and you hop on your ride only to experience CHECK KEY.... funny that my bikes don't have any security like this, so I put on a simple $30 security systems and it is just as effective or actually even more effective than the DESS as my bike starts to scream bloody murder if you so much as look at it wrong and my security system cuts out the fuel injectors and spark; whereas a set of side cutters and your Spyder is quietly being pushed into a trailer and carted away even with DESS working. BRP REALLY needs to do as Ducati, Harley, and Indian do and provide a means for a quick PIN code input and you're up and running (but I guess that would take away from the thousands of dollars of so-called fixes they get to sell you outside of warranty) or give you the option as it's your property to damn well deactivate it!

Another one of my Spyder customers just spent $4500 getting this "fixed" on his Spyder that was 28 days outside of warranty, and guess what, he called up the other day saying he had the key error AGAIN (he had the DESS module, the ignition switch, and the cluster replaced by a dealer I've never dealt with in a different province). I know two Spyder owners who are now getting so fed up with this situation and water intrusion issues in fuse boxes etc. etc... that they are actively looking for really nice used GL1800 Goldwings and will be having me install the Sturgis R18 kit on them.... The dealer they bought their spyders from is AWESOME, FLAT OUT AWESOME, but BRP corporate are a bunch of arrogant jerks at best (well that's been our experience) .... end rant!

One last word of advice is if you experience the CHECK KEY error IT WILL LEAVE YOU STRANDED at some point.... the fiddling with the key, rapid ignition cycling, removing the ground for a period of time etc etc is all snake oil remedies and placebo effect... if your bike starts after one of those it's pure coincidence... we worked on this Spyder for well over an hour and tried everything short of sprinkling holy water on it and it still left on a flat deck.

[gmctech]

From everything I know about DESS (and this is just a little more than most ) ..... I have not heard of any extra electrical stuff being an issue..... The DESS module interacts with the chip in the ignition switch ..... Some here have had to get an ignition switch in conjunction with the module ..... I didn't but it isn't clear in the minds at BRP EXACTLY what causes the DESS failure...... there have been 4 different modules since 2014 ...... IMHO some engineer decided to fix a non-existent problem ..... the 2009 to 2013 didn't have a problem .... then the module was changed and BRP has problems up the WaZoo .... go figure ... Mike

Good afternoon.... I thought I'd chime in here with some personal experience. I've have had two times where accessories 100% interfered with the factory DESS to the point it initiated no start conditions. First was on a New BRP snowmobile and I had installed an auxilliary RCA style plug for power for heated gloves too close to the DESS knob... moved it to the other side of the sled and never had another issue, problem solved.... Second was on a 2011 Spyder RT Limited that I had installed AFTERMARKET HID headlights and fog lights, and we were getting a DESS induced intermitent no start.... re-routed all the wiring, added relays for every light, and installed EMI drain wires on the HID relay harnesses and that issue was resolved permanently. Just some food for thought from personal experience that there are some very weird, isolated incidents that can induce DESS malfunctions and unintended DESS activation and no starts.

[gmctech]

I've had my DESS module replaced .... by real BRP Tech's ...... they told me the keys have nothing to do with the DESS module ..... and they didn't do mine .......... So either your dealer isn't as up on this as they think they are, or they just did it anyway for some unknown reason ...... Mike

Hello again... I'm not sure what they meant but the key has the excited transponder chip inside that's part, parcel, and an integral part of the DESS system... If you cut a regular key blank, or the top breaks off your key, without that transponder chip, the DESS system cannot read the encrypted security code, therefore it won't crank...

[UtahPete]

Requires MegaTech version of BUDS. Several shops around the country offer it, including ours. Most dealers do not opt for the upgraded version that has access to the security system.In BUDS, its a simple toggle of a setting.

Any suggestions on how I can locate someone with the ability to disable DESS should I decide to do that?

[gmctech]

IMG_20180629_151755.jpg

Possibly the first 2018 cluster to sport the BRP factory engineered "no soup for you" malfunction???

[trikermutha]

Are they still using the same ignition switch and DESS module on the 2018's

[Deanna777]

My buddy had a 2018 out for the weekend to test drive... guess what? it went back on a tow truck! 772 km on it, parked it overnight at a resort we were all staying at (20 some bikes) and the next morning CHECK KEY error.... needless to say he was spun off into a new dimension of pissed off, especially when the Honda guys, the Kawi guy (that's me) and the Harley guys were all able to finish our ride and his tester messed in the bed. In the very short future I will be offering (for a reasonable price) DESS deactivation to any and all that never want to experience this stupid UNFIXED engineering flaw; this deactivation will be good for all BRP products..... I'm an automotive Red Seal GM Grand Master Technician with SET (specialized electrical training/certification) so I'm pretty sure if I couldn't get it running nobody could... I even tried a redundant ground ESD/EMI drain wire to the casing of the ignition switch housing in case there was a static charge in the pickup coil all to no avail.

I do A LOT of work on local Spyders... I'm in no way shape or form crapping on them... I'm just pointing out the cold hard obvious truth... they're actually a great bike except for this potentially hazardous flaw. Imagine getting caught somewhere on your Spyder or quad and extreme weather is barrelling down on you, and you're not prepared for it or there's some other life-threatening situation rapidly deteriorating (like an angry bear hot on your heels) and you hop on your ride only to experience CHECK KEY.... funny that my bikes don't have any security like this, so I put on a simple $30 security systems and it is just as effective or actually even more effective than the DESS as my bike starts to scream bloody murder if you so much as look at it wrong and my security system cuts out the fuel injectors and spark; whereas a set of side cutters and your Spyder is quietly being pushed into a trailer and carted away even with DESS working. BRP REALLY needs to do as Ducati, Harley, and Indian do and provide a means for a quick PIN code input and you're up and running (but I guess that would take away from the thousands of dollars of so-called fixes they get to sell you outside of warranty) or give you the option as it's your property to damn well deactivate it!

Another one of my Spyder customers just spent $4500 getting this "fixed" on his Spyder that was 28 days outside of warranty, and guess what, he called up the other day saying he had the key error AGAIN (he had the DESS module, the ignition switch, and the cluster replaced by a dealer I've never dealt with in a different province). I know two Spyder owners who are now getting so fed up with this situation and water intrusion issues in fuse boxes etc. etc... that they are actively looking for really nice used GL1800 Goldwings and will be having me install the Sturgis R18 kit on them.... The dealer they bought their spyders from is AWESOME, FLAT OUT AWESOME, but BRP corporate are a bunch of arrogant jerks at best (well that's been our experience) .... end rant!

One last word of advice is if you experience the CHECK KEY error IT WILL LEAVE YOU STRANDED at some point.... the fiddling with the key, rapid ignition cycling, removing the ground for a period of time etc etc is all snake oil remedies and placebo effect... if your bike starts after one of those it's pure coincidence... we worked on this Spyder for well over an hour and tried everything short of sprinkling holy water on it and it still left on a flat deck.

Did one of your spyder customers (the one who spent $4500 getting it "Fixed") try going thru BRP's warranty? It is meant to be UNDER WARRANTY - have your spyder customer OPEN UP A CASE WITH BRP.

I have a 2014RTS-SE-6 and have had the D.E.S.S Module/switch, & keys reprogramed in 2015. Since then, I have not had the D.E.S.S. error show up, and I have 22,300 miles on the bike. See the beginning of this thread for more info.


Deanna

[Deanna777]

Are they still using the same ignition switch and DESS module on the 2018's

If they are what is the ignition switch #, & the D.E.S.S. module#.?

Deanna

[LeftCoast]

I got it for the second time in 2 months yesterday. If anyone in the San Francisco Bay Area knows how to disable this thing let me know!

[gmctech]

Did one of your spyder customers (the one who spent $4500 getting it "Fixed") try going thru BRP's warranty? It is meant to be UNDER WARRANTY - have your spyder customer OPEN UP A CASE WITH BRP.

I have a 2014RTS-SE-6 and have had the D.E.S.S Module/switch, & keys reprogramed in 2015. Since then, I have not had the D.E.S.S. error show up, and I have 22,300 miles on the bike. See the beginning of this thread for more info.


Deanna

As far as I know, warranty was denied because he's outside of warranty and all parts replaced. Looks like you're one of the lucky FEW where a plethora of parts thrown at it did the trick... As far as I'm concerned and from what my research has shown, it's a system that should be deactivated, because if the 2018's are already failing there's little hope that BRP has actually fixed anything. Nonetheless, I'll be deactivating the DESS on every Spyder I work on, as they're already lined up to get the permanent and only fix that actually works for all BRP products.

[gmctech]

If they are what is the ignition switch #, & the D.E.S.S. module#.?

Deanna

key=same
Ignition switch=different
DESS module=same
DESS Antenna=same
Cluster=different
ECU=different

Logic would dictate that this is an engineering defect/flaw/failure.... call it whatever but judging from how many people on here are having issue after issue and having the issue reoccur even after a multitude of parts being thrown at them it's just time to admit defeat on BRP's end, offer a rebate and/or aftermarket security system to all BRP owners with install free of charge, deactivate the factory DESS system and go to a company like GM, Ford or Chrysler and beg them to design a new passive security system (because in my almost 20 years of being a factory trained tech, security malfunctions would be one of the most unlikely malfunctions for a vehicle to exhibit).

[gmctech]

I got it for the second time in 2 months yesterday. If anyone in the San Francisco Bay Area knows how to disable this thing let me know!

I feel for ya..... unfortunately it's likely just the tip of the iceberg. Might I suggest that a special forum section (if it's not already running) be created where people with an aftermarket MECHATRONIC EXPERT system can post their services geographically..... I do a lot of VW work on the side too and the VW forums have a special section where us aftermarket diagnostic guys with aftermarket VAG-COM's post our location and what units we have and what we can do (the aftermarket vagcom allows me to long code a vehicle in ways that the factory/dealership units couldn't even begin to fathom). I'm way East in Canuckistan and hopefully will be offering DESS deactivation as soon as we get setup with the new system.

[gmctech]

Are they still using the same ignition switch and DESS module on the 2018's

From what I found on parts lookup systems here's a breakdown of things...
Key=same
Ignition Switch=different
DESS Module=same
DESS Antenna=same
Cluster=different
ECU=different

.....and yet here we are again with picture proof of a 2018 Spyder locked down, disabled, failed, malfunctioning with the same old same old DESS flaw.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

.....and yet here we are again with picture proof of a 2018 Spyder locked down, disabled, failed, malfunctioning with the same old same old DESS flaw.

But the one huge complication in trying to figure out what is causing the failure is the fact that thousands of us, like me, have thousands of miles on an early production 2014 RT and have never had a DESS failure. The only time I had one was when I deliberately induced it by having a second key next to the one in the ignition.

[gmctech]

But the one huge complication in trying to figure out what is causing the failure is the fact that thousands of us, like me, have thousands of miles on an early production 2014 RT and have never had a DESS failure. The only time I had one was when I deliberately induced it by having a second key next to the one in the ignition.

Well what can I say, from what I've read and experienced first hand IT'S A PROBLEM... Additionally, what do you have to say about a 2018 test bike with only one key, no accessories, completely stock FAILING.... and seriously, come on, two keys side by side causing an issue? That's just poor engineering. Try that with even your most basic GM, Yota, Kia etc. etc. and YOU WILL NOT HAVE AN ISSUE. Short of throwing your cars key in the microwave, it's not going to fail..... At the end of the day, sometimes you just have to concede defeat AND START OVER AND RE-ENGINEER THINGS.... BRP has failed in this respect on a colossal scale.

[Deanna777]

As far as I know, warranty was denied because he's outside of warranty and all parts replaced. Looks like you're one of the lucky FEW where a plethora of parts thrown at it did the trick... As far as I'm concerned and from what my research has shown, it's a system that should be deactivated, because if the 2018's are already failing there's little hope that BRP has actually fixed anything. Nonetheless, I'll be deactivating the DESS on every Spyder I work on, as they're already lined up to get the permanent and only fix that actually works for all BRP products.

Did your customer (the one who spent $$$) try the B.E.S.T warranty?

Was the manufacturer's warranty denied?

I'll post on this thread if I get the D.E.S.S error again.


Yes, I guess I am one of the FEW where a plethora of parts thrown at it did the trick. I have a 2014RTS-SE6.

Deanna

[Deanna777]

key=same
Ignition switch=different
DESS module=same
DESS Antenna=same
Cluster=different
ECU=different

Logic would dictate that this is an engineering defect/flaw/failure.... call it whatever but judging from how many people on here are having issue after issue and having the issue reoccur even after a multitude of parts being thrown at them it's just time to admit defeat on BRP's end, offer a rebate and/or aftermarket security system to all BRP owners with install free of charge, deactivate the factory DESS system and go to a company like GM, Ford or Chrysler and beg them to design a new passive security system (because in my almost 20 years of being a factory trained tech, security malfunctions would be one of the most unlikely malfunctions for a vehicle to exhibit).

Is the D.E.S.S Module/D.E.S.S Antenna part #710004916?

What is the Cluster Part #?

What is the ECU part #?

These can be found on the Dealership Invoice sheet that they give you.

Is the Ignition Switch Part #710004413?

Deanna

[PW2013STL]

Well what can I say, from what I've read and experienced first hand IT'S A PROBLEM... Additionally, what do you have to say about a 2018 test bike with only one key, no accessories, completely stock FAILING.... and seriously, come on, two keys side by side causing an issue? That's just poor engineering. Try that with even your most basic GM, Yota, Kia etc. etc. and YOU WILL NOT HAVE AN ISSUE. Short of throwing your cars key in the microwave, it's not going to fail..... At the end of the day, sometimes you just have to concede defeat AND START OVER AND RE-ENGINEER THINGS.... BRP has failed in this respect on a colossal scale.

I wish I lived closer to you as I would love to have my DESS turned off.

Mine has been replaced twice now. Second one about a year after the first. Best warranty each time so it has cost me a total of $100 and I am now out of warranty. We have had the key error come on 3 times since the last replacement, by luckily the bike has started after turning the key off and removing it from the ignition. I am worried that one of these times it will not work leaving us stranded as it did the first two times.

I am less concerned that someone will steal the Spyder than I am about another DESS failure!

[gmctech]

Is the D.E.S.S Module/D.E.S.S Antenna part #710004916?

What is the Cluster Part #?

What is the ECU part #?

These can be found on the Dealership Invoice sheet that they give you.

Is the Ignition Switch Part #710004413?

Deanna

I'm just going by the parts lookup system... the 2018 was a tester and went back never to be seen again! I cannot remember the numbers now; and at any rate what difference would it make? The defective DESS system is still alive and well in 2018.... you'd think BRP would have gotten this fixed, resolved, rectified or made alternate solutions like I suggested by now... this is what, 8+ years now that this defect has been present in the Spyders? From a manufacturing standpoint, regarding a defect of this magnitude which will leave you stranded, it's beyond pathetic that BRP hasn't gotten this defect under control/rectified.

[gmctech]

Did your customer (the one who spent $$$) try the B.E.S.T warranty?

Was the manufacturer's warranty denied?

I'll post on this thread if I get the D.E.S.S error again.


Yes, I guess I am one of the FEW where a plethora of parts thrown at it did the trick. I have a 2014RTS-SE6.

Deanna

Of course, I'm just going by hearsay and the invoice I saw a while back.... he didn't have extended warranty and he said that BRP didn't go good for it, and he had to pay out of his pocket (as proved by his invoice showing payment). Now whether this was a dealership being lazy and wanting to Hoover your wallet, or BRP just being BRP, I cannot say... but I'd just like to reiterate that this guy was at a dealership OUT OF PROVINCE - the dealership in my province is exceptional!

[eddieshep999]

I know some members have replaced the DESS Modular Unit & Relocated it, Whilst others have had it switched off via BUDS
Could you just disconnect the existing DESS Unit and what effect would this have on the Spyder (Limp mode etc)
I know the DESS Unit interacts with the transponder in the key for a signal but would the onboard computer need this connection to start
Just interested to know if anyone has tried this

[Deanna777]

I'm just going by the parts lookup system... the 2018 was a tester and went back never to be seen again! I cannot remember the numbers now; and at any rate what difference would it make? The defective DESS system is still alive and well in 2018.... you'd think BRP would have gotten this fixed, resolved, rectified or made alternate solutions like I suggested by now... this is what, 8+ years now that this defect has been present in the Spyders? From a manufacturing standpoint, regarding a defect of this magnitude which will leave you stranded, it's beyond pathetic that BRP hasn't gotten this defect under control/rectified.

Yes, it is 8+ years that this defect has been present in Spyders. Yes, I would think from a manufacturing point of view regarding this defect (I also work at a manufacturing plant) that BRP would/could have come up with some solution to fix the problem. We (Spyder owners) are at the mercy of BRP. I would think that BRP would do something about it because of all the cases that have been opened up about the D.E.S.S. Issues!


I wonder if any other 2018 Spyder models that have had the D.E.S.S. error/or have been stranded?

Deanna

[Deanna777]

Of course I'm just going by hearsay and the invoice I saw a while back.... he didn't have extended warranty and he said that BRP didn't go good for it and he had to pay out of pocket (as proved by his invoice showing payment).. Now whether this was a dealership being lazy and wanting to Hoover your wallet or BRP just being BRP, I cannot say... but I'd just like to reiterate that this guy was at a dealership OUT OF PROVINCE..... the dealership in my province is exceptional!

Dealership lazy.........I would have pushed the dealership to OPEN UP A case with BRP, so the dealership could not Hoover over the wallet.

Deanna

[Deanna777]

I know some members have replaced the DESS Modular Unit & Relocated it, Whilst others have had it switched off via BUDS
Could you just disconnect the existing DESS Unit and what effect would this have on the Spyder (Limp mode etc)
I know the DESS Unit interacts with the transponder in the key for a signal but would the onboard computer need this connection to start
Just interested to know if anyone has tried this

I wonder the same thing - would the on-board computer need the connection to start? I don't know that answer, but I hope someone who might know will chime in with an answer.

Deanna

[Deanna777]

BTW, I'm not having my D.E.S.S. turned off; so far, since the second 'fix', I've not had the D.E.S.S. error show up again!

Deanna