General Observation - DESS error reports seem to be growing recently!

[finless]

OK not to start a big debate but I am online on Facebook Spyder pages (many including SRA club sites) and of course here on SL.

After yet another DESS error reported just today I decided to go back and have a count of these as sorry to say I have been noticing an upward trend in people reporting this!!!!!

Between Spyder Lovers and the 7 Facebook groups, I counted 37 DESS error reports since May 1. There were more if I went back in time but this is a bubble in time based on my search.

I just searched and counted. Sorry I did not keep a tally between the different places I counted.

I also only searched on the word DESS to find them. Thus I am positive I missed some where people posted the "orange key screen" and no one mentioned DESS.


So the surprising thing, since many of us may know about the 2014 DESS Service bulletin, 21 were 2014 and 16 were new 2015's.
Makes me wonder if something is going on?
Maybe with summer and temps going up there is some correlation?

Just sharing an observation or "trend" I am noticing....

Bob

[Bob Denman]

Interesting...
What do you think is the cause of this?
Could it be the new system?
Is it a mechanical fault?

[PMK]

One of the other topics had me do some semi serious research.

I need to ask the dealer about the capability of their BUDs equipment. OEM BRP equipment can not disable the DESS but apparently there is the capability to disable DESS with the proper equipment.

The system is on not only Spyder, but quads, and Sea Doos plus I imagine Ski Doos.

Rumor is that Canada requires a system like this, while the US does not.

The system works in a complicated way. The key is coded and has the means to transmit a signal. The antenna for the DESS is next to the Ignition Switch. As the key is in proximity of the switch, a signal is received and sent to the ECM. The ECM decides if that key number is valid and matches a key number stored in memory. If the numbers match, the ECM moves forward in the process. If the numbers do not match, the orange screen appears.

I do not have a complete solution, but hope to find the means to disable DESS on our machine.

PK

[finless]

Add yet another report to the count!

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/s...l=1#post993048

I am telling you all that something is going on and I am willing to bet.... there will be something come from BRP on this.

If I had to guess, the electronics unit they are sourcing (probably from China) has some issues..... Just a GUESS....

Bob

[Bob Denman]

Thanks for the research; let's see what develops!

[gypsy_100]

So the surprising thing, since many of us may know about the 2014 DESS Service bulletin, 21 were 2014 and 16 were new 2015's.

Bob

Unfortunate. The 2015 DESS has a different part number as does the ECM. I was hoping that they solved the issue with the 2015's but it doesn't sound like it. And even if they had solved it, the 2015 ECM changed in some way so the 2015 DESS may not work with the 2014 ECM.

Does anyone have a copy of the bulletin on this? Would be nice to see what BRP actually said about it.

Disabling is starting to sound more attractive all the time.

[larryd]

Unfortunate. The 2015 DESS has a different part number as does the ECM. I was hoping that they solved the issue with the 2015's but it doesn't sound like it. And even if they had solved it, the 2015 ECM changed in some way so the 2015 DESS may not work with the 2014 ECM.

Does anyone have a copy of the bulletin on this? Would be nice to see what BRP actually said about it.

Disabling is starting to sound more attractive all the time.

My 2014 RTS is setting with the DESS code for almost two weeks...

I just got done talking to my dealer and he read me the TSB about this problem...Machines affected are 2014 & 2015 RS, RSS & all RT's...The problem is with the DESS module, its sending to strong of a single and saturating the key chip...The fix is a updated part number DESS module...You need to remove the trunk to replace the module...Mine is going to the shop next Tues. (6/23) for the fix/updated module...

Now let me tell you about my BRP roadside assistance situation...Fortunately my Spyder broke down close to home and I picked it up with my truck and trailer...I called BRP roadside assistance to take my Spyder back to my dealer...They called me back with a quote of $700.00 to flat bed it back, a little over 100 miles to my dealer...That is $500.00 out of my pocket...NOT HAPPENING...I ask BRP if they would reimburse me up to $200.00 for me to trailer it back...AGAIN, NOT HAPPENING...BRP called me back the next day and said they could take it to a dealer about 60 miles away...I said, NOT HAPPENING...

So next Tues. I will be taking to my dealer, myself, at my expense...

larryd

[tofriendscreek]

It's not just 14 & 15's. DESS issue struck my 2012 RT last August. Removing the key and walking away for a bit cured the error and it always started. Making the module changes is a big undertaking. It took several hours to complete.

[billybovine]

My 2014 RTS is setting with the DESS code for almost two weeks...

I just got done talking to my dealer and he read me the TSB about this problem...Machines affected are 2014 & 2015 RS, RSS & all RT's...The problem is with the DESS module, its sending to strong of a single and saturating the key chip...The fix is a updated part number DESS module...You need to remove the trunk to replace the module...Mine is going to the shop next Tues. (6/23) for the fix/updated module...

larryd

Well finally someone has posted what the TSB says regarding the DESS module key problem. Thanks. That sounds reasonable and explains the symptoms people are having.

[gypsy_100]

My 2014 RTS is setting with the DESS code for almost two weeks...

I just got done talking to my dealer and he read me the TSB about this problem...Machines affected are 2014 & 2015 RS, RSS & all RT's...The problem is with the DESS module, its sending to strong of a single and saturating the key chip...The fix is a updated part number DESS module...You need to remove the trunk to replace the module...Mine is going to the shop next Tues. (6/23) for the fix/updated module...

larryd

Thanks for the info. According to the BRP website and checking on the ProCaliber website, the DESS part number for the 2014 models (RT and RS) is 710004190. For 2015 it's 710004241. However, my original 2014 shop manual lists the DESS as 710003595. So perhaps the 4190 is the updated part. ProCaliber shows 3595 as crossed out and replaced by 4190. Please let us know when you get your bike back what the part number is for the "updated" DESS for your 2014. All of these parts list for $133.

Replacement is a five-minute job once you have the frunk off. That's the problem. No reprogramming is needed.

[PaladinLV]

I wonder if this is an "RF" signal. Anyone know?
It would explain why in some cases walking away for a time corrects the problem.

If it is, there would be an possible easy work-around for those that get stuck!

AJ

The problem is with the DESS module, its sending to strong of a single and saturating the key chip...The fix is a updated part number DESS module...You need to remove the trunk to replace the module
larryd

[The Bee!!]

I started getting DESS error about 2 months ago. I am finding out that it happens more if i get out of sequence when starting the machine. And then if i shut it off and on about 4 times in a short period of time. Like waiting at the Canadian border crossing shutting the bike on and off the by the 3 or 4 time it won't start. I don't shut the machine off when getting gas now as I'm afraid that it won't start,rrrrr. Very frustrating problem, because you never know when it's going to happen.... Hope they get their sh***t together soon... My dealer is also giving me the run around because BRP is giving them the run around saying that's not their problem

[SpyderAnn01]

My 2014 RTS is setting with the DESS code for almost two weeks...

I just got done talking to my dealer and he read me the TSB about this problem...Machines affected are 2014 & 2015 RS, RSS & all RT's...The problem is with the DESS module, its sending to strong of a single and saturating the key chip...The fix is a updated part number DESS module...You need to remove the trunk to replace the module...Mine is going to the shop next Tues. (6/23) for the fix/updated module...

Now let me tell you about my BRP roadside assistance situation...Fortunately my Spyder broke down close to home and I picked it up with my truck and trailer...I called BRP roadside assistance to take my Spyder back to my dealer...They called me back with a quote of $700.00 to flat bed it back, a little over 100 miles to my dealer...That is $500.00 out of my pocket...NOT HAPPENING...I ask BRP if they would reimburse me up to $200.00 for me to trailer it back...AGAIN, NOT HAPPENING...BRP called me back the next day and said they could take it to a dealer about 60 miles away...I said, NOT HAPPENING...

So next Tues. I will be taking to my dealer, myself, at my expense...

larryd

Sorry about that but BRP Roadside doesn't cover much. It is better than my Progressive towing which will only tow for 14 miles for free. I'd say get AAA RV but they suck. People have said good things about Good Sam coverage. Both AAA RV and Good Sam would tow you the 100 miles though.

[gypsy_100]

Sorry about that but BRP Roadside doesn't cover much. It is better than my Progressive towing which will only tow for 14 miles for free. I'd say get AAA RV but they suck. People have said good things about Good Sam coverage. Both AAA RV and Good Sam would tow you the 100 miles though.

I had the opposite experience with BRP. When my clutch slave cylinder failed in Presque Isle, Maine on a Saturday morning, I called BRP. They told me the nearest dealer was in Fort Kent, Maine which happens to be about 60 miles away. I asked BRP to let me call the dealer first to see what they could do. I called Fort Kent Powersports. They were great -- the owner said he couldn't work on it Sat afternoon but would wait for me and put it inside if I got trucked there. Then start work on it first thing Monday morning -- he had the o-rings in stock, amazingly. I called BRP back and said OK. Now what? They told me a flatbed would be there in 45 minutes. It was. Loaded up and he took the bike, both of us and all our stuff to Fort Kent. I never paid a dime or saw a bill. It all went thru BRP. Couldn't have been simpler. But BRP has to be in control. They have negotiated contracts with towing companies and make all the arrangements. Their followup was also good. They called me back to say the truck was on its way. Then they called while we were in transit to see if the truck got there and everything was OK. Wanted to see if we were happy with the towing outfit. So we had a good experience with BRP. Sorry we're off topic here.

[finless]

I had the opposite experience with BRP. When my clutch slave cylinder failed in Presque Isle, Maine on a Saturday morning, I called BRP. They told me the nearest dealer was in Fort Kent, Maine which happens to be about 60 miles away. I asked BRP to let me call the dealer first to see what they could do. I called Fort Kent Powersports. They were great -- the owner said he couldn't work on it Sat afternoon but would wait for me and put it inside if I got trucked there. Then start work on it first thing Monday morning -- he had the o-rings in stock, amazingly. I called BRP back and said OK. Now what? They told me a flatbed would be there in 45 minutes. It was. Loaded up and he took the bike, both of us and all our stuff to Fort Kent. I never paid a dime or saw a bill. It all went thru BRP. Couldn't have been simpler. But BRP has to be in control. They have negotiated contracts with towing companies and make all the arrangements. Their followup was also good. They called me back to say the truck was on its way. Then they called while we were in transit to see if the truck got there and everything was OK. Wanted to see if we were happy with the towing outfit. So we had a good experience with BRP. Sorry we're off topic here.

How long ago was this?

Bob

[billybovine]

No reprogramming is needed.

Please explain how that is possible. Since the key codes are stored on the DESS module and when the old module is removed the existing key codes are lost. That is my understanding.

[gypsy_100]

How long ago was this?

Bob

Sept 2014.

[gypsy_100]

Please explain how that is possible. Since the key codes are stored on the DESS module and when the old module is removed the existing key codes are lost. That is my understanding.

The key codes are stored in the ECM. The DESS is just sort of a pass through. I'll quote from the shop manual (it won't let me copy and paste it) in the general system description section of DESS:

"When the DESS system is powered up at key ON, the antenna energizes the microcircuit in the key and receives the digital code transmitted by the key."

"The DESS module then passes on the unique key code to the ECM, for comparison with the key codes it has stored in memory.
The DESS module can be replaced independently of other system components without requiring any reprogramming of the keys into the system."

Then later under the specific instructions for replacing the DESS module:

"NOTE: Since the DESS codes are stored in the ECM, it is not necessary to reprogram the keys when replacing the DESS module."

Their instructions basically say to disconnect the antenna, disconnect the DESS module, remove the mounting screws, reverse the procedure to install. Turn the key on and all should be good.

Also note that in big, bold letters it says: "NOTICE. Do not apply any dielectric grease in the DESS module connectors." FYI

[billybovine]

The key codes are stored in the ECM. The DESS is just sort of a pass through. I'll quote from the shop manual (it won't let me copy and paste it) in the general system description section of DESS:

"When the DESS system is powered up at key ON, the antenna energizes the microcircuit in the key and receives the digital code transmitted by the key."

"The DESS module then passes on the unique key code to the ECM, for comparison with the key codes it has stored in memory.
The DESS module can be replaced independently of other system components without requiring any reprogramming of the keys into the system."

Then later under the specific instructions for replacing the DESS module:

"NOTE: Since the DESS codes are stored in the ECM, it is not necessary to reprogram the keys when replacing the DESS module."

Their instructions basically say to disconnect the antenna, disconnect the DESS module, remove the mounting screws, reverse the procedure to install. Turn the key on and all should be good.

Also note that in big, bold letters it says: "NOTICE. Do not apply any dielectric grease in the DESS module connectors." FYI

Good to know. That is a big change from 2013 and earlier. I don't have a 2014 or 2015 manual.

That also answers the question I had of how new keys are programed using BUDS on 2014/15, when the DESS module is not on the CAN BUS.

Thanks.

[beast68]

If the key is getting too much signal from the switch could somebody with the problem try an experiment? Take some tin foil and wrap it around the head of the covering 1/2 to 3/4 of the head. This could work as a partial Faraday cage and reduce this signal. The worst that could happen is that my idea does not work. I am not having this problem on my 2104 rts or I would try it myself. Anyone willing to try it? If it does not work just take foil off. Sounds crazy but it just might work.

[billybovine]

If the key is getting too much signal from the switch could somebody with the problem try an experiment? Take some tin foil and wrap it around the head of the covering 1/2 to 3/4 of the head. This could work as a partial Faraday cage and reduce this signal. The worst that could happen is that my idea does not work. I am not having this problem on my 2104 rts or I would try it myself. Anyone willing to try it? If it does not work just take foil off. Sounds crazy but it just might work.

No harm in trying. But reducing the output from the antenna coil with a shield also reduces the input from the transponder chip.

[gypsy_100]

Good to know. That is a big change from 2013 and earlier. I don't have a 2014 or 2015 manual.

That also answers the question I had of how new keys are programed using BUDS on 2014/15, when the DESS module is not on the CAN BUS.

Thanks.

Yep. Your comment made me go back and look at my 2011 manual. The DESS module stores the codes and does the code recognition on the earlier models, not the ECM. Big change for 2014's and later.

[Ex-Rocket]

What I am understanding here is that BRP does not have any kind of recall going on about replacing the DESS module. They are only replacing the DESS module on the ones that are having problems, correct? So I guess I keep riding my bike until I get stranded out in the middle of no where with no phone signal.

[PaladinLV]

Recalls are for SAFETY issues.
Your dealer has a Service bulletin listing the VINs effected by the DESS error (at least the 2014and prior).
Check with them to see if your machines on the list.

AJ

What I am understanding here is that BRP does not have any kind of recall going on about replacing the DESS module. They are only replacing the DESS module on the ones that are having problems, correct? So I guess I keep riding my bike until I get stranded out in the middle of no where with no phone signal.

[Dan McNally]

Interesting conversation . . . as owners, we should be paying close attention to service bulletins. Not every dealer does, and I suspect lots of folks are in and out of dealerships, assuming SB's are being done . . . that aren't.

As most of us have discovered, not all dealerships are the same . . . and some are less than reliable. Look at the number of folks who had to inform their dealers about the most recent recall for the 2013 RT, even after BRP had put out the word . . .