F3 Vibration

[John C]

The Spyder drive belt is a tensioned string system that transmits the drive pinion torque to the rear sprocket via the tension of the upper part of the belt. The natural response of a string system is to vibrate when stretched and released at different speeds and strengths. The accumulated energy of these movements in the belt will be dissipated throughout the entire vehicle through the drive pinion and the rear sprocket.

A momentary belt vibration may be felt when the vehicle is driven under increased load/torque conditions (acceleration and/or going uphill). When the belt tension is within specification, the phenomenon may occur between 3800rpm and 4300rpm in 6th gear on 1330 engines (or between 4700rpm and 5500rpm in 5th gear on 991 engines). This vibration is felt through the handle bars, the foot rests and the seat. The harmonic vibration described here is considered "normal behavior" for such a belt drive system. In no cases is there any damage produced to the unit's mechanical components by this harmonic vibration.

Although belt vibration cannot be entirely eliminated, changing the belt tension will change the RPM/Speed at which the vibration occurs and the amplitude of its occurrences. Adjusting the drive belt tension lower will reduce the vibration level. Under high load/torque conditions, the vibration levels are diminished in amplitude and the RPM which the vibration occurs is lowered by roughly 400rpm.

For someone driving regularly between 68 and 75mph having a lower belt tension means they will feel a belt vibration when going through speeds of 62 to 65mph but at a lower amplitude, and feel less vibrations under acceleration and cruising speed. For someone driving regularly between 62 to 65mph having a belt tension set at specification means they will not feel as much the belt vibration since it occurs at higher RPM/Speed 68 and 75mph.

Statically, the belt tension is based on the distance between the drive pinion and the rear sprocket. The belt can be preset to a specific value using the tension adjustment procedure. While standing on its wheels, the belt tension of the Spyder increases due to the rotation motion of the swing arm. Further additional weight on the vehicle (driver, passenger and luggage) further increases the static tension of the belt.

Dynamically, the big picture is that the belt tension continuously varies with the road surface irregularities. Furthermore, to transmit torque from the drive pinion to the rear sprocket, the given amount of tension is decreased from the lower portion of the belt and transmitted to the upper portion of the belt. The inverse is also true when the vehicle is under deceleration. The amount of tension transferred depends on the acceleration or deceleration of the vehicle and slope of the road.

The belt tension is the factor which determines the belt vibration. The engine speed at which vibration would occur depends solely on the tension of the belt since the length and mass of the belt remains relatively constant. More vibration is transmitted to the vehicle when the tension is high. This effect can be explained by the fact that higher tension implies higher stiffness and higher stiffness implies higher transmissibility. This also explains why even though more vibrations are observed on the lower portion of the belt, only the vibration of the upper portion of the belt is strongly felt on the vehicle due to its higher transmissibility (because it has a higher tension in the majority of driving conditions).

At constant speed and zero road slope, the upper part of the belt has a higher tension than the lower part of the belt due to aerodynamic resistance. Under acceleration and/or hill climb conditions, the upper part of the belt further increases in tension. The degree of acceleration or hill climb proportionally dictates the engine speed at which occurs the belt vibration and the amplitudes of vibration transmitted to the vehicle.

By reducing the tension of the belt, the transmitted vibration at very low torque conditions can be completely removed. The transmitted vibration at higher torque is similar to that of the specification belt tension but occurs at slightly lower RPM/speed.

So basically, if you experience unpleasant vibrations have your drive belt tension checked at three different points of rotation of the rear wheel/sprocket and see how it varies, and compares to the vehicle's specification. If the belt tension changes more than 250N between 2 readings this would indicate an out of round rear sprocket which should be replaced. Otherwise, you can adjust the tension to change the speed and amplitude at which it occurs.

Sledmaster,

Thanks for that video and informative post. My F3s has the belt vibe from 68 to 73 mph, so noticeable and consistent that you wouldn't need a speedometer, when it happens, you know exactly what speed you are going. It's not a huge deal in my opinion, but it is an annoyance. I guess I'll try one of the Baker F3 Belt stabilizers until Can Am comes up with some kind of fix?

John C
Peyton, CO

[jcasey]

I don't know what I am doing but my vibration is almost gone. If I didn't know it was there I wouldn't know it. I did have the first service done the other day and they might have changed the adj on the belt.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

[QUOTE=sledmaster;1006214]

The Spyder drive belt is a tensioned string system that transmits the drive pinion torque to the rear sprocket via the tension of the upper part of the belt. The natural response of a string system is to vibrate when stretched and released at different speeds and strengths. The accumulated energy of these movements in the belt will be dissipated throughout the entire vehicle through the drive pinion and the rear sprocket.

A momentary belt vibration may be felt when the vehicle is driven under increased load/torque conditions (acceleration and/or going uphill). When the belt tension is within specification, the phenomenon may occur between 3800rpm and 4300rpm in 6th gear on 1330 engines (or between 4700rpm and 5500rpm in 5th gear on 991 engines). This vibration is felt through the handle bars, the foot rests and the seat. The harmonic vibration described here is considered "normal behavior" for such a belt drive system. In no cases is there any damage produced to the unit's mechanical components by this harmonic vibration.

Although belt vibration cannot be entirely eliminated, changing the belt tension will change the RPM/Speed at which the vibration occurs and the amplitude of its occurrences. Adjusting the drive belt tension lower will reduce the vibration level. Under high load/torque conditions, the vibration levels are diminished in amplitude and the RPM which the vibration occurs is lowered by roughly 400rpm.

For someone driving regularly between 68 and 75mph having a lower belt tension means they will feel a belt vibration when going through speeds of 62 to 65mph but at a lower amplitude, and feel less vibrations under acceleration and cruising speed. For someone driving regularly between 62 to 65mph having a belt tension set at specification means they will not feel as much the belt vibration since it occurs at higher RPM/Speed 68 and 75mph.

Statically, the belt tension is based on the distance between the drive pinion and the rear sprocket. The belt can be preset to a specific value using the tension adjustment procedure. While standing on its wheels, the belt tension of the Spyder increases due to the rotation motion of the swing arm. Further additional weight on the vehicle (driver, passenger and luggage) further increases the static tension of the belt.

Dynamically, the big picture is that the belt tension continuously varies with the road surface irregularities. Furthermore, to transmit torque from the drive pinion to the rear sprocket, the given amount of tension is decreased from the lower portion of the belt and transmitted to the upper portion of the belt. The inverse is also true when the vehicle is under deceleration. The amount of tension transferred depends on the acceleration or deceleration of the vehicle and slope of the road.

The belt tension is the factor which determines the belt vibration. The engine speed at which vibration would occur depends solely on the tension of the belt since the length and mass of the belt remains relatively constant. More vibration is transmitted to the vehicle when the tension is high. This effect can be explained by the fact that higher tension implies higher stiffness and higher stiffness implies higher transmissibility. This also explains why even though more vibrations are observed on the lower portion of the belt, only the vibration of the upper portion of the belt is strongly felt on the vehicle due to its higher transmissibility (because it has a higher tension in the majority of driving conditions).

At constant speed and zero road slope, the upper part of the belt has a higher tension than the lower part of the belt due to aerodynamic resistance. Under acceleration and/or hill climb conditions, the upper part of the belt further increases in tension. The degree of acceleration or hill climb proportionally dictates the engine speed at which occurs the belt vibration and the amplitudes of vibration transmitted to the vehicle.

By reducing the tension of the belt, the transmitted vibration at very low torque conditions can be completely removed. The transmitted vibration at higher torque is similar to that of the specification belt tension but occurs at slightly lower RPM/speed.

So basically, if you experience unpleasant vibrations have your drive belt tension checked at three different points of rotation of the rear wheel/sprocket and see how it varies, and compares to the vehicle's specification. If the belt tension changes more than 250N between 2 readings this would indicate an out of round rear sprocket which should be replaced. Otherwise, you can adjust the tension to change the speed and amplitude at which it occurs.[/QUOT

Thanks for the above explanation, now I feel validated.......Although I lowered my belt TENSION for a different reason I achieved the above result......I have NO discernible BELT VIBRATION ......I don't have an F-3 but a 2014 RT which now requires a much higher belt tension than previously..........But mine is now 200 lb using the Krikit ( tire on the ground ).........Mike

[kaamacat]

BLUEKNIGHT911... in this F3 forum, would you mind posting your settings. I created a thread for on and off ground
settings and results. (mine happens to be 220on/160off since new.... I've not touched it yet but do get the momentary
vibration). Just to compare notes and results. IMHO the 220on, comparing to other belt drivens I've had seems a bit
high just by feel.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

BLUEKNIGHT911... in this F3 forum, would you mind posting your settings. I created a thread for on and off ground
settings and results. (mine happens to be 220on/160off since new.... I've not touched it yet but do get the momentary
vibration). Just to compare notes and results. IMHO the 220on, comparing to other belt drivens I've had seems a bit
high just by feel.

Yes this is the F-3 Forum and as I said I have a 14 RT......However ...what " Sledmaster " said is pertinent to ALL Spyder belts not just the F-3 and this was the reason for my commenting here because He Posted it Here...............if He had posted it elsewhere, then I would have posted it there.....................and to answer your question I have no idea about " off the ground ", since I never ride mine with the wheel OFF the ground I'm more concerned with the setting ON the ground...................I also believe People may be confusing normal engine " HARMONICS " and thinking it's BELT VIBRATION..........I have noticed when rolling ON the Throttle I can feel the Engine, when I roll OFF the Throttle that feeling diminishes ..........Try it , see what you think...............Mike

[Wildrice]

We at Baker Built have a belt stabilizer that will not add any more tension on the belt but will take the vibration out. Please check us out on our web site where you may view pictures of the belt stabilizer.
Thanks, Mike

I purchased the Baker belt stabilzer---as per shipped the upper stabilizer mounting bolt had approx 3/8" thread turns--which I felt somewhat less than safe. After mounting the chain guard I found that the mounting bolt would not grasp the securing clip. Distance of belt guard & recessed portion of mounting bolt & 1st thread catch was inadequate. I spoke to Bruce Baker & he advise to ream the belt guard hole out ot 3/4". That would allow the mounting bolt another 1/8" to grasp the inital turns but still lacked safety concerns for me. I purchase a 3/8" grade 8 2.5" bolt & securing hardware which appears to secure the mounting bolt safely. On my bike the Catalytic converter prevent the upper roller assembly to track the center of the belt---I am out of adjustment room to correct the adjustment.
At this time I do not have comprehensive info as to whether this modification solved the vibration problem. At low speed 3rd-4th gear at 4K rpm I still have a strong vibration on my footboards. More testing to follow. Attached is the upper roller assy with stock mounting bolt & 3/8" aftermarket longer bolt.
Darrell

[Wildrice]

some have said to not use 6th till your past 70mph and you wont feel any vibs.6th gear unde 72 mph is bogging the engine. try it and see for yourself.

WHAT---the Spyder needs to be above 5-6K rpm to prevent bogging the engine ??? Time to fix the engine---my 1298 cc Suzuki--I can start off from a dead stop with RPM at 1500 rpm in 6th gear--throttle wide open, & it will lug up to 180 mph without any vibration or engine misfire-backfire--just a steady pull. The Spyder mfg group has lots of experience with Polaris--etc. This 1330 Rotax needs it's engine balanced.... Not saying the belt isn't any issue but the bult of the problem is in the 1330 engine...

[Tazzel]

I purchased the Baker belt stabilzer---as per shipped the upper stabilizer mounting bolt had approx 3/8" thread turns--which I felt somewhat less than safe. After mounting the chain guard I found that the mounting bolt would not grasp the securing clip. Distance of belt guard & recessed portion of mounting bolt & 1st thread catch was inadequate. I spoke to Bruce Baker & he advise to ream the belt guard hole out ot 3/4". That would allow the mounting bolt another 1/8" to grasp the inital turns but still lacked safety concerns for me. I purchase a 3/8" grade 8 2.5" bolt & securing hardware which appears to secure the mounting bolt safely. On my bike the Catalytic converter prevent the upper roller assembly to track the center of the belt---I am out of adjustment room to correct the adjustment.
At this time I do not have comprehensive info as to whether this modification solved the vibration problem. At low speed 3rd-4th gear at 4K rpm I still have a strong vibration on my footboards. More testing to follow. Attached is the upper roller assy with stock mounting bolt & 3/8" aftermarket longer bolt.
Darrell

What, reem outl holes making them wider ? Should not this aftermarket product be designed to not have to start drilling holes? Seems like this product was pushed out and not really designed specifically for the F3

[pitzerwm]

I may wait till BRP sort out vibration issue before purchasing F3. I plan to buy at xmas and just hope BRP sort vibration issue out by then. My heart goes out to those owners who are experiencing the vibration problems and I will be keeping an eye on this post in the hope that BRP sort issue out and then I will buy F3.

In light of the collection of crap dealers with BRP, don't expect them to care about a little vibrations or "fix" them.

[Wildrice]

What, reem outl holes making them wider ? Should not this aftermarket product be designed to not have to start drilling holes? Seems like this product was pushed out and not really designed specifically for the F3

I agree--plus reaming out the belt guard hole will only give approx 1/8" of thread security---loctite isn'yt that tough, 1/2" of thread contact would be the very minimum & I don't like minimum's. Safety First...

[Darren111]

In light of the collection of crap dealers with BRP, don't expect them to care about a little vibrations or "fix" them.

We can only hope.

[Wildrice]

WHAT---the Spyder needs to be above 5-6K rpm to prevent bogging the engine ??? Time to fix the engine---my 1298 cc Suzuki--I can start off from a dead stop with RPM at 1500 rpm in 6th gear--throttle wide open, & it will lug up to 180 mph without any vibration or engine misfire-backfire--just a steady pull. The Spyder mfg group has lots of experience with Polaris--etc. This 1330 Rotax needs it's engine balanced.... Not saying the belt isn't any issue but the bult of the problem is in the 1330 engine...

BakerBuiltAirW. email to Bakerbuilt

Bruce it the F3 for ride up to 95 mph & back down various speeds/rpms. Seems to run fine without vibration except for centain RPM area's. The belt going to the rear needs to spin at MPH speed thus I believe the major problems is with engine balance---I know I go back & forth on this but that's what I did for a living--diagnosing & solving problems. I'll keep you posted should I want to return the F3 harmonic pulleys. Looks like its a combination of problems mainly caused by engine balance.Have a good weekend,
Darrell Feit

[jcasey]

Someone correct me if i am wrong. If balance is the issue and it started at a certain rpm wouldn't it remain in higher rpms until you got back down below the rpm where it started? I'm thinking that if it started at say 4000 rpm it would not stop at 4300 but would continue no matter how much higher you went until you got back below 4000rpm. Also speed would not be a factor. It would do it when going thru the gears when at 4000.

[Shogun]

Somewhere else on here this was brought up and what was thought is that it is an engine vibration at a specific speed when in 6th gear not the belt. When I felt it on mine I down shifted out of 6th gear and the vibration was gone.

Ditto

[jcthorne]

Trouble is, 6th gear is EXACTLY the right gear to be cruising at 68 to 70 on the freeway...

By the way, if I stay in 5th and approach the same speed, the vibration in the belt still sets up. Downshifting when it happens breaks the harmonic. When it occurs in 5th, if I then upshift it stops as well. but will come back eventually.

[Wildrice]

Someone correct me if i am wrong. If balance is the issue and it started at a certain rpm wouldn't it remain in higher rpms until you got back down below the rpm where it started? I'm thinking that if it started at say 4000 rpm it would not stop at 4300 but would continue no matter how much higher you went until you got back below 4000rpm. Also speed would not be a factor. It would do it when going thru the gears when at 4000.

I will disagree with your rpm theory on vibration. There are several motorcycle mfg with various models that have a RPM vibaration range.. Just as with an automobile if it rides great at 50mph--shimmy at 60 mph--probably won't shimmy from 70-120MPH.

Doesn't the rear sproket spin at same revolutions per same mph regardless of gear selected. The gear change ratio is in the transmission which is attached to the engine. Are some of you stating the belt spins at a different rpm at 50mph in 6th gear per xxmph speedodometer reading than the belt spinning at 4th gear at 7000 rpm in same xx mph range & equal speedometer reading??? Is that what U R implying??
Darrell

[Wildrice]

I as per Bruce at Bakerbuilt I have tried his new evaluation "upper roller" only (lower roller assy removed). I find it very difficult to accurately quote the difference between that and no belt roller assy---however--I do seem to feel some improvement with the "upper roller assy" versus without. I still believe the problem is with the F3 crankshaft harmonic balancer but it's apparent BRP isn't going to acknowledge I the upper roller does seem to assist in compensating for reducing the vibration. I't's impossible to determine the % of imprivement with Bakebuilt upper belt roller assy without an "accelerometer" but I do sense that the upper roller assy has made an improvement. I am going to keep the Bakerbuilt upper roller assy because approx 50% improvement is better than none. Especially for the $cost. Most of my vibration is felt in the foot platform thus some rubber issolation on those may also help reduce the problem.
That my story & I'm sticking to it-------until :-)
Darrell

[rockmantex]

I as per Bruce at Bakerbuilt I have tried his new evaluation "upper roller" only (lower roller assy removed). I find it very difficult to accurately quote the difference between that and no belt roller assy---however--I do seem to feel some improvement with the "upper roller assy" versus without. I still believe the problem is with the F3 crankshaft harmonic balancer but it's apparent BRP isn't going to acknowledge I the upper roller does seem to assist in compensating for reducing the vibration. I't's impossible to determine the % of imprivement with Bakebuilt upper belt roller assy without an "accelerometer" but I do sense that the upper roller assy has made an improvement. I am going to keep the Bakerbuilt upper roller assy because approx 50% improvement is better than none. Especially for the $cost. Most of my vibration is felt in the foot platform thus some rubber issolation on those may also help reduce the problem.
That my story & I'm sticking to it-------until :-)
Darrell

I didn't try the upper roller assy because the original upper and lower assy that I got from Baker Air Wings did away with all my vibration at all speeds. Why change something that is working.

[Air Wing Guy]

So, I took my new F3 on it's first long ride yesterday which entailed some freeway driving. Turns out I have the belt harmonics between 67 mph and 72 mph. Has anyone found a solution to this issue, or has anyone had any success with a resolution through Can Am.

Our New F3 Belt Stabilizer will solve majority of the vibrations you are experiencing. Im sharing the installation video below to show you how easy it is to install.

[Tazzel]

Install looks easy. I will consider purchase if my vibration returns. After 2k miles on the F3 the vibration is almost gone. I am wondering if its just a break in period for the engine or belt.

[Miguel508]

I picked up mine last week and have the same issue.
The vibration starts in 4th gear @ 3800 rpm, on 5th is harder @ 4k rpm, and it is terrible @ 4000 to 4500 on 6th gear and no, we should not have to shift around it after paying so much for a toy with defects.

[RUOUTHERE]

The engine is not lugging in the least! It is a very annoying vibration. You can drop the RPM's below 3800-4100 or above and the vibration goes away. So lugging the engine is not even part of the equation!!

I agree it's not speed but RPM's even on my RT Limited between 3800-4200 RPM regardless of my speed, it VIBRATES even with the belt tension set to the factory settings and belt alignment properly set.

I've added the Smooth Spyder belt tensioner, it helped but it didn't solve the vibration. After riding home from the Finger Lakes last weekend and 4400 miles riding down south including a lot of highway miles to get to and from, I'm very frustrated with Can-Am.

[RUOUTHERE]

In light of the collection of crap dealers with BRP, don't expect them to care about a little vibrations or "fix" them.

Here again I agree. Brought my RTL back to my dealer and all I get are deer in the headlight looks. They tell me they know nothing about it and make me feel it's all in my head.

[miltonb]

dear air wing guy. I just installed your product and took the f3 for a ride. it is one of the best things I've installed yet. thank you deercompassionateslayer milton

[LV2RYDE]

dear air wing guy. I just installed your product and took the f3 for a ride. it is one of the best things I've installed yet. thank you deercompassionateslayer milton

Did you install air wings or belt tensioner ?
please, specify