Final word on 1330 oil changes

[Roadster Renovations]

My dealer will not install full synthetic into my Spyder 1330. He claims BRP recommends using the Semi-synthetic only. Before anyone says to get rid of the dealer, that isn't going to happen. He is Platinum Certified, and the tech is highly trained, and certified. As far as 9200 mile oil changes? I don't doubt the Spyder will do just fine, and the oil will be fine also. The Honda Gold Wing calls for 8,000 mile changes on dino oil! I won't have to worry about it. I will not put that much mileage on the Spyder between oil changes. Once a year oil changes will do for me. BRP oil and filters changed by a BRP Tech.. Tom

What is so sad about that is that I was just told by a dealer last week that full synthetic BRP oil would be fine. Wish everyone would get on the same page about this Perhaps our BRP guru could give us the straight skinny on it? We need a way to call our guy like the State Farm dude.

[Highwayman2013]

Side by side tests of different oils with the same bike and mileage would show a lot. If one oil shows it breaks down less than others in a true independent test then that would be the one to use. Until that is clear I'm using the BRP oil.

[BajaRon]

My dealer will not install full synthetic into my Spyder 1330. He claims BRP recommends using the Semi-synthetic only. Before anyone says to get rid of the dealer, that isn't going to happen. He is Platinum Certified, and the tech is highly trained, and certified. As far as 9200 mile oil changes? I don't doubt the Spyder will do just fine, and the oil will be fine also. The Honda Gold Wing calls for 8,000 mile changes on dino oil! I won't have to worry about it. I will not put that much mileage on the Spyder between oil changes. Once a year oil changes will do for me. BRP oil and filters changed by a BRP Tech.. Tom

I do not understand why BRP would recommend AGAINST using a superior lubricant. I can see them saying the superior lubricant is not necessary. But to recommend against it makes no sense. Unless, maybe there is a problem with the specs. of THEIR 'Full Synthetic' oil in regards to use in the Ace motor. But I can't see that either.

In the early days I started selling Iridium spark plugs for the Spyder. I had dealers telling my customers that the Iridium spark plugs did not work well in the Spyder and could even cause damage. Again, how can a superior product not work well? I had customers pulling their Iridium spark plugs out and replacing them with the OEM copper electrode version.

Guess what BRP began putting in ALL Spyders from the factory in 2012? You got it, Iridium spark plugs.

I think this is a NON-Problem, Problem.

[Tango]

What is so sad about that is that I was just told by a dealer last week that full synthetic BRP oil would be fine. Wish everyone would get on the same page about this Perhaps our BRP guru could give us the straight skinny on it? We need a way to call our guy like the State Farm dude.

I have not seen Steve post in a long time. Wonder if he still works for BRP? Tom

[Art Mann]

I
Certainly, BRP does testing for lubricants. Just like they do testing for tires, suspension components, seating position, etc. But the fact is, there are products available which will enhance every one of these areas. I don't see that it hurts to inform people that there are better lubricants available that will give better service, improve protection, reduce wear and allow for longer service intervals. No one is saying anyone HAS to use a better lubricant any more than saying you have to upgrade your tires. It's just accurate, usable information.

The bottom line is, for some, Good Enough is Good Enough. For others, Good Enough.... Isn't!

Here is the thing. If I want to improve the suspension system of my Spyder, I can buy a Ron bar with confidence because there are people who have bought them that I trust and they recommend them. If I install one, I can feel the difference for myself in a matter of minutes. On the other hand, if I want to evaluate the effect of different oil change schedules and brands on engine life, I am going to have to have multiple Spyders and I am going to have to run them for maybe 100,000 miles. If there are no obvious problems, I am going to have to tear down the engines and measure the wear very carefully with precision instruments. Just observing the changes that occur as motor oil as it is used does not answer the real question. Fortunately, in all probability, someone has already done those studies and they are employed at BRP.

Better tires, suspension components and seating (just a few of hundreds of examples) costs BRP real money and if they do enough improvements to these things, they will price themselves out of a market. It is understandable that they would compromise on quality in certain ways and that superior after market products are available. Motor oil is a different story. They make money selling it and have a strong motivation to require the most expensive synthetic and frequent changes. Why on earth would they recommend a schedule that is less than optimum?

I know I belabor the point but I just want people to have something to think about before they spend their money on something that may not help them.

[BajaRon]

One thing is for sure. There is no such thing as 'The Final Word' on anything having to do with oil....

[Marker]

One thing is for sure. There is no such thing as 'The Final Word' on anything having to do with oil....

[Yazz]

Seems everybody is looking at only one side of the coin as far as oil testing is concerned. The breakdown of oil after X miles.

There is another reason to test used oil. Looking for the metallic compounds in the oil. If you know the metallic makeup of your engine, you can tell from the test which part is going to fail first. Preventative maintenance.

Looking forward to Doc H's results...

[BajaRon]

Seems everybody is looking at only one side of the coin as far as oil testing is concerned. The breakdown of oil after X miles.

There is another reason to test used oil. Looking for the metallic compounds in the oil. If you know the metallic makeup of your engine, you can tell from the test which part is going to fail first. Preventative maintenance.

Looking forward to Doc H's results...

True....

[JayBros]

Is anyone saying the below instruction from pg. 124 of the '14 RT-S manual doesn't pass the BS meter test? As I read it, the service classification is as critical for the clutch as the viscosity is for the rest of the engine but I don't know ... for sure. I, for one, am most interested in the results of Doc's test because my 3K service will be done sometime in the next two weeks and I'll have a possible baseline going forward. Nine grand is a long poke between changes. Given the investment a mid-course change may be very worth the dough.

"Use the XPS 4-STROKE SYNTH.
BLEND OIL (SUMMER) (P/N 293 600
121) or a 5W40 semi-synthetic (minimum)
or synthetic motorcycle oil
meeting the requirements for API service
SL, SJ, SH, SG or higher classification.
Always check the API service
label on the oil container."

[Roadster Renovations]

Is anyone saying the below instruction from pg. 124 of the '14 RT-S manual doesn't pass the BS meter test? As I read it, the service classification is as critical for the clutch as the viscosity is for the rest of the engine but I don't know ... for sure. I, for one, am most interested in the results of Doc's test because my 3K service will be done sometime in the next two weeks and I'll have a possible baseline going forward. Nine grand is a long poke between changes. Given the investment a mid-course change may be very worth the dough.

"Use the XPS 4-STROKE SYNTH.
BLEND OIL (SUMMER) (P/N 293 600
121) or a 5W40 semi-synthetic (minimum)
or synthetic motorcycle oil
meeting the requirements for API service
SL, SJ, SH, SG or higher classification.
Always check the API service
label on the oil container."

I almost went full synthetic, but I had bought the blended at the same time as the filter kit. In reality anyone can say this works for them or that works for them, but since we don't have high mileages on the engine and it's clutch and trans, I am proceeding cautiously. Additionally, this time I will be testing the oil from the tank side. If there is more clutch material in the sample than on the crankcase side from the last test (and there may be since there is a internal filter I believe) that will give us even more food for thought. Almost might need to test both drain areas separately. As far as the cost of the test, I save enough on doing the oil change myself to have about 20 oil tests run free.
One thing is sure, like Ron said, there is no final work on this...

[Roadster Renovations]

Oil report in. Results are not good.
Viscosity.jpg

OIL ANALYSIS REPORT


14000


4700


UIN 040D7BC


Gasoline Engine


16153841


Mi


Mi


Unidentified


Unidentified


SAE 5W40


25-Sep-14


21-Oct-14


24-Oct-14


41021062853


14826387


4000


Unidentified


Unidentified


SAE 5W40


Not Changed


Changed


Unit No. Can Am


Unit:


Make


Model


Serial No. 26351278-259233


Capacity: Ltrs


Site


Compartment:


Name Gasoline Engine


Make


Model


Serial No.


Customer:


HUMPHREY'S AUTOMOTIVE


2602 Clifty Street


Columbus IN


USA


All engine wear rates normal. Silicon level (dirt/sealant


material) satisfactory. Water content acceptable.


Viscosity low for specified oil grade.


Action: Please confirm grade of oil used in this


component. Check fuelling system. As oil and filter(s)


already changed, resample at a reduced service


interval to further monitor.


DIAGNOSIS


DATE SAMPLED 16-Jan-15


DATE RECEIVED 19-Jan-15


DATE REPORTED 22-Jan-15


LAB NO. 42020618198


SIF NO.


TIME ON UNIT


TIME ON OIL


OIL BRAND


OIL TYPE


OIL GRADE


OIL ADDED


FILTER


OIL CHANGED


WO NUMBER


Metals (ppm)


Iron (Fe) 46 22


Chromium (Cr) <1 <1


Lead (Pb) 3 <1


Copper (Cu) 7 5


Tin (Sn) 2 2


Aluminium (Al) 7 8


Nickel (Ni) <1 <1


Silver (Ag) <1 1


Titanium (Ti) <1 <1


Vanadium (V) <1 <1


Contaminants (ppm)


Silicon (Si) 7 11


Sodium (Na) 6 6


Potassium (K) 5 <5


Additives (ppm)


Magnesium (Mg) 47 50


Calcium (Ca) 1939 1846


Barium (Ba) <1 <1


Phosphorus (P) 686 691


Zinc (Zn) 799 767


Molybdenum (Mo) <1 <1


Boron (B) 10 10


Contaminants


Water (%) <0.05 <0.05


Coolant No No


Physical Tests


Viscosity (cSt 100C) 8.9 9.2


Physical / Chemical


Base Number (mgKOH/g) 4.7 5.5


Changed


Changed


ANALYST: Jon.Sowers


LEGEND


Severe Abnormal Caution Normal Abnormal

[Roadster Renovations]

I copied the results to make it easier. The second number is the Sept 13 test with 4K on the oil. The first number is the current test with 4700 on the oil. In 700 miles the viscosity dropped another .3. Next oil change I am going to a different oil. Also, this sample was taken from the clutch side.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I copied the results to make it easier. The second number is the Sept 13 test with 4K on the oil. The first number is the current test with 4700 on the oil. In 700 miles the viscosity dropped another .3. Next oil change I am going to a different oil. Also, this sample was taken from the clutch side.

.....So the bottom line on this is : the tester is saying for Test #1, the results were rated as ABNORMAL .......and Test # 2, the result was CAUTION NEEDED........Very bottom line is BRP BLENDED oil is DEFINATELY NOT something you are going to use again ??????.......................Mike , Thanks for this update

[BajaRon]

I copied the results to make it easier. The second number is the Sept 13 test with 4K on the oil. The first number is the current test with 4700 on the oil. In 700 miles the viscosity dropped another .3. Next oil change I am going to a different oil. Also, this sample was taken from the clutch side.

It shouldn't matter where you take the sample from as it's all the same oil going to all the same places. It just happens to be here or there when you take the sample.

What oil do you plan on trying next?

[Roadster Renovations]

Not sure at this point. What really chaps me is that I will have to replace the filter also. I might do one more drain and fill at 4K with the BRP Blended 5x40, then a complete change at 8K. I think as long as it's changed in that sequence and interval, it won't shear too bad and by then I'll have a plan ready. Probably Mobil 1 for motorcycles. One thing for sure, no way would I go beyond 5K using BRP oil.
You know, someone suggested that BRP had to have extensively tested their oil in the 1330 in order to come up with the 9200 mile interval. This gives me some food for thought and none of it is good. Either it wasn't tested that well or the reports were fudged for some reason or it was planned to wear this engine down to increase maintenance revenues. May be more, those are the ones that come to mind. And as I said, none of them good.

Here is the link for the PDF file. We need to get the word out on this.....

http://dochumphreys.wix.com/roadster...interest/c1oum

[ulflyer]

It had dropped to mid-upper 20W level in 4700 miles. I'll repeat my mantra that I have yet to find any 10-40 oil, synthetic or otherwise, that will go to 4000 miles and not be down to low 30w.

[BajaRon]

Not sure at this point. What really chaps me is that I will have to replace the filter also. I might do one more drain and fill at 4K with the BRP Blended 5x40, then a complete change at 8K. I think as long as it's changed in that sequence and interval, it won't shear too bad and by then I'll have a plan ready. Probably Mobil 1 for motorcycles. One thing for sure, no way would I go beyond 5K using BRP oil.
You know, someone suggested that BRP had to have extensively tested their oil in the 1330 in order to come up with the 9200 mile interval. This gives me some food for thought and none of it is good. Either it wasn't tested that well or the reports were fudged for some reason or it was planned to wear this engine down to increase maintenance revenues. May be more, those are the ones that come to mind. And as I said, none of them good.

Here is the link for the PDF file. We need to get the word out on this.....

http://dochumphreys.wix.com/roadster...interest/c1oum

There are other possibilities than the ones you listed. I have never suspected any kind of conspiracy by BRP to intentionally increase wear for any reason.

It may be that the engineers are satisfied that the sheared oil will still lubricate adequately, or that the added wear is acceptable. There is much that we do not know. It may be that there was pressure to reduce maintenance costs for better customer acceptance. We just don't know.

But I must say that I am not surprised that the blended oil falls below specs relatively early. We proved this many times with the 998 Rotax. It is the transmission that does most of the damage. So, adding HP and increasing weight in the 1330 ACE motor did not bode well for the longevity of the blended oil. This is why so many have raised an eyebrow or 2 over the increased service intervals. And I think rightly so.

Most blended oils are only 10% synthetic and 90% plain old dino oil. Some are less than this.

A true Type IV based synthetic oil resists shear much better than dyno oil with additives. Mobil 1 should do better than the BRP blended, especially if it is a 10w-40 instead of a 5w-40. I would hope that Amsoil would do even better than Mobil 1, but I do not have any Spyder specific documentation that would support that.

Great info! Personally, I think it is more reasonable to have your oil tested than to rely on what we think the engineers are doing. After all, if the engineers are right, then the tested oil would simply confirm it.

[PW2013STL]

It had dropped to mid-upper 20W level in 4700 miles. I'll repeat my mantra that I have yet to find any 10-40 oil, synthetic or otherwise, that will go to 4000 miles and not be down to low 30w.

I earlier posted results at 6000 miles that showed Mobil 1 10-40w that dropped to about 33w (1330 Oil Report Phase 2). My first post was BRP blended at 6000 miles and that came in at 20w (1330 Oil Report). I currently have BRP full synthetic in, but being dead of winter in Minnesota it will be awhile before I have 6000 on it for testing.

I find it interesting that yours at 4700 miles had a 20w rating and mine at 6000 had the same. It would be nice to see what it would look like at the 9000 mile mark, but I have no intention of finding out on my Spyder.

[Highwayman2013]

Very interesting results. It will be great as more results are posted. Thank you to those that pay for the tests and post the results for all of us to see.

[Questions]

What is so sad about that is that I was just told by a dealer last week that full synthetic BRP oil would be fine. Wish everyone would get on the same page about this Perhaps our BRP guru could give us the straight skinny on it? We need a way to call our guy like the State Farm dude.

ENGINE OIL Recommended Engine Oil RECOMMENDED ENGINE OIL XPS 4-STROKE SYNTH. BLEND OIL (SUMMER) (P/N 293 600 121)
NOTE: The XPS oil is specially formulated and tested for the severe requirements of this engine. If not available, use a 5W 40 semi-synthetic (minimum) or synthetic motorcycle oil meeting the requirements for API service SJ or above classification. Always check the API service label on the oil container. The same oil is used for the engine, gearbox, clutch and hydraulic control module (HCM) in the SE6 models. NOTICE Do not use engine oil which is not designed specifically for motorcycle application (wet clutch). Automotive application oils contain friction modifiers which can lead to clutch slippage.

[Questions]

I just wanted to start by thanking the guys that are posting their results of oil tests for us all to see. Very useful information. Although I hope everyone does not think that these results will 100% apply to them. Every case will be different. Every rider is different. I am a big fan of testing your oils personally. Each person will have different results. I personally do not believe there is a such thing as "overkill" when it comes to protecting your engine from damage. Before we all decide to hang BRP based on these results, we need to remember that there is no way to test every situation, in every condition out there. Is there results perfect? Not even close. Is anyone else's? I would think not. I do not think they would put out a product that they do not believe in. As far as costs go, the more expensive an oil is doesn't necessarily result in a better oil for your machine. On the racing side of things, it is not uncommon to see oil in excess of $250 /gal. and the oil only be good for one qualifying session. When your oil tank holds 4 gallons, that gets expensive. But this oil is not worth a hoot in a regular vehicle. It was made to protect the engine at those extremes and be as thin as possible for the least amount of resistance, but only needed to last 10 miles. MFG's have to try and figure out a formula that will protect their engines in 1000's of different situations. Will some people need to change their oil less than 9600? Yes. But some may be able to go longer. This is where the "Recommended Service Interval" comes in. It is what they saw on average, from severe duty to light duty, the mileage that these machines will need serviced. Bottom line is, a recommendation is just that, a recommendation. It is in the end, up to us, the consumer, to do what we will, with these recommendations.

[Professor]

ENGINE OIL Recommended Engine Oil RECOMMENDED ENGINE OIL XPS 4-STROKE SYNTH. BLEND OIL (SUMMER) (P/N 293 600 121)
NOTE: The XPS oil is specially formulated and tested for the severe requirements of this engine. If not available, use a 5W 40 semi-synthetic (minimum) or synthetic motorcycle oil meeting the requirements for API service SJ or above classification. Always check the API service label on the oil container. The same oil is used for the engine, gearbox, clutch and hydraulic control module (HCM) in the SE6 models. NOTICE Do not use engine oil which is not designed specifically for motorcycle application (wet clutch). Automotive application oils contain friction modifiers which can lead to clutch slippage.

I understand the concern about the oil change interval, but I don't understand all the disagreement on the semi or full synthetic issue. Note the direct quote from the owner's manual that Ace so kindly posted says, "...use a 5W 40 semi-synthetic (minimum) or a synthetic motorcycle oil..." So the manual itself says either one is fine as long as it is motorcycle oil. What's all the arguing about? Am I missing something?

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I understand the concern about the oil change interval, but I don't understand all the disagreement on the semi or full synthetic issue. Note the direct quote from the owner's manual that Ace so kindly posted says, "...use a 5W 40 semi-synthetic (minimum) or a synthetic motorcycle oil..." So the manual itself says either one is fine as long as it is motorcycle oil. What's all the arguing about? Am I missing something?

....YES,....and so is Ace1330, ......JMHO.......Mike

[Professor]

....YES,....and so is Ace1330, ......JMHO.......Mike

Well Mike, no offense, but your answer is totally useless unless you tell me what I'm missing. If there is more to know, tell me what it is or where I can find out. I'm just trying to learn.