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  1. #51
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    If they're going to make the bike that much more complicated: why not just include a Technician with each purchase?

    And a driver also!
    Last edited by Bob Denman; 08-30-2017 at 01:46 PM.
    2010 RT A&C, RT-L, RT-L , Orbital Blue, Cognac, Jet Black

  2. #52
    Very Active Member wmh9680's Avatar
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    And a paaenger also. Then I could buy a new F# and ride with them. Mike
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  3. #53
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    If you look at what the industry is doing I can understand his comment. Tire sensors to monitor air pressure and the latest I heard really makes me wonder. A sensor for the back seat to remind you if you left someone in the car. Think about that one.

  4. #54
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    Thanks for posting this. I had no idea ... good thing the 1330 is a relatively tight engine in that regard.
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  5. #55
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    Default Yes! Well... maybe...

    Quote Originally Posted by scott16119 View Post
    Is there any internal combustion engine powered machine out there with a more complicated procedure to do such a normally simple task as checking the engine oil level?
    I recently purchased a 2017 F150 with a 2.9 liter twin turbo charged engine. You have to wait 10 minutes after shutting the engine down to get an accurate oil level reading.

  6. #56
    Ozzie Ozzie Ozzie Peter Aawen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacklab1059 View Post
    I recently purchased a 2017 F150 with a 2.9 liter twin turbo charged engine. You have to wait 10 minutes after shutting the engine down to get an accurate oil level reading.
    That is likely cos it's NOT a dry sump engine like our Spyders - so when the F150 engine is running some of the oil is pumped out of the sump & circulating thru the twin turbo's & other bits, doing what oil needs to do in all those other places it's needed... So it takes that 10 min or so of sitting time to allow all the oil to slooowly drain back into the sump before you can get an accurate reading from the oil level in the sump! If you check the level too early & top up with oil based on an erroneously low reading, you can end up with too much oil in the sump which can mean all sorts of nasty & engine destroying things might occur - things like the pistons hitting the virtually solid 'too high' oil pool surface/level at high velocity, or possibly even forcing oil up past the rings etc & filling the combustion chamber with non-compressible oil just before the engine tries to compress it!! Too much oil can do really nasty things to an engine, especially in a fairly high tech/fine tolerance engine that doesn't normally use much!! And that's even before you consider the risks posed by 'burnable quantities' of oil being forced past turbo shaft seals & ending up getting pumped into the combustion chamber with the charge air!! THAT can do REALLY NASTY stuff to a turbo'ed engine - like pistons hanging out the side of the block nasty... & that's only IF you are that lucky & the shattered lumps of metal leaving the block at high velocity haven't done much worse damage!!

    The 10 min idle down on our 'dry sump' Spyders is to let the various scavenge pumps put all the oil back where it's meant to be in the reservoir tank rather than having it settling in the sump or still caught up elsewhere in the works - while the 10 min wait after engine shut down on the 'wet sump' F150 is so the oil has enough time to properly drain back down into the sump where it's meant to be rather than having it caught up elsewhere in the works. Both methods are required simply due to the nature & design of that particular engine's oil storage & oil circulation systems - the different methods of storage & circulation used necessitate different level checking techniques! Both methods are aimed at making sure you have the correct volume of oil in your engine - significantly wrong volumes of oil can mean either excessive wear due to lack of lubrication/cooling (too little oil) or engine damage/destruction due to excessive non-compressible fluid being forced into spaces it shouldn't go in that quantity (too much oil)!

    It's simple really, even if it's sometimes a bit more complex to get the levels correct than you might like.
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  7. #57
    Very Active Member rcturner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saluda View Post
    If you look at what the industry is doing I can understand his comment. Tire sensors to monitor air pressure and the latest I heard really makes me wonder. A sensor for the back seat to remind you if you left someone in the car. Think about that one.
    There is only one reason that the industry does things like this. It is the brain dead operator who doesn't check his tires or remember he has a kid in the back seat. Don't blame the industry for these things. It is an operator issue.

  8. #58
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    I blamed someone ???

  9. #59
    Very Active Member Wildrice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRPcare View Post
    Hi everyone,
    There have been some questions on the right way for checking your oil on the 1330 engine. Below is the correct procedure:

    Given the oil system design of the 1330 engine, oil level verification must be done under specific conditions which can influence the quantity of measurable oil in the engine.

    These conditions are:

    • Engine oil temperature must be between 80°C and 95°C (176°F and 203°F) which is considered as being the engine's normal operating temperature. Don't mistake coolant temperature for engine oil temperature! Coolant will heat up faster than the engine oil.
    • Engine oil temperature is crucial since its volume changes based on temperature; that's enough to affect the measurable level.
    • Engine must idle 10 minutes. The 1330 engine is a dry sump design with 3 scavenge pumps and 1 pressure pump, 10 minutes of idle time allows the scavenge pumps to stabilize the quantity of oil returned.


    Complete oil level verification procedure:

    1. Bring engine to operating temperature.
    2. Ensure vehicle is on a level surface.
    3. Allow engine to idle for 10 minutes.
    4. Stop the engine.
    5. Within 2 minutes of stopping the engine:
      1. Remove and wipe the dipstick clean.
      2. Insert dipstick and completely screw it in.
      3. Remove dipstick and read oil level on dipstick.

    6. Adjust level as necessary without overfilling.


    Tips and Tricks:

    Here are 2 ways the crucial criteria can be reached:

    • An engine started cold (20°C or 68°F) will take approximately 25 minutes to reach oil level verification criteria (oil temperature and idle time). Oil level can be reliably verified when the radiator fans have cycled ON twice,

    or

    • The unit can be taken on a 15 km (9 mile) drive (normal riding) or a 6 km (4 mile) drive in 1st gear at 50 km/h (30 mph) which is approx at 4400 rpm THEN idled until the radiator fans have cycled ON twice.

    When performing an oil change on a cold engine, the above recommendations must be done to reach oil level verification criteria. When performing an oil change on a hot engine, the new oil will heat up faster since the engine is hot therefore letting the engine idle until 10 minutes or until the radiator fans have cycled ON twice indicates the oil level can be verified.
    We thus recommend checking the oil level at the end of a decent ride following the complete oil level verification procedure as outlined above.
    Nice procedure write up, however I have tried it & just riding & waiting 60 sc after shut down & found the levels identical--55 yrs of checking oil level, while the write up procedure is well done--I find it silly...
    Darrell
    Last edited by Wildrice; 12-28-2017 at 09:01 PM.
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  10. #60
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    Smile Oil level

    This 10 min. Idle is bull!! You just got through ridding several miles. What do you think those scavenging pumps were doing if not keeping the oil level correct?
    By the time you stop and shut off the motor ,the oil is all where its supposed to be! Just check it!!

  11. #61
    Very Active Member JayBros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluep View Post
    This 10 min. Idle is bull!! You just got through ridding several miles. What do you think those scavenging pumps were doing if not keeping the oil level correct?
    By the time you stop and shut off the motor ,the oil is all where its supposed to be! Just check it!!
    Then what you're saying if I understand you, is the engineers who designed the 1330 engine and have written the instructions on measuring the oil level are full of , correct?
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  12. #62
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    Default Is This Normal?

    After following the designated procedure to the best of my ability, I found either plenty of oil or almost no oil. I say this because after wiping my dipstick and reinserting it per the procedure, upon pulling it out, I found that it had oil on it up to the full line and yet there was very little of it from which to judge ... barely more than a film. No definitive line, just a tiny amount of oil all the way to the full line. I wiped it again and reinserted and had the same result a second time, so I'm thinking it must be okay. It's just scary because I've never seen so little oil on the dipstick when checking my car engines; usually it seems a lot more definitive than this. BTW my Spyder is almost new, about 700 miles. I was intending to take it in and have an early oil change anyway, but it just seems weird that there would be so little oil on the dipstick.
    2017 RTS , Blue

  13. #63
    Very Active Member JayBros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsimion View Post
    After following the designated procedure to the best of my ability, I found either plenty of oil or almost no oil...
    With just 700 miles on your Spyder the engine oil hasn't even had enough mileage on it for the oil to get dirty. Once you go through the first oil change at 3,000 miles, do it sooner if you like but it's not necessary, you'll see darker fluid on the dipstick. To verify do as others have suggested, lay the dipstick on a piece of clean paper towel and you'll get a very good reading of how much oil is in the engine.
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  14. #64
    Active Member guzzihack's Avatar
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    Is it just me or does it seem idiotic for manufacturers to make the dipstick near the same color as the oil? It's irritating enough having to have a "procedure" to check the oil level without making it difficult to read on the stick. And while I'm whining, doesn't it make more sense to check the oil "before" you go on a ryde? If you're low on oil, you may do something detrimental to the motor before you find out it's low. Like after you just did an oil change and aren't sure if you added enough. It seems engineers could do better. Just thinking out loud. Coke
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  15. #65
    Very Active Member BLUEKNIGHT911's Avatar
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    Default color and procedure

    Quote Originally Posted by guzzihack View Post
    Is it just me or does it seem idiotic for manufacturers to make the dipstick near the same color as the oil? It's irritating enough having to have a "procedure" to check the oil level without making it difficult to read on the stick. And while I'm whining, doesn't it make more sense to check the oil "before" you go on a ryde? If you're low on oil, you may do something detrimental to the motor before you find out it's low. Like after you just did an oil change and aren't sure if you added enough. It seems engineers could do better. Just thinking out loud. Coke
    My 998 dipstick was " ivory " ..... and if you check the level after a 10 min ride ( who goes for less time ??? ) it's going to be at Normal Operating Temp ........ Now you park it and wait 3 - 4 -10 days ...... WHAT do you think happens to the oil in the engine ???? - does it magically dis-appear ??? ..... No, it's exactly what it was when you checked it last .... I figured out over 9 years ago, the BRP method was seriously flawed TIMEWISE ...... BRP has to assume we are all to stupid or careless to remember when we last checked the level ....soooo after 100,000 miles of not wasting 10 min. and a lot of Gas , I figure about a week's worth of time & a lot of gas money .......... Mike
    Last edited by Peter Aawen; 03-13-2021 at 02:24 PM. Reason: Color

  16. #66
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    Default Oil level

    Quote Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911 View Post
    My 998 dipstick was " ivory " ..... and if you check the level after a 10 min ride ( who goes for less time ??? ) it's going to be at Normal Operating Temp ........ Now you park it and wait 3 - 4 -10 days ...... WHAT do you think happens to the oil in the engine ???? - does it magically dis-appear ??? ..... No, it's exactly what it was when you checked it last .... I figured out over 9 years ago, the BRP method was seriously flawed TIMEWISE ...... BRP has to assume we are all to stupid or careless to remember when we last checked the level ....soooo after 100,000 miles of not wasting 10 min. and a lot of Gas , I figure about a week's worth of time & a lot of gas money .......... Mike
    Right on!! These same engineers put the rear tire on my 2014 rt that was shot at 7300 mi. So l put a 215/60/15 Michelin , 95000 mi tire, which these engineers said NEVER do! Which is still on and has worked great at 87,000 mi now! You got to think a little on some of this stuff. Its the 10 min idle not right!!
    Those scavenger pumps been doing there scavenging your whole ride, they don't need 10 min after you stop!!!
    Last edited by Peter Aawen; 03-13-2021 at 02:24 PM.

  17. #67
    Very Active Member jcthorne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911 View Post
    My 998 dipstick was " ivory " ..... and if you check the level after a 10 min ride ( who goes for less time ??? ) it's going to be at Normal Operating Temp ........ Now you park it and wait 3 - 4 -10 days ...... WHAT do you think happens to the oil in the engine ???? - does it magically dis-appear ??? ..... No, it's exactly what it was when you checked it last .... I figured out over 9 years ago, the BRP method was seriously flawed TIMEWISE ...... BRP has to assume we are all to stupid or careless to remember when we last checked the level ....soooo after 100,000 miles of not wasting 10 min. and a lot of Gas , I figure about a week's worth of time & a lot of gas money .......... Mike

    Sorry but this actually does not work for a dry sump engine. The oil level in the tank where the dipstick is located, after a few days sitting. will be significantly lower than it was when you finished riding. Two things contribute to this, the temperature of the oil changes the volume of oil in the system, IE oil expands, and not by a small amount, as it heats from 50degF to 250degF. The second change in measured oil level is because oil slowly leaks back to the engine sump from the tank. This is much different than a wet sump engine like most automobiles where the oil simply drains back to the pan at the bottom of the engine. In a dry sump system, the oil tank is not the low point where the oil drains to over time.

    All this aside, the BRP Spyder owners manuals used to have 2 procedures for checking oil, one cold and one hot and it cause lots of confusion. I can tell you that a Spyder (998 or 1330) that has proper oil level at operating temp will be just at the bottom of the dipstick when cold. Not an exact measure but its great for a go / no go for a ride.
    Last edited by Peter Aawen; 03-13-2021 at 02:25 PM. Reason: Color

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  18. #68
    Very Active Member BLUEKNIGHT911's Avatar
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    Default Oil level

    Quote Originally Posted by jcthorne View Post
    Sorry but this actually does not work for a dry sump engine. The oil level in the tank where the dipstick is located, after a few days sitting. will be significantly lower than it was when you finished riding. Two things contribute to this, the temperature of the oil changes the volume of oil in the system, IE oil expands, and not by a small amount, as it heats from 50degF to 250degF. The second change in measured oil level is because oil slowly leaks back to the engine sump from the tank. This is much different than a wet sump engine like most automobiles where the oil simply drains back to the pan at the bottom of the engine. In a dry sump system, the oil tank is not the low point where the oil drains to over time.

    All this aside, the BRP Spyder owners manuals used to have 2 procedures for checking oil, one cold and one hot and it cause lots of confusion. I can tell you that a Spyder (998 or 1330) that has proper oil level at operating temp will be just at the bottom of the dipstick when cold. Not an exact measure but its great for a go / no go for a ride.
    I'm also sorry ..... because you didn't understand what I said ............ I said I checked the oil level after a ride AT REQUIRED ENGINE TEMP ........ For my next ride ( whenever ) has that level changed ??? and if you believe it has - Please tell me where some of that Oil has disappeared to ...... Thanks .... Mike
    Last edited by Peter Aawen; 03-13-2021 at 02:26 PM. Reason: Color

  19. #69
    Very Active Member jcthorne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911 View Post
    I'm also sorry ..... because you didn't understand what I said ............ I said I checked the oil level after a ride AT REQUIRED ENGINE TEMP ........ For my next ride ( whenever ) has that level changed ??? and if you believe it has - Please tell me where some of that Oil has disappeared to ...... Thanks .... Mike

    I did indeed understand what you wrote differently. No, the oil has not gone anywhere and if its right when you finish a ride, unless its all over the floor, its still right for the next ride. Checking at the end of each ride is likely the best way as its fully at temp and oil is in the tank where it belongs.
    Last edited by Peter Aawen; 03-13-2021 at 02:26 PM. Reason: Color

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  20. #70
    Very Active Member BLUEKNIGHT911's Avatar
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    Default OIL LEVEL

    Quote Originally Posted by jcthorne View Post
    I did indeed understand what you wrote differently. No, the oil has not gone anywhere and if its right when you finish a ride, unless its all over the floor, its still right for the next ride. Checking at the end of each ride is likely the best way as its fully at temp and oil is in the tank where it belongs.
    JC, if I re-typed EXACTLY what I typed the first time .....that wouldn't make sense .......... What I typed the second time meant Exactly what I typed the first time ......whatever ......But I see we do agree about when to check the oil level ....... Mike

  21. #71
    Very Active Member Wildrice's Avatar
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    Default Has any 1330 engine ever died because of lack of oil?

    Quote Originally Posted by BRPcare View Post
    Hi everyone,
    There have been some questions on the right way for checking your oil on the 1330 engine. Below is the correct procedure:

    Given the oil system design of the 1330 engine, oil level verification must be done under specific conditions which can influence the quantity of measurable oil in the engine.

    These conditions are:

    • Engine oil temperature must be between 80°C and 95°C (176°F and 203°F) which is considered as being the engine's normal operating temperature. Don't mistake coolant temperature for engine oil temperature! Coolant will heat up faster than the engine oil.
    • Engine oil temperature is crucial since its volume changes based on temperature; that's enough to affect the measurable level.
    • Engine must idle 10 minutes. The 1330 engine is a dry sump design with 3 scavenge pumps and 1 pressure pump, 10 minutes of idle time allows the scavenge pumps to stabilize the quantity of oil returned.


    Complete oil level verification procedure:

    1. Bring engine to operating temperature.
    2. Ensure vehicle is on a level surface.
    3. Allow engine to idle for 10 minutes.
    4. Stop the engine.
    5. Within 2 minutes of stopping the engine:
      1. Remove and wipe the dipstick clean.
      2. Insert dipstick and completely screw it in.
      3. Remove dipstick and read oil level on dipstick.

    6. Adjust level as necessary without overfilling.


    Tips and Tricks:

    Here are 2 ways the crucial criteria can be reached:

    • An engine started cold (20°C or 68°F) will take approximately 25 minutes to reach oil level verification criteria (oil temperature and idle time). Oil level can be reliably verified when the radiator fans have cycled ON twice,

    or

    • The unit can be taken on a 15 km (9 mile) drive (normal riding) or a 6 km (4 mile) drive in 1st gear at 50 km/h (30 mph) which is approx at 4400 rpm THEN idled until the radiator fans have cycled ON twice.

    When performing an oil change on a cold engine, the above recommendations must be done to reach oil level verification criteria. When performing an oil change on a hot engine, the new oil will heat up faster since the engine is hot therefore letting the engine idle until 10 minutes or until the radiator fans have cycled ON twice indicates the oil level can be verified.
    We thus recommend checking the oil level at the end of a decent ride following the complete oil level verification procedure as outlined above.
    The 1330 usually uses minimal oil--I've never heard of a blown engine because of oil shortage--soo why have a 15 min oil level check procedure.. Using the procedure or just waiting less than 60 seconds after returning with a warm engine--both oil levels appeared identical. Same as any other other engine I've owned--dry sump or not.
    Darrell
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  22. #72
    Very Active Member Woodaddict's Avatar
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    Default shout to BRP engineers

    WOULD there be any wireframe schematic of engine for us to look at to see how those scavenge pumps work, and whole oil system? BRP engineers??
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  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911 View Post
    JC, if I re-typed EXACTLY what I typed the first time .....that wouldn't make sense .......... What I typed the second time meant Exactly what I typed the first time ......whatever ......But I see we do agree about when to check the oil level ....... Mike
    Its not you Mike. I can be thick headed. Yes, I read it wrong the first time and got corrected. We do indeed agree, I just misunderstood.

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  24. #74
    Very Active Member JayBros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodaddict View Post
    WOULD there be any wireframe schematic of engine for us to look at to see how those scavenge pumps work, and whole oil system? BRP engineers??
    There is an extensive narrative description of how the oil pressure pump and three scavenge pumps work in the service manual. Unfortunately, at least for my slow brain, it means you first have to study the various engine diagrams to understand where the pumps are and how they are pumping oil where.

    Interestingly, there is the warning note below that perhaps some dipstick checkers may be overlooking when checking the oil level. The note is preceded by step #3 that says the engine must be at normal operating temperature and run at idle for at least 30 seconds.

    "NOTE: Running engine for at least 30 seconds allows the scavenge oil pumps to drain the oil from the engine back into the oil tank. Not carrying out this step could result in overfilling the engine." (my emphasis)

    Elsewhere in the SL compendium of how and why the lubrication system works the way it does there has been a warning and some discussion about power loss due to overfilled engines. My personal, nonengineer opinion on why the procedure posted by BRPCare at the beginning of this thread is written the way it is, namely the 10 minute running time at idle, is because the pressure pump delivers pressurized oil to different locations of the engine at different volumes and the scavenge pumps return oil to the oil tank at different volumes so the 10 minute factor gives the whole lubrication system the time to equalize and return as much oil as possible to the oil tank on a consistent basis. For me the 10 minutes is a nonissue because while the Spyder sits idling in the garage for 10 min I'm getting out of and storing my ATGATT duds. Just my anal routine for caring for my investment.
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  25. #75
    Active Member SkipH's Avatar
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    I went out to the garage and started the Can am and idled it for 5 minutes, turned off and pulled the dip stick, wiped it of and inserted it again - pulled it out and the dip stick read 3/4th to 7/8ths, good enough check for me.....
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