BRP Spyder investigation started. What will happen?

[M109Dreamer]

I took a heat reading with a infrared thermometer on mine after a short ride on cooler temps the left side panel had a pretty high temp and the bottom bolt for the side panel was very hot and that's where my leg hits and has burned my leg through pants

Yeah, my wife always geta burns on the inside of her calves and thighs.

[robmorg]

Just going to toss out some fix ideas for the RT.

....I think this is a good start any other ideas? We all know the source is unvented heat under the Tupperware. Protect better and Vent better is the solution IMHO.

Dave,

I think that's a very good start. I especially like #5, the venturi vented underbody covers. Wonder how well that would work? With cooling in mind, I'd add two more.... First redesign the entire intake system to allow more air flow around the top of the engine, and also add reflective heat shields to the underside of all side and upper panels between the handlebars and the rear storage module.

[taxmyzer]

I for one would like to have less heat since heat & fuel don't play well. I think BRP can come up with a solution for a lot less than what we all lost in value due to this issue. BRP knows there is a serious problem because they don't want these bikes & neither do the dealers. BRP's best option here would be to fix the problem and make things right no matter the cost. The longer they delay the more their public image gets hurt. Once this really gets out in the press you'll see the big name stars that have been pitching their product pull away. Big name stars don't want to be seen as the face of a bad product.

[Buzzatronic]

Just got back from a ride of less than an hour in 70 degree weather and it still smells of strong gas fumes. When I parked it (in front of a box fan running at max) I used my temp gun to spot check for hot spots. Other than the expected heat on the exhaust system, the only other place I was getting high readings was the gas cap area (plastic) and the gas tank itself (seen through the small hole from the right side of the bike with the seat up). Here are my readings:

gas cap area with box fan on: 140
gas cap area with box fan off: 160 (within 10 seconds of turning off the fan)
gas tank (metal) with box fan off: 163.5

As I was taking readings I could actually HEAR the gas boiling and at one point I heard a hiss, the boiling sound stopped and within a few seconds, ultra strong gas smell.

Seems to me that the gas is boiling really easily and creating significant fumes/pressure in the tank which at some point gets vented out.

I bought the spyder as my car replacement and gave my wife our only real car. If I can't actually ride this thing because of this, I'll have a serious problem.

[Vrooom]

I would be interested in knowing how the police rode that burned Spyder: mileage ,speed,length of time at idle, average daily usage, anything else that might relate. It may give the rest of us an idea about when ours will go up in flames.

[ThreeWheels]

Not to wish anything bad on anyone, but if one of the police RT's lost the windshield dog bone arm, we might get some action from BRP.

[PMK]

Being a total wise ass, and I do feel for those with these machines.

My guess is there will be a recall, the recall will involve a supplemental page in the owners manual on how to operate the recall installed fire extinguisher.

I don't ride or own a 2013 or earlier machine. My opinion is that running the exhaust as they did inside the bodywork is a contributing factor.

If I were to guess on a fix, entire new exhaust system minimum and maybe some body panels / heat shields. If they go with electric fans, they complicate the systems and failure of the fans reintroduces the problem.

The fuel leak is not the problem, the heat is. The fuel and fires are a result of heat. Dissipate the heat and the fuel problems should be gone.

BRP is no doubt having discussions and maybe sweating bullets behind closed doors. They are trying to balance many things. Send out an emergency notification not to ride your machine...pray noone gets seriously hurt or killed, either while riding or upon parking within a garage...and what options do they have to resolve the problem with the least cost.

Not yet mentioned, large corporations frown on negative exposure. In some odd way, and it has been done before in other industries, BRP could pull the plug on all Spyders, buy them all back and turn the page. This is Bombardier, overall, a money making machine, never seen it have much of a personal side.

I hope BRP is testing to the point of starting one ablaze, seeing the source of the fire, but also closely monitoring and documenting temps as the machine idles in traffic, is ridden and after shutdown.

All the best with it BRP, nothing worse than solving problems with big brother overseeing your actions.

PK

[joebryanjr]

I have not seen this mentioned. I wonder if any of these burned Spyders had modifications done. I have seen notes about adding deflectors to keep the heat away from the driver. Could this contribute to added heat under the tupperware? There may be other contributing factors, as well.
That said, the Spyders should be designed to not need those extra deflectors and be comfortable to drive-oh and by the way, not catch fire.

[sddinnh]

IMHO, the first thing they should do is STOP SELLING LEFTOVER 2013's. The 2014's do not have this problem, but people are still being seduced into buying the 2013's because of not doing their research on the problem and the price differential created by the discounts. While it's true that not all 2013's have the problem, it was serious enough to cause me to back off the deal on a 2013 and opt for a 2014 instead. Of course the bigger engine, six speed, and better gas milage didn't hurt either

[Pennyrick]

My take on this is that this is what BRP has been waiting for.

They have known all along that they had to fix it.

Had they tried to tackle the problem earlier the investigation would still happen.
There would still be recommendations and requirements imposed on them.
After the investigation they will be able to handle the problem in a sanctioned way.
It's cheaper to do it this way.

It kind of sucks but that's the reality of it.

I agree with Roger. When companies are trying to keep the lawyers at bay, (both private and governmental) they need to find out "what do they know and when did they find out about it". Therefore the best posture is to wait until all the cards are laid on the table before they make their play.

[robmorg]

I have not seen this mentioned. I wonder if any of these burned Spyders had modifications done. I have seen notes about adding deflectors to keep the heat away from the driver. Could this contribute to added heat under the tupperware?

I'd like to know that as well. That is exactly why I chose to ignore the right foot heat problem when I took steps to resolve the heat coming up around the seat. I wanted to avoid redirecting any heat from the radiator back under the cowlings. I am satisfied to let that heat come out by my right foot, where it doesn't bother me nearly so much.

[robmorg]

My take on this is that this is what BRP has been waiting for.

They have known all along that they had to fix it.

Had they tried to tackle the problem earlier the investigation would still happen.
There would still be recommendations and requirements imposed on them.
After the investigation they will be able to handle the problem in a sanctioned way.
It's cheaper to do it that way.

Roger, I agree that makes a lot of sense.
Let's hope you're right.

[hchays]

I know that the majority on SpyderLovers is complaining about the 2013 RT's. Well I can tell you have the same issue with my 2013 RS. I've had to add a "heat resistant" insulation to the inside of the body panels just to ride it in hotter weather. I also get the strong gas fume smell (mostly noticed when parked after a long ride in warm weather). However I have something that I have not heard from anyone else. After riding in warmer weather I have a hard time adding gas. The gas pump keeps shutting off as if it's over-filling. Yet when I manually keep clicking the handle and get about a gallon of cool gas in it fills automatically just fine. That to me is proof that the gas is boiling and creating the fumes. From what I understand the fumes at a high level could trick the pump into thinking it is over-filling and cause it to shut off. I just filled a complaint with the NHTSA in hope of getting some help. I know others have as well, but I feel if I don't speak up I have no chance of getting help.

[oldgoat]

It made the Business section of today's Montreal Gazette. No doubt Canada will wait while the US investigates & then follow whatever recommendations you make (that's the way it's done up here!)Spyder investigation.jpg

[oldguyinTX]

I have filed two complaints with NHTSA, and sent two Emails to them as well asking them to open an investigation about the heat/gas fume issues. I think that a previous poster my be correct in his opinion that it took a Spyder ridden by a LEO to get the investigation going, but at least it has been started, and just maybe we will finally see some serious action on the part of BRP to finally address these known issues. We can always hope that BRP will finally do the right thing.

[oldguyinTX]

BTW, this was mentioned in the Saturday 8/9 Business section of the NY Times, page B3.

[SpyderAnn01]

My take on this is that this is what BRP has been waiting for.

They have known all along that they had to fix it.

Had they tried to tackle the problem earlier the investigation would still happen.
There would still be recommendations and requirements imposed on them.
After the investigation they will be able to handle the problem in a sanctioned way.
It's cheaper to do it this way.

It kind of sucks but that's the reality of it.

They avoided an investigation last year because they proposed the fix (wrapping the melting parts) and it was accepted by NHTSA. You say they have known all along that they had to fix it but don't you think that they actually thought wrapping was the fix?

I have not seen this mentioned. I wonder if any of these burned Spyders had modifications done. I have seen notes about adding deflectors to keep the heat away from the driver. Could this contribute to added heat under the tupperware? There may be other contributing factors, as well.
That said, the Spyders should be designed to not need those extra deflectors and be comfortable to drive-oh and by the way, not catch fire.

I had removed one of the bottom panels that make it easier to change the oil but no other modifications. Dat Guy had wrapped his pipes.

I agree with Roger. When companies are trying to keep the lawyers at bay, (both private and governmental) they need to find out "what do they know and when did they find out about it". Therefore the best posture is to wait until all the cards are laid on the table before they make their play.

The NHTSA knew last year when BRP told them about the 3 fires.

[PMK]

Those that are posting that a situation from a police bike made this happen could be correct to some extent. Wasn't a police officer involved in the deaths for the Toyota gas pedal recall stuff

Whatever happens, I certainly am glad to not be a part of those meetings at BRP.

PK

[JkRbbt]

Anne says,
"They avoided an investigation last year because they proposed the fix (wrapping the melting parts) and it was accepted by NHTSA. You say they have known all along that they had to fix it but don't you think that they actually thought wrapping was the fix? "

Respectfully, Anne, I believe they HOPED it was the fix, but did not KNOW if it would be a fix. BRP has known about heat issues for a long time. If they hadn't, they wouldn't have packed the glove box so full of insulation that it is virtually unusable. In my estimation, it was a corporate rush to market that created a 2014 machine with 2012 innards for 2013. Corporations have no conscience, just book keepers!

[Buzzatronic]

Does anyone have an email address for Can-Am so I can send them a copy of the NHTSA complaint I filed today to get it on record with them? Their website contact form fails every time I try and send them email.

[MikeinGA]

BRP should replace the panels on ALL RS's from the 2008 to the 2013 and all the fuel lines from 2008 to 2013. I put fuel line heat rap on me fuel lines. The fuel line should be replaced every 5 years on all motorcycles. That's IMHO.

Mike

not only fuel lines...my ST's spark plug wires started fall apart...made the bike have 800 to 2000 rpm's at idle.....when it hits under 1000rpm's it beeps...all this happened in a nano second.....so anything rubber will need replacing.....fuel lines being most important......I have a 2 page list of all my problems....no one wants to go there again....as of now my bike is running good.....but it took over a year of fighting for what I knew the ST needed......NHSTA has 31 complaints on 2013 RT...12 on 2013 Spyder and 9 on ST's.....4 of those complaints are mine....if you have a problem with your 2013 go to www.nhsta.gov

I didn't think of the spark plug wires, I replaced mine at before I had 3,000 miles on my RS-S with BajaRon wires. I always change my spark wires on my cars and truck every 60,000 miles or 6 years. A quick fix to the fire & heat problem is to take off the upper & lower side panels on the RS & ST models. That's IMHO.


Mike

[rgk]

You undoubtedly know more about this than I do, but either BRP had their collective heads in the sand or in some other dark place or there was some sort of an understanding that these fires would be investigated and requirements imposed.

I don't happen to think that the decision makers at BRP were simply clueless to the procedures.
But that is pure speculation because I doubt if anyone on the payroll would say "Sure we knew the things caught fire but were waiting to be investigated because then our liability would be limited to the fixes proposed."

The recall laws, unless changed recently, actually protects the companies with limited liabilty and switches the liability to the Federal Government which has to agree to be sued.

I think that the reason that the investigation has proceeded slowly is the absence of injuries and/or deaths associated with these fires. It is fair to say, IMO, that most Sypder operators are equipped with a better developed sense of situational awareness than most other operators of motor vehicles. Such situational awareness has relegated these fires to easily settled property damage claims that BRP can manage with a well placed check...if the matter gets to subrogation. Otherwise the insurer takes the loss and the matter is closed.

Unless these losses start to involve injury and/or death, there will be little impetus to offer a dramatic remedy and I expect that whatever remedy is offered will be less than fully satisfying. Consider also, the large number of vehicles that have performed well and the correspondingly large number of miles that they have been driven. Length/quantity of satisfactory usage will mitigate the value of an owners perceived claim.

As a long time operator of conventional motorcycles, and a habitual purchaser of accessories of dubious value, I have always been a bit concerned that a non OEM accessory could be used by a manufacturer to deny a warranty claim or to allow the assertion that the accessory caused/exacerbated the defect that is complained of.

I am concerned that Spyder operators who share my addiction to aftermarket accessories could find themselves without or with limited recourse. Accordingly, I have decided to use dealer installed OEM accessories only unless my dealer installs the non OEM part. This is not a negative comment directed at BRP. I think that the complexity of these new high end recreational products, in some cases, exceeds that of some automobiles and many of us stopped working on cars years ago.

[Pirate looks at --]

So this pretty much sucks. My 2012 RTS is less than 3 weeks old and I have significant gas fume issues and the only parking I have for it is my in-house garage.

Basically this investigation means I have to worry even more about a) the bike catching fire while I'm riding it or b) the bike catching fire after I park it, burning down my house as well.

Yeah, not pleased at all right now. :/

Buzz, don't let the negative talk get you down. There have been some issues, not so much with 2012, but with 2013. Most people have no problems, and the chances are you won't either. I was told that it is a best practice to shut your engine down with the kill switch and not the key. This will shut off the fuel pump and help reduce some of that gas smell. Not too sure of the validity of that but, I don't have any gas smell even after doing 345 miles two up on Thursday. Enjoy the ryde and see what happens with this investigation. Just look at the statistics posted in this thread, and realize that your chances of having a serious issue are pretty slim. It will be interesting to see what happens here.

[SpyderAnn01]

Anne says,
"They avoided an investigation last year because they proposed the fix (wrapping the melting parts) and it was accepted by NHTSA. You say they have known all along that they had to fix it but don't you think that they actually thought wrapping was the fix? "

Respectfully, Anne, I believe they HOPED it was the fix, but did not KNOW if it would be a fix. BRP has known about heat issues for a long time. If they hadn't, they wouldn't have packed the glove box so full of insulation that it is virtually unusable. In my estimation, it was a corporate rush to market that created a 2014 machine with 2012 innards for 2013. Corporations have no conscience, just book keepers!

I agree that they HOPED it was the fix. I have said all along that it was simply a band-aid which has apparently lost it's stickiness. I'd just like to believe that BRP thought the recall would keep any more Spyders from burning.

[SpyderAnn01]

Just got back from a ride of less than an hour in 70 degree weather and it still smells of strong gas fumes. When I parked it (in front of a box fan running at max) I used my temp gun to spot check for hot spots. Other than the expected heat on the exhaust system, the only other place I was getting high readings was the gas cap area (plastic) and the gas tank itself (seen through the small hole from the right side of the bike with the seat up). Here are my readings:

gas cap area with box fan on: 140
gas cap area with box fan off: 160 (within 10 seconds of turning off the fan)
gas tank (metal) with box fan off: 163.5

As I was taking readings I could actually HEAR the gas boiling and at one point I heard a hiss, the boiling sound stopped and within a few seconds, ultra strong gas smell.

Seems to me that the gas is boiling really easily and creating significant fumes/pressure in the tank which at some point gets vented out.

I bought the spyder as my car replacement and gave my wife our only real car. If I can't actually ride this thing because of this, I'll have a serious problem.

Buzz, don't let the negative talk get you down. There have been some issues, not so much with 2012, but with 2013. Most people have no problems, and the chances are you won't either. I was told that it is a best practice to shut your engine down with the kill switch and not the key. This will shut off the fuel pump and help reduce some of that gas smell. Not too sure of the validity of that but, I don't have any gas smell even after doing 345 miles two up on Thursday. Enjoy the ryde and see what happens with this investigation. Just look at the statistics posted in this thread, and realize that your chances of having a serious issue are pretty slim. It will be interesting to see what happens here.

Buzz, the Pirate is right your chances of having your Spyder burn up are pretty slim. But you need to make sure that you do not overfill your Spyder, if you do you are filling the evap canister which will cause the fumes. Also, did you buy your Spyder from a dealer? Do you know if you have the replacement gas cap? They sent replacement caps over a year ago that were supposed to help with your problems.