Connecticut Licensing Requirements for operators of 3-wheeled vehicles

[mindman]

Hi All,
As some of you know, I've been informally / occasionally working to change the way the state of Connecticut licenses operators of 3-wheeled vehicles and specifically Can-AM spyders since 2010. My ultimate goal is for CT to require only a driver's license to be able to legally operate a spyder on the road, but that's the end state. Short term I want the state to begin treating these as the unique vehicles they are and stop simply lumping them into the motorcycle category. Now that I'm retired I can spend more time on it.

Working with one of our state representatives, I've finally made some progress and am planning to use this thread to keep anyone who's interested updated. Here's what's happening:

- The DOT and DMV are working together to make it possible for new riders to take the basic rider education (MSF) course and test on 3 wheels. They are in the process of obtaining two (unspecified) 3 wheelers for this purpose. The hope is that this will be put in place within a year. So great news there !

- With Lamont's help, I've also spoken with A Senior Adviser in BRP's government relations area (lobbyist) and we have developed a strategy to not only move this forward, but to continue efforts towards the ultimate goal. This adviser has already been in contact with one of our state senators, and he is positively inclined towards working on this with us.

Next Steps:
We will be contacting these individuals to discuss where to go from here. There are a few things we have in mind for how to do this. Once we have some firm next steps I'll send out an update.

[Vidman]

pm me if there is anyway I can be of help.

[Chupaca]

lived there for 9 years but did not get the roadster till we got to San Diego. As you know here you just need a drivers licence. I have a motorcycle one as well alway have. Curious though, if in a state requiring an endorsement or motorcycle license how would they deal with a CA driver with auto license only..?? Great work you are getting it done...

[SPYD3R]

look up the South Carolina law on 3 wheelers... it passed sometime around '08 or '09.... maybe you can adopt ours to fit your needs....
it works for us..... I'll email my State Senator and ask him to provide me with a copy of the law, and i'll pass it on to you....
good luck...
Dan P
Easley, SC
SPYD3R

[mindman]

pm me if there is anyway I can be of help.

You got it Vidman!

[SpydermanCT]

Thanks for your efforts and please keep us posted

[Eagle1]

Very good, keep us posted.

[jcthorne]

I offer a dissenting opinion and one that you will likely encounter frequently in your endeavor.

I do not support a further lowering of the driving skills / licencing requirements for Spyder owners or for any vehicle type. We need MORE STRINGENT training and licencing requirements. We have far too many untrained and poor drivers on the road already. Your proposed plan would make this problem worse.

Just my opinion.

[Vidman]

I offer a dissenting opinion and one that you will likely encounter frequently in your endeavor.

I do not support a further lowering of the driving skills / licencing requirements for Spyder owners or for any vehicle type. We need MORE STRINGENT training and licencing requirements. We have far too many untrained and poor drivers on the road already. Your proposed plan would make this problem worse.

Just my opinion.

I am in agreement. I do not support a regular car operator's license requirement. However, a course and test for 3 wheel vehicles over the 2 wheel motorcycles is in order.

People have gone to 3 wheel vehicles for a reason. Some for medical and/or disability reasons. By not responding to this need a State is guilty of discrimination.

Any "old time" motorcycle riders who have taken the Motorcycle Safety Course or the Advanced Motorcycle Safety course have claimed they were surprised to learn something.

[mindman]

Got a call yesterday from Land N' Sea Marine in Waterbury. They have a long history of working on this and heard about our efforts from a contact in BRP. They are excited about this and want to be involved and to participate in any demos, provide loaners to the State, or whatever else they can do to help!
Also, BRP has sent a letter to the senator and representative involved offering them 2 free loaners. Work also continues towards demo days sometime in Sept.

[mindman]

I am in agreement. I do not support a regular car operator's license requirement. However, a course and test for 3 wheel vehicles over the 2 wheel motorcycles is in order.

People have gone to 3 wheel vehicles for a reason. Some for medical and/or disability reasons. By not responding to this need a State is guilty of discrimination.

Any "old time" motorcycle riders who have taken the Motorcycle Safety Course or the Advanced Motorcycle Safety course have claimed they were surprised to learn something.

I think that a 3 wheel endorsement is in fact the most likely scenario. I've been thinking about this after your comments and while I believe that from a technical perspective there are no additional skills needed for a Spyder than a car, BUT...you're right - special training on 3 wheels should be mandatory for the endorsement. I also think it would be a major mistake for the state to grant a plain old motorcycle endorsement when the rider has only the skills needed for a 3 wheeler.

Coincidentally, BRP has developed a 3 wheel course for the MSF and it is being used. When the timing is right I plan to bring this up with the state and also plan to volunteer to become certified as an instructor, and to help set up the program.

[jcthorne]

Go take the MSF course and come back and let us know if you still feel there are no special skills need to ride a Spyder vs driving a car. you are dead wrong and promoting such is going to get folks killed.

If you want to ride a 3 wheel Spyder, you need to learn to ride one and demonstrate your proficiency to do so before being granted the privilege. The Spyder is a motorcycle, not a car. So says the DOT and for very good reasons. Even BRP does not want them classified as cars, they would cease production if that happened as they cannot meet those requirements.

[Vidman]

I think that a 3 wheel endorsement is in fact the most likely scenario. I've been thinking about this after your comments and while I believe that from a technical perspective there are no additional skills needed for a Spyder than a car, BUT...you're right - special training on 3 wheels should be mandatory for the endorsement. I also think it would be a major mistake for the state to grant a plain old motorcycle endorsement when the rider has only the skills needed for a 3 wheeler.

Coincidentally, BRP has developed a 3 wheel course for the MSF and it is being used. When the timing is right I plan to bring this up with the state and also plan to volunteer to become certified as an instructor, and to help set up the program.

I truly believe the 3 wheel endorsement is the way to go in lieu of a MC Endorsement.

I am aware of the 3 wheel course for the MSF. I spoke to Pat Cruess on Saturday about this. He is an instructor for MSF at Tunxis. He is the guy who pushed successfully for a Scooter course. He sees the need for 3 wheel course. I hope he can push on that end.

[Highwayman2013]

They have a separate 3 wheel course in Pa that my wife has taken. It was MSF and now she has the endorsement on her license. I have a motorcycle endorsement so I am good for both. Our training is free and we can get our license on the spot.

[mindman]

They have a separate 3 wheel course in Pa that my wife has taken. It was MSF and now she has the endorsement on her license. I have a motorcycle endorsement so I am good for both. Our training is free and we can get our license on the spot.

Good to know. thanks!

[joebryanjr]

My concern is that driving a car is not similar to ryding a Spyder. In MO you need a motorcycle endorsement. You take the written (laws and rules) test. If you take the MSF BRC you do not need to take an additional riding test. This way you lean the differences in riding a motorcycle (2 or 3 wheels).

I took the class on 2 wheels (spyders exceed the engine size allowed for the class). I like this approach better than allowing riders with just an automobile drivers license.

In California, I believe, you can ride a spyder without an additional endorsement.

[mindman]

My concern is that driving a car is not similar to ryding a Spyder. In MO you need a motorcycle endorsement. You take the written (laws and rules) test. If you take the MSF BRC you do not need to take an additional riding test. This way you lean the differences in riding a motorcycle (2 or 3 wheels).

I took the class on 2 wheels (spyders exceed the engine size allowed for the class). I like this approach better than allowing riders with just an automobile drivers license.

In California, I believe, you can ride a spyder without an additional endorsement.

CT is the same as MO - which is why I'm pursuing this. We require successful completion of the MSF course. That's fine because you learn about things like lane position, the importance of riding gear, etc. The problem is that in CT you must take the MSF course on two wheels. There are many people who don't want to, or can't take the course on two wheels. My wife for example has bad knees. She can't support a two wheeler. My initial goal is for the state to allow taking the course and test on 3 wheels. I would also like to see the state implement a 3 wheel specific course and test.
My personal opinion is that from a physical skills level there's really not much difference between a car and a spyder, but that's just my opinion. I believe that with a little practice in a parking lot, most people that can drive a car can ride a spyder perfectly well. the main adjustment is in steering response which again - in my opinion is easily adapted to.

As a result of some of the comments here, I've changed my mind in that I no longer believe the goal should be to allow people to ride a spyder with only a normal driver's license (thank you all for your well thought-out statements). The reality is that we need to ensure that practice happens and the only way to do that is to implement a course specifically for 3 wheelers. This, combined with the knowledge that the MSF course teaches should give us a pretty good expectation that new riders are adequately prepared.

[Vidman]

CT is the same as MO - which is why I'm pursuing this. We require successful completion of the MSF course. That's fine because you learn about things like lane position, the importance of riding gear, etc. The problem is that in CT you must take the MSF course on two wheels. There are many people who don't want to, or can't take the course on two wheels. My wife for example has bad knees. She can't support a two wheeler. My initial goal is for the state to allow taking the course and test on 3 wheels. I would also like to see the state implement a 3 wheel specific course and test.
My personal opinion is that from a physical skills level there's really not much difference between a car and a spyder, but that's just my opinion. I believe that with a little practice in a parking lot, most people that can drive a car can ride a spyder perfectly well. the main adjustment is in steering response which again - in my opinion is easily adapted to.

As a result of some of the comments here, I've changed my mind in that I no longer believe the goal should be to allow people to ride a spyder with only a normal driver's license (thank you all for your well thought-out statements). The reality is that we need to ensure that practice happens and the only way to do that is to implement a course specifically for 3 wheelers. This, combined with the knowledge that the MSF course teaches should give us a pretty good expectation that new riders are adequately prepared.

Right behind you in all this.
We all also know that 1000 miles behind the handlebars is the answer to Spyder operation comfort and skill.
Basics in MC safety like the MSF course is awesome and the reason most states have adopted this course.

[bullant12]

Go take the MSF course and come back and let us know if you still feel there are no special skills need to ride a Spyder vs driving a car. you are dead wrong and promoting such is going to get folks killed.

If you want to ride a 3 wheel Spyder, you need to learn to ride one and demonstrate your proficiency to do so before being granted the privilege. The Spyder is a motorcycle, not a car. So says the DOT and for very good reasons. Even BRP does not want them classified as cars, they would cease production if that happened as they cannot meet those requirements.

MSF has a strong reputation with safety (hence it's name Motorcycle Safety Foundation) and I think that the course will be very similar to the regular MSF basic 2 wheel course. If that were not the case, MSF would have not gotten involved, period. I do agree with what you are saying, "you need to learn to walk before you learn to run", but I believe that the idea is not making riding easier, but making it easier for future Spyder owners obtain their skills without having to get on 2 wheels. When I took the trike training course by GWRRA, it was a refresher course on MSF basics, but with the 3rd wheel in mind.

[daveinva]

My opinion, FWIW:

1. You should not be allowed to operate a Spyder on a car license. Too different. At the very least, the safety/responsibilities of riding an exposed vehicle should require separate education/testing. For example, the MSF BRC addresses those items, while auto education/testing does not.

2. You should be allowed to operate a Spyder on a 2-wheeler license. Learning to ride a motorcycle is harder than riding a Spyder, but the majority of the skills, safety considerations and riding laws translate. Yes, you need practice to become a good Spyder rider, but that's not an onerous requirement.

3. There should be a separate 3-wheel designation on licenses that can be obtained by testing on the Spyder. This should grant you the ability to ride 3 wheels, but not 2. You can go from two-wheels to three in an afternoon; going from three-wheels to two takes a LOT more work (FYI, I hope to have a big fun post on that topic in a few days ).

Virginia used to have one M license that covered everything. I got my M license in 2011 taking a 3-wheel course on a Spyder (Evergreen Motorcycle Training offered a class comparable to the MSF BRC). By Virginia law, I had a motorcycle license, I could legally operate two-wheels just the same as a Spyder (or conventional trike, or hack-- note, a hack doesn't ride like a Spyder either!).

In 2013, Virginia switched to three separate licenses: M, M2 and M3. M2 allows you to ride two-wheels, M3 allows three, and M allows both (you need to pass both a separate 2-wheel and a 3-wheel course/test, however).

Personally, I think that's overkill-- again, IMO M2 should cover bikes *and* trikes-- but that's the way the law works, so there ya go.

Bottom line: I support distinct licensing, at least in part, and I'd rather have the cumbersome distinct licensing like they have in Virginia versus no distinctions at all.

More to come on this, hopefully this weekend

[NicotineJesus]

I live in NY down on Long Island (three days a week) and work in CT (living there the four days I'm at work). I still hold a CT license since I still own property there (and insurance rates in NY border on the criminal) and have my "M" endorsement. My wife has a NY license and wants to get her own Spyder. Down in NY they offer a modified "M" that allows the use of three wheelers. She will road test on my bike. A graduated license system seems to be the best way to go in CT and just from looking at the manual ,on the CT DMV web site, it has a full section on three wheel bikes which in the past it never had. Seems to me they're slowly working towards that goal.

[ctpaddler2000]

The Polaris SlingShot three wheeler will be coming out soon. We will have to see if CT will allow it.

[Vidman]

The Polaris SlingShot three wheeler will be coming out soon. We will have to see if CT will allow it.

We discussed that yesterday. Don't hold your breath. CT has never allowed 3 wheel cars to be registered. If you sit "IN" it then its a car. "On" it then it is a motorcycle.

[ctpaddler2000]

We discussed that yesterday. Don't hold your breath. CT has never allowed 3 wheel cars to be registered. If you sit "IN" it then its a car. "On" it then it is a motorcycle.

Polaris only has a teaser video out on the Slingshot so far. My local Polaris dealer was the one who told me about it so that is why I thought it might have a chance in CT. Regardless looks like one is better off with a Miata or a Wrangler over a first generator SlingShot.

[ctpaddler2000]

More important to this thread, Vidman needs to changes his tagline.