2015 RS, RSS, ST Spyder

[SNOOPY]

So am I right in thinking that BRP produces the Rotax engines, but doesn't just use them in their vehicles they sell them to other manufacturers as well?


What I mean is that Aprilla isn't associated w/ BRP right?

[SpyderRx]

They've still got RED available now...

I do not believe the 2013 or 2014 ST has been offered in red at any trim level.

[SpyderRx]

Does the small sample size of votes in this pole just show moreover the popularity of the RT or is it that our RS and ST guys and gals just aren't voting?

[SNOOPY]

I'm guessing not as many RS and ST owners on here, soon it will be 95% Cognac RT owners... Lol

[PistonBlown]

So am I right in thinking that BRP produces the Rotax engines, but doesn't just use them in their vehicles they sell them to other manufacturers as well?


What I mean is that Aprilla isn't associated w/ BRP right?

Rotax is an Austrian company that's part of the BRP group so yes they own the engines. However there are a number of bikes that use the engines including Aprila, which we tend to know because its the same engine as ours, but also BMW, Kawasaki and probably quite a few others.

My feelings on this from an RS owners point of view and as posted before - not sure how well the 1330 engine would suit the RS. It would add weight and width and the HP/Torque didn't sound right.

It would be nice to see BRP use this engine to produce a cruiser/streetfighter model that looked a bit like a Triumph Rocket III, the engine sounded like it would be good for that.

For the RS I'd prefer a race mode option and I'm sure there's a lot more power that could be had from the current engine configuration. I suspect heat will be the issue, particularly on the rear cylinder.

[SNOOPY]

I remember Rotax being produced in Austria from my days of owning many Seadoos, just thought at the time it was a subsidiary of Bombardier. Thanks for clearing it up.

[Mo Lee]

I've always liked the smooth power of 6 or more cylinders, 3 would be a step in the right direction.

[Bob Denman]

One thing's for sure...
There have been, and will be; test mules out there running hwatever new setup that they want to run through their paces...

[Raptor]

Originally I voted yes I would like to see the 1330 in the RS. But this was really a knee-jerk reaction. After thinking about it for a wile I think it would be far better to just unleash what the V990 is actually capable of power-wise and keep the weight down. or even a revamped 1125 helicon engine that would deliver not only better HP but better torque as well, and it would still fit easily fit in it's frame, which should be re-engineered in Alloy to bring weight down even further. I have always been disappointed by how badly neutered the V990 turned out to be. I think a lot has been left on the table with this platform, from power to handling.

So for the ST/RT platforms, the Ace engine would be great and probably more appropriate. But for the sport guys, an 1125 and some re-engineering makes more sense.

[BajaRon]

Originally I voted yes I would like to see the 1330 in the RS. But this was really a knee-jerk reaction. After thinking about it for a wile I think it would be far better to just unleash what the V990 is actually capable of power-wise and keep the weight down. or even a revamped 1125 helicon engine that would deliver not only better HP but better torque as well, and it would still fit easily fit in it's frame, which should be re-engineered in Alloy to bring weight down even further. I have always been disappointed by how badly neutered the V990 turned out to be. I think a lot has been left on the table with this platform, from power to handling.

So for the ST/RT platforms, the Ace engine would be great and probably more appropriate. But for the sport guys, an 1125 and some re-engineering makes more sense.

This has all been discussed before.

The 1125 engine rights belong to Buell (though made by Rotax) and Buell isn't interested in releasing the rights to that engine. That's a dead end.

The 998cc Rotax in the Aprilia does in fact make quite a bit more HP at a very narrow peak. This is in a machine that weighs just over 1/2 of what our Spyder weighs. That engine doesn't have enough torque to get out of its own way on a Spyder. BRP already has to idle this engine up and still many (with standard clutch) have trouble getting started on a hill without killing the engine. In such situations you need liberal throttle and a fair amount of clutch slippage to go forward without stalling the engine.

Even with the modifications to get more, much needed torque out of the 998 you still have a fairly narrow power curve, (though flattened as compared to the Aprilia application).

It would have been MUCH less expensive, time consuming and easier to simply slap the Aprilia engine into the Spyder. Think of all the engineering and R&D required to come up with NEW cams, NEW port timing, injectors, etc. BRP would not have wasted their time if the Aprilia engine were a viable match for the Spyder out of the box.

[DrewNJ]

Actually Ron, the 136hp motor from an early 00's RSV moves the Spyder along VERY well. I know this first hand and am in the beginning process of building my own with some guidance. I've got the doner machine, it's just REALLY hard to find a reasonably priced Spyder.....
Anyone know of one with a blown motor??


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[DrewNJ]

And no, I'm not ripping my 12' apart.....haha


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[Bob Denman]

Why not?
Take out that underpowered, underperforming 990 series engine, and just give the bike a little bit of help from Aprilia.
And while that 990 is on the bench; call Aerocharger...
And Doc... he knows hairdryers!!

[Raptor]

Actually Ron, the 136hp motor from an early 00's RSV moves the Spyder along VERY well. I know this first hand and am in the beginning process of building my own with some guidance. ...

I have to agree with this. What I don't agree with is that what we got in the production machine was BRP's best effort. I think there were multiple things at play in this, the biggest most likely being the legal guys worrying about liability issues and wanting to keep the machine manageable for a majority of riders, and I understand that I suppose. But they went too far, and we got what we got. It's not terrible by any means, but it could be so much more. The younger rider demographic doesn't even look twice at these machines, and this is the reason. Just my opinion here, but this is what I have been told by prospective younger riders.

I remember there was a gentleman on here who found the parts to implement a big-bore kit to the stock engine and got amazing gains out of the thing. The Aerocharger kit is another obvious bolt-on option but I was never convinced that this was the way to go.

[SNOOPY]

And no, I'm not ripping my 12' apart.....haha


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Oh come on!

[DrewNJ]

This is getting way off topic so I'll only just throw out a few details. I'll post a build thread as soon as I have everything I need and get the project underway.

Right now the doner bike is a good friends RSV track bike with the motor putting out over 150hp from what I'm told. It was laid down hard and I have it mostly apart. Mechanicals were still all good and rideable before starting to pull it apart. I had an 08' GS that was reported to have a bad motor that I picked up really cheap. However, it ended up having a locked up starter and was an easy fix. Way to easy that I ended up selling it to a good friend. Good deal all the way around.
What I really need right now is an RS/GS with a blown motor or something of non-running condition that is fairly cheap but frame/cosmetics decent/good. I'm not on any time schedule as this is all a hobby. The eventual plan after the build is to ride it and give my 12' to the wife to ride.
The longer I wait the closer I get to doing this in the mean time: http://www.af1racing.com/store/Scrip...idproduct=4596

Keep in mind that these machines use mainly the Aprilia electronics. No nanny, no traction control, no abs. When I first rode my friends with 136hp I thought it would be nearly unrideable based on what I've read here with no nanny....It's really not and I don't expect another 20+hp to make it that much crazier. Other than abs I'm pretty sure I'm totally going to be happy with it and still much more stable than anything on 2 wheels. Yes, it will wiz the back wheel in multiple gears.....ABS would be nice.

Like I said, when I find a nice machine to put the drivetrain in I'll start a build thread and take plenty of pics. Until then, it's just an unfinished dream....haha. Unless BRP beats me to it and offers something similar OEM....then I'll go that route!

[otter28169]

This has all been discussed before.

The 1125 engine rights belong to Buell (though made by Rotax) and Buell isn't interested in releasing the rights to that engine. That's a dead end.

The 998cc Rotax in the Aprilia does in fact make quite a bit more HP at a very narrow peak. This is in a machine that weighs just over 1/2 of what our Spyder weighs. That engine doesn't have enough torque to get out of its own way on a Spyder. BRP already has to idle this engine up and still many (with standard clutch) have trouble getting started on a hill without killing the engine. In such situations you need liberal throttle and a fair amount of clutch slippage to go forward without stalling the engine.

Even with the modifications to get more, much needed torque out of the 998 you still have a fairly narrow power curve, (though flattened as compared to the Aprilia application).

It would have been MUCH less expensive, time consuming and easier to simply slap the Aprilia engine into the Spyder. Think of all the engineering and R&D required to come up with NEW cams, NEW port timing, injectors, etc. BRP would not have wasted their time if the Aprilia engine were a viable match for the Spyder out of the box.

Then it sounds like the RS Needs to get it's own engine. To with these god-forsaken ACE motors. If BRP really wants to appeal to a younger market, they need something with real power. Right now that is the only part of the market that a competitor would be able to carve a niche out of. The reason they don't "waste their time" trying to improve it is because they can make a lot more money of the RT and ST crowd by overcharging for those machines. It is hard to justify the same profit percentage on a machine that has more HP than it's 2 wheel counterpart, and cannot compete in a drag race.

I would also like to point out that the RS with an SM5 transition is one of the more "robust" models they make. It is also the model they have the most data on. They are probably hesitant to make changes to it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it is the most profitable way to go........and the RS ain't broke.

I bleed yellow, and have had 30 years to watch BRP roll out new models. In my opinion the RT got these new options because of the issues with the 2013 models. They generally will come out with a big new idea, and then wait 3-4 years before they make any major changes. This theory of mine also leads me to believe that we are not in for much of anything over the next few years. Good lord I hope I am wrong.

[BajaRon]

Actually Ron, the 136hp motor from an early 00's RSV moves the Spyder along VERY well. I know this first hand and am in the beginning process of building my own with some guidance. I've got the doner machine, it's just REALLY hard to find a reasonably priced Spyder.....
Anyone know of one with a blown motor??


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So, you have ridden an Aprilia motored Spyder? I would say, once you get it going the Aprilia motor would do fine. It's hard to believe that BRP would go to all the time and expense to make the Spyder a less desirable machine by de-tuning the Aprilia motor.

I hope your project works out well. The big bore kit would certainly help in the torque department. Seems like that kit would work on our Spyder engine, depending on the weight of our pistons.

[DrewNJ]

Thanks Ron, we will see how it all comes together.
From a dead stop launch we are even for about 15-20ft. Then he pulls me pretty hard and is gone leaving a trail of tire smoke...haha
Break the back wheel loose and you can easily wiz the back tire through first and partially second, chirp third. This is with some type of partial slick road race tire??

It would be nice to have the extra power just from an acceleration standpoint.
If I can find a Spyder with a blown motor I will pull everything apart and measure all the internals and see exactly what is different. My guess is the top end and electronics.......I bet the bottoms are the same.
Tranny is obviously different internals but swap.


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[BajaRon]

Thanks Ron, we will see how it all comes together.
From a dead stop launch we are even for about 15-20ft. Then he pulls me pretty hard and is gone leaving a trail of tire smoke...haha
Break the back wheel loose and you can easily wiz the back tire through first and partially second, chirp third. This is with some type of partial slick road race tire??

It would be nice to have the extra power just from an acceleration standpoint.
If I can find a Spyder with a blown motor I will pull everything apart and measure all the internals and see exactly what is different. My guess is the top end and electronics.......I bet the bottoms are the same.
Tranny is obviously different internals but swap.


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What are you going to do for reverse? Bolt the Aprilia top end to the Spyder bottom end?

[SNOOPY]

What are you going to do for reverse? Bolt the Aprilia top end to the Spyder bottom end?

Push?

[DrewNJ]

Its probably going to involve the 5 speed gear set with reverse. The splined output shaft in the aprilia box is to short

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