Mild Steel (1010) uncoated header exposed to continuous 1200º F. in normal air will have a weight loss percentage of roughly 25% with only 10 hours use at this temperature.
Stainless Steel (410) uncoated header will have roughly 8% weight loss in the same 10 hour period.
A coated mild steel header will have NO weight loss at temperatures up to 1200º F. In fact it will actually gain a bit of weight! Between 1300º F and 1600º F the coating will begin to show signs of mud cracking or like the look of lacquer checking. However, limited diffusion takes place between the coating and the substrate, producing a very thin film of iron aluminide, which continues to inhibit oxidation
So there is more benefit to coating SS than running naked
Its beneficial to coat ANY substrate, each for different reasons. Beyond aesthetic concerns, SS benefits significantly from reducing radiated heat from its surface. In really thin SS / TI pipes you benefit from Thermal Control. Mild steel needs corrosion protection and a thermal protection, etc, etc.
As for the data above, I'm not buying it. we certainly see corrosion issues over the years as a result of both thermally induced factors and environmental factors. If these headers were losing 25% of their mass that quickly the headers would literally "float off the engine". By his definition most normally aspirated drag cars and road race cars would be going through "multiple" pairs of headers in a season. I've never heard, nor seen such "accelerated" corrosive conditions in my life. Case in point, look at a class 8 / over the road truck of a few years back with a mild steel exhaust. Under load / boost these trucks run FAR beyond these temps and do it for 100's of thousands of miles and 1000's of hours without replacing exhaust systems........
Going further with the bizarre analysis, he goes on to describe an "over temp / delamination" scenario in which the ceramic coating begins to break down and become sacrificial. He then describes the iron oxide / rust as inhibiting rust???? This makes absolutely no sense. As you can see from a the examples below below, his description is in NO WAY indicative of how ceramic coatings react and or fail...........
"This may not be totally true for a 100hp engine but if NASCAR experts say this I tend to think about it."
NASCAR is an advocate of change to E15 fuel. I guess they are correct it's a great fuel if you tear down and rebuild your engine every 500 miles. For the real world it SUCKS guess they are the same as other "Big" organizations give me the money and I will endorse anything.
J. D.
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Its beneficial to coat ANY substrate, each for different reasons. Beyond aesthetic concerns, SS benefits significantly from reducing radiated heat from its surface. In really thin SS / TI pipes you benefit from Thermal Control. Mild steel needs corrosion protection and a thermal protection, etc, etc.
As for the data above, I'm not buying it. we certainly see corrosion issues over the years as a result of both thermally induced factors and environmental factors. If these headers were losing 25% of their mass that quickly the headers would literally "float off the engine". By his definition most normally aspirated drag cars and road race cars would be going through "multiple" pairs of headers in a season. I've never heard, nor seen such "accelerated" corrosive conditions in my life. Case in point, look at a class 8 / over the road truck of a few years back with a mild steel exhaust. Under load / boost these trucks run FAR beyond these temps and do it for 100's of thousands of miles and 1000's of hours without replacing exhaust systems........
Going further with the bizarre analysis, he goes on to describe an "over temp / delamination" scenario in which the ceramic coating begins to break down and become sacrificial. He then describes the iron oxide / rust as inhibiting rust???? This makes absolutely no sense. As you can see from a the examples below below, his description is in NO WAY indicative of how ceramic coatings react and or fail...........
I'm a little confused at the outcome of this discussion? Are you saying it is beneficial to "ceramic" coat our stock header pipes whether they are SS, or mild steel...or not?
2012 RTS I removed both exh pipe and wrap mine. I did a 1/4 space with 2" wide.
Yes if you cout or wrap it helps big time.
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I'm a little confused at the outcome of this discussion? Are you saying it is beneficial to "ceramic" coat our stock header pipes whether they are SS, or mild steel...or not?
.
Absolutely beneficial to Ceramic Coat your exhaust pipes, wrap them or both, for any substrate, i.e. mild steel or SS.... Though, not ALL ceramics are recommended. Specifically, some exhaust applications are too hot for traditional Bright Ceramic. In those cases High Temp Ceramics are required.
Last edited by CCPcoatings; 10-15-2013 at 02:59 PM.
"This may not be totally true for a 100hp engine but if NASCAR experts say this I tend to think about it."
NASCAR is an advocate of change to E15 fuel. I guess they are correct it's a great fuel if you tear down and rebuild your engine every 500 miles. For the real world it SUCKS guess they are the same as other "Big" organizations give me the money and I will endorse anything.
J. D.
LOL, what "NASCAR experts"?????? The article is written by some un-named person or persons from an unknown supplier, who is referencing 30 year old occurrences, combined with a little fact and a few NASCAR like buzz words to somehow justify modern exhaust issues.
What you're failing to see is this. The trajectory of performance engineering / substrate engineering has historically starts with: NASA, F1, NASCAR, Drag racing and then its disseminated to everyone else. I'm not sure how old you are but I can safely say that no one has wrapped any NASCAR headers in at least 20-30+ years........ Back then a whole lot of parts were falling off race cars. Combine that with the fact that NASCAR headers much like many motorsport exhaust applications are PAPER THIN its no wonder there were part failures. We coated a set of vintage Yates NASCAR headers some years back and and they nearly floated off the table by themselves they were so light. Also, the vintage SCCA car below has a PAPER THIN mild and moly exhaust system on it that was a work of art (super lightweight).
Please NOTE: According to the un-known author, these headers would have lost 25% of their density every 10 hours or so. So by his calculations in that these cars are 25-30 years old and have countless hours on them, the exhaust systems must have lost a 1000%+ of their density. So one would assume that these headers disintegrated into thin air many moons ago. I can assure you this is not the case. Aside from some minimal fuel / exhaust corrosion, and road abrasion the headers were there in their full beautifully welded, fabricated glory..........
Anything and everything will rust over time, even stainless will oxidize over time -it the nature of the beast! with that being said, if you coat and wrap your pipes you must add this to your list of yearly checks and maintance. it will NOT last a lifetime and will be needing recoating or bandage changed at some time. if you do it right and take your time it will last a long time though- and keep your Kool! NO pro here, but I have hands on experience on the subject at hand.
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Ceramic coated my pipes 2 or 3 years ago with little heat reduction. Last year, removed them again and wrapped them in titatiun heat wrap. Much improved heat reduction. BTW, be cautious about wrapping. Can and will cause rusting but as mine were already ceramic coated, this isn't a problem for me. The titatium wrap is far better because it doesn't require the water soaking of the wrap or the application of silicone to the headers. Most high end hot rod/racing shops stock this wrap. It's been 8,000-10,000 miles with the wrap and no problems. Lots of work to remove/reinstall headers. If you've removed your air box and replaced it with an aftermarket air intake, you'll have a much easier time of it. Unfortunatly me me, I hadn't replaced the air box until after I'd done the wrap. Go for it. Cold weather approching fast so lots of time to correct all the mistakes you might make.
Anything and everything will rust over time, even stainless will oxidize over time -it the nature of the beast! with that being said, if you coat and wrap your pipes you must add this to your list of yearly checks and maintance. it will NOT last a lifetime and will be needing recoating or bandage changed at some time. if you do it right and take your time it will last a long time though- and keep your Kool! NO pro here, but I have hands on experience on the subject at hand.
Very well said...... Though the oxidation on most SS is only an eye sore as opposed to being detrimental to the health of mild steel components. We see the same issues on snowmobiles as well. Most all sleds come with metal heat shields lined with a matting material similar to an exhaust wrap. Most people people have no idea until its too late and the pipes are destroyed from rust... Where as the folks that know better take the shields off periodically to clean / coat or oil...
The answer if you own a 2011 RTL, SE-5 is it appears to have had none. But one positive effect. It made the Rt run much quieter. It took the pinging noises generated by the exhaust gases and knocked them down immensely.
Last edited by Bob Ledford; 10-15-2013 at 03:08 PM.
The answer if you own a 2011 RTL, SE-5 is it appears to have had none. But one positive effect. It made the Rt run much quieter. It took the pinging noises generated by the exhaust gases and knocked them down immensely.
Affect and effect are both spelled correctly, they just have slightly different meanings. In his first question I believe he used "affect" properly. Whereas if he said "his performance was effected as a result of the wrapping his pipe".
HelloDave, Thank you for your interest in our Jet Hot High Performance Coatings. The price estimate for your parts to be coated is $250.00 in the extreme 1300 blackplus the cost of shipping/handling to send them back to you. Process time once we receive your parts takes 5 business days for extreme 1300 and extreme 2000 & extreme 2500 takes 7 business days.
If there is any chromeor ceramic coating to remove a $50 strip fee will be applied.
Attached to this email is our warranty. Also included is information with suggestions about how to ship your parts.
If you have any questions or would like to place an order please let me know. I would be happy to assist you.
Thank you,
Dan Groff Inside Sales
JET-HOT’S UNMATCHED WARRANTY
The Jet-Hot exhaust coating warranty is the best in the industry. Lifetime – no questions asked.
If you think your Jet-Hot exhaust coating isn’t living up to its billing, we’ll coat your part again on our dime. If it fails in the first year, we’ll re-coat your part and cover the shipping both ways. If the coating fails after a year, ship us the part and we’ll coat it and ship it back on our dime.
Yep, we stand behind our work.
Commencement of warranty is effective from the shipment date of the original order.
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Jet hot will not coat "used" pipes on the inside, unless I've been told wrong. I have been checking with speed shops to see about getting mine done and they are telling me they will only coat the outside on used pipes. (I have not contacted Jet Hot yet)
I did say inside and out with my request and mentioned 2k miles on them but am not sure might be worth asking them. Even just outside would be a big improvement. I am on the fence
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My head hurts from trying to make sense of all of this information...
It's gonna take some time to soak in!
Thanks for all of the legwork in tracking down the answers!
My experience with Jet Hot is that for new parts they apply a good product that does help prevent corrosion and keep things looking nice. For used parts, the longevity is much reduced and subject to flaking or peeling. Yes they will recoat if you want to do the work to remove and send back....it will chip again. If you are looking for insulation properties to help with cooling the engine bay, keep looking as they provide very minimal reduction in heat transfer or surface temps. The heat wrap does a MUCH better job of heat reduction.
well with all that has been discussed, I do not think, for our little twins, we should coat or tape our stainless exhaust, what we need to do is evacuate the hot air as fast as possible, and insulate the parts that are getting hot from the pipes. I replaced my stock air box with a different filter, what is still in my is the air tube from the front, I think I shall install a high cfm fan on that tube to cause some air flow when I am going slow or stopped. I will let you know how it goes. I have a 2011 RTS, I have removed the bottom panels and have the block off plate, and really appreciate some of the heat in the fall and spring here in Maine. so I will probably wire the fan with a switch or thermostat.
My experience with Jet Hot is that for new parts they apply a good product that does help prevent corrosion and keep things looking nice. For used parts, the longevity is much reduced and subject to flaking or peeling. Yes they will recoat if you want to do the work to remove and send back....it will chip again. If you are looking for insulation properties to help with cooling the engine bay, keep looking as they provide very minimal reduction in heat transfer or surface temps. The heat wrap does a MUCH better job of heat reduction.
If you're past bad experience is with jet-hot and used parts, I would venture to say that had more to do with Jet Hot being bought and sold so much and a lot to do with why jet hot filed for bankruptcy and screwed creditors to the tune of 950 million dollars. They have since been bought out of receivership by a holding company.
Generally speaking, it makes NO DIFFERENCE whether you are ceramic coating a new or used pipe. The only caveat to this is if you are dealing with a SEVERELY rust damaged part, i.e. a very porous part like old cast iron manifolds or old rust damaged / pitted headers. In some of these cases you could potentially see some rust bleed through at some point in the future because it has permeated through the substrate. This is pretty rare though......
well with all that has been discussed, I do not think, for our little twins, we should coat or tape our stainless exhaust, what we need to do is evacuate the hot air as fast as possible, and insulate the parts that are getting hot from the pipes. I replaced my stock air box with a different filter, what is still in my is the air tube from the front, I think I shall install a high cfm fan on that tube to cause some air flow when I am going slow or stopped. I will let you know how it goes. I have a 2011 RTS, I have removed the bottom panels and have the block off plate, and really appreciate some of the heat in the fall and spring here in Maine. so I will probably wire the fan with a switch or thermostat.
So you're primary issues are melted panels? At what points?
If you're past bad experience is with jet-hot and used parts, I would venture to say that had more to do with Jet Hot being bought and sold so much and a lot to do with why jet hot filed for bankruptcy and screwed creditors to the tune of 950 million dollars. They have since been bought out of receivership by a holding company.
Generally speaking, it makes NO DIFFERENCE whether you are ceramic coating a new or used pipe. The only caveat to this is if you are dealing with a SEVERELY rust damaged part, i.e. a very porous part like old cast iron manifolds or old rust damaged / pitted headers. In some of these cases you could potentially see some rust bleed through at some point in the future because it has permeated through the substrate. This is pretty rare though......
My first hand experience was with Jet Hot 2 yrs ago. It was on SS exhaust for my GT. Black ceramic. After 2 tries at recoat I gave up. Sanded the pipes and used VHT high temp black header paint. Has lasted 6 months without chipping so far.
I had previous experience with the bright silver coating on new parts that lasted fine.
My first hand experience was with Jet Hot 2 yrs ago. It was on SS exhaust for my GT. Black ceramic. After 2 tries at recoat I gave up. Sanded the pipes and used VHT high temp black header paint. Has lasted 6 months without chipping so far.
I had previous experience with the bright silver coating on new parts that lasted fine.
What was happening to it that they had to keep re-coating it?
Frankly, I fail to see how a thin coating of anything can help. I would like to see a report by an unbiased source on the relative thermal merits of ceramic coatings vs. wraps.
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Anything and everything will rust over time, even stainless will oxidize over time -it the nature of the beast! with that being said, if you coat and wrap your pipes you must add this to your list of yearly checks and maintance. it will NOT last a lifetime and will be needing recoating or bandage changed at some time. if you do it right and take your time it will last a long time though- and keep your 
Kool! NO pro here, but I have hands on experience on the subject at hand.
