Startron & ethanol fuel

[StriperKing]

I have been using Startron for a long time now. It does everything it sais it does. Several comments in this thread based on a lack on knoledge and just openion. I have read literally dozens on articles on this and similar products, colledge and industrial studies, and so on. This is not just an additive, it is an enzyme treatment. Do you have to use it for your bike to run good, no. Will it fix existing damage, no. Can it prevent future problems, yes. Will it change the molecular structure of the fuel molecules for a better more effective burn, yes. It is not just a fuel stabilizer or cleaner. It changes the fuel itself. In the end everyone needs to do what they feel is best but if you like it, use it. Do some research. Look at the off shore marine industry and see if they use it. They buy it 50-500 gal. at a time. They usually use Soltron but it is the same thing just bottled in Europe. Startron is the US version. I have done this myself based on what the guy who ownes the local bike repair shop told me. I took some old stale 2-cycle fuel that would not fire at all. I added double the recomended amount of Startron to the fuel and sure enough it fired and actually ran fairly well. He takes all the old nasty fuel that comes in the bikes, atvs, etc. that people have had sitting around when people bring them in to get running and adds Startron to it and he runs it in his tractor and it runs great. Try it and if you can not tell a difference then don`t run it. If it does then use it. It is cheap to use. I get it in the marine section of Walmart. The marine stuff is twice as consintrated 128:1 instead of the 64:1. 128:1 is 1 oz. to 16 gal. of fuel.

[Bob Denman]

I only use fuel additives during the time that the bike is laid-up for the winter...
I DO use StarTron as a fuel stabilizer...

[MouthPiece]

Sometime get you a few small vials and place about 4 drops of water in each. Then use the Startron, SeaFoam, Amsoil and any other additive and fill the vial almost to the top. Then in another vial put the 4 drops of water in it and add "Bell Ethanol Defense" just as you did the others. Shake each vial rapidly for about 30 seconds. See what happens in about a minute after you have stopped shaking.

I think you will find that in all the additives, save the Bell Ethanol Defense, that the water will appear in big globuls. That won't be the case with the Bell Ethanol Defense. You will see liddle biddy beads of water. Moral of the story is that the motor will be able to burn off the liddle biddy beads of water, but not the big globuls. No alcohol in the Bells Ethanol Defense like the others.

Chris

[OldCowboy]

All of the so-called "research" I've been able to find on startron, seafoam, etc. is all anecdotal. "Research" like, "I've been using it for 6 months and it hasn't hurt anything." Or "research" like "It makes my xxxxxxx run better."

Sorry, friends, but that's not research. Research is when you take at least 4 identical vehicles, divide them into two groups and run them under exactly the same conditions. One group gets control fuel; say 91 Octane 10% ethanol fuel. The other group gets experimental fuel; say 91 Octane 10% ethanol fuel with one capful of Startron per gallon. The vehicles are run together under a test protocol and various measurements are taken. The results are statistically analyzed to determine if the experimental fuel performs better.

Here's why I think all of this stuff is snake oil. Southwest Research Institute (SwRI) in San Antonio, Texas is a recognized, well respected independent research institute. They are the "Consumer Reports" of independent research. They refuse to conduct research with built in bias. If an additive was truly all that the manufacturer claimed, they would have it tested by SwRI and use the results in their advertising. Since none has done so, I have to believe the snake oil salesmen cannot afford to have their products examined under the rigor of a well conducted scientific research project.

Until someone can provide a reference from either SwRI or a refereed journal like an SAE or similar journal, whatever is said about these products is unproven marketing fluff.

Look at it this way. Vehicle manufacturers have no allegiance to gasoline refiners or distributors. If Startron or Seafoam or whatever snake oil you prefer had been scientifically shown to improve gasoline, you can bet the vehicle manufacturers would be recommending its use. After all, if an additive protects their vehicles from damage it is in their interest to promote its use.

[sledmaster]

Do none of you understand what sulfate salts do to the metals in a fuel system? When ethanol is added to fuel, there are sulfate salts in there as a residual, or contaminant, from the manufacturing of ethanol. You know, sulfuric acid? This stuff is VERY corrosive to metals like aluminum, steel, copper, yellow metals and silver solder. If you leave ethanol fuel in your tank all of the metal parts in the fuel system will CORRODE.
scan0018.jpg
Here is a photo showing you what happens when you leave fuel in your machine that has been treated with three different types of stabilizer – alcohol based, enzyme based, and the new one I was telling you about from Yamaha. Actual test data, not some hyperbole or theory. Believe what you want, but you do not want to take your fuel system apart some day and find this in there. Ethanol fuels with this contaminant eat the guts out of your fuel system.

[Bob Denman]

You DO realize that you're screaming "FIRE!!!" in a darkened theater...
There are many States where you either buy ethanol, or you walk...
You have NO choice at all in the matter...
So why worry about it??
Do you remember the famous quote that got Tex Antoine kicked off the airwaves??

[wyliec]

scan0018.jpg
Actual test data, not some hyperbole or theory. Believe what you want, but you do not want to take your fuel system apart some day and find this in there. Ethanol fuels with this contaminant eat the guts out of your fuel system.

Actual test data by whom?

[wyliec]

You DO realize that you're screaming "FIRE!!!" in a darkened theater...
There are many States where you either buy ethanol, or you walk...
You have NO choice at all in the matter...
So why worry about it??
Do you remember the famous quote that got Tex Antoine kicked off the airwaves??

Hey Bob D.,

If Austin Dillon, a NASACAR driver, swears by ethanol it must be good. After all, I found that info on the internet; so, it must be true.

[sledmaster]

I believe in providing accurate information so people can better make informed decisions. They can and will believe what they want to. Sulfate salts are a residual from the manufacturing of ethanol. It corrodes the metals in your fuel system. This, and the acetobacter bacteria that grows in the water/gas/ethanol mix excretes yet another acid (acetic acid), also very corrosive. Bad stuff.

You can choose to ignore it or choose to combat it. Pretty simple. If you don’t believe me, then don’t worry about it. Wait until the thing doesn’t run right and take it in for service, they are the guys that deal with this crap on a daily basis. Fuel injected systems with the fuel pump down in the gas tank, they have to fight this all day long. I’m sure you can find many photos of this kind of damage. The pumps down in the underground fuel storage tanks are really having issues with this as well. If you crack open your fuel cap after storage and it smells like vinegar, well, you have a problem. Ignore it, or fight it. Your choice.

For those seeking scientific study of such matters, check out https://www.neiwpcc.org/tanksconfere...13_Tuesday.pdf

[OldCowboy]

Do none of you understand what sulfate salts do to the metals in a fuel system? When ethanol is added to fuel, there are sulfate salts in there as a residual, or contaminant, from the manufacturing of ethanol. You know, sulfuric acid? This stuff is VERY corrosive to metals like aluminum, steel, copper, yellow metals and silver solder. If you leave ethanol fuel in your tank all of the metal parts in the fuel system will CORRODE.
scan0018.jpg
Here is a photo showing you what happens when you leave fuel in your machine that has been treated with three different types of stabilizer – alcohol based, enzyme based, and the new one I was telling you about from Yamaha. Actual test data, not some hyperbole or theory. Believe what you want, but you do not want to take your fuel system apart some day and find this in there. Ethanol fuels with this contaminant eat the guts out of your fuel system.

First, it's not research unless the report was published in a refereed journal. Please provide a URL to the "research" that was done. Unless you know what the metal alloy was, what solution the alloy was immersed in, for how long and at what temp, and what the concentration of H2SO4 or other corrosive was, that picture is meaningless. I must say, I'm quite leery of Yamaha Fuel Stabilizer and Conditioner Plus for two reasons: 1) I am unable to find an MSDS for it from either Yamaha's site or through a Google search. 2) Unlike Star Tron, Seafoam, Starbrite, Stabil, etc., Yamaha Fuel Stabilizer and Conditioner Plus is not registered with the EPA as a gasoline additive despite being required by Federal law to do so. (http://www.epa.gov/otaq/fuels/regist...b-addt.htm#TOP) Since Yamaha is unwilling to provide an MSDS or to register their product with the EPA, I consider it to be even more snake oil than several other additives.

Second, how do sulfate salts get into the ethanol? How do yeast and a pure sugar + water substrate create sulfate salts that carry over into fractionally distilled EtOH? The two most common industrial techniques used to turn 190 proof ethanol into 200 proof dry ethanol use benzene or trichlorethylene to dry the ethanol. Neither of these compounds contain sulfur. (http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_.../manual12.html)

All gasoline contains sulfur. "Sulfur is a natural component in crude oil that ends up in gasoline and diesel unless removed." (http://www.epa.gov/otaq/fuels/gasoli...lfur/index.htm) Since 2006, gasoline has had an 80 ppm limit for sulfur. (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2000.../pdf/00-19.pdf). That means every gallon of gasoline can contain up to .2 mg of sulfur, which can turn into sulfuric acid. While pure gas can absorb minute amounts of water, E10 gasoline can absorb greater amounts. This can be accentuated by using gasoline additives which contain alcohol or other water absorbing compounds. (http://www.fuel-testers.com/is_gas_a..._e10_list.html) So, for instance, Seafoam and Starbrite both contain alcohol and will only make the problem of sulfuric acid worse as will several marine fuel conditioners which also contain alcohol.

If you buy fresh E-10 gas and use it in a reasonable time period (3-4 weeks), there is no need for any additive. If you're going to store it for a longer period, use an additive which is known to be alcohol free, such as Stabil or Amsoil Gasoline Stabilizer. Because the Star*Tron MSDS does not fully account for all the compounds contained within it, there is always the possibility that up to 4.5% is alcohol. (http://mystarbrite.com/startron/imag..._Gas_930XX.pdf)

[Bob Denman]

If Austin Dillon, a NASACAR driver, swears by ethanol it must be good. After all, I found that info on the internet; so, it must be true.

[sledmaster]

I am unable to find an MSDS for it from either Yamaha's site or through a Google search.

I don't think you looked very hard, but whatever. Here it is, easy to find and readily available. http://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/do...20Med%20RX.pdf

[aka1004]

I loved California but I just couldn't take the invasion anymore. I moved and I'm glad I did. Sadly, it will eventually reach us here as well. But I bought some time at least.

yes, we are coming... to your neighborhood... soon.


oh yea, i do use startron. makes me feel better.

[CurtG]

Started out using Stabil on recommendation of the service manager at the dealership where I bought the Bug. Ran out of Stabil and could only find a bottle of Startron but haven't used much of it since gas hasn't been staying in the tank long enough for it to make a difference. With winter approaching and riding days getting further apart I'll probably keep it in the tank. Winters here tend to be damp and Bug is in an unheated garage. The Ural gets an ounce of Marvel Mystery Oil per gallon at each fill up, after Linda's accident the left head had to be replaced and the tech asked if we were doing anything to keep the engine so clean. I figure it's mostly the low or no ethanol high test we run in it, but figure the MMO isn't hurting either.

Off course clean living and only gassing up during a full moon might be helping also .

Burn what gets you from point a to point b and enjoy the miles .

Ride and ride safe,