Vehicle Stability System - Any Way to Make it Less Sensitive?

[GeoffCee]

I don't remember where I read it but the story goes that Bosch were brought to develop the Nanny because BRP discovered that their Spyder prototype could not be ridden safely in its raw state. It badly needed the VSS to make it a safe, viable proposition.

Of course, there will be those who's sense of adventure and daring is such that the very thought of a Nanny interfering with their fun is a pita. I feel sympathy for this point of view, I love speed but I hate to feel unsafe. It is possible to have safe speed and IMO there is no thrill quite like it.

To reduce the effectiveness of the Spyder's Nanny, if that were made possible, might open a can of worms. How much to reduce it before the ride becomes hazardous? I can see why a car's adjustable suspension is pointed out in this regard but a car, having a wheel at each corner, is inherently firmly planted and stable whereas it appears that the Spyder negotiating a bend is less predictable. Instability increases with cornering speed. At speed a car will break away and slide but the Spyder will lift a wheel and fall over. Not a situation I would like to find myself in.

[stewartj239]

Thanks for the great insight and feedback. I am learning a lot. Like I said, I do NOT want to eliminate the VSS as I know it can be a life saver, but the reality is that it kicks in WAY too early.

I took a look at the Elka shocks. I see that there is a big price range between the Stage 1 and Stage 5 offerings. Can anyone talk about what the differences are? I understand that the higher priced shocks allow for greater adjustability, but do they do a better job of "fooling" the nanny than the lower priced shocks? Personally, I think the Stage 1+R is all I would need, but I'd be willing to spend more to quiet down the nanny if necessary.

[asp125]

If you're cornering smoothly, you can ride pretty fast and hard without Nanny. If you are abrupt and rough, you can get Nanny to slap you just turning from a stop sign.

[BajaRon]

Thanks for the great insight and feedback. I am learning a lot. Like I said, I do NOT want to eliminate the VSS as I know it can be a life saver, but the reality is that it kicks in WAY too early.

I took a look at the Elka shocks. I see that there is a big price range between the Stage 1 and Stage 5 offerings. Can anyone talk about what the differences are? I understand that the higher priced shocks allow for greater adjustability, but do they do a better job of "fooling" the nanny than the lower priced shocks? Personally, I think the Stage 1+R is all I would need, but I'd be willing to spend more to quiet down the nanny if necessary.

I don't have Elka's so take it for what it's worth. I have researched them (which really isn't the same thing as riding them. But then again, I don't know many who have ridden them all on the same machine either).

That being the case it is my feeling that (and I agree with you) the 1+R will give you nearly all the bang for the buck that you're going to get and it will save you some coin over the top of the line. That is the one that I settled on for myself. I just never pulled the trigger.

[spyderyderjim]

Thanks for the great insight and feedback. I am learning a lot. Like I said, I do NOT want to eliminate the VSS as I know it can be a life saver, but the reality is that it kicks in WAY too early.

I took a look at the Elka shocks. I see that there is a big price range between the Stage 1 and Stage 5 offerings. Can anyone talk about what the differences are? I understand that the higher priced shocks allow for greater adjustability, but do they do a better job of "fooling" the nanny than the lower priced shocks? Personally, I think the Stage 1+R is all I would need, but I'd be willing to spend more to quiet down the nanny if necessary.

Len at PitBull Powersports adjusted my 2011 Spyder RT stage 5 shocks, installed them on my 2013 Spyder RT-S, it is like on rails in corners, nanny does not kick in.
The stage 5 Elka front shocks are worth the extra money for ease of having adjustment for High & Low speed compression dampening, rear stage 1+, setting up 2013 Spyder RT to your riding. If you order Elka Stage 5 RT front shocks & rear 1+, from Len he will set them up spot on!! The 2013 RT shocks are 19" eye to eye (1" longer than 2011 shocks).
Jim

[Spacetrucker]

Mine are 19" top to bottom or hole thu hole. On the new 13 teens.

[stewartj239]

If you are abrupt and rough, you can get Nanny to slap you just turning from a stop sign.

I did experience this when we first got it in July. I am coming off a motorcycle and have 25 years of street experience. I quickly learned that you can't make sharp cuts or transitions with the Spyder or this will happen.

If you're cornering smoothly, you can ride pretty fast and hard without Nanny.

I consider this Stage 2. I worked my way up to exactly what you're describing. I set up my turns and take the widest arch I can with no sudden steering changes. Things were great for a few weeks until my cornering speed increased and the nanny is now reminding me that she is still there

[stewartj239]

Len at PitBull Powersports adjusted my 2011 Spyder RT stage 5 shocks, installed them on my 2013 Spyder RT-S, it is like on rails in corners, nanny does not kick in.
The stage 5 Elka front shocks are worth the extra money for ease of having adjustment for High & Low speed compression dampening, rear stage 1+, setting up 2013 Spyder RT to your riding. If you order Elka Stage 5 RT front shocks & rear 1+, from Len he will set them up spot on!! The 2013 RT shocks are 13" eye to eye (1" longer than 2011 shocks).
Jim

Here is a quote from the Elka fact sheet that I downloaded: "REDUCED BODY ROLL AND FRONT-END WANDERING". The wandering is also what caught my eye. On my daily commute I have this one back road which is a tarred and stoned road. It is uneven and the Spyder will wallow and wander all the way down it. You can't keep it straight even at 50 MPH. Have you experienced with your new shocks whether this type of road condition is improved or even eliminated?

[NancysToy]

Your best bang for the buck, and the most effective way to reduce excessive body roll is to replace your OEM swaybar with a BajaRon bar. Evaluate that, then decide on the Elkas and/or Pitbull shock relocators. It does sound like you may still have some things that can be done in the way of technique, like weight shifting and leaning the upper body into the corner, but some suspension changes will make these things less necessary and precise technique less critical. Buy a BajaRon swaybar...you won't be sorry!

[stewartj239]

Your best bang for the buck, and the most effective way to reduce excessive body roll is to replace your OEM swaybar with a BajaRon bar. Evaluate that, then decide on the Elkas and/or Pitbull shock relocators. It does sound like you may still have some things that can be done in the way of technique, like weight shifting and leaning the upper body into the corner, but some suspension changes will make these things less necessary and precise technique less critical. Buy a BajaRon swaybar...you won't be sorry!

Already done. I even added the chromoly heim joints and it definitely made a big improvement. I also believe that I've exhausted the options for body positioning. That is why I'm looking for what I can do next. It sounds like the suspension upgrade might be the next logical step.

[spyderyderjim]

Here is a quote from the Elka fact sheet that I downloaded: "REDUCED BODY ROLL AND FRONT-END WANDERING". The wandering is also what caught my eye. On my daily commute I have this one back road which is a tarred and stoned road. It is uneven and the Spyder will wallow and wander all the way down it. You can't keep it straight even at 50 MPH. Have you experienced with your new shocks whether this type of road condition is improved or even eliminated?

My 2013 Spyder RT-S SE5 does not wander with my 2011 Elka stage 5 front shocks, stage 1+ rear shock. (rear tire pressure 28#, front 17#).
I suggest you give Len a call at PitBull powersports Springfield, Mo 417-863-1418 about Elka shocks for your 2013 Spyder RT. (I am not sure if Elka makes stage 5 front shocks for 2013 Spyder RT; but they are worth extra $$ in my opinion).
Was your 2013 Spyder RT built after March 2013? If built before that you may need front ball joints replaced under BRP recall.
(I noticed you enjoy supercross/motorcross. I raced/rode dirt bikes for 31 years in California Mojave desert; (B to V race was awesome).
(Maybe you can add info to your profile of what year Spyder RT, when you bought it, SE5, mods, your 1st name, etc).
(Did you put a reflective insulated heat barrier in front of master brake cylinder on right side of 2013 Spyder RT yet)?
Enjoy your RT riding!! Jim

[stewartj239]

My 2013 Spyder RT-S SE5 does not wander with my 2011 Elka stage 5 front shocks, stage 1+ rear shock. (rear tire pressure 28#, front 17#).
I suggest you give Len a call at PitBull powersports Springfield, Mo 417-863-1418 about Elka shocks for your 2013 Spyder RT. (I am not sure if Elka makes stage 5 front shocks for 2013 Spyder RT; but they are worth extra $$ in my opinion).
Was your 2013 Spyder RT built after March 2013? If built before that you may need front ball joints replaced under BRP recall.
(I noticed you enjoy supercross/motorcross. I raced/rode dirt bikes for 31 years in California Mojave desert; (B to V race was awesome).
(Maybe you can add info to your profile of what year Spyder RT, when you bought it, SE5, mods, your 1st name, etc).
(Did you put a reflective insulated heat barrier in front of master brake cylinder on right side of 2013 Spyder RT yet)?
Enjoy your RT riding!! Jim

I just checked the tag and it was built in April 2013, so hopefully I am good with the ball joints. I have not added any heat barrier to the master cylinder as I was not aware of this issue until I saw the thread about the recall in Canada.

It is always good to meet another dirt bike enthusiast. Like you, I've ridden most of my life as I started when I was 10. I raced District 3 MX for many years in the 125 / 250 Amateur class. I currently belong to a local MX club and my current ride is a 2012 Honda CRF250R. I have 3 sons and we all ride every weekend. We attended the Unadilla MX National a few weeks ago and the club I belong to flags that event. It is an incredible feeling being on the track with the Pros. It makes me realize that I am not as good of a rider as I think I am

[Flanker]

I was hoping that a way to "adjust" Nanny's attitude toward too much fun would be easy-peasy...

32 ounce ball peen hammer. Subtlety counts.

[Dan_Ashley]

I don't remember where I read it but the story goes that Bosch were brought to develop the Nanny because BRP discovered that their Spyder prototype could not be ridden safely in its raw state. It badly needed the VSS to make it a safe, viable proposition.

I would sure like to find the source of this rumor. I really want to check its accuracy. It just doesn't make sense. If the Spyder were that unsafe, then any vehicle manufacturer relying on a single computer to fix the problems would be crazy. Computers fail...we all know that. Sometimes they fail at bad times. You gotta be able to handle your machine, whether it is a trike, a bike, or a car with or without the computer. BRP knows that. For them to rely on a single computer to make something safe when its design is too unsafe to sell, is...well, asking to lose a very big product liability lawsuit.

i have no real knowledge of this, but I am guessing that BRP installed the nanny for two reasons: 1) to attract riders with no motorcycle experience, and 2) to keep those with motorcycle experience, and who do not respect that a spyder has much different road-geometry than a two wheeler, from getting in wrecks. Both of these reasons are really marketing driven.

I donno tho. I wish there were more verifiable facts available.

[NancysToy]

Experienced test riders of the early prototype Spyders likened riding it without the VSS to "riding a lawn dart". Like large SUV's (think Ford Explorer), Spyders have some inherent stabilty problems under extreme conditions. Physics always wins in the end. Like large, modern SUV's, BRP elected to resolve these possible problems with a Vehicle Stability System. I have no doubt that their target demographic entered into the settings and features they selected, but they did feel the system was necessary for all riders, and enlisted Bosch to help develop it. The first system was a modified 4-whell vehicle system, and the early Spyders, like Nancy's 2008, actually had four ABS sensors as a result.

[mike3069]

When touring together, it is not an issue as it never kicks in.

This comment is on the mark. I had the same experience with my '08 GS. After a lot of thought I concluded that the computer was making adjustments to the sensitivity to the yaw/body roll sensor when there is a passenger aboard. I mentioned this at the 1st event in Gatlingburg to some other Spyderlovers and one of them decided to do something to test it. He managed to rig the seat sensor switch to think that a passenger on board all the time and verified that, indeed, the nanny did back off on how quickly it engaged. That said, anything that you can do to limit the amount of body roll will postpone the nanny from kicking in. This would include sway bars, shocks/springs, tires etc. Any or all of these can be used to accomplish what you are looking for!

[Bob Denman]

I talked with one of the fellows who was a subcontractor that worked on the front suspension developement... He personally told it to me, and I believe him!
They were having a lot of trouble getting the bike to handle consistently; any cargo stored up in the front was making for some really wonky changes in how the bike felt... Cubic dollars were being spent on getting it to work; it took Bosch, to make it a real possibility!

[daltmeyer]

Must ride harder! My nanny has been asleep at the wheel! I mean handlebars. I kindve like it that way but I think she may wake up after Im already in a ditch.

[Bob Denman]

If you cross the line; she'll let you know about it...

[HuckFin]

Must ride harder! My nanny has been asleep at the wheel! I mean handlebars. I kindve like it that way but I think she may wake up after Im already in a ditch.

That's been my concern too... While taking my trike ryding test I misunderstood what speed I was supposed to take a hard right turn at. Anyway I tried to hold 20 mph around the turn and the front wheels broke loose a little and went over the white line, then at the end of the test while making a hard stop from around 15 mph, I managed to break loose a wheel or two, no big deal though, passed anyway. About 2 weeks or so ago I took a left hand 30 mph turn at 60 mph (It's a decreasing radius kind of corner and kind of tricky) Anyway the rear tire broke loose for a split second, went into slight oversteer, caught and came back but I never felt the nanny kick in, nor have I ever felt it. But then again, maybe it's been keeping stupid me out of the ditch all along and I didn't know it.

[Bob Denman]

Yup!

[ARtraveler]

My take on the whole thing is recommending not messing with the vehicle control systems. As technical as the is, there is a lot that can go wrong if something is not adjusted right. I would also think that messing with the system could cause warranty issues in the event of a catastrophic failure of any kind.

[stewartj239]

He managed to rig the seat sensor switch to think that a passenger on board all the time and verified that, indeed, the nanny did back off on how quickly it engaged.

Do you know where this switch is located and how to rig it? Is it a matter of unplugging it or closing the circuit on it? I would certainly be willing to give it a try to see if it does what I'm looking for.

[daltmeyer]

But then again, maybe it's been keeping stupid me out of the ditch all along and I didn't know it.

I highly doubt it. How could you not know its applying the brakes or limiting your rpms? At the very least the icons on the dash should light up if this was happening to clue us in. Ive heard many say on here that its unmistakable when she takes over and kindve jarring if youve never experienced it.

[daltmeyer]

Do you know where this switch is located and how to rig it? Is it a matter of unplugging it or closing the circuit on it? I would certainly be willing to give it a try to see if it does what I'm looking for.

Its the round cap with a couple screws and wire under the seat on an RS. The switch is round and gets pushed in when someone sits down to close the circuit.