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  1. #1
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    Default Significant progress on talking to CAN Bus on Spyder

    So I managed to sweet talk a former employer into borrowing a $700 CAN bus adapter that lets my laptop see the CAN bus traffic over USB. Last night I finally sat down and played with the system to see what I could learn. This is going to be a somewhat long and technical post so bear with me, I'm basically going to type up my notes so I can get feedback and ideas from the technical folks.

    I have a 2008 SM5 GS, so what I see on the CAN bus is less than what you would see on a SE5 because I don't have that shifting subsystem. Also I believe the RT has a few more sensors as well.

    The basics:
    The system talks at 500Kbits per second and uses the basic "11 bit mode" for addressing (not the extended 29 bit mode)
    With the key in the on position and engine off, I get 13 unique CAN message identifiers that update at a rate of either 10 or 20 milliseconds. Most of the data is unchanging (because the bike is just sitting there) but a few of the data bytes are bouncing around. One appears to be a timer / sequence number counting up but I can't make heads or tails of most of the "changing data while sitting still" so far.

    Here's what I have learned / tried so far. I'm using the software nerd convention of zero based numbering for the data bytes. Each CAN message has up to 8 bytes of data containing in a message, numbered D0 through D7. Some bytes are combined into a 2 byte integer. If you have no idea what I am talking about, don't worry about it. Read on, you can still help and I value your opinions. Numbers given are all in decimal, not hex.

    So here is what I learned / partially decoded

    Message ID 786 has 8 bytes. The last two bytes are throttle position. They are combined to make a 16 bit unsigned short. Throttle closed is 0, throttle WFO is 116 and 250 for the last 2 bytes. Appears to be linear over the range. Don't know what the other 6 bytes are yet.

    Message ID 512 is also 8 bytes Byte D4 might be a current sensor value, it seemed to go up as I turned things on. Byte D5 is the gear sensor but it is numbered oddly. 1st gear=17, 2nd gear = 18, all the way through 5th. Neutral is 23. But strangely enough, No change when I put it in reverse. I could not see any data change when I dropped it in reverse.

    Message ID 560 is also 8 bytes. D0 through D3 are the 4 wheel speed sensors. D0 is left front wheel speed in "sensor pickup ticks per second". D1 is right front. D2 and D3 are rear. The computer gets really mad at you when the wheels are turning in opposite directions with the engine off. Had to turn it off and back on to get out of an error state.

    Message ID 195 is only 5 bytes. First two bytes are steering angle sensor data.

    The rest of the message ID's are unknown at this time. I get lots of rapidly changing data when I start the engine and I think I know what coolant temp is. But I ran out of time for this particular session.

    Some things I tried I really expected to see in the data stream but did not (or at least I missed it):
    No change in the data I saw when I changed the kill switch, high beam switch, parking brake, or had my boy sit on the passenger seat switch.

    Ok, time for a break and breakfast. This is all the raw data from last night... back in a few minutes with the rest of the story.

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    WOW!!
    I have absolutely no idea what you just said (THAT happens all the time! ); but I have no doubt that it's going to find a useful home in here somewhere!
    2010 RT A&C, RT-L, RT-L , Orbital Blue, Cognac, Jet Black

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    Very Active Member finless's Avatar
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    That's great progress!

    It would be so cool if one day we could have our own BUDs on the cheap. Maybe not ability to flash software but to clear codes for things like changing your own break fluid, etc.

    Keep up the good work man!

    Bob
    2011 RT-S SM5 - Black
    Bought June 2013 with 450 miles. 27K on 8-1-2017.
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    Default Part Two, now what?

    So while fun and entertaining, I don't think the current method is likely to get me / us to where we want. I want to know the data protocol well enough to have a basic "BUDS for the shade tree mechanic". I don't want to reprogram keys or change engine timing or override the nanny. I just want to have access to the basic diagnostics.

    I have to give back the nice CAN to USB adapter on Monday to my former employer. And even if I had unlimited access to it, it is very time consuming process. I enjoy messing with it but I have to split my time between hobbies and customers who pay for my time and you can guess how that goes.

    So I see a few options I wanted to throw out (short of giving up) and see what the board thinks.

    Option A: Ask Bombardier nicely for the unrestricted portions of the protocol. Explain why we want it, why they should not hold owners hostage to $125/hr technicians for basic work, why it would increase the desirability of their brand among tech-heads, etc. I seriously doubt that will succeed but it is easy enough that I will probably try for the heck of it. Anybody here have an ear of someone inside BRP that they could put me in touch with? Otherwise I was just going to try their PR department.

    Option B: I think there are certain states that require manufacturers to provide the public with access to the same proprietary diagnostic data that they provide to their dealers. I can't find the law right now but I think it was Massachusetts. So if someone is a lawyer or legally inclined to pursue that, we could possibly get the information to decode the protocol.

    Option C: If you google the right key words, there are copies of the BUDS installer on the web. I have a copy of BUDS. The installer did not require me to agree to any license restrictions to install it. All of the information we want is encoded in those files. It might be possible to decompile those binaries and extract the information I want. I don't know the legality of what I propose, I certainly do not want to get myself into hot water. I am not a lawyer and am hesitant to do this.

    Option D: If there were enough like minded and technically inclined people, I could probably build / find a fairly inexpensive microcontroller system to let others see the same raw data I am seeing. If those folks were willing to help with the cost of hardware development and contribute to software as well, maybe a lot of us working together could figure it out much faster than this lone geek. Plus it would allow RT, ST, and SE5 owners to play along.

    I'm leaning toward trying A first and seeing where it leads. Any ideas? Any other input on the tasks?

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    Quote Originally Posted by finless View Post
    That's great progress!

    It would be so cool if one day we could have our own BUDs on the cheap. Maybe not ability to flash software but to clear codes for things like changing your own break fluid, etc.

    Keep up the good work man!

    Bob
    That's my goal. Frankly, it pisses me off to be held hostage to a $125 an hour tech when I know I am better trained and educated to troubleshoot complex electromechanical systems. No offense to all the hard working and competent techs but I should not be required to pay those outrageous rates just because BUDS is proprietary.

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    Active Member wd5gnr's Avatar
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    Nice work. Where are you tapping the bus? If you go with option D I might be able to help there as I have a fair amount of experience in that area.

    What I would like is enough info to put my gauges out on WiFi, velcro an old Android phone to my dash and let it mirror image the data to reflect in the windshield as a HUD ;-)

    Or something like that.
    2013 RT , Red

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    Very Active Member mrfats's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Denman View Post
    WOW!!
    I have absolutely no idea what you just said (THAT happens all the time! ); but I have no doubt that it's going to find a useful home in here somewhere!
    Waaaay over my head too!

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    Very Active Member finless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spyder Monkey View Post

    Option B: I think there are certain states that require manufacturers to provide the public with access to the same proprietary diagnostic data that they provide to their dealers. I can't find the law right now but I think it was Massachusetts. So if someone is a lawyer or legally inclined to pursue that, we could possibly get the information to decode the protocol.
    This is correct and I believe it is all states!! I work for a major corporation and we HAVE to make available our diagnostics to allow 3rd party service and fair competition. BRP has to by law sell BUDs to someone if asked. Now what they charge for it can be the issue. Parts of that law requires they sell any proprietary diagnostics tools at a "fair" price but this is open ended and thus if they charge you say $10,000 only thing you can do then is take them to court usually via a class action unfair competition suit. I have been down this road in the late 80's when our company was doing these practices so trust me I know.

    Updated: FYI they do not have to tell you the protocol as part of that law. They only have to make available the tools needed to do service on a product e.g. allow a 3rd party company to provide service as part of fair competition.

    Bob
    Last edited by finless; 08-11-2013 at 09:58 AM.
    2011 RT-S SM5 - Black
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    So now we just need them to 'fess up and tell us what's floating around in those numbers...
    2010 RT A&C, RT-L, RT-L , Orbital Blue, Cognac, Jet Black

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Denman View Post
    So now we just need them to 'fess up and tell us what's floating around in those numbers...
    Yep, that sums it up pretty well. With time, smarts, analysis, etc, I might be able to figure out most of the protocol but I sure would like to know it all.

    Gotta go mow the lawn before the thunderstorms hit this afternoon. Check back in later with some more ideas.

    David

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    Very Active Member KX5062's Avatar
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    Very cool stuff SM. Now if we could parlay that into a homebrewed diagnositic/code reader/clearer.........
    (Like Tune ECU, Yosh box, etc)

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    Quote Originally Posted by finless View Post
    This is correct and I believe it is all states!! I work for a major corporation and we HAVE to make available our diagnostics to allow 3rd party service and fair competition. BRP has to by law sell BUDs to someone if asked. Now what they charge for it can be the issue. Parts of that law requires they sell any proprietary diagnostics tools at a "fair" price but this is open ended and thus if they charge you say $10,000 only thing you can do then is take them to court usually via a class action unfair competition suit. I have been down this road in the late 80's when our company was doing these practices so trust me I know.

    Updated: FYI they do not have to tell you the protocol as part of that law. They only have to make available the tools needed to do service on a product e.g. allow a 3rd party company to provide service as part of fair competition.

    Bob
    Don't count on it. This applies to vehicles (automobiles) that are required to be OBD-II compliant, but the Spyder is not one of them and I do not believe it applies to BUDS and BRP's proprietary diagnostics system, or BMW motorcycle's' proprietary diagnostics, etc..
    -Scotty
    2011 Spyder RTS-SM5 (mine)
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    Very Active Member ARCTIC's Avatar
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    What if you were able to get a hold of a buds tool? Would you be able to crack the code?
    2017 Chevrolet Camaro SS convertible. 2017 GMC Sierra cc diesel. 2017 Arctic cat RR 137 ES

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    Default Reducing the "fog" index in the BUDS discussion

    Couple of comments on terms used in the "BUDS" discussions (Tapping into the computer in your Spyder):
    • Your Spyder "on-board" computer captures data many times a second in some cases. i.e. data concerning engine status, ABS status, cruise control status & much-much more
    • Spyder data is just like what's stored in a black box of an airplane. i.e. What was "on", what was "off", temperature, etc.
    • Typically, this data is captured via numerous sensors in your engine & components
      • Above sensors have wires that are connected to a common cable called BUS
      • Being able to physically tap into this BUS is just the start
      • Knowing what the data means (traveling through the BUS) is the "unknown" here
      • Data:
        • Is stored in binary (0's & 1's)
        • A fixed number of 0's & 1's equals a byte
        • The contents of a given byte is a mystery unless you know the protocol
        • Protocol is basically how the data is arranged for a given situation
        • Protocol's can be very simple in some case
        • Or, protocols can be complex depending how a system (software) was designed and what they're reporting


    • Keep in mind that as the writer(s) stated, protocols are sacred to the folks (companies) that developed them. They typically have spend tons of money designing & debugging these systems & giving out ALL of the internal workings/nomenclature is like loaning money in a poker game. i.e. You're betting against yourself.


    UncleDave

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    I think your confusing the BUDs proprietary (code and protocol) with fair competition laws. If you sell a product to the public that requires service to maintain, then you have to sell all specialty tools that are required to properly service the product or you are maintaining a monopoly.

    I work for Xerox corp. For years we had proprietary software and tools used to diagnose copiers and printers that was protected from access except to Xerox people. We spent huge amounts of dollars developing it. Protocols were also involved. We got sued by 3rd party service companies in a Anti-Trust class action that we were unfairly monopolizing the service revenue for Xerox machines. We lost (or settled) and had to then offer for sale when asked these tools and software!
    This did not mean we had to give up the protocol or "how the code works" as that is a trade secret, patents, etc... So again BRP does not have to tell you anything about the protocol or software. They simply HAVE to sell you the device if it is required to properly service the product.

    It's called the Sherman Act.

    http://www.justice.gov/atr/public/di...l/chapter2.pdf

    For your reading enjoyment about Xerox:

    http://www.law.gmu.edu/assets/files/...pers/01-02.pdf


    Now the problem is if BRP holds out, you would probably have to take them to court to get them to stop.

    Bob
    2011 RT-S SM5 - Black
    Bought June 2013 with 450 miles. 27K on 8-1-2017.
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    Quote Originally Posted by finless View Post
    I think your confusing the BUDs proprietary (code and protocol) with fair competition laws. If you sell a product to the public that requires service to maintain, then you have to sell all specialty tools that are required to properly service the product or you are maintaining a monopoly.

    I work for Xerox corp. For years we had proprietary software and tools used to diagnose copiers and printers that was protected from access except to Xerox people. We spent huge amounts of dollars developing it. Protocols were also involved. We got sued by 3rd party service companies in a Anti-Trust class action that we were unfairly monopolizing the service revenue for Xerox machines. We lost (or settled) and had to then offer for sale when asked these tools and software!
    This did not mean we had to give up the protocol or "how the code works" as that is a trade secret, patents, etc... So again BRP does not have to tell you anything about the protocol or software. They simply HAVE to sell you the device if it is required to properly service the product.

    It's called the Sherman Act.

    http://www.justice.gov/atr/public/di...l/chapter2.pdf

    For your reading enjoyment about Xerox:

    http://www.law.gmu.edu/assets/files/...pers/01-02.pdf


    Now the problem is if BRP holds out, you would probably have to take them to court to get them to stop.

    Bob
    The only special tool is the cable, which can be purchased from BRP. BUDS is the software, which is protected as I understand it.
    -Scotty
    2011 Spyder RTS-SM5 (mine)
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    Congrats on your progress , can bus system is pretty complicated and a big parts of a lot of new cars out there. Rewriting over the programs is going to be a challenge if that's your goal probably not impossible.

    It would be nice to desensitize the system a little would make a whole new riding experience

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    Wish there were more hours in the day (or the weekend at least ). Lots to reply to here but I've only got access to these tools for a few more hours.

    What is the easiest "error code" that is harmless and easy to cause / clear? I'm curious if the error codes listed in the manual map to data on the bus. Does what I am saying make sense? I want to trigger an error on purpose and make the Spyder throw an error. Then I want to be able to clear it and see if I can decode it.

    David

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    Motorbike Professor NancysToy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spyder Monkey View Post
    Wish there were more hours in the day (or the weekend at least ). Lots to reply to here but I've only got access to these tools for a few more hours.

    What is the easiest "error code" that is harmless and easy to cause / clear? I'm curious if the error codes listed in the manual map to data on the bus. Does what I am saying make sense? I want to trigger an error on purpose and make the Spyder throw an error. Then I want to be able to clear it and see if I can decode it.

    David
    Open the brake reservoir and push down on the float, simulating a low brake fluid condition. Be gentle, so you don't overflow the corrosive brake fluid...and use a clean tool (or finger) to push down the float. Note that this would indicate the switch position. Unless I am mistaken, the corresponding error code would be interpreted and stored by the processor, so you would be unlikely to see fault codes themselves on the CANbus.
    -Scotty
    2011 Spyder RTS-SM5 (mine)
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    Quote Originally Posted by NancysToy View Post
    Open the brake reservoir and push down on the float, simulating a low brake fluid condition. Be gentle, so you don't overflow the corrosive brake fluid...and use a clean tool (or finger) to push down the float. Note that this would indicate the switch position. Unless I am mistaken, the corresponding error code would be interpreted and stored by the processor, so you would be unlikely to see fault codes themselves on the CANbus.
    Yeah but they have to be transmitted to the cluster so it can display them.

    David

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    Motorbike Professor NancysToy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spyder Monkey View Post
    Yeah but they have to be transmitted to the cluster so it can display them.

    David
    Not if they are interpreted and stored in the cluster.
    -Scotty
    2011 Spyder RTS-SM5 (mine)
    2000 BMW R1100RTP, motorized tricycle & 23 vintage bikes
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    Quote Originally Posted by finless View Post
    That's great progress!

    It would be so cool if one day we could have our own BUDs on the cheap. Maybe not ability to flash software but to clear codes for things like changing your own break fluid, etc.

    Keep up the good work man!

    Bob
    No desire to mess with the firmware that controls this thing. Think of the liability if I introduce a bug that causes the vehicle stability system to freak out and hurt somebody. Remember this thing is somewhat unstable with the nanny.

    Quote Originally Posted by wd5gnr View Post
    Nice work. Where are you tapping the bus? If you go with option D I might be able to help there as I have a fair amount of experience in that area.

    What I would like is enough info to put my gauges out on WiFi, velcro an old Android phone to my dash and let it mirror image the data to reflect in the windshield as a HUD ;-)

    Or something like that.
    I'm tapping the bus at the same place BUDS connects. I just bought a mating connector for that 6 pin diagnostic connector. Search earlier posts by me if you want the details. I have all the hardware in hand to hook an Android phone to the diagnostic bus. Understanding the data is another story.

    Quote Originally Posted by ARCTIC View Post
    What if you were able to get a hold of a buds tool? Would you be able to crack the code?
    It would help very much but I cannot guarantee success. But it is a lot easier to decode the conversation if I could see both sides at once.

    Quote Originally Posted by NancysToy View Post
    The only special tool is the cable, which can be purchased from BRP. BUDS is the software, which is protected as I understand it.
    Dunno... this is where I get a little nervous. I have a copy of BUDS software provided to me by someone who wishes to remain anonymous (and I will respect that). I installed BUDS and it never asked for a license key or presented a software terms of use agreement. Of course that does not change that the software is not my property and that I don't know if I can legally reverse engineer it. I'm not really interested in doing anything that would make me lose my PE license.

    Quote Originally Posted by billrob71 View Post
    Congrats on your progress , can bus system is pretty complicated and a big parts of a lot of new cars out there. Rewriting over the programs is going to be a challenge if that's your goal probably not impossible.

    It would be nice to desensitize the system a little would make a whole new riding experience
    Again, no desire to reprogram. Just want to be able to troubleshoot and do basic maintenance.

    David

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    Motorbike Professor NancysToy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rattigan_Roger View Post
    The cluster has to get them somehow and the only avenue is the CANBUS.
    The cluster doesn't need the fault codes if it reads the sensor and switch inputs directly. It could interpret the inputs and generate the fault codes. Never assume anything.
    -Scotty
    2011 Spyder RTS-SM5 (mine)
    2000 BMW R1100RTP, motorized tricycle & 23 vintage bikes
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    Here's the plan:
    We've got nothing to lose by asking nicely. I'm going to ask nicely with a polite letter explaining what I want and why I want it. If you want to help, send your own polite letter to the contact information at http://www.brp.com/en-us/company/con.../north-america. What you are asking for is the protocol information for your vehicle diagnostic bus.


    I also found the following website: http://www.righttorepair.org/main/default.aspx and I was right... this is a big deal in Massachusetts but I don't think it is quite law yet: http://massrighttorepair.com/.

    I am not a lawyer nor am I looking for a legal fight. But I know we have at least one lawyer around here. If anyone with professional knowledge of the topics we're discussing wants to help, I'll provide the facts needed to explain the issue.

    If anyone has access to that MPI cable or can get a part number / price, I'd be curious to know how much it costs. Maybe we could take up a collection to buy one so we can figure this out and then build a lower cost version.

    Thanks for the responses, I'll keep you posted but it is now time for me to start working on things that pay the bills.

    David

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