To SHIFT or NOT TO SHIFT

[poordom]

Good morning All,

I think I have read everything pertaining to RS M5 shifting and I am still confused, can someone give me information.

There was something I had read that actually showed the speed range in which to shift up or down, naturally I can't find it anywhere.

I have been trying to go by the RPM, but I find that doesn't seem right if I use the 5500 RPM as a rule of thumb to shift.

Therefore can someone give me the following info.


RPM RANGE SPEED RANGE

From 1 to 2 gear (From to ) (From to )
From 2 to 3 gear (From to ) (From to )
From 3 to 4 gear (From to ) (From to )
From 4 to 5 gear (From to ) (From to

Thanks folks for your assistance to a new kid on the block.

Before I forget, how can I tell if my clutch need adjustment, my friction point is way at the end.

Dom

[warp10]

just shift after 4500 rpm's. doesn't have to be at 4500rpm's, could be 5500 or 6500 or 7500. the important thing is not to shift at too low of rpm's.

[bullant12]

As well stated by Illinois Boy's Do's & Do not's: http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/s...-Spyder-owners

Best performance is realized by most when keeping your Spyder's RPM's at 4300 or higher no matter what gear you are in at any time (First-gear being the exception, of course).

• Keep in mind; this does NOT mean to shift at 4300 rpm’s; but rather to shift at higher rpm’s so that the rpm’s only drop to 4300 when engaged in the next, higher gear.
• If ever shifting at 4300 rpm’s, it will drop the rpm’s close to the “clutch-locked” rpm of around 3500; which is fine as long as you stay at or above that. I personally do not recommend running your Spyder in those low ranges though.

DO NOT USE ALL 5-GEARS ALL THE TIME: Just because the Spyder has 5-gears does NOT mean you have to always use all of them all the time! Apparently there are far too many who assume they have to shift their Spyder up to fifth-gear no matter what their speed is, and this could be a problem.

• You DO NOT have to use all five gears every time you ride your Spyder! Get over what ever is making you think you need to.
• Keep in mind the recommendation of keeping your rpm’s at 4300 and higher. If you keep your rpm’s at 4300 or higher you sometimes cannot up-shift to a higher gear without dropping below 4300.
• Example: When cruising around town at 39 to 49 MPH you should not leave 3rd-gear. You should stay in 3rd-gear in that scenario.
• You can cruise between 39 - 49 MPH all day in 3rd-gear. It is okay to do so.
• Shifting to 4th-gear in that scenario will drop the RPM's below the 4300 range; which strains the Spyder's ability to perform at its best power-range and diminishes the performance and enjoyment of your machine.
• The Rotax engine starts providing its power at around 5000 rpm’s and higher. Running your Rotax engine within its peak power-band provides more power, and possibly better fuel consumption and less stress on it.
  
  • Those who believe they are being more gentle on their Rotax by running at low rpm’s and while in higher gears are likely doing the exact opposite. Instead, they are potentially causing more stress; which can lead to other problems later on.
  
  
  
• To get power (torque) at anything below 5000 RPM's is dependent on you being in the correct (lower) gear while keeping the rpm’s up to at least 4300 at minimum. Anything less simply delivers lack-luster power to the wheels. You will know it when you increase the throttle and your Spyder does not respond with any "pep" or feels too mushy.
• Operating a vehicle more safely requires it be operated at its peak performance-range.
• You will know it eventually by “feel”; to where there is always power available at the throttle always. If your Spyder feels “mushy” at the throttle, then downshift.

SHIFTING-POINT SUGGESTIONS for a RTS-SE5 (it applies to SM5's as well):
1st to 2nd-gear: Shift when speed is between 22 MPH and 29+ MPH - no sooner!
2nd to 3rd-gear: Shift when rpm's are at 5,100+ (5,100 rpm's in 2nd gear is at 39 MPH. Up-shifting to 3rd gear drops the rpm’s to 4,300 -- exactly the rpm's you want to stay above.)
3rd to 4th-gear: Shift when rpm's are at 5,100+ (5,100 rpm's in 3rd gear is at 49 MPH -- again, up-shifting to 4th drops the rpm’s to 4,300.)
4th to 5th-gear: Shift to 5th only when you reach 65 MPH on level terrain.

• You can ride ALL-DAY in 4th-gear between 49 MPH up to and including 65 MPH. (Some run at much higher rpm's than that.)
• If you are cruising between 49 MPH and 65 MPH, you do not need to use 5th gear. It is okay to ride in 4th-gear in this range all day, for hours on end, and for as long as you own your Spyder. Simply resist shifting to 5th-gear in that range.
• NOTE: Cruising in 4th gear between 63-65 MPH will have the rpm's in the mid 5,000 rpm range -- which begins to put the engine in its better performance-range (more power) which is what you want!
• You will likely find your Spyder will run quieter, smoother, and still have power at the throttle in that rpm range, and the dreaded "belt-vibration" might not be a problem when you finally get used to the above suggestions.

5th-gear: Use only when you are at a minimum of 65 MPH and on level terrain... and downshift on the hills.

• On hilly terrain, you'll need to upshift and downshift frequently to keep the Spyder's rpm’s above 4300 rpm's at minimum.
• Do not let your Spyder lug it's way uphills! You should be treated so poorly for doing so.

[Ga Blue Knight]

good advice above try to shift up at least 4,000 to 4,500 rpms as a minimum. The clutch does not fully engage until around 3,000 rpms so above 4,000 should be safe. You can let the Spyder downshift for you but many prefer to use engine braking on the downshift to slow the bike or just to get more torque when going up hill. I up and down shift on my own to have more control over my ride. If I am just cruising around I ride at 5,000 to 6,000 rpms but if I feel frisky I am in the 6,500 to 8,000 range. The Rotax motor love high rpms and your shifts will be effortless, no clunking or hesitation.

[Chupaca]

I shift by the rpm's. Don't worry it takes some time to get used to because these engines unlike other V-twins like high rev's. I now have to watch it when driving the car it is more a low rpm engine. Someone must have it by mph and will share with you...!!

[bullant12]

good advice above try to shift up at least 4,000 to 4,500 rpms as a minimum. The clutch does not fully engage until around 3,000 rpms so above 4,000 should be safe. You can let the Spyder downshift for you but many prefer to use engine braking on the downshift to slow the bike or just to get more torque when going up hill. I up and down shift on my own to have more control over my ride. If I am just cruising around I ride at 5,000 to 6,000 rpms but if I feel frisky I am in the 6,500 to 8,000 range. The Rotax motor love high rpms and your shifts will be effortless, no clunking or hesitation.

I think the OP has an SM5...

[Bob Ledford]

The simplistic way to ride or drive your Spyder is by feel. Look for the sweet spot in the way that every thing feels like it is in sync within itself. Very hard to put into words. Another way to say it maybe like, the feeling that you should get when your in the shifting point range on the tach. I can feel my sweet spot and quickly glance at the tach on be spot on the shift point range

[BajaRon]

I think the OP has an SM5...

Exactly. His clutch locks up as soon as he releases the clutch lever, regardless of RPM. He may kill the engine if he shifts at too low an RPM, or he may be lugging the engine (creating different issues), but he won't get clutch slippage.

In reality, there isn't any 'Magic' RPM for shifting because the needed RPM to prevent clutch slippage depends on the situation.

Pay attention next time you drive your automatic transmission car (if it has a tach). If you're going down an incline and you let off the gas, it will up-shift and you may be running 1,500 RPM. The clutches are fully engaged and there is no problem. Nor are you lugging the engine under this condition.

Granted, the torque converter on a car is designed to slip and the clutch on your SE5 is not. But the point is, it is a matter of torque force vs. clutch friction. When the torque force is very low it takes very little clutch friction to prevent slippage. So, you do not NECESSARILY need high RPM depending on the situation.

As the torque factor rises (when you are accelerating or traveling at a higher speed) more clutch friction is required to achieve and maintain lockup.

There is an RPM at which maximum clutch friction is applied on the SE5 Spyder and there will be no slippage regardless of the circumstances. This is the number which most people quote as the 'Do Not Go Below' RPM.

So, you can safely run your SE5 Spyder at lower RPM under certain circumstances without creating any issues. The problem comes when we get lazy and instead of downshifting when we should, we just roll on the throttle at a too low RPM.

[Brogers57]

Good morning All,

I think I have read everything pertaining to RS M5 shifting and I am still confused, can someone give me information.

There was something I had read that actually showed the speed range in which to shift up or down, naturally I can't find it anywhere.

I have been trying to go by the RPM, but I find that doesn't seem right if I use the 5500 RPM as a rule of thumb to shift.

Therefore can someone give me the following info.


RPM RANGE SPEED RANGE

From 1 to 2 gear (From to ) (From to )
From 2 to 3 gear (From to ) (From to )
From 3 to 4 gear (From to ) (From to )From 4 to 5 gear (From to ) (From to

Thanks folks for your assistance to a new kid on the block.

Before I forget, how can I tell if my clutch need adjustment, my friction point is way at the end.

Dom

I have a RS SM5 and I always try to keep my RPM's above 4200 if possible. I normally switch gears around 4900-5200. Of course it all depends on what type of riding I am doing and where I am. Around curves n such I try to keep the RPM's high as it seems easier to turn.

[poordom]

WOW,

Thank you so much everyone, the information provided is incredible, not something you would find in every book.

Thanks again.

Dom

[Daisyjoe]

The simplistic way to ride or drive your Spyder is by feel. Look for the sweet spot in the way that every thing feels like it is in sync within itself. Very hard to put into words. Another way to say it maybe like, the feeling that you should get when your in the shifting point range on the tach. I can feel my sweet spot and quickly glance at the tach on be spot on the shift point range

I totally agree with you on this. I have a 2010 RS SE5 and a 2013 RTS SE5. Different animals When I first got on the site (2 years ago), I would read about shifting into 5th gear around 63 to 65 MPH. I could not figure out why my RS did not conform to this method. I soon realized I needed to ride the bike by the feel. I,too, learned the sweet spot. Just keep riding. Pretty soon it will come natural. Oh yeah, on the RTS the 5th shift is 63 to 65.

[asp125]

It (shifting) doesn't have to be an exact science. What you are trying to do by selecting the right gear, is the keep the motor in its sweet spot; where it's designed to give the best combination of power and efficiency. If you look at a dyno chart you can see the Spyder has its happy place between 5000 and 6500 rpm, ideally the sweet spot is where the horsepower (upper) and torque (lower) curves cross, and where the torque curve peaks. In this example around 5200 rpm.


Below 4500 you have torque to get going, but not much horsepower to keep going. Above 7000 you have power to cruise, but the torque falls off to make accelerating sluggish. As you can also see, there's really no need to run past 7500 rpms because you start to lose Hp again.

In hot rodding there's a saying "you talk Hp but you drive torque", meaning Hp numbers are great bragging rights, but where a motor feels most responsive is at the top section of its torque curve.

[NancysToy]

just shift after 4500 rpm's. doesn't have to be at 4500rpm's, could be 5500 or 6500 or 7500. the important thing is not to shift at too low of rpm's.

If you want to figure what speed that is at, glance at the speedometer. Keep in mind that it also depends on the terrain and how hard you are working the engine. Cruising along at 3,500 rpm at 35 mph in 3rd gear may be OK on a flat road with no passenger or trailer, but the engine will struggle at that rpm on hills, riding two-up, or towing. The peak performance of the Spyder engine doesn't kick in until 5,000 rpm or above. Once you experience what the engine really has to offer, you may not want to ever short shift it again. From 5K to the redline it runs very nicely!

[C_Boogie]

This is great info guys. I'm going to practice this when I get home from work. Thankfully, I only have 185 miles on my bike thus far, but I have been doing alot of shifting at relatively low RPM's.

[ARtraveler]

I am also one who recommends shifting by RPM instead of specific speeds. The recommendation to shift at 5000 and above are right on, IMO also. I usually shift at about 5500. The does like high revs, and yes, it seems noisy at that point--but--you get used to it. The does perform well in those situations and is always ready to "go" when you hit the throttle.

Just because there are five gears does not mean you have to use them all, all of the time. I do not usually shift mine into 5th unless I am cruising at 60+mph on a highway. Around town--35-40mph, I am usually in second gear.

[asp125]

Another thing..

I find that timing your shifts are critical when two up. Leave it too late or mis-timing your shifts and you're playing bump the helmets with your passenger. Being smooth requires you to learn the sweet spot of the motor.

How many of you pre-load your shifter? By that I mean applying light pressure on it BEFORE you pull in the clutch. If you time your shifts right around 4500 or so, when you pull in the shift lever the Spyder will just click into the next gear instantly.

[paulbrinker]

My wife is learning to drive the Spyder and was looking for a simpler way to know when to shift. Since she is not mechanically inclined, and does not have the habit of looking at the tach, I told her to shift after the speeds of 28, 38, 48, & 58 mph, which equates to about 5000 rpms. She said that she can handle that and it gives her one less thing to look at and monitor.

[BajaRon]

So in other words, the Spyder engines are way under powered?

Why would you say that?

[NancysToy]

So in other words, the Spyder engines are way under powered?

No, they just have their power band higher than where some other engines have theirs. Apples and oranges, my friend, apples and oranges.

[Dan McNally]

So in other words, the Spyder engines are way under powered?

No . . . they are just different . . . they are a high RPM engine.

[BajaRon]

No, they just have their power band higher than where some other engines have theirs. Apples and oranges, my friend, apples and oranges.

Or maybe sour grapes and lemons.....

[asp125]

So in other words, the Spyder engines are way under powered?

I agree! We got short changed! The same Rotax 990 in the Aprilia makes way more HP. Engine Type V990 - Can-Am Spyder, reverse trike 95–106 hp (71–79 kW), Aprilia (RSV 1000, Tuono) 139 hp (104 kW)

I'd love a 139Hp Spyder.

But back to your comment.. compared to what? The Revolution motor in the V-Rod makes what, 126?

[NancysToy]

...and a big block Chevy can make well over 500 HP in a Boss Hoss, while the old Supercub made 5 HP. It's all relative. You don't buy a pickup truck then complain that it is not a convertible. JMHO

[BajaRon]

I agree! We got short changed! The same Rotax 990 in the Aprilia makes way more HP. Engine Type V990 - Can-Am Spyder, reverse trike 95–106 hp (71–79 kW), Aprilia (RSV 1000, Tuono) 139 hp (104 kW)

I'd love a 139Hp Spyder.

But back to your comment.. compared to what? The Revolution motor in the V-Rod makes what, 126?

Here is the reason you don't want an engine designed for an extremely aerodynamic, 400 pound race motorcycle trying to push around your 700-900 pound Spyder (not counting 2nd passenger + cargo + trailer) with the aerodynamics of a barn door.

The power curve on the Spyder Rotax looks more like a table top. On the Aprilia it is a mountain top. It's not so much the amount of HP/Torque you get, but where you get it an how long it lasts.

You think people have trouble getting used to the high RPM needed to keep our current Rotax happy at 4,500 plus? Try keeping things above 7,000 RPM where the power curve gets going on the Aprilia version, with peak HP at over 10,000 RPM.

While this may look tempting to some, after a few minutes of riding this configuration you'd be more than ready to go back to your Spyder version of this engine. The Spyder is designed to ride, not to race. If you want race, buy an Aprilia.

Do you think it was easier and less expensive to completely redesign and re-engineer the Aprilia Rotax engine than it would have been to simply leave it alone and bolt it up to the Spyder? For that matter, why aren't people buying up wrecked Aprilia's and swapping out engines? Should be easier and less expensive than boring out a stock engine and putting a turbo on it.

Believe me, there is more to life than peak HP.

[chris56]

So in other words, the Spyder engines are way under powered?

its strong enough to follow a bike - sometimes you need the higher RPMs