@$@%#%^@ Limp Mode!

[jmcbow]

I love the Spyder, that said, I hate the Limp Mode feature. I'm about half way home from work last night when I see the engine light come on and then the display starts flasing "Engine Oil" and goes into limp mode. I got her home and checked the oil level which was fine. I road over to the dealer and had them plug it into the computer to see if it would throw a code. Sure enough, the tech got a "gear sensor" code. Why that code produced an "engine oil" light he couldn't explain. He reset the computer, double checked the oil level and told me to drive it and if it lit up again bring it back in to replace the gear position sensor. Well, this morning on the way to work, yea, limp mode again. Although this time it didn't stay in limp mode, instead the lights went out after a few seconds and it seemed ok after that. I know BRP designed a lot of safety into this machine, but to go into limp mode because of a faulty gear position sensor blows. You would think that only certain faults would neccesitate limp mode to protect the engine and drive train. So tonight it's back to the dealer for a new sensor, I seem to recall having to replace this same sensor on my 08 RS. Has anyone else had this happen to their RT/RS?

[Lamonster]

I wish they would rethink the whole limp mode idea. At least make it so you really knew what was bad instead of it throwing codes for everything.

[Bob Denman]

The computers can only do what they've been programmed for; let's blame the code-writers for this one!
Their Kung Fu needs to be stronger...

[ARtraveler]

x 2

[SteveMac]

I wish they would rethink the whole limp mode idea. At least make it so you really knew what was bad instead of it throwing codes for everything.

[pro10is]

Here's the deal. It's not easy to design a stable three wheeled vehicle. The Spyder's design requires the use of a computer controlled system to give it enough virtual inherent stability to be considered safe enough to use by a typical rider. Unlike most stability systems found on four wheeled vehicles where the VSS is considered only an enhancement, the Spyder's VSS is considered essential. The proof of this lies in the the fact that unlike most typical vehicle stability systems the Spyder's VSS cannot be switched off.

BRP had to meet a realistic price point for this vehicle and they examined the need and cost of each and every component. So the entire VSS system had to be relatively low cost. Unlike say a fighter jet or even a Ferrari, there was no room in the budget for expensive, ultra-reliable, high performance components or multiple redundant systems. The VSS had to be inexpensive, each and every component; the computer, the memory, the sensors, the wiring, everything. So your nanny's a pauper, she wears cheap clothes and is missing a few teeth. The software design could then in turn use only what minimal processing power, memory, and the few low cost sensors that were financially practical. Please don't fault BRP for this, quite the contrary. Only truly great engineering can bring you something complex for an affordable price. Overall they did an incredible job, but of course there had to be compromises and every design has its flaws.

So as a system designer what do you do when your low cost, limited functionality, zero redundancy, but highly essential stability system is compromised or even apparently compromised? You go into limp mode that's what you do, and you go into it quick. You can't let the rider who is used to the regular level of stability continue on as normal. If he takes a corner at speed with the VSS off line and the Spyder wipes out BRP could be held liable. You also want him to get the bike to the dealer asap so you make limp mode something he can't possibly live with by limiting the speed severely, perhaps more so than really needed for safety.

BRP is aware of the problems with limp mode and you can bet it's been a topic of discussion at internal meetings. I can hear the engineers offering alternate solutions while the corporate liability attorney and/or management says no freaking way. They're all just doing their job. It's probably still being looked at.

As a systems and software engineer I try to think of what can be done to improve the situation. The first thing I would do would be to release a software change to cut power gradually rather than abruptly to resolve the issue of the rider loosing power suddenly on the highway which is very unsafe in itself. The next thing I would do is to study all the causes of VSS failure to try to find a way to minimize the number of occurrences. I would first look for software solutions because these can be implemented far less expensively than hardware recalls and therefore have a much better chance of being approved for implementation. However, whatever was done would have to be thoroughly tested and retested before being implemented because of liability issues, and that would take time, lots of time.

So that's what's going on for all of you who are wondering why nothing has yet been done about this. I'm not making excuses for BRP, I'm just telling you what's going on based upon all my years of experience in such situations.

BRP is a vast company and produces many, many products. They have only so much time and money to invest in released product improvement and like any properly run company they have to invest their available resources wisely. They'll base the effort expended to fix any single problem on any single product on immediate need and ROI (return on investment). A significant factor in this decision is customer feedback. If a lot of customers or dealers are upset enough about a problem to actually take the time and effort to write to a manufacturer, it should get attention. A lot of people grumble about limp mode but how many are motivated enough to actually contact BRP about it? If you feel strongly enough about this issue and you want it fixed, you're going to have to be a squeaky wheel.

[Mexican]

What really worries me is the spyder going to limp mode in the middle of the freeway at 75 mph and getting demolished by a semi from behind

[currin20fan]

Fortunately, I have not experienced Limp Mode and don't want to. But believe me, if it were to happen my letter would be to BRP just as soon as I could write it. Complaining about something to all on this great forum might not get the message across to BRP. WRITE THE LETTER FOLKS!!!

[Grandpa Spyder]

Fortunately, I have not experienced Limp Mode and don't want to. But believe me, if it were to happen my letter would be to BRP just as soon as I could write it. Complaining about something to all on this great forum might not get the message across to BRP. WRITE THE LETTER FOLKS!!!

Yeah, what he said.

[Wichita Mikey]

I live in Airzona. What Do I do rideing in the desert roads and goes into limp mode and no dealers around for couple hundred miles with temperature over 100 ++ degrees

[edrn]

That happened to me last Thursday!!! See my thread multiple engine codes. Edrn

What really worries me is the spyder going to limp mode in the middle of the freeway at 75 mph and getting demolished by a semi from behind

[jmcbow]

Well, after a few days in the shop, the dealer confirmed that the "Engine Oil" light and subsequent Limp Mode was due to a bad oil pressure sensor. So, $300 later, Spyder is home and all is well, I hope. Of course, Spydie was 38 days out of warranty. So the cost of repairs was mine, althought, they did put in a call to BRP to see if they might cut me some slack on the repair as it was just out of warranty. Had the oil changed while she was in so hopefully I'm good for the rest of the season now.

[pro10is]

With all due respect I believe you are confusing the VSS stability program, developed by Bosch and the ECU engine/vehicle program.
True a VSS fault triggers a Limp Mode but these two programs are not the same.

Yes, technically I should have said VSS/ECU system as they both can trigger a limp mode and are integrated. Thank you for the correction.

[Dragonrider]

WM - at least you're probably somewhere where you can ride at 30 mph to get home…. Limp mode doesn't kill the bike, just limits the speed to 30ish - having it happen at 70+ while driving a SE, should give the BRP lawyers nightmares… at least with the SM, you can pull in the clutch. This will nail one of us someday.

Been there, done that, & have the "T" shirt…..

[Littlebadwolf]

Here's the deal. It's not easy to design a stable three wheeled vehicle. The Spyder's design requires the use of a computer controlled system to give it enough virtual inherent stability to be considered safe enough to use by a typical rider. Unlike most stability systems found on four wheeled vehicles where the VSS is considered only an enhancement, the Spyder's VSS is considered essential. The proof of this lies in the the fact that unlike most typical vehicle stability systems the Spyder's VSS cannot be switched off.

BRP had to meet a realistic price point for this vehicle and they examined the need and cost of each and every component. So the entire VSS system had to be relatively low cost. Unlike say a fighter jet or even a Ferrari, there was no room in the budget for expensive, ultra-reliable, high performance components or multiple redundant systems. The VSS had to be inexpensive, each and every component; the computer, the memory, the sensors, the wiring, everything. So your nanny's a pauper, she wears cheap clothes and is missing a few teeth. The software design could then in turn use only what minimal processing power, memory, and the few low cost sensors that were financially practical. Please don't fault BRP for this, quite the contrary. Only truly great engineering can bring you something complex for an affordable price. Overall they did an incredible job, but of course there had to be compromises and every design has its flaws.

So as a system designer what do you do when your low cost, limited functionality, zero redundancy, but highly essential stability system is compromised or even apparently compromised? You go into limp mode that's what you do, and you go into it quick. You can't let the rider who is used to the regular level of stability continue on as normal. If he takes a corner at speed with the VSS off line and the Spyder wipes out BRP could be held liable. You also want him to get the bike to the dealer asap so you make limp mode something he can't possibly live with by limiting the speed severely, perhaps more so than really needed for safety.

BRP is aware of the problems with limp mode and you can bet it's been a topic of discussion at internal meetings. I can hear the engineers offering alternate solutions while the corporate liability attorney and/or management says no freaking way. They're all just doing their job. It's probably still being looked at.

As a systems and software engineer I try to think of what can be done to improve the situation. The first thing I would do would be to release a software change to cut power gradually rather than abruptly to resolve the issue of the rider loosing power suddenly on the highway which is very unsafe in itself. The next thing I would do is to study all the causes of VSS failure to try to find a way to minimize the number of occurrences. I would first look for software solutions because these can be implemented far less expensively than hardware recalls and therefore have a much better chance of being approved for implementation. However, whatever was done would have to be thoroughly tested and retested before being implemented because of liability issues, and that would take time, lots of time.

So that's what's going on for all of you who are wondering why nothing has yet been done about this. I'm not making excuses for BRP, I'm just telling you what's going on based upon all my years of experience in such situations.

BRP is a vast company and produces many, many products. They have only so much time and money to invest in released product improvement and like any properly run company they have to invest their available resources wisely. They'll base the effort expended to fix any single problem on any single product on immediate need and ROI (return on investment). A significant factor in this decision is customer feedback. If a lot of customers or dealers are upset enough about a problem to actually take the time and effort to write to a manufacturer, it should get attention. A lot of people grumble about limp mode but how many are motivated enough to actually contact BRP about it? If you feel strongly enough about this issue and you want it fixed, you're going to have to be a squeaky wheel.

I'd say that you put a lot of thought into your posted response due to the fact that I was a system designer/programmer in the relational database arena and you're virtually hunting for a needle in a haystack when it comes to what's throwing the codes and the limp mode situation...The only problem I have besides the fact that if you're cruising down the highway at a speedy clip and limp mode pops up...you've got to hang onto your seat AND you have to bring your Spyder back to the dealer, convince them that there's a problem and it needs to be hooked up to the BUDS to verify that fact and you get charged...again...and again...and again...and again... at our local rate of $78 per hour...They then reset everything, send you on your way and you're supposed to be a happy camper until it happens again..thus throwing you back into the same loop over and over again...How much money to we have to throw at our very expensive toys to rectify simple problems...not even mentioning the complicated problems...And how about knowing that the tech at the dealer has been trained and qualified to work on your Spyder?...I for one have spent over $700 to get my GPS hooked up and a set of HID lights installed and much to my displeasure they didn't get it right and basically told me not to ask them to do modifications unless it was a BRP issued product...We've got 2 of these machines and we love them but BRP better take some action to rectify simple common problems....and for clarificationj...I went to another off brand dealership to get my GPS and lights installed properly at a whopping cost of $165.00...and they work perfectly despite the fact that my dealer told me that the problem was they were not OEM products....A Garmin 660 GPS and a set of the XENON HIDS...which numerous people have installed with absolutely zero problems...so what gives?

[Littlebadwolf]

What sucks is getting charged over and over again to have the dealership hook up the buds and charging you for very expensive labor..

[Arr MiHardies]

If they are going to force a limp mode on us, emergency flashers should kick on automatically, and there should be a countdown to when the rpms/mph get limited so you have time to get out of harms way. This warning and countdown should appear flashing on the display, as well as an audible alarm through the speakers if so equipped. 30 seconds or so should be sufficient and shouldn't do any major harm to the engine. And if it does... Small price to pay for not getting splattered by a semi truck.

[Arr MiHardies]

What sucks is getting charged over and over again to have the dealership hook up the buds and charging you for very expensive labor..

If they didn't fix it right the first time, they shouldn't be charging you labor for the second attempt, IMO. Seems to me there is at let some implied guarantee that the work they performed was done correctly. Check the fine print of their service docs.

And if they can't figure out how to install HIDs that are known to work with the Spyder... You don't want to be using that service department anyways. I'm not a trained mechanic and even I could figure it out and do it myself. Getting the panels and headlights off was the biggest part of the operation.

[J. Mark]

Not sure if this is for real or not, but I do trust the source. When I was at the dealership today, I was told that the recent throttle body software recall update (may be calling this by wrong name) disables the systems ability to go into limp mode and replaces it with a major check engine notice on the electronic screen? Would love to hear if someone knows something to the contrary.

[TexasSpyder]

I am picking up my 12 RTLtd from the 600 mile service tomorrow. The service manager called a few days ago and said there was a new update that was to be delivered to him Wed. and could he keep my RT till Friday so he could install it. He sounded like it was something that I really should do. When I pick it up I'll ask about it to see if that is included .
J. D.

[Utah Geezer]

My RTLtd is in for a throttle body recall as well. Dealership said it will take a week for them to get to it due to some other issues as well. Share whatever you find out on this. No limp mode would be a good thing. Can you put a little blue pill in the tank to fix the limp mode if it happens? Owned the machine two weeks now and in the shop already. Hope this isn't a sign of the things to come.

[jmcbow]

What sucks is getting charged over and over again to have the dealership hook up the buds and charging you for very expensive labor..

I think you need to find another dealer, I have stopped by my dealer more than once when I was having problems and asked them to hook it up to the computer, not only did they not charge me, I stood right there as they pulled up the codes. As far as aftermarket stuff goes, again, my dealer has installed both OEM and aftermarket farkles on the Spyder and always did a professional job and didn't "hose me" cost wise either. There are good and bad dealerships, like most things in life.

It would really be nice if they could eliminate the limp mode, unfortunately, I think someones previous post hit the nail on the head. Once the computer senses a problem that might compromise the VSS, they want to try to ensure rider safety, hence, the dreaded "LIMP MODE". Let's hope as time goes by they can tweak the code and eliminate some instances that might cause limp mode, not sure they'll ever be able to totally eliminate it on a vehicle with a VSS system.

[Jeriatric]

Excellent comment - hope everyone here reads it.

And, I hope BRP is listening. Because you *REALLY* hit the nail on the head here.

"The first thing I would do would be to release a software change to cut power gradually rather than abruptly to resolve the issue of the rider loosing power suddenly on the highway which is very unsafe in itself."

[TexasSpyder]

I am picking up my 12 RTLtd from the 600 mile service tomorrow. The service manager called a few days ago and said there was a new update that was to be delivered to him Wed. and could he keep my RT till Friday so he could install it. He sounded like it was something that I really should do. When I pick it up I'll ask about it to see if that is included .
J. D.

When I picked up my ride today, I talked at length with the service Mgr. about the "limp mode" problems mentioned in this thread. He said he personally has had only 1 person with a limp mode problem. It seems the person liked to ride extremely fast and was doing some severe lane changes above 70 mph and the tire lifted slightly from the pavement causing the limp mode to come on. He also said that it would reset itself with no dealer visit necessary.
J. D.

[CycleChamp]

I seem to recall reading somewhere in the past that if one just parks the Spyder, turns the key off, takes the key out and walks away for a few minutes (go get a cup of coffee or whatever) and come back after a short period of time and the the Limp Mode will have re-set itself back to "normal".
Or did I just dream this??