Disappointment

[2Gunns]

I am the manager of a manufacturing facility, not BRP, but I know a thing or two about quality control. I've spent years in a tireless effort towards continuous improvement. Last year, my facilty achieved a 98.5% QC efficiency rating, the highest ever in the company. While I'm extremely proud of my employees for this accomplishment, it still drives me nuts that 1.5% of the product leaving my plant is being rejected by the customer. The only way I have been able to accept this is by acknowledging the fact that "Stuff happens"! Not excusing, just accepting the reality that unless your initials are JC and you can walk on water, perfection is just out of the grasp of man.

Scotty's case is obviously an extreme…. I don't think he got the "last unit out the door on Friday afternoon", it's more like "the weekend cleanup crew decided to have a go on the assembly line".

I'm glad to see that BRP and his Dealer are working with him to resolve these issues and if they can not, I would expect them to replace his RT with a new unit. It has been said on this forum "there is no excuse for this on a $25K bike" and while that is a true statement, it's how BRP handles those that slip through the crack, which will be the tell-all of the company's integrity.

[Wheeler~]

I am the manager of a manufacturing facility, not BRP, but I know a thing or two about quality control. I've spent years in a tireless effort towards continuous improvement. Last year, my facilty achieved a 98.5% QC efficiency rating, the highest ever in the company. While I'm extremely proud of my employees for this accomplishment, it still drives me nuts that 1.5% of the product leaving my plant is being rejected by the customer. The only way I have been able to accept this is by acknowledging the fact that "Stuff happens"! Not excusing, just accepting the reality that unless your initials are JC and you can walk on water, perfection is just out of the grasp of man.

Scotty's case is obviously an extreme…. I don't think he got the "last unit out the door on Friday afternoon", it's more like "the weekend cleanup crew decided to have a go on the assembly line".

I'm glad to see that BRP and his Dealer are working with him to resolve these issues and if they can not, I would expect them to replace his RT with a new unit. It has been said on this forum "there is no excuse for this on a $25K bike" and while that is a true statement, it's how BRP handles those that slip through the crack, which will be the tell-all of the company's integrity.

[skypup]

I am the manager of a manufacturing facility, not BRP, but I know a thing or two about quality control. I've spent years in a tireless effort towards continuous improvement. Last year, my facilty achieved a 98.5% QC efficiency rating, the highest ever in the company. While I'm extremely proud of my employees for this accomplishment, it still drives me nuts that 1.5% of the product leaving my plant is being rejected by the customer. The only way I have been able to accept this is by acknowledging the fact that "Stuff happens"! Not excusing, just accepting the reality that unless your initials are JC and you can walk on water, perfection is just out of the grasp of man.

Scotty's case is obviously an extreme…. I don't think he got the "last unit out the door on Friday afternoon", it's more like "the weekend cleanup crew decided to have a go on the assembly line".

I'm glad to see that BRP and his Dealer are working with him to resolve these issues and if they can not, I would expect them to replace his RT with a new unit. It has been said on this forum "there is no excuse for this on a $25K bike" and while that is a true statement, it's how BRP handles those that slip through the crack, which will be the tell-all of the company's integrity.

I agree. I worked as a production supervisor in the auto industry. QC and production rates are in direct oppostion. The problem for the manufacturer of any product is to strive for 100% QC and get the product to the customer on time. It is a fine balancing act. I had a department which manufactured the electronics for the SIR ie airbags. We needed to assure that these things would not fail. Even at .5% failure rate when you consider the numbers made, the liability would be tremendous. There will be some problems due to machines and people errors. It's the nature of the beast. The most telling signal that you are working with a good company is that they address issues when they come up. Just my 2 cents.

[Gordy]

message for nancys toy I was out ryding my rts today and thinking about the trouble you are having with your steering.My rts is steering better all the time today it was fantastic.I believe you might have a tight ball joint or tie rod end on yours and the steering just stays where you point it.Having worked on steering for a few years I have seen this before hope this is some help. Gord

[NancysToy]

message for nancys toy I was out ryding my rts today and thinking about the trouble you are having with your steering.My rts is steering better all the time today it was fantastic.I believe you might have a tight ball joint or tie rod end on yours and the steering just stays where you point it.Having worked on steering for a few years I have seen this before hope this is some help. Gord

Actually, Gordy, it is probably the opposite, if it isn't just inadequate toe-in. It wanders all over. I wish it would stay where it was pointed! It is encouraging to know that not all are like this, though. Thanks for the comments.

[Wheeler~]

Actually, Gordy, it is probably the opposite, if it isn't just inadequate toe-in. It wanders all over. I wish it would stay where it was pointed! It is encouraging to know that not all are like this, though. Thanks for the comments.

To see if I was experiencing any of your problems today, at 70 mph I took both hands off the handle bars, while in cruise control, and my RT-S stayed true to the road. Didn't wander at all. Hopefully this is further proof your issue is not the norm. Are we on the same page?

[skypup]

Actually, Gordy, it is probably the opposite, if it isn't just inadequate toe-in. It wanders all over. I wish it would stay where it was pointed! It is encouraging to know that not all are like this, though. Thanks for the comments.

I picked up our new RT today. Got to drive it 38 miles on two interstates, I 35 and I 410. The wind was really blowing hard again with a front moving through. I had no handling problems. It is more sensitive to the touch and it turns better at low speeds than my rs did. I use to fly and got to thinking about a phenomena in aviation called PIO's or pilot induced oscillations. Basically, the airplane pitches up and stalls and the nose drops. The pilot pulls back harder to correct and the plane stalls even quicker and harder. This cycle continues without ever getting resolved and there is a crash. I was told by BRP when I took a spyder test ride that people have a tendency to overcontrol in the beginning. I noticed being tense in the beginning and the bike WAS harder to control. Once I could relax my arms the bike smoothed out. Just an unproven theory of mine but there may be something to it.

[NancysToy]

I picked up our new RT today. Got to drive it 38 miles on two interstates, I 35 and I 410. The wind was really blowing hard again with a front moving through. I had no handling problems. It is more sensitive to the touch and it turns better at low speeds than my rs did. I use to fly and got to thinking about a phenomena in aviation called PIO's or pilot induced oscillations. Basically, the airplane pitches up and stalls and the nose drops. The pilot pulls back harder to correct and the plane stalls even quicker and harder. This cycle continues without ever getting resolved and there is a crash. I was told by BRP when I took a spyder test ride that people have a tendency to overcontrol in the beginning. I noticed being tense in the beginning and the bike WAS harder to control. Once I could relax my arms the bike smoothed out. Just an unproven theory of mine but there may be something to it.

The phenomenon you are talking about is common with the Spyder. It is exactly what you theorized. I experienced it two years ago when I first rode a Spyder, and many others have too. A relaxed grip on the handlebars makes it go away.....if your Spyder handles normally. Unfortunately, mine does not! I will be very thankful after it is repaired. One reason I bought it was that the relaxed handling of Nancy's RS spoiled me.

[Wheeler~]

I picked up our new RT today. Got to drive it 38 miles on two interstates, I 35 and I 410. The wind was really blowing hard again with a front moving through. I had no handling problems. It is more sensitive to the touch and it turns better at low speeds than my rs did. I use to fly and got to thinking about a phenomena in aviation called PIO's or pilot induced oscillations. Basically, the airplane pitches up and stalls and the nose drops. The pilot pulls back harder to correct and the plane stalls even quicker and harder. This cycle continues without ever getting resolved and there is a crash. I was told by BRP when I took a spyder test ride that people have a tendency to overcontrol in the beginning. I noticed being tense in the beginning and the bike WAS harder to control. Once I could relax my arms the bike smoothed out. Just an unproven theory of mine but there may be something to it.

and welcome
Keep the tyre side down, ryde hard but ryde safe!

[ThreeWheels]

Further update on the handling:

I got the bike with 14 psi in the front tires. It had a real wiggly ride. Everyone here said pump up the tire pressure, so I did.

I had an opportunity to ride the Demo at Gargano's and it handled very well, much better than my bike.

They checked the alignment and repaired the toe out, putting in a very small amount of toe in to stabilize the bike. Much better ride, but still not as good as I wanted.

My hat's off to Gargano's, they didn't give up.

This morning I went out for a ride with them. I rode my bike, they rode their demo.

A little way out, we swapped bikes. The Demo still had better handling.

We stopped and checked my tire pressure. Before the alignment I had put 27 PSI in the front tires to get them as stiff as possible to stop the wiggle.

NOW, the pressure was too high. The tire patch was too rounded. Dropped the pressure down to 21 PSI. An improvement. Dropped the pressure again to 17 PSI, and it's a whole new bike. Much more stable. I may drop the pressure down a few more pounds, back down to 14.

Net Net, I'm feeling pretty good about things now. If I can only get the damn seagulls from crapping on the bike. They're rats with wings.

[8 Legged Freak]

IMHO, I get a better ride at 17 psi than 14 psi.

just my opin.

[NancysToy]

Further update on the handling:

I got the bike with 14 psi in the front tires. It had a real wiggly ride. Everyone here said pump up the tire pressure, so I did.

I had an opportunity to ride the Demo at Gargano's and it handled very well, much better than my bike.

They checked the alignment and repaired the toe out, putting in a very small amount of toe in to stabilize the bike. Much better ride, but still not as good as I wanted.

My hat's off to Gargano's, they didn't give up.

This morning I went out for a ride with them. I rode my bike, they rode their demo.

A little way out, we swapped bikes. The Demo still had better handling.

We stopped and checked my tire pressure. Before the alignment I had put 27 PSI in the front tires to get them as stiff as possible to stop the wiggle.

NOW, the pressure was too high. The tire patch was too rounded. Dropped the pressure down to 21 PSI. An improvement. Dropped the pressure again to 17 PSI, and it's a whole new bike. Much more stable. I may drop the pressure down a few more pounds, back down to 14.

Net Net, I'm feeling pretty good about things now. If I can only get the damn seagulls from crapping on the bike. They're rats with wings.

I would not recommend 14 psi. It is less than the minimum pressure listed on the tire sidewall.

[reconspyder]

I couldn't agree more with Nancy's toy!! I have RT-S #230 and it for lack of a better word is very dissapointing!! Anyone want to buy an RT limited?

[ThreeWheels]

I would not recommend 14 psi. It is less than the minimum pressure listed on the tire sidewall.

I know, but it's also a car tire, and the RT weight is so little compared to a car.
I'm not saying 14 is the right number, just that there is room for optimizing the tire pressure. The main point is, I'm now looking at tire pressure instead of mechanical adjustments to the suspension.
On the other hand, I just came back from a two-up ride, with the tires still at 17, it was a wonderful thing.
So I just need to hone in on the right tire pressure, if I'm not there already.

Of course, if I used Nitrogen, then all my tire problems would go away..............................................

[jedd]

Scotty, just read the whole thread and thinking of quality control. BRP has had issues with this on and off for years in sleds then watercraft. It got much better in the turn of the century if memory serves me right, a man named Pierre was CEO at that time and return to quality was his mission. Now BRP has re-organized again in recent history with the splitting of the company, and quality, fit and finish in all BRP products is suffering again I hear horror stories from both sled and watercraft owners. My point is I've seen this cycle before, and with excellent posts like yours, and the help of great people who care like Carlo, I am hopeful BRP will make needed changes to be a World Class Manufacturer of recreational products once again. Very best of luck to you and hope youris repaired expeditiously.

Jim

[BajaRon]

How's this for a wisper?


MM

Amazing! Somehow I never associated NMN with wisper...

[BajaRon]

Wow Scotty! I'm really sorry to hear this. It has to be 'Luck of the Draw'.

The only personal experience I've had with the RT is Lamont's but many seem to be very happy with theirs.

I can tell you Lamont rides his hard and has not complained about handling (other than the stock front shock setting which he detested). He maxed out the front shocks right after he got it and that seemed to work pretty well for him.

I'm sure everyone understands that the RT is not going to handle as well as the RS. Still, it should hold the road pretty well.

Now Lamont is running the Elka's and that gave him even more improvement. But you shouldn't have to install racing shocks to get reasonable handling from the RT.

Your tech's advise of "never start it unless you are going to ride it", and to "carry extra plugs" is ludicrous! How to these people say things like this with a straight face? I haven’t had to follow this advise since I owned a 1970 Kawasaki 500 triple! And that was a carburated 2 stroke! Give me a break!

I think the suggestion that they changed only the offending plug may be accurate and that is what caused the repeat issue. A 2010, fuel injected machine should NOT have plug fouling issues.

I would say the gauges, panel lights, handling and fouling are all correctable issues. With many RT owners being happy with handling it must be something out of sorts with yours.

The paint quality is another matter but it wouldn’t hurt to pursue that as well. Either a repaint or maybe some money back so you can get it painted would be in order.

You paid for a new, well made machine. It is up to BRP to deliver the promised product. I wish it were as simple as that.

I agree with you on the potential of the RT. If you can get it right (or even close) it should be a very sweet ride.

[sts]

Nancy toy I am not sure if anyone mentioned this as this thread is very long. There is a new Part out for the GAS GAUAGE issue. I had the problem with my demo and a few customers. but all are fixed and working great. Have your dealer call Tech support and they will give them the new part number. Very easy fix. Not sure about your other issues seems like you have done everything to try to fix it. Just have not experienced that at all with the few I have driven.

[NancysToy]

Nancy toy I am not sure if anyone mentioned this as this thread is very long. There is a new Part out for the GAS GAUAGE issue. I had the problem with my demo and a few customers. but all are fixed and working great. Have your dealer call Tech support and they will give them the new part number. Very easy fix. Not sure about your other issues seems like you have done everything to try to fix it. Just have not experienced that at all with the few I have driven.

Carlo told the dealer of the problem with the early gas gauges and the revised part, and they have notified me that they have ordered it. They needed a new one just for the burned out light, since BRP doesn't list the (LED?) bulb separately.

[SPYDERGUY1]

last weekend during my first 315km ride WHOOOOO HOOOOO, I actually ran into a new rt/rs owner, sorry not sure which. His concerns were exactly whay you folk are posting. He claims way too much wobble on the highway due to the bags and exteremely decreased cornering on this unit, he was having a bad day so did not want to press the issue. I have yet to take a test blast on the new unit , however will advise my findings in the next couple of weeks.

[SPYDERGUY1]

before you all start, we met at a road side campsite/picnic area, thanks. I stopped first and along came the spyder............

[docdoru]

He claims way too much wobble on the highway due to the bags and exteremely decreased cornering on this unit, he was having a bad day so did not want to press the issue.

With the Corbin saddlebags actually the RS gain stability on the highway at three digits speed.

[ThreeWheels]

Scotty (may I call you that ?)

Did 362 miles last Saturday, two up. I cannot keep up with sportbikes, but that's OK.

After the front end alignment, with 17 psi in the tires, everything ran way OK.

Having shared some of your very same issues, I will tell you categorically, that the handling CAN be fixed. I can't swear that they will, but it IS possible.
There seems to have been a rash of badly aligned vehicles. I just wonder how many of us out there that have said "You need to get used to it" or "It's a different ride" or "You need seat time" or or "Higher Tire Pressure" or those looking to improve the ride with different tires, are actually suffering from poor alignment.

[Vordak]

Going back to the OP, I think a lot of his issues are probably related to poor/defective dealer prep. Seems to be a common issue.

V.

[docdoru]

Going back to the OP, I think a lot of his issues are probably related to poor/defective dealer prep. Seems to be a common issue. V.

welcome