Agree or Disagree

[SpyderGirl]

Based on what I have been hearing with Toyota and what is happening to my mother-in-law's Prius I most certainly think that Toyota's problem is beyond mechanical. My mother-in-law told me the other day that on numerous occassions she'd be sitting in her car in PARK and the car would rev and lurch for no reason at all. Also heard about another car witht he cruise control on that just kept on accelerating. Sounds like software to me!!

[SpyderGirl]

I certainly agree with that. On the other hand, there is a lot of stupid out there anyway, and that stuff probably saves us from it. My vote is to outlaw cruise control. It has led to an epidemic of tailgating and distracted driving on the highway. This isn't the Daytona 500! Oh yeah, and let's ditch power steering, so the idiots can't use their cell phones and park their cars at the same time. (sort of)

Very well said. A lot of the stuff we put on cars does make drivers even stupider becasue they have to do less thinking. ABS,Traction control etc etc

This is all right up there with the cars that park themselves, cars with blind spot indicators, etc, etc. I was driving the other day and some girl in a Jetta was speeding while curling her eyelashes in a residential area! Don't you need your eyes to see while you drive?!?!

[Lamonster]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkEu-PdVlK0[/ame]

[SpyderGirl]

That was a pretty cool vid on the parking assist feature, but I'm sorry, I trust my own eyes before I trust a computer. Besides, if you manage to hit someone while doing this you could just sue the manufacturer and leave the insurance company out of it. Seems like an accident waiting to happen if you ask me. I don't trust those back-up cameras either.

How about those cars that will apply the brakes if it senses you are too close to the car in front of you. What if it just did that randomly and someone slammed into the back of you on the freeway? Or you just assumed you didn't have to pay attention to driving like it seems too many people do nowadays.

I'm sorry, but your car is not your living room, bathroom, office, etc. It's a deadly weapon. if you can't give it your full and undivided attention then don't get behind the wheel.

[Smylinacha]

I'll take the EFI but that's it. Everything else NO COMPUTERS!

Can't tell you how many times my system crashes at work and home and I don't exactly go anywhere online.

[spyryder]

I'll take the EFI but that's it. Everything else NO COMPUTERS!

Can't tell you how many times my system crashes at work and home and I don't exactly go anywhere online.

Your Charger is FULL of electronics.

[woodz428]

Fuel Injection one of the best things that ever came around on bikes
And could deff deal with out all the other stuff

I don't want any of that crap. The best fuel injection I ever worked on was the Bosch CIS..NO electronics to speak of and extremely smooth and tuneable. Have 3 systems on the shelf, worked great on millions of vehicles from Germany,Sweden,Italy,France and probably even the Brits.,although they were about extinct by then.
No matter how much computer crap is on a vehicle it can never compensate for the nut behind the wheel. Especially if that vehicle just ran a red light. It was illustrated in the last couple years in, C&D or R&T, that good driving, standard no inertia shoulder belts are far superior in every condition than ABS,BS or ASS. For those that feel safer with it, good for you, but I DO NOT WANT it forced down my throat. One reason I don't buy any new crap. When I have the option to DELETE anything I don't want, I'll consider it. I personally believe that all this reliance on technology is a breeding ground for more and more stupid/unsafe drivers. It also gives them an excuse, my ABS didn't work right, my gas pedal got stuck, falls right into the victim mentality. Not my fault, it was the CAR/TRUCK/ whatever. The new version of "I didn't see them".

[jwfranklin]

Your Charger is FULL of electronics.

All our cars and trucks are full of electronics. And it scares me that even the factory trained techs and factory engineers can't fix them. In 2001 I bought a new Mustang Convertible, which I only drove on pretty days. At about 6 months of ownership and less than 1K miles a check engine light came on, took it in to the dealer, was told they could find nothing wrong and the reset the light, about 3 miles later it came back on again. this happened about 3 more times, when they finally decided to keep it a day, got it back drove about 3 miles and it came on again. then they kept it almost a week same results. Then they gave me a loaner and kept it over a month, supposed to have checked everything. thought they found a problem in the FI. left and you guessed it drove about 3 miles and the light came on again. They had an engineer from Ford come out, and they kept it about another week. They still couldn't find anything wrong, and took a hail mary approach and replaced all the computers and almost everything else. Then the light stayed off. On my paperwork which was 9 pages, it said that neither the tech or engineer could explain what particulary fixed the light. My thought was what if the car was out out of warranty. I was told they bill was over $9K to fix it. I sold it before it ran out of warranty, and never had any other problems.

[Firefly]

I never thought of the possibility of the gas pedal getting stuck...and frankly I wouldn't have known to put the car in neutral...after messing around a bit with the gears or if I was clear headed enough, sure I might have gotten there, but maybe by then it would be too late. So, I do NOT find it funny at all that the pedals stuck and people got hurt, and just because some people know a lot about cars and what to do "if" doesn't mean that the general population does, nor does it mean that those that don't know are "stupid." People died, and they were NOT stupid, if anything they believed they were in a safe vehicle and weren't prepared for the "what if's."

I guess I should clarify what I meant. I certainly did NOT mean it was 'ha ha funny' pertaining to the gas pedals sticking --- I meant 'funny' as in 'odd' or 'strange'. I certainly don't mean any disrespect to those that died, but I must also wonder how someone could allow their car to get up to 125 mph without killing the engine or dropping into neutral.

Toyota claims it was mechanical - and I could easily see the wrong floor mat curling up and causing problems. Considering they have had around 400 reports of 'sticking pedals' out of 9 million or so cars they have recalled, I would still consider them to be very safe cars.

I currently have a gas pedal on one of my cars that sticks a bit here and there---- and WD-40 every 6 months or so seems to take care of it.

Comparing vehicle computer systems to desktop computers is really comparing apples to oranges. Technology isn't evil, but it also shouldn't be a replacement for good old common sense.

[bjt]

Well, almost all the problems with my Spyder have been mechanical issues but i still wouldn't mind them simplifying the computer / electronic systems on the Spyder. Some of those systems are good but some of them seem to cause more problems that are hard to diagnose. Getting rid of the power assist steering would not be a big deal IMO and that would really simplify their diagnosing the steering issues.

[SpyderGirl]

I personally believe that all this reliance on technology is a breeding ground for more and more stupid/unsafe drivers. It also gives them an excuse, my ABS didn't work right, my gas pedal got stuck, falls right into the victim mentality. Not my fault, it was the CAR/TRUCK/ whatever. The new version of "I didn't see them".

HERE HERE!!! My thought EXACTLY.

[bikeguy]

I'm not really a gearhead, I just never could afford having someone else be my mechanic. Electronic Ignition and Electronic Fuel Injection is the best thing that has happened to engines since paper air filters were developed IMO. With the possible exception of the Spyder's VSS, I could personally do without all the rest of the electronic stuff. And I say POSSIBLE exception of the VSS because I haven't yet owned or ridden a Spyder enough to form an opinion. Like most of us who have ridden bikes and driven cars/pickups/whatever for many, many years, I have had any number of incidents happen that could have resulted in bad accidents or death.

If you've been around awhile, you remember that blowouts used to be fairly common. Thank goodness, they aren't any more. Stuck throttles weren't unusual, either. I don't think I know a long time rider who can't tell you at least one story about a stuck throttle. I owned a pretty fast 1959 Chevrolet when I was younger. I threw the tread rubber off so many tires that it was little more than an annoyance. I guess we were fortunate that we learned to deal with unexpected occurences when speeds were maybe a little slower than they are now and traffic was a whole lot lighter.

I like ABS brakes but I can do without them. Never had any form of traction control but I think I can do without that, also. But I want to keep Electronic Ignition and EFI.

Cotton

[Lamonster]

Well, almost all the problems with my Spyder have been mechanical issues but i still wouldn't mind them simplifying the computer / electronic systems on the Spyder. Some of those systems are good but some of them seem to cause more problems that are hard to diagnose. Getting rid of the power assist steering would not be a big deal IMO and that would really simplify their diagnosing the steering issues.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmUr0nZzIxE[/ame]

[Neez]

Good hammer work can also resolve electronic issues. Seems to me I recall a GPS adjustment video a while back........

[Mo Lee]

Perhaps I should clear up my thoughts. I agree with Lamont and several others, EFI, electronic ignition, and possibly ABS are keepers. That is why I said roll back 20 or so years, in 1985 I bought a new Dodge Shelby Charger that was fuel injected and turbocharged and it was as much fun as the Spyder. The main reason for purchase was I was being transfered to Germany and I wanted to keep up, on the Autobahn.
My concern is with electronic systems that need variable current flow and not simply on and off conditions, too many things can effect that flow. I also disagree with stability systems that take over drivers controls, even though there may be a half a dozen sensors providing data to the CPU it still does not have enough info, at least not what the driver/rider is seeing and feeling.
I find it interesting that I made the same post on a Valkyrie forum where the Bike of choice is much simpler without all the electronics and don't even have EFI, and most of them disagree with me however on this site where the bike of choice is full of electronics it seems the trend is toward agreement.

[NancysToy]

Perhaps I should clear up my thoughts. I agree with Lamont and several others, EFI, electronic ignition, and possibly ABS are keepers. That is why I said roll back 20 or so years, in 1985 I bought a new Dodge Shelby Charger that was fuel injected and turbocharged and it was as much fun as the Spyder. The main reason for purchase was I was being transfered to Germany and I wanted to keep up, on the Autobahn.
My concern is with electronic systems that need variable current flow and not simply on and off conditions, too many things can effect that flow. I also disagree with stability systems that take over drivers controls, even though there may be a half a dozen sensors providing data to the CPU it still does not have enough info, at least not what the driver/rider is seeing and feeling.
I find it interesting that I made the same post on a Valkyrie forum where the Bike of choice is much simpler without all the electronics and don't even have EFI, and most of them disagree with me however on this site where the bike of choice is full of electronics it seems the trend is toward agreement.

I did not worry about the technology when I learned to drive in a Ford Model A. I did not worry when we poured a load of 90% nitro into blown hemi sitting five feet in front of my face and went racing. I did not worry when I had a 1991 Dodge Colt with electronic fuel injection and an engine management system. I did not worry when we bought a Chevy HHR with electronic power steering and more computer than I have sitting on my desk. I do not worry now. There are times when I cuss more, though.

I tend to agree that things have gone too far, and certainly that there are far more things to go wrong now. For the most part I agree about vehicle stability systems (we have no SUV to be concerned about). I would not want my wife riding a Spyder without one, though. It may be far more stable than a standard trike, it may behave very well at lower speeds, but it has the ability to get her in over her head, strictly due to the design. Her choice was between the Spyder, a Hannigan conversion, and a sidecar rig, and we chose the Spyder because of the stability system, not in spite of it. I would worry myself sick if she had a sidecar or trike.

[woodz428]

I do not worry now.
I would worry myself sick if she had a sidecar or trike.

I don't worry either, maybe why my physical at 50 looked like the one at 27. Worry and dislike don't go hand in hand. I DO NOT like any mandate...manufacturer,govt. NONE. I should have the option to purchase something that does not have stuff I DON'T WANT. I should not be required to subsidize those that find it more "comforting". Why should I. Why should I pay for stuff I intend to remove, just because spreading the cost makes it cheaper for those feel safer? The Soviet Union didn't collapse, it picked up tents and moved here.
I have owned/ridden Trikes ( the old 45s) and hacks,and the machine let's you know the limits. I think it's easier to "get over your head" when you have a false sense of security...because of some techno crap.
I prefer people that can't operate equipment, not to. We have moved from vehicles being a piece of transportation to an extension of the living room. How long before DVD players become standard on bikes??
For every intended "safety" addition there is no noticeable drop in accidents. They way some people feel, you'd think we drive bumper cars.
The object, at least for me, is to get from point A to point B without some bozo making it "messy".
For those that love to be baby sat, we are heading down the path that will give you "comfort". For those that prefer to be your own master, I'll be offering a system removal within the next year. Looking at the shop manual it will likely be cheaper than an extended warranty. It will be like a REAL motorcycle, where you control the front and rear brakes separate and can crash if you are so declined.

[Way2Fast]

What concerns me the most about all the electronis gismos and computers that are appearing on the newer vehicles is what will probably happen as the vehicle ages. There are problems with many that are brand new. When the effects of the outdoor elements start to add up, how dependable will these computers be? They were designed to aid the driver and make up for poor operator control and stupidity but only do so when working properly. When the effects of corrosion, salt spray, constant temperature changes, age, etc come into play will they still do what they were designed to do? Maybe they will go haywire and add to the road dangers.

IMO, Fuel injection and electronic ignition are the only beneficial devices because they do what they were intended to do and if they suffer a breakdown they will not put the vehicle occupants at risk.

ABS is something that has been forced down our throats and taken for granted.. Try and find a car that doesn't have it these days. In many situations it can prevent skidding and loss of control, yet under certain conditions it will increase the chance of an accident. It's a proven fact that in dry conditions at slower speeds, nothing will stop a car quicker than locked wheels. In cases like this, ABS will prevent wheel lockup and greatly increase the distance needed to stop.

While vehicle computer's might cause issues, they probably pale by comparison to the dangers caused by "personal" electronic devices like cel phones, GPS devices, DVD players, and everything else drivers fiddle with while operating a motor vehicle. I wonder how long it will take before someone invents a device that will allow attaching Apples new i-pad to the steering wheel so that it will be easily accessable to the driver !!

These days the safest place to be is sitting at a desk behind a computer !!!LOL

[woodz428]

I wonder how long it will take before someone invents a device that will allow attaching Apples new i-pad to the steering wheel so that it will be easily accessable to the driver !!

These days the safest place to be is sitting at a desk behind a computer !!!LOL

Of course stupidity needs no push from electronics. In the 90s I used to work about 55 miles away during the Winter months. Always took the same Interstate.. and EVERY day, I would see the same State employee, driving a State( you and me) owned vehicle.....reading the newspaper while driving at interstate speeds. He is one of those that will fill the void in his skull with added electronic distractions. We as the employers of this pinhead pay for the car and the insurance that will be needed when he rearends soneone or worse.
In the city I moved from about 10 years ago, every single Police car was in the body shop at the same time. In the last few years several city employees, driving city cars with taxpayer supplied insurance, were caught DWI. Didn't lose their jobs or our car.
It seems that the separation of those that pay and those that PLAY, with the $$ of those that pay, is growing wider. Stupidity in every possible place, because it is rewarded.
I'm no Luddite, but technology for technologies sake is insane.

[Firefly]

Well-- for those that think they want a Spyder without the VSS - you can temporarily move the sensors and take a spin. I can tell you that without such a system - BRP would never be able to sell these on the market as there would be people crashing left and right. The Spyder will get downright squirrely without the VSS. On the Power Steering - I've ridden with and without and can tell you it's a MUCH nicer ride with it.

As far as ABS - I don't think most people understand the true genius behind ABS. The true benefit of ABS is that you can still steer while applying the brakes - something you cannot do with standard brakes fully applied. Here in Michigan we all learned to 'pump' the brakes to maintain control in skids and wet or icy conditions. The ABS simply takes care of this for us.

The technology in cars has reduced fatal accidents greatly. Crush zones, airbags, snap-away steering columns, shoulder harnesses, etc. are all examples of these technologies. No manufacturer in their right mind will sell cars without such features due to the litigious nature of the world we now live in. Just look at the anger and outrage over something as simple as a sticking gas pedal. 30 years ago this wouldn't have been something people got all bent out of shape over - of course back then people were more hands-on with their cars and I think would have been more aware of how their car really works--- thus popping into neutral would be perfectly natural.

I do agree the government can go too far in protecting us from ourselves. While I wear my seatbelt all the time - I think it should be my choice once I'm an adult. Ditto with helmets - no doubt wearing them is safer - but I sure would like the choice.

But on the other end I would support making texting, watching TV, surfing, etc. illegal while driving as those actions can affect others on the road. People don't pay enough attention to driving as it is without these extra distractions.

[Smylinacha]

Yeah I know - I miss my Wrangler I had before that.

My Charger goes fast and I love it for that but I am not a fan of computers in everything.

Your Charger is FULL of electronics.

[Smylinacha]

I do agree the government can go too far in protecting us from ourselves.

But on the other end I would support making texting, watching TV, surfing, etc. illegal while driving as those actions can affect others on the road. People don't pay enough attention to driving as it is without these extra distractions.

[woodz428]

Well

I do agree the government can go too far in protecting us from ourselves. While I wear my seatbelt all the time - I think it should be my choice once I'm an adult. Ditto with helmets - no doubt wearing them is safer - but I sure would like the choice.

But on the other end I would support making texting, watching TV, surfing, etc. illegal while driving as those actions can affect others on the road. People don't pay enough attention to driving as it is without these extra distractions.

I completely agree with the first paragraph, but think that the second is a redundancy. There is a law regarding reckless driving, those would all fall into that IF they contribute to an incident. Making them illegal is just a fund raiser for the government and has little to do with safety. If it did those morons wouldn't get driver's license in the first place. IF they should kill someone because of it, that falls into manslaughter or again reckless homicide. If the govt. wants to make things safer they would actually make a drivers test mean something. As it is, it's just a "buy a car/truck/whatever" permit. Helps the manufacturers at the publics expense.

[NancysToy]

I completely agree with the first paragraph, but think that the second is a redundancy. There is a law regarding reckless driving, those would all fall into that IF they contribute to an incident. Making them illegal is just a fund raiser for the government and has little to do with safety. If it did those morons wouldn't get driver's license in the first place. IF they should kill someone because of it, that falls into manslaughter or again reckless homicide. If the govt. wants to make things safer they would actually make a drivers test mean something. As it is, it's just a "buy a car/truck/whatever" permit. Helps the manufacturers at the publics expense.

I don't subscribe to your philosophy in its entirety, but this paragraph did remind me of something. Someone (whom I've long forgotten) once said that almost all the laws necessary to protect people and property were made at least a hundred years ago, and everything since was merely justification to keep electing new legislators. Politics is a perpetual employment machine, it's sad to say.

[QuadManiac]

but I must also wonder how someone could allow their car to get up to 125 mph without killing the engine or dropping into neutral.

I wondered this, originally, when I first heard the story... facts that came out of it don't answer all of the questions - but, he was a long time CHP officer, in a rental Lexus with 3 additional family memebers in the car... no training or experience with the vehicle. It was a new one with the ON button instead of an ignition key, and I now learn that one had to push and hold it for more than 3 seconds to turn the engine off. I can understand how, especially with no training in the operation, and in the heat of the moment, this could cause problems trying to kill the engine in a panic situation. It was one of the family members, not the driver, that was on the cell phone with 911 operators towards the end of the ordeal.

I don't know why he couldn't put the car in neutral (I would certainly expect someone with his CHP experience to have tried), but let me ask all of us SE5 owners out there - how would WE put our Spyder in neutral in a panic situation? Answer? - WE CAN'T. We can't pull in the clutch... and we must downshift through first to get to neutral, AND the computer won't let us downshift if it will over-rev the engine (which IS, btw, my biggest complaint about the SE5 - I'd like a way to go straight to neutral). I posit the Lexus in question may have had electronic paddle shifters and would not allow downshifting to get into neutral at that speed? Of course, we have the kill switch... The Lexus didn't have that luxury. Perhaps it should?

This was in my town, so there was a lot of coverage. My heart goes out to those that he and his 3 family members left behind.