From what I understand, what you call the "return" line is connected to a valve to bleed the gauge's oil line. Per my maintenance manual, the test is to read the pressure while the clutch is activating. If you test with air in the line, the reaction time of the gauge is slowed, as the air in the line takes a bit of time to compress. Since you're looking for a quick change in pressure while the clutch is activating, with air in the line you may not see it.
Thanks. That's a little pricey. Do you think I need to use that particular gauge?
I think you need to use one that will bleed the line. Maybe you can find another. I would start with verifying that the solenoids are working before moving on to suspect low oil pressure.
you could possibly loosen the hose fitting at the gauge to bleed oil into the hose, then tighten it up to do the test. Might be a little messy, but it might work.
I think you need to use one that will bleed the line. Maybe you can find another. I would start with verifying that the solenoids are working before moving on to suspect low oil pressure.
I'll buy the right gauge if I think I still need it. I can't test the solenoids the way the shop manual says without BUDs. I checked the contact circuit but I didn't disconnect the TCM connector from the TCM. I'll have to redo that test tomorrow. I checked the power circuit. The voltage between the individual pins 1 through 4 and ground was 12 volts. The voltage between the individual pins 5 through 8 was 0 volts. That was with the ignition on. It says upshift, downshift, clutch and clutch modulation but it doesn't say anything about manipulating the paddle shifter. I didn't. Other than that I rechecked the oil after I ran the engine for 10 minutes. I revved it up a couple times for good measure. I shut it off and checked it immediately. It was right on the full mark. I disconnect the shifting shaft and put it in first gear. I reconnected the shaft. I restarted it with my foot on the brake. It fired right up and shifted into neutral. I repeated that in reverse. It started but it stayed in reverse.
I'll buy the right gauge if I think I still need it. I can't test the solenoids the way the shop manual says without BUDs. I checked the contact circuit but I didn't disconnect the TCM connector from the TCM. I'll have to redo that test tomorrow. I checked the power circuit. The voltage between the individual pins 1 through 4 and ground was 12 volts. The voltage between the individual pins 5 through 8 was 0 volts. That was with the ignition on. It says upshift, downshift, clutch and clutch modulation but it doesn't say anything about manipulating the paddle shifter. I didn't. Other than that I rechecked the oil after I ran the engine for 10 minutes. I revved it up a couple times for good measure. I shut it off and checked it immediately. It was right on the full mark. I disconnect the shifting shaft and put it in first gear. I reconnected the shaft. I restarted it with my foot on the brake. It fired right up and shifted into neutral. I repeated that in reverse. It started but it stayed in reverse.
So oil pressure is likely fine. Your test results puts the forward shift solenoid in question, or some electrical problem with the forward shift solenoid. I would try to test for voltage to that solenoid when it should be activating.
So oil pressure is likely fine. Your test results puts the forward shift solenoid in question, or some electrical problem with the forward shift solenoid. I would try to test for voltage to that solenoid when it should be activating.
So oil pressure is likely fine. Your test results puts the forward shift solenoid in question, or some electrical problem with the forward shift solenoid. I would try to test for voltage to that solenoid when it should be activating.
I tested the voltages from the TCM to the connector to the solenoids. They were what they were supposed to be. But the solenoid are activated by a pulse from the TCM as opposed to a voltage. The shop manual explains exactly how the HCM works. I have one downloaded but I can't figure out how to display the pages here. I have the images saved as screenshots but when you click on insert images here it asks for URLs.
I tested the voltages from the TCM to the connector to the solenoids. They were what they were supposed to be. But the solenoid are activated by a pulse from the TCM as opposed to a voltage. The shop manual explains exactly how the HCM works. I have one downloaded but I can't figure out how to display the pages here. I have the images saved as screenshots but when you click on insert images here it asks for URLs.
Don't 'Insert Images' - your best bet to show pics/images in your posts on the Forum is to save them as jpegs or jpgs & then instead of using 'Quick Reply' to post, either select 'Go Advanced' or go straight to the '+ Reply to Thread' button, then scroll right down past the text area (but do eventually add some text please!) to use the Manage Attachments options. You can add or upload to the Forum direct from your computer/phone/posting device; insert the image address; or add a URL. Look for the button down below the text field past 'Additional Options' and in the 'Attachments' section of that block - there's a list of acceptable file types & their maximum sizes there too!
Please PM me if you have any issues getting it done, I should be around on & off for the next 12-14 hours or so, so if I don't respond straight away, just give me 20-30 mins!
Last edited by Peter Aawen; 03-28-2024 at 07:03 PM.
I tested the voltages from the TCM to the connector to the solenoids. They were what they were supposed to be. But the solenoid are activated by a pulse from the TCM as opposed to a voltage. The shop manual explains exactly how the HCM works. I have one downloaded but I can't figure out how to display the pages here. I have the images saved as screenshots but when you click on insert images here it asks for URLs.
The solenoids are activated by current. For the forward shift solenoid, battery voltage is present at Pin 1. Pin 8 is open. To activate the solenoid, the TCM connects Pin 8 to ground to complete the circuit. If you connect a test light to Pins 1 and 8, you should see a flash of light when the solenoid is to be activated.
The solenoids are activated by current. For the forward shift solenoid, battery voltage is present at Pin 1. Pin 8 is open. To activate the solenoid, the TCM connects Pin 8 to ground to complete the circuit. If you connect a test light to Pins 1 and 8, you should see a flash of light when the solenoid is to be activated.
Did you test solenoid resistance?
I tested the solenoid resistance but I did it wrong. I'll re do it asap. I've been waiting for the new oil filter I ordered. It was supposed to be here Tuesday. I got it yesterday, Friday. Ticker's been acting up so I haven't been in a big hurry to mess with the bike lately. I plan on working on it tomorrow.
The solenoids are activated by current. For the forward shift solenoid, battery voltage is present at Pin 1. Pin 8 is open. To activate the solenoid, the TCM connects Pin 8 to ground to complete the circuit. If you connect a test light to Pins 1 and 8, you should see a flash of light when the solenoid is to be activated.
Did you test solenoid resistance?
Worked on the bike for a few hours this morning. Drained the oil and replaced the engine filter. I already replaced the HCM filter a week or so ago so I just drained the oil that was in the filter out and reinstalled it. I took the oil pressure regulator out while I had the oil drained. It looked fine so I reinstalled it. Checked the voltage to the solenoids. With the ignition on it reads 12 volts between pin 1 through 4 and ground. 0 volts between pins 5 through 8 and ground. Between pin 1 and 8 I read 12 volts. 2 and 7 12 volts. 3 and 6 12 volts. 4 and 5 12 volts. But when I check them with the tester it doesn't light. I tried manipulation the paddle shift. Upshift downshift nothing. Light never came on Between any of the pins 1 through 4 and ground the light comes on with ignition on. I couldn't start the bike because I had no oil. I'll pick some up tomorrow and try it with the engine running. Still have to redo the solenoid resistance test.
As per my earlier post, there is an electronic switch (probably a MOSFET) in the TCM that makes a ground connection to activate the solenoid. Because this electronic switch has a high impedance path to ground when it is off, you are going to see 12V with a meter connected to Pins 1 and 8 as you did. But it is too high of an impedance to activate the solenoid or a test light. (The multimeter draws very little current. The solenoids and test light draw a lot more to activate.) Your tests with the test light suggest that the solenoids are not being activated, which suggests a problem with the paddle shift switch or the TCM and not the solenoids. The solenoid resistance test will help confirm this.
As per my earlier post, there is an electronic switch (probably a MOSFET) in the TCM that makes a ground connection to activate the solenoid. Because this electronic switch has a high impedance path to ground when it is off, you are going to see 12V with a meter connected to Pins 1 and 8 as you did. But it is too high of an impedance to activate the solenoid or a test light. (The multimeter draws very little current. The solenoids and test light draw a lot more to activate.) Your tests with the test light suggest that the solenoids are not being activated, which suggests a problem with the paddle shift switch or the TCM and not the solenoids. The solenoid resistance test will help confirm this.
I picked up some oil on the way home from the dentist. I'm going to try it today with the engine running. The test light isn't coming on when I pull back on the paddle and push in on the reverse button but the bike will shift into reverse from neutral when it's running.
Last edited by Cadaverdog; 04-02-2024 at 09:58 PM.
As per my earlier post, there is an electronic switch (probably a MOSFET) in the TCM that makes a ground connection to activate the solenoid. Because this electronic switch has a high impedance path to ground when it is off, you are going to see 12V with a meter connected to Pins 1 and 8 as you did. But it is too high of an impedance to activate the solenoid or a test light. (The multimeter draws very little current. The solenoids and test light draw a lot more to activate.) Your tests with the test light suggest that the solenoids are not being activated, which suggests a problem with the paddle shift switch or the TCM and not the solenoids. The solenoid resistance test will help confirm this.
I redid the test you recommended with the motor running. The test light came on and stayed on for a couple seconds when I did the solenoid resistance test. The resistance between 1 and 8, 2 and 7, and 3 and 6 was 3.8 ohms. 4 and 5 it was 1.9 ohms. Slightly higher than what the book said, but I wasn't using a high dollar Ohmmeter I could zero. Not sure what I should do next. I might remove the solenoids and see if they're working as they should. If they are, I suspect the problem is the HCM. But the fact it will shift from neutral to reverse using the paddle and forward (1st gear) to neutral with my foot on the brake as soon as it starts confuses me. Maybe I should try swapping the upshift solenoid with the downshift solenoid and vice versa to see what happens?
Last edited by Peter Aawen; 04-05-2024 at 03:47 AM.
I redid the test you recommended with the motor running. The test light came on and stayed on for a couple seconds when I did the solenoid resistance test.
I'm a bit confused by this, as the test light is not used for the resistance test. Disconnect the solenoids connector, run the engine, put your test light on pins 8 and 1 at the solenoid connector that runs to the TCM, not the connector that runs to the solenoids. I would expect to see the test light flash when you push the upshift paddle.
I'm a bit confused by this, as the test light is not used for the resistance test. Disconnect the solenoids at the TCM, run the engine, put your test light on pins 8 and 1 at the TCM connector, not the connector to the solenoid. I would expect to see the test light flash when you push the upshift paddle.
I forgot to proofread before I posted. I screwed the second part up pretty good. I redid the test you recommended with the motor running The test light came on and stayed on for a couple seconds. (I tested all 4 solenoids separately).
I'm going to call you tomorrow. I think we're having a miscommunication problem. I'm disconnecting the 8 pin connector and testing between the pins on the female end. The output from the TCM. The same place the user manual says to do the power circuit test from. It even has a photo showing where to test it. If I disconnect the TCM connector the TCM is no longer in the circuit.
Yes, I screwed up when I said "TCM connector". When you disconnect the solenoid connector, you make the resistance test using the connector end that runs to the solenoids. When you make the test light test, you use the solenoid connector end that runs to the TCM. You do not disconnect the TCM connector. Apologies for the confusion. I will edit my earlier post.
Yes, I screwed up when I said "TCM connector". When you disconnect the solenoid connector, you make the resistance test using the connector end that runs to the solenoids. When you make the test light test, you use the solenoid connector end that runs to the TCM. You do not disconnect the TCM connector. Apologies for the confusion. I will edit my earlier post.
The shop manual I bought is confusing too. It tells you to unplug the TCM connector and the 8 pin connector to test solenoid resistance. If you disconnect the 8 pin connector and test the end to the solenoids it shouldn't matter if the TCM connector is plugged in our not. I checked it the correct way. The light lights up momentarily except for 3 and 6. The clutch circuit. It might not have lit up the first time I checked it. The bike was idling. The centrifigul clutch doesn't lock up when it's idling. Maybe the bike knows that. I need to find out which pins are which on the TCM connector so I can check continuity between it and the 8 pin connector. The one you're calling the solenoid connecter. I switch the upshift and downshift solenoids. I changed them in the Duetch Connector as well. But it still shifts into reverse but not into gear. I might mess with it again today after I ran some errands.
Tested everything I could test with a multi meter and a test light. Found nothing wrong. Since it will shift into reverse using the paddle shifter, and shift from 1st gear to neutral using the paddle shift, but it won't shift from reverse to neutral or neutral to 1st gear the problem must be the upshift solenoid or the HCM itself. I switched the upshift and downshift solenoids. No change. I ran an oil pressure test on the HCM. It measured 270 psi downshifting. 170 psi when I attempt to upshift. BTW: I used a Maddox transmission oil pressure tester I purchased for $40 at Harbor Freight. The one the shop manual recommended was $180.
Last edited by Peter Aawen; 04-13-2024 at 08:53 PM.
Reason: Moved Post title - they mess with Searching! ;-)
Tested everything I could test with a multi meter and a test light. Found nothing wrong. Since it will shift into reverse using the paddle shifter, and shift from 1st gear to neutral using the paddle shift, but it won't shift from reverse to neutral or neutral to 1st gear the problem must be the upshift solenoid or the HCM itself. I switched the upshift and downshift solenoids. No change. I ran an oil pressure test on the HCM. It measured 270 psi downshifting. 170 psi when I attempt to upshift. BTW: I used a Maddox transmission oil pressure tester I purchased for $40 at Harbor Freight. The one the shop manual recommended was $180.
If my memory serves me my 14 RT won't shift from REVERSE to NEUTRAL either .... But it shifts fine frome Neutral to first gear ..... good luck ...Mike
This may help a little, or probably more likely, may not be worth a fig ( ) but have you seen DickB's originating post in the thread I've linked below?? Particularly the image it contains, which comes from the glovebox manual & refers to shifting...
Like I said above - it might help, more likely not but it's probably better to know about this & maybe consider any ramifications it might have, rather than continuing to struggle with searching for a helpful diagnosis, unaware that your problem juuust might be related to something as simple as the speed/duration of your flick on the flappy paddle/gear selector...
If my memory serves me my 14 RT won't shift from REVERSE to NEUTRAL either .... But it shifts fine frome Neutral to first gear ..... good luck ...Mike
That doesn't make sense. Reverse to neutral utilizes the same solenoid neutral to first uses. The upshift solenoid.
Originally Posted by Peter Aawen
This may help a little, or probably more likely, may not be worth a fig ( ) but have you seen DickB's originating post in the thread I've linked below?? Particularly the image it contains, which comes from the glovebox manual & refers to shifting...
Like I said above - it might help, more likely not but it's probably better to know about this & maybe consider any ramifications it might have, rather than continuing to struggle with searching for a helpful diagnosis, unaware that your problem juuust might be related to something as simple as the speed/duration of your flick on the flappy paddle/gear selector...
My bike will downshift from 1st to neutral. It will downshift from neutral to reverse. But it doesn't upshift from reverse to neutral or neutral to first. It doesn't matter how long I hold the shifter forward.
Last edited by Peter Aawen; 04-14-2024 at 08:01 PM.
....
My bike will downshift from 1st to neutral. It will downshift from neutral to reverse. But it doesn't upshift from reverse to neutral or neutral to first. It doesn't matter how long I hold the shifter forward.
Like I said above - it might help, more likely not, but it's probably better to know about this & maybe consider any ramifications it might have, rather than continuing to struggle with searching for a helpful diagnosis, unaware that your problem juuust might be related to something as simple as the speed/duration of your flick on the flappy paddle/gear selector...
So what happens if you DON'Thold the shifter forward for long at all, but instead only flick it forward for less than 1/3rd of a second, as mentioned in that linked thread?
Last edited by Peter Aawen; 04-14-2024 at 10:25 PM.
Like I said above - it might help, more likely not, but it's probably better to know about this & maybe consider any ramifications it might have, rather than continuing to struggle with searching for a helpful diagnosis, unaware that your problem juuust might be related to something as simple as the speed/duration of your flick on the flappy paddle/gear selector...
So what happens if you DON'Thold the shifter forward for long at all, but instead only flick it forward for less than 1/3rd of a second, as mentioned in that linked thread?
I just tap it. ... not push and hold it in .... While Drag racing the Spyder, I'm at full throttle and watching the revs. ... this has worked fine for me ....Mike
Last edited by Peter Aawen; 04-14-2024 at 10:26 PM.
Reason: Fixed quote display ;-)
So what happens if you DON'Thold the shifter forward for long at all, but instead only flick it forward for less than 1/3rd of a second, as mentioned in that linked thread?
I'll try it but during the electrical test the solenoid was getting the pulse to activate when I pushed the shifter like I normally do. I don't hold it forward when I'm riding it. I tried holding it a little longer to see if it would shift if I did while I was testing it.
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Originally Posted by DickB
) but have you seen DickB's originating post in the thread I've linked below?? Particularly the image it contains, which comes from the glovebox manual & refers to shifting... 
but it's probably better to know about this & maybe consider any ramifications it might have, rather than continuing to struggle with searching for a helpful diagnosis, unaware that your problem juuust might be related to something as simple as the speed/duration of your flick on the flappy paddle/gear selector... 
I just tap it. ... not push and hold it in .... While Drag racing the Spyder, I'm at full throttle and watching the revs. ... this has worked fine for me ....Mike 
