2011 RS SE5 Won't start/shift to Neutral - anyone have shifter wiring schematics?

[Cadaverdog]

I went to fire my bike up the other day, and it wouldn't start. I noticed the neutral light was not on and assumed I might have shut it off last time I rode it without shifting into neutral. I turned the ignition off and pulled back on the paddle assuming it was in gear. Nothing happened. I tried manually shifting it into neutral by rotating the gear shift lever below the front sprocket with a 13mm wrench, but it wouldn't budge. I disconnected the gear shifting rod from the shifting lever and shifted it into neutral no problem. Bike fired right up. I warmed it up, shut it off, and checked the oil. It was full. I tried shifting it with the rod disconnected but it barely moved when I tried to shift into reverse. Nothing when I tried to put it in gear. I checked the fuses in the frunk. They were all good. The digital display doesn't display on my bike, but I assumed it would have an error code if it did. I tried to shift it into neutral again using a 13mm wrench, but once again it wouldn't budge. If I was to get it refired and into gear, would it hurt it to upshift it manually with the shift shaft disconnected? If I can't figure out why the electric shift no longer works. Any thoughts on the subject?

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I went to fire my bike up the other day, and it wouldn't start. I noticed the neutral light was not on and assumed I might have shut it off last time I rode it without shifting into neutral. I turned the ignition off and pulled back on the paddle assuming it was in gear. Nothing happened. I tried manually shifting it into neutral by rotating the gear shift lever below the front sprocket with a 13mm wrench, but it wouldn't budge. I disconnected the shifting rod from the lever, replaced the lever, and shifted it into neutral no problem. Bike fired right up. I warmed it up, shut it off, and checked the oil. It was full. I tried shifting it with the rod disconnected but it barely moved when I tried to shift into reverse. Nothing when I tried to put it in gear. I checked the fuses in the frunk. They were all good. I reconnected the shaft, raised the back wheel, and shifted it into reverse manually with the motor running. It worked as it should but then it shut off and the emergency flashers came on. The digital display doesn't display on my bike, but I assumed it would have an error code if it did. I tried to shift it into neutral again using a 13mm wrench, but once again it wouldn't budge. If I was to get it refired and into gear, would it hurt it to upshift it manually with the shift shaft disconnected? If I can't figure out why the electric shift no longer works, I'm thing about rigging a jockey shift up. Any thoughts on the subject?

I have experienced this also ..... After I bought my New 2014 RT in Ill, I had to drive it home to Vermont. I stopped for some food, and it wouldn't start (it wasn't in neutral ) .... A kind fellow stopped and asked my problem, he said he had jumper cables and we hooked them to the Spyder ..... His vehicle was off, and as soon as I turned the key mine fired right up. After this I ALWAYS made sure it was in neutral before I shut it off. Over a few years I noticed my Spyder always took longer to Start than my girlfriends 2014 RT. What I believed to be the cause was the selling dealer didn't do the initial charge properly and my battery was weak because of this... I believe that if you have a weak battery, it may not start if left in gear ... I have told this story here before and was told "This could not cause the No start issue" ..... So try this, first make sure the battery terminals are tight (they should have STAR washers on them), then use jumper cables to a car battery (in a car that's off) Foot on the brake, and see if it starts. .... If it does, have the battery "load tested" at a parts store. ... let us know how you make out .... Mike

[Bfromla]

Understanding is the SE defaults to N at start up. You were able to move manually helps but Sorry does not rule out splines being stripped on shift arm. Going into gear without proper input or RPM & addition of front tires not moving likely cause for shut off & flashers. (Yes, probably a code hidden somewhere & an E on the dash in the gear position). A good, fully charged battery with clean tight connections is always helpful. When was last oil & filters change? Maybe you want to consider acquiring a spare shift arm, just-in-case. Unfortunately, I'm on my 3rd arm with just lazy casual ryding. Yours might just need a lil' inspection & tightening That arm/spline is soft metal & will strip all to easily. Good Luck.

[Cadaverdog]

Understanding is the SE defaults to N at start up. You were able to move manually helps but Sorry does not rule out splines being stripped on shift arm. Going into gear without proper input or RPM & addition of front tires not moving likely cause for shut off & flashers. (Yes, probably a code hidden somewhere & an E on the dash in the gear position). A good, fully charged battery with clean tight connections is always helpful. When was last oil & filters change? Maybe you want to consider acquiring a spare shift arm, just-in-case. Unfortunately, I'm on my 3rd arm with just lazy casual ryding. Yours might just need a lil' inspection & tightening That arm/spline is soft metal & will strip all to easily. Good Luck.

I checked the splines. They're fine. Probably been less than 1000 since the last oil and filter change. Oil still looks clean and clear. I'm pretty sure the hydraulic shifting happening on the motor or the paddle shifter itself is the problem. Could be one of the rear fuses. I haven't checked them yet.

[Cadaverdog]

Understanding is the SE defaults to N at start up. You were able to move manually helps but Sorry does not rule out splines being stripped on shift arm. Going into gear without proper input or RPM & addition of front tires not moving likely cause for shut off & flashers. (Yes, probably a code hidden somewhere & an E on the dash in the gear position). A good, fully charged battery with clean tight connections is always helpful. When was last oil & filters change? Maybe you want to consider acquiring a spare shift arm, just-in-case. Unfortunately, I'm on my 3rd arm with just lazy casual ryding. Yours might just need a lil' inspection & tightening That arm/spline is soft metal & will strip all to easily. Good Luck.

Several people have told me this. But the HCM uses oil pressure to shift the transmission. What it might do is shift into neutral after it starts. Today I shut the engine off while it was in reverse on purpose. It started but it didn't shift into neutral. It stayed in reverse.

[DickB]

Several people have told me this. But the HCM uses oil pressure to shift the transmission. What it might do is shift into neutral after it starts. Today I shut the engine off while it was in reverse on purpose. It started but it didn't shift into neutral. It stayed in reverse.

That's exactly the way it works. Based on all that you have said and we discussed, it would be good to check the oil pressure.

[Peter Aawen]

Late thought there were few managed to reverse the HCM filter & other problems filter related.

I ignored this comment because I didn't understand it but it is possible the dealer didn't replace the HCM oil filter when they changed the oil when I purchased it. I'll order a new one and replace it and see if that changes anything.

Several people have told me this. But the HCM uses oil pressure to shift the transmission. What it might do is shift into neutral after it starts. Today I shut the engine off while it was in reverse on purpose. It started but it didn't shift into neutral. It stayed in reverse.

That's exactly the way it works. Based on all that you have said and we discussed, it would be good to check the oil pressure.

Given what you've told us elsewhere about the way you check your oil, doing it before you ride and not waiting long enough until it's warm enough to get the level & volume right; and the fact that if the oil volume & pressure isn't pretty much EXACTLY RIGHT on these V-Twin Spyders, the computers on them can/will just refuse to shift at all; and with what you tell us you've already checked and hopefully eliminated; all of the above suggests that you may have an oil problem... pressure &/or volume - except that they do usually show codes when that sort of problem happens, at least, they do if it happens while you're riding; so if you haven't been able to ride &/or run the engine for too long in the recent past, then maybe...

So your 'failure to shift' issues could be oil pressure related, for any of number of reasons, including that possibly the HCM filter is the wrong one, &/or maybe it's inserted backwards, so that no oil pressure gets thru at all, but if the SE has changed gears when prompted by the flappy paddles at all since your last oil & filter change, then it's probably not that... But you don't necessarily need a new filter to check that, you could do it now!!

Or maybe running it with the incorrect volume of oil over a longish period (oil level/volume either too high when it's hot, or too low when it's hot; but you'll likely only see that if you do your oil level check after much longer than it takes to get the radiator cooling system up to fan operating temps; saaay, by running it for at least 30 mins of riding at Hwy revs/speeds with some gear changes up & down, etc.) due to using the incorrect checking process, means the lack/excess of oil volume could've damaged the scavenge &/or pressure pump/s; or possibly even just worn the seals; such that now the engine &/or trans is not getting suitable oil pressure/volume at the right time to even think about doing anything like shifting ...

Or maybe the LH Control Module (the Handgrip & selector) has just given up thru age & time or there's no signal getting thru to the TCM or HCM for some other reason...

My thoughts to proceed from where you are now would be to check the oil level properly, even if that means draining it all out and refilling with it just the correct quantity if you can't do the checking process correctly within a couple of minutes AFTERa ride; and checking the HCM filter by taking the cover off, removing it, and visually/physically ensuring it's relatively clean, the right length (there's a long & a short filter for these things, and some have put the short filter in the long housing - but your Spyder just won't change gear if you do that!! ) it'll probably be a tad less messy if the oil is drained when you do unscrew the cover... Oh, & IIRC, the 3 screws aren't all the same length, so you MUST put them back in the correct holes!

Only after doing all this ^^ would I start looking further afield - there's still things like wiring looms to check, connectors to ensure are properly connecting, and probably a bunch of other stuff you can do while you wait 'til you can get it to a dealer. Good Luck!

[Cadaverdog]

I'm fairly sure I run the bike long enough to properly check the oil. The operator's guide says run it for 30 seconds, shut it off and check it. I let it run till the fan comes on which takes a few minutes. I have checked it after I rode it a short distance and the level was the same as it was when I checked it before I rode it. I have never let it get less than halfway between full and add or overfilled it. I removed the HCM filter and inspected it. It was completely intact and looked fairly new. But I replaced it anyway. My filter cover only has two bolts and they're the same length. I replaced the paddle shifter.

[Cadaverdog]

That's exactly the way it works. Based on all that you have said and we discussed, it would be good to check the oil pressure.

This is probably a stupid question but the shop manual lists a specific part number oil pressure gauge 529 036 142 to use but I can't find one online. It's slightly different than a regular gauge. It has a return line. But I assume I can use one that doesn't have a return line as well. What do you think? I found a way to check the voltages from the TCM to the shift solenoids. I'm going to do that next.

[Mikey]

Load test your battery..

[Cadaverdog]

Load test your battery..

I don't think the battery is the problem. After I manually shifted it into neutral it fired right up.

[Peter Aawen]

I don't think the battery is the problem. After I manually shifted it into neutral it fired right up.

Yep, that's possibly cos there was no longer any load on what sounds like a tired battery as it tried to shift the gearbox into neutral via the electro-solenoids at the same time as spinning the starter &/or starting up all the computers...

Hence the suggestion to load test your battery - what you've described is pretty much exactly what happens to the SE's if you've shut it down in gear and the battery is getting a bit tired.

[Cadaverdog]

Yep, that's possibly cos there was no longer any load on what sounds like a tired battery as it tried to shift the gearbox into neutral via the electro-solenoids at the same time as spinning the starter &/or starting up all the computers...

Hence the suggestion to load test your battery - what you've described is pretty much exactly what happens to the SE's if you've shut it down in gear and the battery is getting a bit tired.

I'll give it a shot but that doesn't explain why it won't shift into reverse of first gear with the engine warmed up and running.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I'll give it a shot but that doesn't explain why it won't shift into reverse of first gear with the engine warmed up and running.

OK you've checked some things out and are working ..... I also had a 2011 with an SE trans. and it went south , but only showed CODES ... it did function .... My Dealer claimed they couldn't find the issue .... At SpyderFest in 2014 the BRP Tech Team LOOKED IT UP and discovered 214 stored CODES - OMG how could this be .... They said the Paddle shifter needed re-placing .... They didn't have one, but would contact my dealer and get it fixed after I got home ...... Soooooooooooooooo I went to a gas station and put 46 PSI in the front tires lowered the rear to 10 ( auto tire ) headed to the Rogersville Drag track and took home a trophy ..... good luck ... Mike

[Mikey]

I don't think the battery is the problem. After I manually shifted it into neutral it fired right up.

Yes, it may not seem like a good thing to do, but you have to start somewhere, and these bikes do not work well without a fully charged system! You have already taken the shift arm off and checked for stripped shaft and put it back on tight, so that's ok. You have checked your fluids, they're ok! You have fettled around and got it to run and shift, and it's still acting up! I would take it and have the battery load tested to make sure the battery's where it should be and in good working order, if that checks out ok, then you may have a problem in the shift controls itself, a few people on here have had that problem! I personal like knocking the easy stuff off first, electrical gremlins are the worst things in my book to chase. That system works great, why would you want to hook a jockey shifter up? Good Luck I hope you find the problem soon!

[Cadaverdog]

Yes, it may not seem like a good thing to do, but you have to start somewhere, and these bikes do not work well without a fully charged system! You have already taken the shift arm off and checked for stripped shaft and put it back on tight, so that's ok. You have checked your fluids, they're ok! You have fettled around and got it to run and shift, and it's still acting up! I would take it and have the battery load tested to make sure the battery's where it should be and in good working order, if that checks out ok, then you may have a problem in the shift controls itself, a few people on here have had that problem! I personal like knocking the easy stuff off first, electrical gremlins are the worst things in my book to chase. That system works great, why would you want to hook a jockey shifter up? Good Luck I hope you find the problem soon!

I decided to fix it right. I'll pull the battery out and have it tested asap.

[Bfromla]

Late thought there were few managed to reverse the HCM filter & other problems filter related.

[Cadaverdog]

Late thought there were few managed to reverse the HCM filter & other problems filter related.

I ignored this comment because I didn't understand it but it is possible the dealer didn't replace the HCM oil filter when they changed the oil when I purchased it. I'll order a new one and replace it and see if that changes anything.

[Cadaverdog]

Checked the battery. It was fine. After disconnecting the gear shift level I got it to manually shift into neutral again using a 13mm wrench. Bike fired up but nothing happens when I try to put it in gear using the handlebar controls. I'm going to take the paddle shifter apart next. I still think I could bypass the HCM completely by figuring out a way to manually move the gear shift lever with the shaft from the HCM disconnected. My thought is the SE5 transmission is basically an automatic transmission with a manual valve body. The hydralic clutch is basically the same thing as a torque converter. I could hook up a B&M Quick click shifter to it.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Checked the battery. It was fine. After disconnecting the gear shift level I got it to manually shift into neutral again using a 13mm wrench. Bike fired up but nothing happens when I try to put it in gear using the handlebar controls. I'm going to take the paddle shifter apart next. I still think I could bypass the HCM completely by figuring out a way to manually move the gear shift lever with the shaft from the HCM disconnected. My thought is the SE5 transmission is basically an automatic transmission with a manual valve body. The hydralic clutch is basically the same thing as a torque converter. I could hook up a B&M Quick click shifter to it.

Well everything I've read ( here ) about the SE 5 and SE 6 trans. is they are MANUAL transmissions but use solenoids ( ? ) to accomplish the shifting. .....what say you Peter >>>>> Mike

[Peter Aawen]

Checked the battery. It was fine. After disconnecting the gear shift level I got it to manually shift into neutral again using a 13mm wrench. Bike fired up but nothing happens when I try to put it in gear using the handlebar controls. I'm going to take the paddle shifter apart next. I still think I could bypass the HCM completely by figuring out a way to manually move the gear shift lever with the shaft from the HCM disconnected. My thought is the SE5 transmission is basically an automatic transmission with a manual valve body. The hydralic clutch is basically the same thing as a torque converter. I could hook up a B&M Quick click shifter to it.

Yeah, NO!

The SE5's (& the SE6's too, for that matter! ) are basically the same MANUAL transmission as the SM's only with electro-solenoid activated Quick-shifters triggered by the paddle shifter; and in the SE5's teamed with the high revving V-Twins, the addition of a Centrifugal Clutch that requires about 3400 RPM in the way of engine revs to fully engage; while the SE6's teamed with the 1330 motors have an engine oil pressure activated hydraulic clutch!! The Spyder's SE Transmissions are NOTHING like an automatic transmission at all, with or without a manual valve body; and their clutches are nothing like what you'd know as an automobile's auto trans torque converter either!

They AREN'T automatic gearboxes by any stretch of the description; both the SE5's & SE6's are fully MANUAL gearboxes with the addition of sexy paddle shift activated electro-solenoid driven quick shifting arrangements built in & an 'automatic' clutch as outlined above that'll allow all the electro-solenoid quick shifting stuff to work...

They won't & can't shift UP automatically at all, you MUST initiate the upshifts yourself via the paddle shifter; and the 'auto' part of the downshift is really just a 'fail-safe feature' intended to make sure that you change down when you stop; that you can't twist the throttle hard & pour too much power/torque into the trans while you're still in too high a gear for your given road speed/engine revs; nor can you try to pull away from a stop while still in a high gear & thereby fry the clutch &/or possibly damage the MANUAL gearbox!

Just Sayin'

But when you say you 'checked the battery', what exactly did you do, & what voltages did you get resting, under load, and while running??

[Cadaverdog]

Yeah, NO!

The SE5's (& the SE6's too, for that matter! ) are basically the same MANUAL transmission as the SM's only with electro-solenoid activated Quick-shifters triggered by the paddle shifter; and in the SE5's teamed with the high revving V-Twins, the addition of a Centrifugal Clutch that requires about 3400 RPM in the way of engine revs to fully engage; while the SE6's teamed with the 1330 motors have an engine oil pressure activated hydraulic clutch!! The Spyder's SE Transmissions are NOTHING like an automatic transmission at all, with or without a manual valve body; and their clutches are nothing like what you'd know as an automobile's auto trans torque converter either!

They AREN'T automatic gearboxes by any stretch of the description; both the SE5's & SE6's are fully MANUAL gearboxes with the addition of sexy paddle shift activated electro-solenoid driven quick shifting arrangements built in & an 'automatic' clutch as outlined above that'll allow all the electro-solenoid quick shifting stuff to work...

They won't & can't shift UP automatically at all, you MUST initiate the upshifts yourself via the paddle shifter; and the 'auto' part of the downshift is really just a 'fail-safe feature' intended to make sure that you change down when you stop; that you can't twist the throttle hard & pour too much power/torque into the trans while you're still in too high a gear for your given road speed/engine revs; nor can you try to pull away from a stop while still in a high gear & thereby fry the clutch &/or possibly damage the MANUAL gearbox!

Just Sayin'

But when you say you 'checked the battery', what exactly did you do, & what voltages did you get resting, under load, and while running??

I took it to my mechanic. He's a car/truck/tractor mechanic by trade but he works on bikes too. He has a battery and alternator tester like they use at auto parts store like Auto Zone and O Reilly's.

[Cadaverdog]

The Spyder's SE Transmissions are NOTHING like an automatic transmission at all, with or without a manual valve body; and their clutches are nothing like what you'd know as an automobile's auto trans torque converter either!

Let me clarify my comment. What I meant was they can be shifted like an automatic with a manual valve body as in you shift it manually without depressing a clutch pedal.

[Snowbelt Spyder]

Let me clarify my comment. What I meant was they can be shifted like an automatic with a manual valve body as in you shift it manually without depressing a clutch pedal. My knowledge of car transmissions is pretty dated. And I was never a transmission mechanic. I could replace them, service them, etc. but I never tried rebuilding one. I had plenty of friends that were transmission mechanics.

That’s just not true either, Dog. Every time you or the computer shifts the SE5 gearbox, the Hydraulic Control Module momentarily disengages and reengages the clutch. You’d have to be pretty good at throttle blipping to jury rig your bike to shift without a command from the Transmission Control Module. And what do you think is going to happen when the computers see that the gearbox is shifting without a command to shift? Dozens of codes and Limp Home Mode. Maybe take a breath and learn how this thing works.

[Leaping1]

I had the spline worn out on my shift arm with my 2011 RT-S. It went crazy. Would crank then shut off or run rough, Would not go into any gear. The shift arm really did not look that bad but its soft metal. You can order a new arm from the internet. Good luck.
Leon