2015 Can Am Spyder F3 - Needs a new engine!

[Scottncol]

UPDATE.

I was able to get the crank turned, TO A CERTAIN POINT, and then it froze.

However, all of the cylinders move freely.

Here is a video. In the video I say that the "top lobe does not turn", when it does in fact turn.

My borescope is just a hair to big... darn!

Perhaps something is preventing the crank from turning.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/xqx6c...7zw35cvtl&dl=0

[safecracker]

I have been following these threads with interest. Sorry I do not have any ideas. Just trying to learn. Hope you find the problem. Bruce

[Scottncol]

I have been following these threads with interest. Sorry I do not have any ideas. Just trying to learn. Hope you find the problem. Bruce

me too!

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

IMHO that engine is NOT seized .... from you " SOMETHING is stopping it from turning the HOLE ( whole ) way " ....I don't see how this is possible .... good luck ....Mike

[AndysF3S]

me too!

When you removed the spark plugs were they all the same color (light brown) or was one white or black? Is there any mechanical damage to the spark plug end; if yes which cylinder did it come from? The fact that you can turn the crank until it hits something makes me suspect that you have an obstruction in that cylinder which may be a piston land or worst case a dropped valve. You can insert a slim object through the spark plug hole into each cylinder and see which is closest to the top that may also give you a clue to which has the damage.

Your next step would be to remove the head and see what the mechanical damage is? Good luck, I hope its minor?

[Scottncol]

IMHO that engine is NOT seized .... from you " SOMETHING is stopping it from turning the HOLE ( whole ) way " ....I don't see how this is possible .... good luck ....Mike

Absolutely agree... now, to find what is preventing it from turning... Timing chain jump, perhaps?

[spyderdave]

You've established that the engine in not seized, but since it will not rotate fully, something is obviously stopping it. If you want to tackle this on your own, you would benefit by investing in an online manual; there is an extensive secton on the engine as well as accessories diven by the crank.

[Peter Aawen]

UPDATE.

I was able to get the crank turned, TO A CERTAIN POINT, and then it froze.

However, all of the cylinders move freely.

Here is a video. In the video I say that the "top lobe does not turn", when it does in fact turn.

My borescope is just a hair to big... darn!

Perhaps something is preventing the crank from turning.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/xqx6c...7zw35cvtl&dl=0

Well it's clearly not seized, so I'd say that's a pretty good assumption.

Before jumping into removing the head, it might be worthwhile checking the gearbox end next...

Altho if you haven't done it already, and you think it's been run for more than just 'moments' after the last oil change, possibly a better place to start would be to drain the oil & check it, the drain plugs, & the filters for any debris?!

Mind you, there's still all those codes you had showing unaccounted for?? I'm guessing that either they were initially poor battery related & haven't cleared since/in your ownership cos you haven't been able to properly run the engine; or that there's more going on in there than what you think and that they will raise their ugly heads again later, regardless of whatever it is stopping the engine from turning over!

Just Sayin'

[BertRemington]

The 1330cc is three throws at 120 degrees with a 3.15 inch stroke. Unfortunately the crankshaft did not make a full revolution but it still is necessary to measure the minimum and maximum travel distances for each cylinder to further our analysis.

[BajaRon]

First, if the lobe in the upper right hand corner is not moving. Then you have a broken camshaft. I'm taking your word for it because in the video, I can't tell for sure.

The other thing I am seeing, from my less than ideal visual. You say 'Stuck'. But what does that mean? Does that mean you can't turn it anymore? Or that it just gets hard to turn?

When you get cam lobes opening valves, it will get a lot harder to turn your wrench. It will be a soft stop due to friction. If you are using a 3/8" or 1/2" standard ratchet, it may not give you enough leverage to move the cam lobes past the valve spring tension. All you need is more leverage to get it turned past the 'Stuck' point. Won't fix your non-turning cam lobe. But if the cam is broken, it won't hurt anything to get a full revolution.

But as others have said, your engine is not seized and your fix should be much less than a new motor.

[Scottncol]

You've established that the engine in not seized, but since it will not rotate fully, something is obviously stopping it. If you want to tackle this on your own, you would benefit by investing in an online manual; there is an extensive secton on the engine as well as accessories diven by the crank.

I have had a service manual since the day I got the bike.

[Scottncol]

First, if the lobe in the upper right hand corner is not moving. Then you have a broken camshaft. I'm taking your word for it because in the video, I can't tell for sure.

The other thing I am seeing, from my less than ideal visual. You say 'Stuck'. But what does that mean? Does that mean you can't turn it anymore? Or that it just gets hard to turn?

When you get cam lobes opening valves, it will get a lot harder to turn your wrench. It will be a soft stop due to friction. If you are using a 3/8" or 1/2" standard ratchet, it may not give you enough leverage to move the cam lobes past the valve spring tension. All you need is more leverage to get it turned past the 'Stuck' point. Won't fix your non-turning cam lobe. But if the cam is broken, it won't hurt anything to get a full revolution.

But as others have said, your engine is not seized and your fix should be much less than a new motor.

Really appreciate your response.

All lobes are moving fine.

The crankshaft is very easy to turn until it stops.

I originally thought that the timing chain may have jumped, since when I pulled the valve cover, the EX and IN were not aligned. That certainly could have cause the problem.

I got the timing all set and then tried to turn the crank by hand again and no luck. So, I took the timing chain off the lower timing sprocket and tried to turn the crank with the cylinder head not engaged by the timing chain. And no luck.

I do have movement of all cylinders. I measured the distance that each cylinder travels, from top to bottom, and the distances are all the same with each cylinder.

To summarize:
1- the cylinders move,
2- the timing was off but corrected
3- the crankshaft stops at the same place even with the cylinder head not engaged by the timing belt.
4- it is 100% not a electrical or connector issue
5- I pulled the oil pump cover to see if anything was wrong there and no problems. Looks as good as new.
6. Before it stopped, there was no abnormal noises coming from the engine. No tapping, no clinking... nothing.

Thanks again for all the help... any more suggestions are appreciated.

[BajaRon]

If a valve is contacting a piston that will give you a hard stop. Is the non moving cam lobe holding a valve open?

[Scottncol]

If a valve is contacting a piston that will give you a hard stop. Is the non moving cam lobe holding a valve open?

I mis-spoke in the video. All lobes are moving just fine.

As a matter of fact, I disconnected the cylinder head by removing the timing belt and I still get the same stop, in the same location.

[BertRemington]

The hard stop could be something in a cylinder. It could also be something directly driven by the crankshaft. Two items come to mind: the alternator and the clutch drive gear (which contains anti-backlash springs).

[Scottncol]

The hard stop could be something in a cylinder. It could also be something directly driven by the crankshaft. Two items come to mind: the alternator and the clutch drive gear (which contains anti-backlash springs).

New borescope coming tomorrow to check out the cylinders.

Would that cause the crankshaft to move around 180 degrees (assuming) and stop?

[BCNewell]

If it’s only rotating ~180* or so before binding, I would think you have a bolt head that has backed out somewhere and is contacting something (the block, a case cover, etc). Vaguely recall that being a problem with a few 3rd gen Honda Magna 750’s. I have very limited understanding of the I-3 Rotax, but I don’t think the problem is with the crank/rods/pistons/cylinders. Good luck. Hoping it’s something minor …

[SeniorRider]

Maybe a valve stuck open due the valve guide or a valve dropped.

[BertRemington]

I think BCN has identified the problem.

While the alternator is 3-phase there really isn't anything that sticks out and a winding failure is very unlikely.

On the other hand, the Clutch Hub Retaining Nut has been know to back out due to an apparent Loctite failure. Except that manifests as a loss of forward motion not engine rotation.

But in the direct drive to the crankshaft is the Clutch Hub itself. And it has three retaining screws associated with the Anti-Backlash gear. It's not clear (at least to me) their relationship to the transmission case but I can envision how one backs out to contact some reinforcement ribbing of the case. Why more than 120 degrees? Because the screw is contacting different ribs depending on rotation direction.

I finally looked at the pictures of the Spyder and note it has a trailer hitch. So here's my scenario. The previous owner made long travel trips with a heavily loaded trailer but didn't like high RPM engine operation (exacerbated by the 89T high performance rear sprocket) so driving slowly didn't keep engine RPM above 4000 in consideration of the trailer load. As the clutch engagement is managed by line pressure and line pressure, although regulated, is related to engine RPM a lower line pressure resulted in looser clutch engagement and heating from clutch friction plates sliding against the steel plates. The heat loosened the Loctite on the screw and it gradually backed out under vibration and spring pressure.

I would like to know about the circumstances of the stoppage in Post #11. If my scenario is correct, there should have been buzzing noise many miles before this occurred. And it's likely it occurred at low speed probably leaving from a stop or else the driving effects would be severe.

PS again an oil drain (Scott you don't seem to be listening on this) and professional oil sample examination is needed. And the HCM filter must be disassembled and examined also.

[Latrappe]

I think BCN has identified the problem.

While the alternator is 3-phase there really isn't anything that sticks out and a winding failure is very unlikely.

On the other hand, the Clutch Hub Retaining Nut has been know to back out due to an apparent Loctite failure. Except that manifests as a loss of forward motion not engine rotation.

But in the direct drive to the crankshaft is the Clutch Hub itself. And it has three retaining screws associated with the Anti-Backlash gear. It's not clear (at least to me) their relationship to the transmission case but I can envision how one backs out to contact some reinforcement ribbing of the case. Why more than 120 degrees? Because the screw is contacting different ribs depending on rotation direction.

I finally looked at the pictures of the Spyder and note it has a trailer hitch. So here's my scenario. The previous owner made long travel trips with a heavily loaded trailer but didn't like high RPM engine operation (exacerbated by the 89T high performance rear sprocket) so driving slowly didn't keep engine RPM above 4000 in consideration of the trailer load. As the clutch engagement is managed by line pressure and line pressure, although regulated, is related to engine RPM a lower line pressure resulted in looser clutch engagement and heating from clutch friction plates sliding against the steel plates. The heat loosened the Loctite on the screw and it gradually backed out under vibration and spring pressure.

I would like to know about the circumstances of the stoppage in Post #11. If my scenario is correct, there should have been buzzing noise many miles before this occurred. And it's likely it occurred at low speed probably leaving from a stop or else the driving effects would be severe.

PS again an oil drain (Scott you don't seem to be listening on this) and professional oil sample examination is needed. And the HCM filter must be disassembled and examined also.

Hi Scott, I am in agreement with Bert and as I mentioned earlier, I do not think your bike has really been ridden hard and probably just use to tow and yes, I have seen this also happen before with other vehicles that have been bought with low milage that are eight - nine years old, like in your case, I think that is an average of 1,500 miles a year, just food for thought mate and you can also see some of the mechanics complain that they have never been ridden hard ridden slow in a high gear and possibly in your case towing a heavy load, I think the average Kilometers here in Ozzie is about 20,000 about 12,000 miles a year for people that drive every day to work home and shopping, Just food for thought and it is human nature to think the worst at times but is also human nature to pray for the best and yes I reckon you got a steal when you get it sorted out.

[greer]

I know beans about mechanics, but this is a fascinating discussion.

Sarah

[Scottncol]

Bad news.

The next question, where to find an engine? Crate? Used?

Can I do this myself? (more a question for me)

IMG_1027.jpg

[BajaRon]

Bad news.

The next question, where to find an engine? Crate? Used?

Can I do this myself? (more a question for me)

IMG_1027.jpg

A little confused here. I assume this is a report on your engine? But to check compression, you have to be able to turn the engine over, which I thought was not possible. But if this report is correct, it does appear you'll need a motor.

We've seen a good number of old Spyders with very low mileage. It's almost always problematic. People coming off of Harley's buy them and ride them like a Harley. It's as bad for the Spyder as would be someone coming off a crotch rocket to a Harley, and riding it like a crotch rocket. It is important to ride the machine as designed, and not the way you think it should have been designed.

I am very sorry for your loss.

[Scottncol]

A little confused here. I assume this is a report on your engine? But to check compression, you have to be able to turn the engine over, which I thought was not possible. But if this report is correct, it does appear you'll need a motor.

We've seen a good number of old Spyders with very low mileage. It's almost always problematic. People coming off of Harley's buy them and ride them like a Harley. It's as bad for the Spyder as would be someone coming off a crotch rocket to a Harley, and riding it like a crotch rocket. It is important to ride the machine as designed, and not the way you think it should have been designed.

I am very sorry for your loss.

Yes, yesterday I contacted all of the local can am dealers and gave them the previous owners name and vin number. One of the dealers contacted me back and said that the vehicle had been in for service some time ago and this is what they found.

Wish they would have told me that when I purchase it!!!

So now I am searching for an engine... a question for the experts.

Can the F3 engine be swapped with an RT engine? I have found a few RT engines but no F3's.

[BajaRon]

Yes, yesterday I contacted all of the local can am dealers and gave them the previous owners name and vin number. One of the dealers contacted me back and said that the vehicle had been in for service some time ago and this is what they found.

Wish they would have told me that when I purchase it!!!

With this information, I'd contact the seller and demand my money back. Take them to small claims court if needed. This is outright fraud.

So now I am searching for an engine... a question for the experts.

Can the F3 engine be swapped with an RT engine? I have found a few RT engines but no F3's.

Same engine, so my initial thought would be yes.