Pedal Commander video on Banks power

[AndysF3S]

New video on Banks Power on the Pedal Commander explains what the unit does vs claims FYI, not meant to bash any users or vendors.

[Peteoz]

New video on Banks Power on the Pedal Commander explains what the unit does vs claims FYI, not meant to bash any users or vendors.

Yeah, the PC is not designed to make you think your Spyder is faster, which is what his premise is based on in making his negative call.

For me, it removes the lag if I am accidentally in too low a gear, where grabbing a handful of throttle simply bogs the Spyder down. The Pedal Commander eliminates this and lets you join freeway traffic without worry about that fast approaching B Double.
Sure, I could always make sure I am never in too low a gear, but being human, I make mistakes.

Pete

[Peter Aawen]

New video on Banks Power on the Pedal Commander explains what the unit does vs claims FYI, not meant to bash any users or vendors.

Got a link??

[EdMat]

Got a link??

Or, if you prefer YouTube directly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BL3pKztZirA

I have to say that I did kick back and LMAO watching it...............

[AndysF3S]

You can try this: https://official.bankspower.com/news...3632616.170645

Its under the banks power news and media, than scroll down the page until you see the trophy.

[DGoebel]

It is strange (this happens in the Car Forums as well) that so many people want to say that the Pedal Box or Pedal Commander doesn't make your XYZ faster, when both manufacturers clearly state that these devices are throttle response controllers (RESPONSE) being the key word. They just make slow, laggy, stock throttle's snappier.

I love mine and didn't have to pay for a tuned ECM, Though would love to someday.

Banks doesn't make a Can-AM Spyder unit, I tried, their units are ONLY OBDII compliant, so whatever he's selling doesn't apply to Spyders anyhow does it.

[blacklightning]

I did not watch the entire video, but I did skip around. When I saw the 5.0 mustang in the backgroud, I was interested. A lot of what he said was crap. I purchased the pedal commader for my 2017 5.0 mustang after being so happy with the pedal commander on my 2016 F3T and 2016 F3L. I am as much, or more satisfied with the performance of it on my mustang. Yes, just like on the spyder, you will need to adjust your driving if you turn it up to sport or sport plus. But having the buttons works for me. I do not like using my phone app for controling it. So yes, I do enjoy the pedal commander on my car and the only thing that I wish, is that they made one for my 2002 ford lightning.

[AndysF3S]

For those that don't know; Gale Banks is 80 years old and has been a speed enthusiast for at least 60 years. He has many land and water speed records and his knowledge of both gasoline and diesel engines naturally aspirated, turbo charged, supercharged, and supercharged plus turbo charged on the same diesel engine making huge horsepower reliably, is second to none. He has had several military contracts to provide upgraded diesel power for their heavy vehicles and is/was working on a Hybrid with them as well.

He provides both tunes and inline tuners for current and older vehicles that remain completely emissions compliant; and works closely with GM on the L5P diesel in the 2500/3500 series. He does not provide a product for bikes or spyders.

The reason he made the video is that Pedal Commander tried to compare their product to his, the Pedal Monster, which is made for the automotive industry.

There was an older thread on here (many pages of discussion) where one of the participants had a very good electrical background and he made a compelling argument that the Pedal Commander did nothing more than the throttle could do; it just changed the signal to the ECU so that the ECU responded to a more open throttle than the rider had actually commanded on the hand grip.

The reason I posted the video is that at 12:47 there is a chart that shows visually throttle position (vertically) vs pedal or hand grip position (horizontally). What happens is when you move the hand grip 10-20 percent you send the signal to the ECM that the throttle position is 70-90% open and that is why the driver gets the feeling that you are accelerating much quicker, when in fact you are accelerating at or near full throttle not at the hand grip throttle position. The ECM regulates the actual throttle opening as per its programming not as per the throttle position signal. Perhaps this is why some have commented to be very careful in wet conditions.

For those of us that have the F3S we have Eco, standard and sport mode. As the graph a bit later in the video shows, "Eco" is below the standard straight black line (idle to WOT) and "Sport" is above the straight line but all three eventually meet at the far right at WOT. The Eco is slower and lazier (economy) the standard is the straight line and what I normally use, Sport, feels quicker but doesn't give you any more power at WOT. I have read that the Sport mode also "relaxes the nanny a bit in the lower gears" that allows some wheel spin before reducing the throttle opening.

As I stated in the title, the purpose of the post was to try and explain what the Pedal Commander was doing to the throttle signal that was being sent to the ECM not to bash anyone that bought or sells this product. If you like the enhanced throttle response of the Pedal Commander continue to enjoy it.

[EdMat]

Bottom line, Pedal or Power Commander can give you that OH S4!t type feeling.

If you really want a performance increase look at Dynojet or Monster for a little more money.

[Yabbadabbadoo]

Yeah I think it's been pretty clearly documented that the Pedal Commander or Pedal Box only increases throttle response, not any true horsepower improvement at all. That being said the increased throttle response is a great pleasure to have. It makes the Spyder more fun to drive.

[dalavette]

I have used the Pedal Commander on my GMC Canyon and GMC Sierra. In both cases after driving it for a few weeks the vehicles went into limp mode. I used an ODBC tool to clear the codes which it did. But the issues reappeared after a short period of time. I now have two Pedal Commanders sitting uselessly on my workbench. I am very interested in the PedalMonster

[Peteoz]

I have used the Pedal Commander on my GMC Canyon and GMC Sierra. In both cases after driving it for a few weeks the vehicles went into limp mode. I used an ODBC tool to clear the codes which it did. But the issues reappeared after a short period of time. I now have two Pedal Commanders sitting uselessly on my workbench. I am very interested in the PedalMonster

That scenario occurred on Spyders as well when the Pedal Commander first came out for them, dalavette. In the few cases I saw, it ended up being that either the incorrect model had been shipped for the Spyder, or it had not been configured correctly on install.

Pete

[blacklightning]

That scenario occurred on Spyders as well when the Pedal Commander first came out for them, dalavette. In the few cases I saw, it ended up being that either the incorrect model had been shipped for the Spyder, or it had not been configured correctly on install.

Pete

My Mustang already has 3 or 4 driving modes. And to be honest, I did not need it with the way I drive now. But after getting over $50 off on the Black Friday sale, I couldn't help getting it. And just like the Spyder, it did not increase upon the 435 hp that it has stock, it just made it more responsive. If I truly wanted more power, I would have gone with a s/c or something.

[BajaRon]

A little bit of apples and oranges comparing the automotive to the Spyder/Ryker. But same concept. I still have some disagreement when people say these do not increase HP on the Spyder. Because they do increase available, useable HP in some situations. Because the computer on the FBW Spyders will begin to close off the throttle bodies at higher RPM's (still well below redline). While total potential HP is not changed, one of these units will increase usable HP by keeping your throttle bodies at WOT.

Taking out the lag between throttle actuation and implementation makes you quicker. Something that you can't get with the OEM setup.

These are a great addition for most ryders. They do what they are designed to do on the Spyder and Ryker (though personally, I don't think they are needed on the Ryker).

[AndysF3S]

A little bit of apples and oranges comparing the automotive to the Spyder/Ryker. But same concept. I still have some disagreement when people say these do not increase HP on the Spyder. Because they do increase available, useable HP in some situations. Because the computer on the FBW Spyders will begin to close off the throttle bodies at higher RPM's (still well below redline). While total potential HP is not changed, one of these units will increase usable HP by keeping your throttle bodies at WOT.

Taking out the lag between throttle actuation and implementation makes you quicker. Something that you can't get with the OEM setup.

These are a great addition for most ryders. They do what they are designed to do on the Spyder and Ryker (though personally, I don't think they are needed on the Ryker).

I am not an authority on the Pedal Commander but from the chart showing that the PC only changes the signal going to the ECM; the ECM doesn't know anything more and it opens and closes the throttle body based on its previous programming in the same way that it would if you were at that throttle opening by rotating your hand to that same position as the PC. If you roll into the throttle slowly and have a PC it changes the signal to the ECM to a higher foot pedal or hand rotation reading; resulting in a quicker acceleration based only on advancing the throttle signal nothing else. JMO

Even the Canam ECO, Standard and Sport do not change the HP the ECM adjusts the engine to provide, WOT is WOT in all modes and the PC as well. JMO

[BajaRon]

I am not an authority on the Pedal Commander but from the chart showing that the PC only changes the signal going to the ECM; the ECM doesn't know anything more and it opens and closes the throttle body based on its previous programming in the same way that it would if you were at that throttle opening by rotating your hand to that same position as the PC. If you roll into the throttle slowly and have a PC it changes the signal to the ECM to a higher foot pedal or hand rotation reading; resulting in a quicker acceleration based only on advancing the throttle signal nothing else. JMO

Even the Canam ECO, Standard and Sport do not change the HP the ECM adjusts the engine to provide, WOT is WOT in all modes and the PC as well. JMO

Initial WOT is WOT. But the ECU modifies that and will close the throttle bodies when the ryder still has the throttle in the wide open position.

[Peter Aawen]

I am not an authority on the Pedal Commander but from the chart showing that the PC only changes the signal going to the ECM; the ECM doesn't know anything more and it opens and closes the throttle body based on its previous programming in the same way that it would if you were at that throttle opening by rotating your hand to that same position as the PC. If you roll into the throttle slowly and have a PC it changes the signal to the ECM to a higher foot pedal or hand rotation reading; resulting in a quicker acceleration based only on advancing the throttle signal nothing else. JMO

Even the Canam ECO, Standard and Sport do not change the HP the ECM adjusts the engine to provide, WOT is WOT in all modes and the PC as well. JMO

Initial WOT is WOT. But the ECU modifies that and will close the throttle bodies when the ryder still has the throttle in the wide open position.

Juuust recalling the graph from BRP that's comparing the throttle response for ECO & Normal Modes in the Spyders, and I'm pretty sure that ECO mode, at least on the Spyders, doesn't ever actually achieve WOT!?!

IIRC, I reckon that it never gets that far; the ECO line on the graph was some % lower right from the outset, ending about 30% less than WOT at full twist, where the 'Normal Mode' actually hit WOT - and then, as Ron has mentioned, the control systems modify the command signal even further and despite the rider continuing to hold WOT (or the about 30% lower equivalent for ECO Mode) on the handgrip, the actual throttle opening is reduced somewhat... In the case of ECO Mode, that reduction is applied on top of the reduction that selecting ECO Mode already imposes!

So it's not true to say "WOT is WOT in all modes", because you never actually get to WOT in ECO Mode

And regardless of the Mode selected, even if you continue to hold your hand in the WOT position, the OEM control system will then cut back from/reduce that within moments anyway! I don't believe that the Power Commander changes any of that at all, nor does it 'reduce the Nanny' or do anything else to the OEM ECU or power output, even tho it will speed up the initial 'dial in' of your perceived throttle input as your hand twists the throttle... 'Achieving a wider throttle opening for less hand twist' is probably a 'more correct' way of describing what it does, cos it's basically just packing/compressing the former effect of a full hand twist into something less than that...

[AndysF3S]

Peter as "the editor in chief" please delete the entire thread thanks Andy

[AndysF3S]

Initial WOT is WOT. But the ECU modifies that and will close the throttle bodies when the ryder still has the throttle in the wide open position.

Let's not confuse the signal that goes from the hand grip with the signal that the ECM sends to the throttle body; the ECM controls the throttle body by the programmed parameters within it and a WOT from the hand grip will be the same whether it is from the PC or the hand grip if it isn't it will throw a TPS code, anyway as usual we are drifting away from the original purpose of the thread so go ahead and close it please. Thanks.

[Peteoz]

Let's not confuse the signal that goes from the hand grip with the signal that the ECM sends to the throttle body; the ECM controls the throttle body by the programmed parameters within it and a WOT from the hand grip will be the same whether it is from the PC or the hand grip if it isn't it will throw a TPS code, anyway as usual we are drifting away from the original purpose of the thread so go ahead and close it please. Thanks.

Threads just naturally die a death as members don’t comment on them, Andy. Just skip over the thread if you have lost interest, and it will effectively close itself

Pete

[mandytuning]

Nothing like a tune.

[EODSF]

Just installed a Pedal Box, bought it for $200 from a friend who won it in a raffle. Great upgrade, I keep it in Sport +1. I realize it didn't increase HP, or re-map my ECU, but it took that Throttle LAG out 95%.

[AndysF3S]

My point exactly only the "editor in chief decides", I will ignore this thread as it appears to be my only option, Thanks Peter I hope the forum continues to do well.

[Peter Aawen]

My point exactly only the "editor in chief decides", I will ignore this thread as it appears to be my only option, Thanks Peter I hope the forum continues to do well.

We're working on it, always!

[DickB]

Pedal Commander increases (or decreases) twist grip sensitivity, it does not increase throttle response.

Throttle response is a measure of how quickly a vehicle's engine can increase its power output in response to a driver's request for acceleration. Or, as Pedal Commander puts it on their website:

“…throttle response is more appropriately referred to as the time speed of increase in levels of power…”

Simply put, time to power.

Note that nowhere in the definition of “throttle response” is there any reference to the amount of effort or the distance required to move an input device to increase power. That is sensitivity.

A key factor in throttle response is how fast the Engine Control Unit (ECU) and electronic throttle body open the butterfly valve. Can add-on electronics like Pedal Commander improve throttle response?

I made throttle response measurements on my 2019 Ryker Rally, explained in detail below.

In the Ryker (and Spyder) throttle-by-wire system (Figure 1), the twist grip sends a Throttle Accelerator Signal (TAS) to the Engine Control Module (ECM, Can Am's term for ECU). The ECM controls a motor in the Throttle Body that operates the throttle butterfly valve. The Throttle Body sends a Throttle Position Signal (TPS) back to the ECM so that the ECM knows exactly the position of the butterfly valve. By monitoring the TAS and TPS, we can see the relationship between the twist grip position and movement and that of the butterfly valve, the key to throttle response. I did exactly that using an oscilloscope attached to my Ryker Rally 900.

Figure 2 shows the relationship between twist grip and butterfly valve on my Ryker powered on but not running. The blue line is the TAS and the yellow line is the TPS. The TAS varies from .5V at rest to 1.5V fully twisted, and the TPS varies from about .5V to 1.8V. To make this measurement, I twisted the grip fast, held it briefly, then let it snap back to rest. The vertical white dotted lines are measurement cursors, and the delta time is displayed at the lower right corner in orange – 76mS, or less than 1/10 second, to fully twist. This is literally faster than the blink of an eye.

In Figure 3 I've moved a copy of the TPS over the TAS, and adjusted it to the same scale vertically as the TAS. This allows us to better see the actual delay in butterfly response from twist grip, which is the red area. It is less than 50 ms (1/20th second).

Note that when I release the twist grip, it snaps back much faster than I can open it manually – almost instantly. But the butterfly does not close as fast. Why not? The butterfly is operated by an electric motor, which can only spin so fast. The motor also has to overcome inertia in the butterfly valve and the gears that connect the motor to the butterfly valve. Overcoming inertia is why the TPS takes some time to curve upward as the butterfly mechanism goes form zero to maximum speed and downward as it slows back to zero speed fully opened. When up to speed, the maximum rate at which the throttle body butterfly can operate is called the slew rate, and determines the slope of the curve. The Ryker slew rate looks to be about 60mS, which from what I understand is quite good.

If the ECM were limiting throttle response, it could only do so by limiting the speed of the butterfly below the maximum throttle body slew rate.

Can Pedal Commander increase butterfly opening speed and consequently throttle response?

To answer that, compare the slopes – the throttle body slew rates – of the leading and trailing edges of the TPS. Note that they are the same, albeit reversed of course. As noted, releasing the twist grip snaps it back faster than the slew rate of the throttle body. Also note that the slope of the leading edge of the TAS was the same as the TPS slew rate. If I could twist the grip faster, the butterfly would not open any faster, because without a Pedal Commander it is already moving as fast as is physically possible.

Pedal Commander plugs in between the twist grip and the ECM, and alters the TAS. I don't have a Pedal Commander to measure, but fortunately Pedal Commander has charts on their web site that detail operation (Figure 4).

From these charts, we see that for the same rate of twist, Pedal Commander will send a steeper slope TAS signal to the ECM, but this can and will not cause the butterfly to open any faster than the throttle body slew rate, which is already being achieved without Pedal Commander.

So, while it is technically true that throttle-by-wire exhibits a delay between grip twist and butterfly, and thus throttle response, the delay is very small. Also, the delay, and the maximum speed at which the butterfly can open, is determined by the characteristics of the throttle body motor speed and the mass of the moving parts. No electronics can make it go faster than the throttle body slew rate. We see that the Ryker ECM is not adding any delay in butterfly opening over the physical slew rate of the throttle body, but is operating it as fast as is physically possible. The ECM is not contributing to slow throttle response.

Why do many claim improved throttle response and/or acceleration with Pedal Commander? Because Pedal Commander does make the twist grip more sensitive, a small twist of the grip with it will open the butterfly more and thus deliver more power than the same small twist without it. This increase in sensitivity is perceived as improved throttle response. But we see that full butterfly opening and full power can be delivered as rapidly as the throttle body can operate without Pedal Commander by twisting more.

The Ryker ECU does limit butterfly opening under certain conditions.

I wanted to see what the butterfly was doing under different Ryker modes. These tests were done with the engine running, under real world conditions, with me fully twisting the grip from a standstill.

Figure 6 is Normal mode. You can see that the butterfly initially fully opens, but within a half second closes considerably as Traction Control takes over.

In Sport Mode, Figure 7, it stays fully open (at cost to my rear tire!).

In Eco Mode, Figure 8, note that the butterfly is limited to about 2/3 opening, which is exactly what is stated in the Ryker Operator's Guide. I expected that the ECM would also limit the butterfly slew rate, but it appears not.