What to do with this Transmission shifting dilemma?

[mcrtryder]

2016 Spyder RT-S. After 3 front sprocket failures which were finally rectified Jan 2023 under factory warranty, I have now come up against a real head scratcher. Sort of confusing but I’ll try and get it detailed as it happened.

Cruising at 70mph on the freeway when the Spyder seemed to just downshift, and the engine started lugging big time. Disengaged cruise control and backed off on the throttle at the same time. With a lugging engine, I got off the freeway while trying shift to a different gear setting. No help. Shutdown and called for a tow to the shop.

After the shop looked it over, they said they couldn’t replicate the problem. Picked the bike up the next day and rode it home (a short distance). Went for ride the next day and after about 15 minutes into the ride the downshift problem re-occurred. Pulled off to the roadside. Shutdown the engine while mulling over my next move. After about 5 minutes or so, I turned the ignition back on and noticed the gear shift indicator shift from 5th down into neutral on its own. Selected 1st and got back on the road.

Got to the next stop light indicating 1st gear and after a minute, with a green light, I added throttle with no effect. The Spyder just sat there. The Engine revved ok, but no go. Shutdown and pushed it clear of the traffic with no difficulty. It rolled freely with no problems. Waited a few more minutes. Then I turned the Ignition on with the same down shift indications. Selected 1st again with no problem, started out until next the stoplight where the same thing happened again. I limped home under these conditions.

After the bike cooled off completely, I was able to get it to the shop again (about 3 miles away). They looked it over and said no computer codes were being shown about the problem. They diagnosed it as a potential shift shaft problem after checking their records for others with similar problem. Here's the problem: That part is not available anywhere in the BRP system until Jan 2024!!! I even checked that out after contacting BRP directly for assistance. No help.

I suspect an electrical problem vice mechanical as I was able to push the Spyder without any difficulty at all, especially after a “cooling off” period where everything seemed to go back to normal until the engine got hot again. Should mention that I live in Las Vegas, NV where temps are hot? These problems began in June of this year, where temps were a bit above normal - 100 degrees+.

This post is extensive, but I needed to try and get a feel for the problem. What to do?

[BertRemington]

Yep heat-related. I recommend you do three things:

(1) install wrapped cat delete pipe as shown in this post https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/...nents-for-sale

(2) change oil to Motul 7100 15W-50 https://www.amazon.com/Motul-104299-Oil/dp/B00IKCYPIS as well as replace HCM filter

(3) change your coolant

As you know the SE6 uses electronic shift control with the TCM and other mechanisms located near and above the catalytic convertor. The multi-plate clutch is pressure-controlled (separate pump from engine) engagement using an HCM which has close tolerance solenoid valves similar to 90s/20s automatic transmissions together with sensors measuring oil pressure and temperature. And the 1330cc engine has an oil-to-water heat exchanger.

What these recommendations achieve is moving the engine heat away from the TCM/HCM into the muffler and into the radiators.

Motul 7100 15W50 keeps its viscosity (and maintains oil pressure) as temperatures and mileage increases to a much greater extent than BRP, et al 10W40 do.

Loss of viscosity DOES NOT harm the engine. But it does affect accurate and consistent HCM control of clutch engagement and thereby gear shifting.

Best wishes.

[oldguyinTX]

Just a guess, but maybe camshaft and/or crankshaft positioning sensors? But one would think that there would be stored codes that could be retrieved with BUDS. Did it go into limp mode?
EDIT: Also, maybe gear positioning sensor?

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

" cruising at 70 mph, the Spyder down-shifted ITSELF, and the engine started LUGGING " ... JMHO but I don't think this can happen ..... Mike

[old Timer]

Follow Bert Remington's advise 1st. take a good look see at your drained engine oil. check closely the coolant level in the cooling system.....and what the coolant looks like.

[Wrongway]

I had a similar problem on my 2014 RT.
It would start up fine after sitting for a while and then at cruising speed it would start downshifting all by itself.
Turns out due to an error by the previous owner, water had gotten into the fuse boxes and started to corrode the wiring. There was a third box with water in it but I can’t remember what it was.
Anyway, I got lucky due to a good technician at the local spyder dealer and he got the problem fixed without replacing expensive parts.
Here is a link to my problems:
https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/...95#post1374695

[BertRemington]

Wrongway -- corrosion was my first thought to but unlike you

The VCM was mentions because one of the fault codes led to mechanic to that.

but with no fault codes and with the cool down restorations MC's symptoms seemed more likely heat related.

Your advice needs to be repeated: don't use a pressure washer on Spyders!

PS you were lucky

there was a lot of liquid inside the cover. The colour was like a robins egg blue and had no taste of coolant or battery acid.

That liquid was copper sulfate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper(II)_sulfate from the corrosion of your wires, fuses, relays and terminals. A few months more you might have needed a new harness.

[mcrtryder]

Yep heat-related. I recommend you do three things:

(1) install wrapped cat delete pipe as shown in this post https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/...nents-for-sale

(2) change oil to Motul 7100 15W-50 https://www.amazon.com/Motul-104299-Oil/dp/B00IKCYPIS as well as replace HCM filter

(3) change your coolant

As you know the SE6 uses electronic shift control with the TCM and other mechanisms located near and above the catalytic convertor. The multi-plate clutch is pressure-controlled (separate pump from engine) engagement using an HCM which has close tolerance solenoid valves similar to 90s/20s automatic transmissions together with sensors measuring oil pressure and temperature. And the 1330cc engine has an oil-to-water heat exchanger.

What these recommendations achieve is moving the engine heat away from the TCM/HCM into the muffler and into the radiators.

Motul 7100 15W50 keeps its viscosity (and maintains oil pressure) as temperatures and mileage increases to a much greater extent than BRP, et al 10W40 do.

Loss of viscosity DOES NOT harm the engine. But it does affect accurate and consistent HCM control of clutch engagement and thereby gear shifting.

Best wishes.

Bert, thx for response. Finally able to get back onto Spyderlovers website gain after being frozen out for unknown reasons.
Some questions: 1. Wrapped cat delete pipe is a complete replacement for OEM exhaust? 2. Using AMSOIL ever since buying bike in Mar 2017. Is motul smell as AMSOIL? 3. Will do the coolant suggestion.
Just took bike out for test ride (about 10 minutes)after sitting in garage for 2 months. No issues at all. Shifting normally. Engine got up to normal temps with issues. I’m with you about heat issues. No if I can just convince dealer that it is the best solution for now.
Hopefully I can get back on and update you on result. Thx again for suggestions..

[mcrtryder]

Just a guess, but maybe camshaft and/or crankshaft positioning sensors? But one would think that there would be stored codes that could be retrieved with BUDS. Did it go into limp mode?
EDIT: Also, maybe gear positioning sensor?

Discussed those thoughts with lead mech. He came up with the shift shaft possible solution.
I’m still thinking heat related problem. Took the Spyder out for a 10 minute ride around neighborhood with no issues in shifting. Got eng up to normal and even stopped at idle for a few minutes in 1st with no problems on accelerating up to speed again.
Thx for response.
Forgot to add: (info only) after 2nd episode, the display did show limp home mode one time only. Never again after that one time.

[BertRemington]

Some questions: 1. Wrapped cat delete pipe is a complete replacement for OEM exhaust? 2. Using AMSOIL ever since buying bike in Mar 2017. Is motul smell as AMSOIL? 3. Will do the coolant suggestion.

(1) wrapped cat delete pipe only replaces catalytic convertor that is between engine exhaust header and muffler. The catalytic convertor is a major heat source due to being the first location where exhaust gases are slowed and distributed and due to the catalytic reaction itself. The convertor is located under the transmission where its heat flows upwards into the HCM and TCM.

An alternative to the cat delete pipe is installing an insulating blanket between the convertor and the HCM/TCM. Unfortunately there's very little room for this and without an air gap really doesn't provide any benefit.

Here's a parts list:

https://www.lamonstergarage.com/perf...l-1330-motors/
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B8QBTS8D/

(2) Amsoil (and BRP and L-M) are excellent oils for the Spyder engine. The problem is the transmission where the constant mesh straight-cut gears rapidly reduce the oil viscosity (I have a oil pressure gauge so I see this effect). That viscosity is needed for proper transmission operation, specifically the HCM solenoid valves and pressure-operated (engagement) multi-plate clutch. I see that Amsoil offers a 15W-50 (https://www.amsoil.com/p/15w-50-synt...cycle-oil-mff/) so I suggest you use that. I chose Motul because I'm familiar with it from my motorcycles. BajaRon sells the HCM filter here https://www.ebay.com/itm/382596537768/ He also carries Amsoil.

(3) Changing the coolant is mostly keeping the system clean and additives fresh. It also encourages you to check level more often. Yeah checking the level is a pain but less in comparison than rear tire pressure. Do not use a worm gear clamp from your local auto parts outlet. You want a constant torque clamp. Search is your friend.

BTW I have the parts and design for a coolant level sensor (https://www.amazon.com/Taidacent-Con...dp/B07FC5RGC7/, LED light) but have been overwhelmed (plus procrastination) with other projects. Later this year...

[mcrtryder]

(1) wrapped cat delete pipe only replaces catalytic convertor that is between engine exhaust header and muffler. The catalytic convertor is a major heat source due to being the first location where exhaust gases are slowed and distributed and due to the catalytic reaction itself. The convertor is located under the transmission where its heat flows upwards into the HCM and TCM.

An alternative to the cat delete pipe is installing an insulating blanket between the convertor and the HCM/TCM. Unfortunately there's very little room for this and without an air gap really doesn't provide any benefit.

Here's a parts list:

https://www.lamonstergarage.com/perf...l-1330-motors/
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B8QBTS8D/

(2) Amsoil (and BRP and L-M) are excellent oils for the Spyder engine. The problem is the transmission where the constant mesh straight-cut gears rapidly reduce the oil viscosity (I have a oil pressure gauge so I see this effect). That viscosity is needed for proper transmission operation, specifically the HCM solenoid valves and pressure-operated (engagement) multi-plate clutch. I see that Amsoil offers a 15W-50 (https://www.amsoil.com/p/15w-50-synt...cycle-oil-mff/) so I suggest you use that. I chose Motul because I'm familiar with it from my motorcycles. BajaRon sells the HCM filter here https://www.ebay.com/itm/382596537768/ He also carries Amsoil.

(3) Changing the coolant is mostly keeping the system clean and additives fresh. It also encourages you to check level more often. Yeah checking the level is a pain but less in comparison than rear tire pressure. Do not use a worm gear clamp from your local auto parts outlet. You want a constant torque clamp. Search is your friend.

BTW I have the parts and design for a coolant level sensor (https://www.amazon.com/Taidacent-Con...dp/B07FC5RGC7/, LED light) but have been overwhelmed (plus procrastination) with other projects. Later this year...

Which photo in your link is the part you’re referring to. And does it do away with the catalytic converter? If so, is it legal to do so? Just thoughts that keep popping up.
Thx again for your responses and suggestions. Giving me hope that maybe I can get around this sift shaft problem.

[BertRemington]

Which photo in your link is the part you’re referring to. #5 & #6

And does it do away with the catalytic converter? Yes.

If so, is it legal to do so? No. Therefore your dealer will not install it. Perhaps a member here will buy the pipe, wrap it, and send it to you. Other pipe vendors:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/304911043412

https://www.ebay.com/itm/134668571005

https://www.ebay.com/itm/185617655103

https://www.ebay.com/itm/403938799494

So on and so forth. I suggest you stick with an American made pipe.

[BertRemington]

I took another look at the exhaust and my memory was wrong -- the catalytic convertor is not under the transmission but further back. What is under the transmission (and the critical TCM and HCM) is the exhaust header. There's about 18" of pipe from the UEGO sensor to the convertor junction. Instead of a cat delete pipe, I suggest you wrap the pipe with something like this https://www.amazon.com/KRD-PERFORMAN...dp/B09WKBCQDP/ using stainless steel tie wraps every 2" or so. The exhaust header doesn't trap and generate heat like the convertor does but I think this wrap might be sufficient in your situation. Cheap enough and easy enough to try.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

.... years ago when I re-moved my CAT I wrapped that section from the cylinder head almost to the muffler .... and it's still there ......Mike

[mcrtryder]

Which photo in your link is the part you’re referring to. #5 & #6

And does it do away with the catalytic converter? Yes.

If so, is it legal to do so? No. Therefore your dealer will not install it. Perhaps a member here will buy the pipe, wrap it, and send it to you. Other pipe vendors:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/304911043412

https://www.ebay.com/itm/134668571005

https://www.ebay.com/itm/185617655103

https://www.ebay.com/itm/403938799494

So on and so forth. I suggest you stick with an American made pipe.

Thx again. Gonna approach dealer and see if they’ll install for me. I’m just too old for diy anymore. Really appreciate suggestions. ��I can get back on the road again shortly.

[mcrtryder]

I took another look at the exhaust and my memory was wrong -- the catalytic convertor is not under the transmission but further back. What is under the transmission (and the critical TCM and HCM) is the exhaust header. There's about 18" of pipe from the UEGO sensor to the convertor junction. Instead of a cat delete pipe, I suggest you wrap the pipe with something like this https://www.amazon.com/KRD-PERFORMAN...dp/B09WKBCQDP/ using stainless steel tie wraps every 2" or so. The exhaust header doesn't trap and generate heat like the convertor does but I think this wrap might be sufficient in your situation. Cheap enough and easy enough to try.

Replied to wrong post earlier. Will check with dealer and see if they’ll do the install for me. Too old for DIY’s anymore. Thx for taking time to helping me out.

[BertRemington]

Before you visit your dealer let's review the planned actions:

(1) dealer performed: wrap the section of exhaust pipe running beneath the HCM between the UEGO and convertor entrance with appropriate insulation (there are several options available, I cited only one).

(2) dealer performed: change the oil to Amsoil 15W50 to maintain viscosity in the HCM and clutch engagement oil circuit during high ambient temperatures. This is a high temperature viscosity increase only! Your existing oil is satisfactory otherwise. I recommend changing the HCM filter unless the dealer says otherwise.

(3) dealer performed: change the coolant. This is mostly "freshening" the coolant to extract that last increment of performance. If your budget is tight skip this step.

(4) ask your dealer if your Spyder has the latest TCM firmware or if BRP/Bosch have a "high temperature" version of the firmware. It might also be useful to reset the short-term and long-term trims in the TCM so it can relearn your driving habits and Spyder condition.

Short-term trim: the TCM observes and adjusts line pressures, engagement points, etc according to your driving style. This is less noticeable in a paddle-shifted transmission than a full-automatic transmission but still occurs.

Long-term trim: the TCM observes and adjusts line pressures, etc according to wear-related changes to the HCM solenoid valves and clutch plates.

If the dealer does reset the STT and LTT your Spyder will need a hundred miles or so to observe and adjust. Try to do this in cool weather or in the morning.

(5) while riding ensure RPM is 3500 and above. This is especially important for slow traffic. Resist the urge to shift-up, especially the kinda tall 1st gear. RPM is needed for the oil pumps (engine and transmission) to circulate the oil where it can be cooled via the water jacket and oil-to-water heat exchanger and for the water pump to circulate the water into radiators for water-to-air cooling.

Best wishes.

[mcrtryder]

Before you visit your dealer let's review the planned actions:

(1) dealer performed: wrap the section of exhaust pipe running beneath the HCM between the UEGO and convertor entrance with appropriate insulation (there are several options available, I cited only one).

(2) dealer performed: change the oil to Amsoil 15W50 to maintain viscosity in the HCM and clutch engagement oil circuit during high ambient temperatures. This is a high temperature viscosity increase only! Your existing oil is satisfactory otherwise. I recommend changing the HCM filter unless the dealer says otherwise.

(3) dealer performed: change the coolant. This is mostly "freshening" the coolant to extract that last increment of performance. If your budget is tight skip this step.

(4) ask your dealer if your Spyder has the latest TCM firmware or if BRP/Bosch have a "high temperature" version of the firmware. It might also be useful to reset the short-term and long-term trims in the TCM so it can relearn your driving habits and Spyder condition.

Short-term trim: the TCM observes and adjusts line pressures, engagement points, etc according to your driving style. This is less noticeable in a paddle-shifted transmission than a full-automatic transmission but still occurs.

Long-term trim: the TCM observes and adjusts line pressures, etc according to wear-related changes to the HCM solenoid valves and clutch plates.

If the dealer does reset the STT and LTT your Spyder will need a hundred miles or so to observe and adjust. Try to do this in cool weather or in the morning.

(5) while riding ensure RPM is 3500 and above. This is especially important for slow traffic. Resist the urge to shift-up, especially the kinda tall 1st gear. RPM is needed for the oil pumps (engine and transmission) to circulate the oil where it can be cooled via the water jacket and oil-to-water heat exchanger and for the water pump to circulate the water into radiators for water-to-air cooling.

Best wishes.

Got ii. Thx. Will update when done…