One thing that I have learned with over 30 years in the maintenance field is that "Most" people will disagree with just about anything concerning motorized vehicles.
Especially, Oil, Tires, Service Intervals, Antifreeze and Fuel Mileage.
Ron, what is/are the pathways and sources for moisture to enter the engine? The reason I ask is if the source is air then moisture won't enter the engine unless there is a pathway and the engine is in an environment where it's temperature fluctuates in sync with the ambient temperature. What happens is when a (supposedly) closed container sits outdoors and warms up in the day the air inside is partially expelled due to expansion. Then at night when it cools down and the air inside shrinks more ambient air is drawn in. The cooler air drawn in carries more moisture than the warmer air that is expelled, resulting in a gradual build up of moisture inside. But this scenario is predicated on the closed space having some venting path to ambient. We had this problem with valves and such being stored outside in Louisiana when I worked for the Dept of Energy. It was nigh impossible to wrap them tightly enough to prevent 'breathing', and so they would rust internally.
As far as the Rotax engine is concerned I think there are two reasons why moisture is not drawn in. First, the engine is close to airtight so air isn't going to be pumped in and out. Second, most Spyders, I dare say, are stored in the winter in a fairly constant temperature environment. What fluctuation there is in temperature is either so little, or of such short cycles, the engine is quite unlikely to fluctuate significantly in temperature. That's why I think the issue of moisture buildup inside the engine is an overblown concern.
Engine is not air tight, valve cover breather goes to air filter hose.
Last edited by Peter Aawen; 11-27-2023 at 02:24 PM.
Reason: ' 's ;-)
Iron at 214 ppm
Viscosity at 13.6
Moly and Boron present.
I'm surprised no one has said you can't use an oil with Moly or boron, both friction reducers.
I'm not that guy, moly is in nearly every oil formulation, auto or motorcycle/wet clutch.
You be you. I see a 30 weight oil that has quite a bit of metal in it.
It was due to be changed, and I'd still take the side of 5k changes max in anything that uses the engine oil to lube the gearbox.
No harm done short term, but CanAm only cares if they get you past the warranty period without an engine fart.
Last edited by Peter Aawen; 08-13-2023 at 05:50 PM.
Reason: Removed unwarrantedly aggressive comment...
Ron, what is/are the pathways and sources for moisture to enter the engine? The reason I ask is if the source is air then moisture won't enter the engine unless there is a pathway and the engine is in an environment where it's temperature fluctuates in sync with the ambient temperature. What happens is when a (supposedly) closed container sits outdoors and warms up in the day the air inside is partially expelled due to expansion. Then at night when it cools down and the air inside shrinks more ambient air is drawn in. The cooler air drawn in carries more moisture than the warmer air that is expelled, resulting in a gradual build up of moisture inside. But this scenario is predicated on the closed space having some venting path to ambient. We had this problem with valves and such being stored outside in Louisiana when I worked for the Dept of Energy. It was nigh impossible to wrap them tightly enough to prevent 'breathing', and so they would rust internally.
As far as the Rotax engine is concerned I think there are two reasons why moisture is not drawn in. First, the engine is close to airtight so air isn't going to be pumped in and out. Second, most Spyders, I dare say, are stored in the winter in a fairly constant temperature environment. What fluctuation there is in temperature is either so little, or of such short cycles, the engine is quite unlikely to fluctuate significantly in temperature. That's why I think the issue of moisture buildup inside the engine is an overblown concern.
There have been articles posted about Rotax engines used in aircraft and one of the biggest takeaways from the article was the engines need to be run and not sit for too long and water can accumulate causing internal rust issues. Ill see if I can locate it.
The geometry of the engine does lead to positive and negative pressure pulses in the crankcase.
The fact that the connecting rod is connected to a central position by the wrist pin at one end and an eccentric crank pin at the other means the acceleration of the piston up from bottom dead center and down from top dead center is not identical for a piston, which is why 180 degree twins have both primary and secondary vibrations and not just the secondary vibrations as you would think. The piston speeds are equal at TDC on one and BDC on the other (i.e. 0), and at the half way up or down mark. In 120 degree triples like the 1330 cc Rotax the geometry is even more complex as you have three pistons doing this at 120 degree intervals so you still get pressure pulses. This is accentuated by any piston blow by and increasing engine temperature adding a constant positive pressure component.
If this doesn't make sense, draw out the position of the piston crown in a diagram for a single cylinder engine at every 10 degrees of crank rotation, you will see what I mean. Speed down from TDC is not the same as speed up from BDC. It's just a function of geometry. I didn't believe it until I drew it out on paper. This is what makes crank balance weights and auxiliary balance shafts a complex compromise.
In humid climates the situation of moisture gaining entry to the engine is primarily because when the engine is hot, the moisture pulled into the engine by crankcase pressure pulsing is boiled off by the operating temperature of the air in the engine. However, when you stop the engine, as it cools, it draws moist ambient air into the engine as the internal pressure decreases.
In some climates, like in the North of England where the air is cool and moist, over a period of weeks the engine can start to exhibit emulsification as water droplets condense out in the engine and appear as milky droplets in the oil. As long as it isn't too bad, this is all boiled off as the engine started and run up to temperature again. However, over the winter if not used for months, enough oil can drain from from surfaces to leave moisture to lightly rust some metal surfaces. However, this is a function of temperature and humidity of the climate and I've never seen it here in dry as a bone Utah. But in some climates a spring oil change is better than a fall oil change as far as an annual service is concerned.
Can Am Syder RT Limited (2021)
Triumph Bonneville T120 (2018)
Idaho -- do you know if your oil analysis addresses wet clutch friction plate materials, which I believe are probably organic resin? I didn't see anything like that on your analysis. Thanks for sharing.
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT-S SE6 Freeway Commuter Pod
2016 Royal Enfield Classic 500 Fair-Weather Mountain Bike
You're right. After the initial 3000 mile oil change, per the manual, it's every additional 9300 miles or 1 year. Whichever comes first.
Old post. But the manual recommends changing the oil annually because it is just boiler plate advice. Some lubricants will not protect the engine from rust or corrosion while in storage. The manufacturer cannot control which oil you use so they err on the side of caution. However, it's been proven that Amsoil will protect for several years. And there are probably others that will as well. I tell my customers that they should honor the 9,300 (Or thereabouts) mileage recommendation. But not to worry if it takes more than a year to get there, if they are using Amsoil. I've proven this with my own machines. And this is the only reason I make this recommendation. Though others have verified it for themselves.
Idaho: Thanks for posting. Amsoil is a good product and can always be relied on. Your report confirms that in spades. The viscosity of the oil, at 13.6, was still in the 40W range so it had sheared very little.
But, if under warranty, it still might be wise to change your oil yearly. Might help avoid a hassle.
Absolutely! And save ALL receipts. Friend with another brand motorcycle with an engine problem went to the dealer for warranty. First question that the dealer asked, "was the oil changed regularly"? He had all his Amsoil receipts, oil and filters. Warranty fixed the bike. Tom
Baloo is my name. Spyders are my game. Well, it's a doo-bah-dee-doo, yes, it's a doo-bah-dee-doo, I mean a doo-bee, doo-bee, doo-bee, doo-bee, doo-bee-dee-doo. And, well, now. Ha ha! What have we here?
Idaho: The viscosity of the oil, at 13.6, was still in the 40W range so it had sheared very little.
Agreed. 13.6 converts to almost 38 weight oil. Not bad when you consider that the BRP blended oil shears to around 20 weight between 4,500 ~ 5,000 miles. That's why your motor may get noisier and shifting changes may occur as you get into this mileage.
But, if under warranty, it still might be wise to change your oil yearly. Might help avoid a hassle.
A worthy consideration. Though to deny warranty, the manufacturer must show cause & effect. If the oil tests out at or above the manufacturers recommendations, even at 2 years, say. I'm not sure they could make the case that a failure occurred because the oil wasn't unnecessarily changed after a 12 month period. Afterall, what is the purpose of the 1 year change interval if not to keep the oil within specs? If it is in spec., then where's the rub?
BRP knows the limits of their lubricants. I'd say the recommended service interval is a reflection of this. Though it is still a quandary as to why they recommend running nearly 5k on 20 weight oil.
While I agree Amsoil is one of the top oils, my wife has 2015 RT Limited with 70,000 miles and my 2015 F3S has 60,000 miles. I have done all oil changes at 9,000 miles with the BRP kit. Both have been trouble free and never use any oil between changes. Noise and shifting is fine all the way to change time. No recommendations to others, just my experience. What's great is we all have the freedom to use our choice. Also, if you do some research on Blackstone, their fuel dilution and viscosity results can be suspect.
Last edited by Peter Aawen; 11-29-2023 at 01:29 PM.
While I agree Amsoil is one of the top oils, my wife has 2015 RT Limited with 70,000 miles and my 2015 F3S has 60,000 miles. I have done all oil changes at 9,000 miles with the BRP kit. Both have been trouble free and never use any oil between changes. Noise and shifting is fine all the way to change time. No recommendations to others, just my experience. What's great is we all have the freedom to use our choice. Also, if you do some research on Blackstone, their fuel dilution and viscosity results can be suspect.
I've used a number of oil analysis companies. Results were similar. But I've been using Blackstone for years now as I find their service superior to the others I've tried. I have always been very happy with them. I took your advice and did some research. I found a good number of positive reviews. But nothing negative. Can you provide a link to the information you are referring to?
It is my understanding that these companies use pretty much the same, industry standard, testing processes. In my experience, the numbers vary only slightly from company to company. What I like about Blackstone is their explanation of the data.
Last edited by Peter Aawen; 11-29-2023 at 01:30 PM.
Reason: Fixed quote display ;-)
I have had my oil analyzed twice now, once with XPS at 8,900 miles and now with 9,000 miles on Amsoil. The XPS came back critical for viscosity 8.7 which equates to 20 weight oil. The amsoil came back for viscosity at 12.3 which is very close to 40 weight oil. This most recent amsoil was critical for oxidation (37) where XPS was at 10. There comments were: "Oxidation is at severe level. Drain interval may be over-extended or unit may be running too hot. Elevated Oxidation causes acid by-products, deposits, and sludge, and can increase viscosity and wear." Should I be concerned about this and does anyone have any other thoughts? The spyder has 43,000 miles on it now and the oil was in the spyder for 8 month and 9,000 miles with no observed mechanical problems other than the cam position sensor went out a week after I changed the oil. The oil tested had 200 miles on it when the cam position sensor went out, but it wasn't tested until 9,000 miles.
Last edited by Peter Aawen; 04-20-2024 at 03:54 PM.
If the oil only had 200 miles on it when you tested it and it showed oxidation at 37 I would tend to question the accuracy of that test?
If the oil had 9000m on it when tested and it was changed then, your fresh oil should be fine, but you may want to try a test earlier (say, 4500m?) to see if the oxidation number is more normal. If yes, continue on without an oil change; if no, then you may want to reduce the interval a bit?
Depending on your level of concern you have 3 choices: ignore, retest, or change the oil.
Last edited by Peter Aawen; 04-20-2024 at 03:56 PM.
If the oil only had 200 miles on it when you tested it and it showed oxidation at 37 I would tend to question the accuracy of that test?
If the oil had 9000m on it when tested and it was changed then, your fresh oil should be fine, but you may want to try a test earlier (say, 4500m?) to see if the oxidation number is more normal. If yes, continue on without an oil change; if no, then you may want to reduce the interval a bit?
Depending on your level of concern you have 3 choices: ignore, retest, or change the oil.
The oil had 9,000 when tested but was only at 200 when the CPS failed. Just trying to figure out this oxidation stuff.
Last edited by Peter Aawen; 04-20-2024 at 03:58 PM.
Reason: Fixed quote display ;-)
I have had my oil analyzed twice now, once with XPS at 8,900 miles and now with 9,000 miles on Amsoil. The XPS came back critical for viscosity 8.7 which equates to 20 weight oil. The amsoil came back for viscosity at 12.3 which is very close to 40 weight oil. This most recent amsoil was critical for oxidation (37) where XPS was at 10. There comments were: "Oxidation is at severe level. Drain interval may be over-extended or unit may be running too hot. Elevated Oxidation causes acid by-products, deposits, and sludge, and can increase viscosity and wear." Should I be concerned about this and does anyone have any other thoughts? The spyder has 43,000 miles on it now and the oil was in the spyder for 8 month and 9,000 miles with no observed mechanical problems other than the cam position sensor went out a week after I changed the oil. The oil tested had 200 miles on it when the cam position sensor went out, but it wasn't tested until 9,000 miles.
The info I find states if the base number drops below 3 then it's time to change the oil. I wonder how your lab determines the oxidation number, and what does it mean? Oxidation causes acid to build up in the oil and the base number is a measure of well the additives in the oil neutralize the acid. My oil reports don't show TAN nor oxidation which make me wonder how valuable that number is. How about posting the entire lab report here? I think several of us would like to see it.
2014 Copper RTS
Tri-Axis bars, CB, BajaRon sway bar & shock adjusters, SpyderPop's Bumpskid, NBV peg brackets, LED headlights and modulator, Wolo trumpet air horns, trailer hitch, custom trailer harness, high mount turn signals, Custom Dynamics brake light, LED turn signal lights on mirrors, LED strip light for a dash light, garage door opener, LED lights in frunk, trunk, and saddlebags, RAM mounts and cradles for tablet (for GPS) and phone (for music), and Smooth Spyder belt tensioner.
The info I find states if the base number drops below 3 then it's time to change the oil. I wonder how your lab determines the oxidation number, and what does it mean? Oxidation causes acid to build up in the oil and the base number is a measure of well the additives in the oil neutralize the acid. My oil reports don't show TAN nor oxidation which make me wonder how valuable that number is. How about posting the entire lab report here? I think several of us would like to see it.
Sample 1 is XPS and 2 is Amsoil.
Last edited by Peter Aawen; 04-21-2024 at 03:22 PM.
I ran my oil for 10,000 miles and just sent a sample in for analysis. I use Amsoil 10W40 and I have 60,000 miles on the spyder. Why did BRP pick 9,300? Previous analysis at 9,300 returned still usable. What would another 700 miles hurt? We'll see how it comes out.
Thanks for posting the analysis, it is difficult to read but the comments in the upper part is where they talk about the oxidation number and not the TBN (total base number) which usually indicates how much protection against acid formation the used oil still retains. It might be helpful to ask the lab how or if oxidation relates to TBN? Amsoil usually has a higher TBN to combat acid formation.
The second comment is about minor fuel dilution which is at 3.? percent and the viscosity being reduced a bit. The cst reading converts to a 30 SAE wt. so definitely in the 10-40 range.
Did you take this oil sample after a long ride or just after a short warmup? The reason I ask is for me its unusual to see fuel dilution in a gasoline oil because it would tend to evaporate once the oil is up to temperature. If the oil was hot you may want to resample at a shorter interval and see what the analysis shows? Maybe you have a leaky injector but that is just a SWAG not a reason for concern if the engine is running well?
Perhaps someone else can shed some light on this analysis?
Thanks for posting the analysis, it is difficult to read but the comments in the upper part is where they talk about the oxidation number and not the TBN (total base number) which usually indicates how much protection against acid formation the used oil still retains. It might be helpful to ask the lab how or if oxidation relates to TBN? Amsoil usually has a higher TBN to combat acid formation.
The second comment is about minor fuel dilution which is at 3.? percent and the viscosity being reduced a bit. The cst reading converts to a 30 SAE wt. so definitely in the 10-40 range.
Did you take this oil sample after a long ride or just after a short warmup? The reason I ask is for me its unusual to see fuel dilution in a gasoline oil because it would tend to evaporate once the oil is up to temperature. If the oil was hot you may want to resample at a shorter interval and see what the analysis shows? Maybe you have a leaky injector but that is just a SWAG not a reason for concern if the engine is running well?
Perhaps someone else can shed some light on this analysis?
The sample was taken after a 30 mile ride after a 15 minute off period while I jacked up the bike and removed the underbody splashpans. The lab uses 5 levels from 0-4 with 0 being normal and 4 being critical. Fuel dilution was 2.4% considered by them level 1. Iron was 173 or level 2. Oxidation was 37 level 4 critical. The previous sample the oxidation number was 10 normal. Iron was 173 level 2 last time 44 normal. Viscosity was 12.3 level 1 last time 8.7 critical. Tin was 1 considered normal last time was 3 level 2. There is a column just left of oxidation labeled Base No. D4739 with values in mg KOH/g. The value is 5.87 considered level 0. The previous sample was 4.00 considered level 0. You can read their comments on oxidation from my post #42. Thanks for your time.
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Originally Posted by IdahoMtnSpyder
Tom 
Baloo is my name. Spyders are my game. Well, it's a doo-bah-dee-doo, yes, it's a doo-bah-dee-doo, I mean a doo-bee, doo-bee, doo-bee, doo-bee, doo-bee-dee-doo. And, well, now. Ha ha! What have we here?
Like watching Nascar, waiting for a wreck. But not with Amsoil!!!!
