Traction Control System - How DOES It Function?

[FrogmanDave]

Last week I was riding home during a light rain. When I turned a corner I got on it a little bit to see how the traction control would react. It didn't do anything at all. The bike fishtailed a bit but there were no warning lights or 'nanny' intervention at all as far as I could tell. So, on the next corner I waited for the bike to straighten out and got on it. I completely roasted the back tire. I was surprised to say the least. I tried this a couple more times and the TCS did nothing as far as wheel spin. My question is, is this normal behavior on our Spyders? Mine is a 2022 RTL.

On a side note, I do have a Pedal Commander installed and am wondering if that software overrides the factory TCS somehow? I can tell that putting the Spyder in ECO mode doesn't seem to do anything anymore since I installed the PC.

Any input is appreciated.

[Bunson]

I have done the same or similar on a 2018 RTL. Some dirt on road at intersection. Jumped on it and spun rear wheel all the way across intersection. Went back to see a faint black stripe. Another time jumped on it coming out of a switch back and rear stepped out a couple of inches or so.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Last week I was riding home during a light rain. When I turned a corner I got on it a little bit to see how the traction control would react. It didn't do anything at all. The bike fishtailed a bit but there were no warning lights or 'nanny' intervention at all as far as I could tell. So, on the next corner I waited for the bike to straighten out and got on it. I completely roasted the back tire. I was surprised to say the least. I tried this a couple more times and the TCS did nothing as far as wheel spin. My question is, is this normal behavior on our Spyders? Mine is a 2022 RTL.

On a side note, I do have a Pedal Commander installed and am wondering if that software overrides the factory TCS somehow? I can tell that putting the Spyder in ECO mode doesn't seem to do anything anymore since I installed the PC.

Any input is appreciated.

Dave I have a 14 RT so yours is more ADVANCED .... when I'm in the twistie's & really cranking it I get the NANNY flash - but it's apparently not long enough or severe enough to cause an Intervention from the NANNY .... some Spyders have RE-DUCED Nanny control .... perhaps yours is one on them ..... Mike

[trikermutha]

The VSS on the vehicle has been calibrated to perform best with a tire of a specific size, material, and tread pattern. Replacing a tire with one not approved by BRP can cause the VSS to be ineffective. (Front Tire)

Traction Control System (TCS) The TCS optimizes rear wheel traction to help keep the vehicle on its intended course. It can reduce engine torque if necessary. It may also apply brake on rear caliper if necessary. The TCS will limit rear wheel spin and is throttle dependant. At WOT (throttle opening above 90%), TCS will allow rear wheel slip speed up to redline in first gear. At lower throttle opening, TCS will manage rear wheel slip to allow maximum acceleration and control.

[rustin921]

I had the same thing happen to me, I went around a corner, stepped on it and one of the front tires came off the ground. I had to back off the throttle to return the tire to the ground.

Then my other "nanny" mode kicked in and yelled at me for the next 5 blocks.

[CloverHillCrawler]

Before I started using eco mode to control slip on wet roads (by reduced throttle response) I have on several occasions going from first to second or second to third had the rpms just a little too high and when I switched gears the back tire would spin and slide out to the side usually just a gentile throttle reduction will get the back tire to bite back into the road.

[Pooch]

Last week I was riding home during a light rain. When I turned a corner I got on it a little bit to see how the traction control would react. It didn't do anything at all. The bike fishtailed a bit but there were no warning lights or 'nanny' intervention at all as far as I could tell. So, on the next corner I waited for the bike to straighten out and got on it. I completely roasted the back tire. I was surprised to say the least. I tried this a couple more times and the TCS did nothing as far as wheel spin. My question is, is this normal behavior on our Spyders? Mine is a 2022 RTL.

On a side note, I do have a Pedal Commander installed and am wondering if that software overrides the factory TCS somehow? I can tell that putting the Spyder in ECO mode doesn't seem to do anything anymore since I installed the PC.

Any input is appreciated.

I have fish-tailed a number of times with my 2021 RTL.. in ECO mode ... on dry, slick concrete from a stop and on worn smooth bumps on extreme switchbacks... never felt anything that seemed to be taking control from me.. just immediately got off the throttle and counter-steered.
I still have the original Kenda tires - I was thinking that might be the problem..

[Peter Aawen]

The VSS on the vehicle has been calibrated to perform best with a tire of a specific size, material, and tread pattern. Replacing a tire with one not approved by BRP can cause the VSS to be ineffective. (Front Tire)

Traction Control System (TCS) The TCS optimizes rear wheel traction to help keep the vehicle on its intended course. It can reduce engine torque if necessary. It may also apply brake on rear caliper if necessary. The TCS will limit rear wheel spin and is throttle dependant. At WOT (throttle opening above 90%), TCS will allow rear wheel slip speed up to redline in first gear. At lower throttle opening, TCS will manage rear wheel slip to allow maximum acceleration and control.

That bolded bit in your post above is simply Not True, trikermutha!! In fact, that blurb you put up is pretty much just a rehash of the marketing pile of bovi... err blurb put out by BRP that's basically even more of a pile of **** than the OE spec Kendas are!

Bosch developed & designed the Spyder's VSS/ABS etc suite with functionality and Safety in mind, and I've studied & spoken about it and that of other vehicles at length with the system Developers, some from back when they initially started developing these systems for vehicles, others who have been involved more recently, & some who still are involved; and ALL vehicle traction & stability control systems in use today on any vehicle, including the Spyder's VSS/ABS suite MUST be able to function REGARDLESS of all those tire specific 'tire' things you've mentioned above, simply because the VSS/ABS suites etc need to cater for the extremities of things like punctures, tread wear, different road surfaces, different weather conditions, different tire pressures, the differences in tread & ambient temps that occur & change on a daily and as used basis etc etc etc - these things are all variable across a wide range even for a given tire, but the VSS/ABS suite still has to function as designed/intended regardless!! So the parameters that the VSS/ABS suite relies upon are those immediately measurable things that result from the way your Spyder behaves given all those variables, things like wheel speed... ie not the wheel's traction, it's size, the material, tread pattern, or whatever at all, but instead the actual rotational speed of each tire as it happens & the comparison of those wheel speeds with that of the other wheels, the Yaw forces experienced by that sensor, the steering angles reported by that sensor, & all those similar measureable parameters that apply REGARDLESS of the things you mention that apply to each actual tire, it's traction, the ambient or road temperature, the road surface, and all that other stuff!! The VSS suite must still work REGARDLESS of your Spyder (or any other vehicle a similar system may be on ) getting a puncture, or losing the tread of a tire due to delamination, or one tire being on ice or one spinning in mud, or for any other reason! So those things you mentioned, like the tire make/brand & it's actual size, tread pattern, construction, ect ARE VERY CAREFULLY DESIGNED & SPECIFIED OUT of the controlling parameters (apart from allowing for some fairly wide ranging 'rolling diameter' parameters, ie, the difference between a massively over-inflated tire & an absolutely flat & delaminated tire carcass or even a bare rim - a size difference which could be quite a few inches of range difference ) or the VSS/ABS suite won't be able to do its job properly under some of the 'foreseeable &/or expected' conditions that it's REQUIRED BY LAW to work under in your country, my country, and many other countries too!! So the ACTUAL tire brand/make/construction/tread pattern et al is pretty much COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to the proper functioning of the VSS/ABS suite!

[Peter Aawen]

Last week I was riding home during a light rain. When I turned a corner I got on it a little bit to see how the traction control would react. It didn't do anything at all. The bike fishtailed a bit but there were no warning lights or 'nanny' intervention at all as far as I could tell. So, on the next corner I waited for the bike to straighten out and got on it. I completely roasted the back tire. I was surprised to say the least. I tried this a couple more times and the TCS did nothing as far as wheel spin. My question is, is this normal behavior on our Spyders? Mine is a 2022 RTL.

On a side note, I do have a Pedal Commander installed and am wondering if that software overrides the factory TCS somehow? I can tell that putting the Spyder in ECO mode doesn't seem to do anything anymore since I installed the PC.

Any input is appreciated.

As for your experiences Dave, that's perfectly normal, and I don't believe the Pedal Commander will have over-ridden or disabled anything, let alone the factory TCS!

Basically, the 'factory TCS', or my preference, the VSS/ABS suite, responds or steps in when any of or any combination of those measurable inputs exceed their allowable parameters, which means that there's some degree of steering angle allowed while the rear tire is spinning - less on the RT's with their higher CoG than the F3's, but still some; and there's some wheel spin allowed, cos some of that is going to occur whenever you try to start moving on some surfaces; and there's also some variance in wheel rotational speed between wheels & in relation to road speed allowed, cos the inside front wheel on a corner is going to turn slower than the outside front wheel on that corner, in order for you to get around it AND there's also a difference in rotational speed for the rear wheel that's following a slightly different path that has to be allowed for too, so all those potential wheel speed differences need to be allowed for anyway; and the Yaw forces similarly have some degree of allowed yaw, or the VSS would stop you turning/cornering at all, or driving around a slightly banked curve; there's also some degree of steering angle allowed as you turn with a certain level of wheel speed variation & wheel spin &/or yaw forces; and there's a bunch more things (like braking limits etc) that all have SOME degree of lattitude designed in by necessity in order to allow the bike (or car/truck/whatever) to function - you have to allow SOME of all these things just to let the vehicle work on the road at all, & Bosch/BRP have worked very hard to get the limits allowed 'right'! All of these limits apply in a way to keep us safe & upright on the road, and on a daily basis you can (& do) ride beyond the strict 'this is not allowed at all' limits in all those parameters, yet you remain within the bounds allowed by those designed limits each & every time you ride!! To add to the complexity, some of these limits need to reduce if other forces increase, some need to expand/extend as other limits retract; but despite the complexity all up, you get to ride a machine that's balancing all these forces & limits & sensor feedback loops thru the VSS/ABS in such a way as to give you a pretty safe & upright ride without the Nanny being needlessly restrictive at any given moment! So Bosch & BRP have done a pretty good job of setting those limits, allowing some scope to cater for that necessary to work on the road, yet not allowing so much that our Spyders become the 'loosely guided lawn dart' that they are if you try to ride with NO VSS/ABS suite at all! (Do you really need to ask me how I know THAT little fact for a 'fact'?!? )

So when it comes to the VSS/ABS suite on our Spyders, back when they were developing the suite that eventually became our Nanny, the designers/developers were initially fairly restrained, but tried to be 'a little' more generous than was strictly necessary so that they could leave some of the 'fun' in the ride.... then as time progressed and the feedback to BRP/Bosch has shown that the riders wanted a little (or a lottle ) more leeway in those things like hanging the tail & lighting up the rear tire, AND that owners/riders weren't spearing off the road into the scenery willy nilly because they couldn't control the 3-wheeled machine, some of those parameters have been relaxed even more over time, such that now, while the base & sport F3's have the most lattitude, a 2022 RT can spin up the rear tire a noticeable amount more than a 2010 RT at any time, with a bit more allowed if the steering angle is 'straight ahead' (less chance of losing control & spearing off into said scenery ) And you can actually ride with one front wheel in the air a bit longer too; the newer RT can also corner a bit harder; and a bunch of other things where time has shown that the initial set-up was juuust a touch needlessly restrictive, so as time has passed & circumstances allow, BRP & Bosch have allowed a little more leeway before the Nanny steps in, so the riders of newer models have benefited from the skills & experience of those riding the earlier models! And unlike the 'upgrade' provided by something like a 'Pedal Commander', those of us who've had a magic wand waved over the various computers that control these things by a suitably skilled & knowledgeable tuner may have both contributed to those benefits you later model Spyder owners enjoy and also may have gained a little from them too!

So what you exprienced Dave is perfectly acceptable - you were just exploring some of the (slightly relaxed to that of earlier/non 'upgraded' models) range of parameters provided by the VSS/ABS suite in a way that didn't exceed any of the limits - and I reckon you'd be surprised if you found out exactly HOW FAR you can go without triggering any of those limits & getting a 'real' Nanny intervention! If you just keep on (carefully ) exploring how far you can push into those limits by taking things a small step further each time you push, the Nanny can actually keep you (fairly) safe while she teaches you to become a better/more capable rider along the way!

Go On, Try It! You Know you Want to!

[trikermutha]

That bolded bit in your post above is simply Not True, trikermutha!! In fact, that blurb you put up is pretty much just a rehash of the marketing pile of bovi... err blurb put out by BRP that's basically even more of a pile of **** than the OE spec Kendas are!

Bosch developed & designed the Spyder's VSS/ABS etc suite with functionality and Safety in mind, and I've studied & spoken about it and that of other vehicles at length with the system Developers, some from back when they initially started developing these systems for vehicles, others who have been involved more recently, & some who still are involved; and ALL vehicle traction & stability control systems in use today on any vehicle, including the Spyder's VSS/ABS suite MUST be able to function REGARDLESS of all those tire specific 'tire' things you've mentioned above, simply because the VSS/ABS suites etc need to cater for the extremities of things like punctures, tread wear, different road surfaces, different weather conditions, different tire pressures, the differences in tread & ambient temps that occur & change on a daily and as used basis etc etc etc - these things are all variable across a wide range even for a given tire, but the VSS/ABS suite still has to function as designed/intended regardless!! So the parameters that the VSS/ABS suite relies upon are those immediately measurable things that result from the way your Spyder behaves given all those variables, things like wheel speed... ie not the wheel's traction, it's size, the material, tread pattern, or whatever at all, but instead the actual rotational speed of each tire as it happens & the comparison of those wheel speeds with that of the other wheels, the Yaw forces experienced by that sensor, the steering angles reported by that sensor, & all those similar measureable parameters that apply REGARDLESS of the things you mention that apply to each actual tire, it's traction, the ambient or road temperature, the road surface, and all that other stuff!! The VSS suite must still work REGARDLESS of your Spyder (or any other vehicle a similar system may be on ) getting a puncture, or losing the tread of a tire due to delamination, or one tire being on ice or one spinning in mud, or for any other reason! So those things you mentioned, like the tire make/brand & it's actual size, tread pattern, construction, ect ARE VERY CAREFULLY DESIGNED & SPECIFIED OUT of the controlling parameters (apart from allowing for some fairly wide ranging 'rolling diameter' parameters, ie, the difference between a massively over-inflated tire & an absolutely flat & delaminated tire carcass or even a bare rim - a size difference which could be quite a few inches of range difference ) or the VSS/ABS suite won't be able to do its job properly under some of the 'foreseeable &/or expected' conditions that it's REQUIRED BY LAW to work under in your country, my country, and many other countries too!! So the ACTUAL tire brand/make/construction/tread pattern et al is pretty much COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to the proper functioning of the VSS/ABS suite!

I fiqured someone would take that for what it was worth. Now I dont care what tire you put on , but it can be possible tire sizing with throw off the programmed parameters to some degree.

I refuse to get into a tire debate. The information posted was from the Manual and was passed along .

Take it for whats it worth.

[FrogmanDave]

The TCS will limit rear wheel spin and is throttle dependent. At WOT (throttle opening above 90%), TCS will allow rear wheel slip speed up to redline in first gear. At lower throttle opening, TCS will manage rear wheel slip to allow maximum acceleration and control.

@trikermutha, I admit to having missed this bit in the owners manual. It explains exactly what I experienced.

@Peter Aawen, I won't quote your entire post as it is long but everything you posted really puts my mind at ease concerning whether my VSS/ABS suite is performing normally. I had read so much on this forum as to how the 'nanny' restricts performance that I was surprised it did not 'kick in' when I expected it would. @BLUEKNIGHT references this in his post. I also suspect you are correct about the Pedal Commander. I hope this information is helpful to other members in the future as it surely was to me.

Thank you to all that replied.

[trikermutha]

I figured that would help since it sounded like it was related to what you posted.

What I posted came from the Service manual.

There are many sensors involved with the Spyder.

Good Luck !

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

The VSS on the vehicle has been calibrated to perform best with a tire of a specific size, material, and tread pattern. Replacing a tire with one not approved by BRP can cause the VSS to be ineffective. (Front Tire)

Traction Control System (TCS) The TCS optimizes rear wheel traction to help keep the vehicle on its intended course. It can reduce engine torque if necessary. It may also apply brake on rear caliper if necessary. The TCS will limit rear wheel spin and is throttle dependant. At WOT (throttle opening above 90%), TCS will allow rear wheel slip speed up to redline in first gear. At lower throttle opening, TCS will manage rear wheel slip to allow maximum acceleration and control.

This is a MYTH .... Kenda / BRP has changed the Spyder's tires ( size, tread , and composition ) a few times. I have NEVER heard of BRP telling anyone they need to bring in their Spyder to be re-calibrated., because of the different tires ..... Mike I posted this before reading Peter's explanation .... to which I wholly agree

[BajaRon]

The VSS on the vehicle has been calibrated to perform best with a tire of a specific size, material, and tread pattern. Replacing a tire with one not approved by BRP can cause the VSS to be ineffective. (Front Tire)

True, if you go with a tire which is a long way from OEM specs. Just like with any modern vehicle with a traction control system. Fenders on the Spyder don't give you much room to play with. You will have to modify the fenders to mount a tire large enough to give you VSS issues. And who is going smaller? No one I know.

So, I am skeptical of this to the point that I am sure it is essentially not true. 'Can Cause' is a very wide yardstick. And BRP tries very hard to get you to purchase the junk Kenda's they recommend.

As tires wear, their diameter and traction properties change a fair amount. Not to mention the surface variables (wet, dry, sand, etc.) The VSS system is designed to be flexible and compensate for these variations. I can guarantee you the computer (VSS) has no idea what your tread pattern is. There is a range of tire dimension that is accepted within the industry for each tire size. They are not all the same. If the tire dimensions exceed the VSS systems ability to compensate (built into the program) enough to produce the effect that you are asserting. The computer will go into limp mode. Within reason, tire dimension, tread pattern & traction properties are not an issue.

The VSS does not kick in until the vehicle exceeds 35 mph. So, you can drift, spin the rear tire, etc., without issue within this parameter. It may be this is what the OP is experiencing and has nothing to do with tire size or a faulty VSS.

[elixermixer]

FrogmanDave, Find someplace “safe”, aim it straight, just a slight pressure on brake and give it throttle… leave a darkie as long as you want. Practice for your next red light ��

But seriously it’s a great way to get used to how it “feels”....

The system uses wheel speed sensors at all 3 wheels combined with yaw and other combinations of dark arts and wizardry

[FrogmanDave]

FrogmanDave, Find someplace “safe”, aim it straight, just a slight pressure on brake and give it throttle… leave a darkie as long as you want. Practice for your next red light ��

But seriously it’s a great way to get used to how it “feels”....

The system uses wheel speed sensors at all 3 wheels combined with yaw and other combinations of dark arts and wizardry

Curious as to what "a slight pressure on brake" does in this scenario?

[elixermixer]

Curious as to what "a slight pressure on brake" does in this scenario?

Give it a try both ways and see

Generally, braking will allow the front wheels to grip more so the rear wheel breaks grip easier while not applying so much force to make it difficult to overcome the rear brake.
I also think it plays games with the “nanny”

[trikermutha]

Thats if you want to smoke the tire and leave black marks on the pavement. Then we can all complain about tire wear.

[elixermixer]

Thats if you want to smoke the tire and leave black marks on the pavement. Then we can all complain about tire wear.

Exactly… getting used to how traction control works… and how long a line you can leave

[Peter Aawen]

Give it a try both ways and see

Generally, braking will allow the front wheels to grip more so the rear wheel breaks grip easier while not applying so much force to make it difficult to overcome the rear brake.
I also think it plays games with the “nanny”

Apply 'light brake pressure' for too long while you hold the throttle open can & will bring on Limp Home Mode & put up a 'Brake Failure' Warning . Generally, removing the offending foot from the brake pedal & gently riding on will remove the Warning & over-ride the Limp Home Mode, but not always!!

So don't try riding the brakes for too long, cos it will break your Spyder, hopefully only temporarily tho!

[FrogmanDave]

Give it a try both ways and see

Generally, braking will allow the front wheels to grip more so the rear wheel breaks grip easier while not applying so much force to make it difficult to overcome the rear brake.
I also think it plays games with the “nanny”

Tried it both ways tonight in a church parking lot. Full throttle with no brake and the Spyder just rolls on. I have the Pedal Commander so it is zippy but honestly kind of a turd because the clutch doesn't lock up immediately. With the brake you can get the tire to break loose and indeed it will leave a faint black line. Very faint in fact. No way to really roast it up. Your suggestion is called power braking to my old way of thinking. And I would say it takes just a bit more than 'light pressure' to hold it back hard enough to really spin it up. This tire makes a horrible squealing sound. Reminded me of the old bias ply tires of my youth. I hadn't heard such a sound for many years. Anyway, I do see that the Spyder will spin the tire under the right conditions on dry pavement. I had fun doing it. Thanks for the suggestion elixermixer.