Steering almost got me killed!

[Gimpy Girl]

Sure am glad your OK! That had to be a very frighting issue to have had to encounter. Hope that you can get your Spyder fixed quickly and will be able to save some of your vacation.

[Firefly]

Why is it when someone has an opinion that differs from yours, you freak out?

Also he DID have problems - lots of them - his problems took him out for quite a few weeks of his ryding season. And he's had constant little things going on ever since he got the thing.


I am beyond p*ssed right now. I do like my Spyder but I don't like seeing all these people w/ problems. Sure some don't have anything going on but makes me wonder what stick I'm gonna draw.

And this forum is a place for ALL opinions - the good, the bad and the ugly.

As for Ralph Nader, nah, never mind, I'll get banned. Nuff said.

First off---- I didn't freak out --- but people seem to be on some kind of BRP-bashing frenzy lately - and I for one am getting sick of it.

Frankly-- unless YOU have problems - then YOU have nothing to complain about. You cannot file a report with the NHTSA unless you personally are having the problems.

I speak as someone who DID have the steering problem - and one of those that filed proper reports to get the steering fixed. Did I about the steering out here--- YUP --- because it happened to ME--- but then I took the steps to get it fixed.

Am I going to complain about the shaft splines?? No -- because it hasn't happened to ME.

Some seem to just be looking for problems -- and letting others having issues project onto them. If you're having problems--- get them fixed, file reports -- or sell your Spyders.

From the way it sounds - you should own a HD - because everyone knows they never break down----

Most people are VERY happy with their Spyders. Sorry to hear you're not. Sounds like selling time for you and roaddog if you're really that unhappy.

[Firefly]

+1 Smylinatcha

Firefly could show more concern,these issues are big maybe even life threatening and certainly not the norm in motorcycle riding.

I'll give you they are probably rare but to the owner they are Big issues that may have a Big expense.

There's a big difference between showing concern and just bashing and complaining like many are doing.

Is the steering a big issue - yes-- and as one of the original owners that had such problems - and filed the proper reports -- I fully understand the concern. But rather than just bash BRP like many are doing - why not offer some help.

Comments like "I wish I hadn't bought this" or "the Spyder is a maintenance nightmare" are not helping anything.

There isn't a Spyder on the road that isn't under warranty - so while these few issues might be 'big' - the expense isn't --- as these problems are 100% covered under warranty.

[QuadManiac]

It is my understanding that, during the update process, a re-zero of the steering postion sensor and of the steering torque sensor is required. I would posit that this may not be being done properly in some cases, by some techs, so the computer thinks that either the steering is not centered, or that a torque is being applied to the steering when it is not.

One of the issues mentioned recently in this forum was resolved when the dealer re-zeroed (calibrated) one or both of these software variables.

This is just supposition, but might make some sense of these symptoms.

And, not to start a flaming debate, but I'd rather Corvairs were still on the road and Ralph Nader were retired.

[Dragonrider]

Maintence costs for the Spyder are a fraction of those required for the big Beemers (LT/GT) - a standard service ran $800 to $1200, every 6K miles.

Indeed, the Beemers have problems too - final drives, slave cylinders, electric center stands, and on. However, other than the leaky gas quick releases, nothing approached fatal...

I have yet to cross 1K miles on my Spyder, and given the problems I have had, it won't leave the low speed errand service it sees now. I have a bullet proof Valkryie for all the rest.

It's too bad - I looks cool, and is a hoot to ride, but my confidence in it's quality ranks with the Yugo.

I do not intend to sell it, hopefully BRP will step up and really fix them - somewhere during my 5 years of warranty. But those considering stepping up to the RT at 2X the price, should really think hard before parting with the cash.

[jwfranklin]

.

And, not to start a flaming debate, but I'd rather Corvairs were still on the road and Ralph Nader were retired.

[tjfischer]

It is my understanding that, during the update process, a re-zero of the steering postion sensor and of the steering torque sensor is required. I would posit that this may not be being done properly in some cases, by some techs, so the computer thinks that either the steering is not centered, or that a torque is being applied to the steering when it is not.

One of the issues mentioned recently in this forum was resolved when the dealer re-zeroed (calibrated) one or both of these software variables.

This is just supposition, but might make some sense of these symptoms.

And, not to start a flaming debate, but I'd rather Corvairs were still on the road and Ralph Nader were retired.

-

There are certain steps the tech must do before applying the DPS update.

As I understand it. The tech should a least use a messuring tape, to ensure the the front of the tires and the back of the tires are are an equeal distance from the center of the bike. This essentially will put them in a "ZERO" position, once this is done then the UPdate can be applied.

Lets pretend your wheels are turned 3 degrees to the right when the update is applied. The computer will think that 3 degrees to the right is centered and straight. I think this would cause your left turns to be just slightly more difficult than your right ones.

I may be way off base on that scenario, but it makes sense to me.

[QuadManiac]

One of my areas of technical expertise is in control systems... Following is a simple Control Systems 101 discourse so as to explain what I think may be happening here.

Electric assist power steering is a classic example of a feeback control system, typically consisting of a sensor or sensors (in this case a steering angle and steering torque sensor) and (again in this case) a computer that reads sensor information and generates a drive signal for a motor which will try to drive the sytem (in this case the steering shaft), causing the sensor values to return to zero - as an example: You turn the steering, generating a torque, the computer reads the torque value and drives the motor to try to zero out that torque.

Most classic feedback control (FBC) systems use a feedback algorithm called PID (for Proportional, Integral, Derivative) to minimize the error between sensor measurment and the desired outcome. In the case of I (integral), the error signal is effectively added to itstelf over time until the control signal becomes so large that the motor will force the error to zero. In many computer controlled FBC systems, there is either a time limit or an upper error numerical limit to this error sum... in some cases if it is exceeded, a malfunction is assumed and the number is reset to zero or to some lesser value - THIS is where I think some of these 'jerk' and 'click' motions may be occurring.

With an offset error in the steering sensors (perhaps because they were not zeroed correctly), it is entirely possible that the error sum is growing quickly, under some circumstances, to a point where it is flagged by the computer as a mistake and then zeroed... likely causing, first, the push to one side as the error sum grows, and then, as the rider tries to counter it, a quick zeroing, causing the dynamics of the power steering to shift almost instantly from fighting the rider to trying to assist him/her.

Hope I didn't bore too many. This was a rather rudimentary explanation that does not take all possible cases into consideration, and is likely fraught with minor errors... however, if I were managing these software engineers (which IS one of the things I do for a living), this is where I'd have them looking first.

Regardless of whether my hypothesis of cause is or is not on point, it is obvious to me that the feedback control system driving the power steering motor is, indeed, generating some very spurious control signals.

[sleepman]

First off---- I didn't freak out --- but people seem to be on some kind of BRP-bashing frenzy lately - and I for one am getting sick of it.

Frankly-- unless YOU have problems - then YOU have nothing to complain about. You cannot file a report with the NHTSA unless you personally are having the problems.

I speak as someone who DID have the steering problem - and one of those that filed proper reports to get the steering fixed. Did I about the steering out here--- YUP --- because it happened to ME--- but then I took the steps to get it fixed.

Am I going to complain about the shaft splines?? No -- because it hasn't happened to ME.

Some seem to just be looking for problems -- and letting others having issues project onto them. If you're having problems--- get them fixed, file reports -- or sell your Spyders.

From the way it sounds - you should own a HD - because everyone knows they never break down----

Most people are VERY happy with their Spyders. Sorry to hear you're not. Sounds like selling time for you and roaddog if you're really that unhappy.

I normally stay out of the "Spyder problems" threads, but I just can't help myself on this one.

My Spyder was a maintenance nightmare, I counted among my problems the relay issues, bad exhaust gaskets, bad battery, steering problems, and bad head gaskets.

The two reasons I ditched my Spyder were the amount of time it spent in the shop for the various issues and the fact that at the time BRP would not admit there was steering issue. An issue which it appears still isn't 100% solved.

As for people voicing their concerns, it's allowed. Anyone who has a Spyder may experience anyone of these problems and so why not voice an opinion over it.

As for HD, well every HD I've ever owned spent less time in the shop combined then my Spyder did. The Spyder takes top place, in the list of many bikes I've owned, as being the most unreliable.

[pitmon]

Don't get me wrong... I luv my spyder, but what happened yesterday could have ended up really bad, not only for me but for the poor soul that I could have hit... not to mention my poor husband who would have watched it all. However, now that I have calmed down and put some thought into it I realize that I actually felt this starting Tuesday while I was on my way to the dealer for the second update, however it was very windy when I went that day and since it was just a brief glitch I just thought it was wind blowing me around... now I realize it was this problem just starting. This was before my second update.

I got the second update done that day and headed home which is about 60 miles and the bike ran fine, but I was on the interstate at 70 mph with the wind blowing and really didn't notice anymore steering glitches. I was just happy it wasn't backfiring and sputtering anymore.

I did feel this before I got to atlanta, but again I thought it was the conditions we were riding in. The bike would sort of drift to the right or left on its own, however it would correct for me. I have a tall shield and the wind was blowing bad so i kinda thought the wind was getting behind the shield and pushing me. But it was happening at highway speeds of 70 and 75 mph. When I merged off of I-75 onto 575 it went haywire on me, I almost got hit twice. I had no control it was just all over the road. I am sure I overcorrected because I was trying to keep from getting hit. There was a lot of loud clicking noises and the wheels were jerking left and right and taking the bike all over the road. Scared me good. This would have been about 400 miles after the second update.

I pulled off as soon as I could and shut her down hoping to reset whatever had happened. I sat there for 15 to 20 minutes and started her up and tried it again. This time much slower than 75 mph. I noticed right away that it was still happening, so we just went slow till we got to a place where we could safely pull off and call a dealer. The tech at cummings dealership told me that in all probability it was the steering box and that would have to come from brp. I checked the fuses and nothing seems wrong there. I can barely steer the bike without the power steering so I am afraid to get into traffic with it.

We rented a room and my husband left this morning to go home and get our truck and trailer. I pray for him a safe return, it's cold out and he is on his bike going home. It's 360 miles home and then back with the truck and trailer.

I pray no one gets hurt over this problem. I believe everything happens for a reason, it's good that my problem happened here and not going down Deals Gap, that would have been worse, and that was where we were headed. God has a way of looking out for us crazy people... that's why I have survived for so long LOL. This problem will be fixed and life will go on. I am just very happy no one got hurt... this time.

[NancysToy]

One of my areas of technical expertise is in control systems... Following is a simple Control Systems 101 discourse so as to explain what I think may be happening here.

Electric assist power steering is a classic example of a feeback control system, typically consisting of a sensor or sensors (in this case a steering angle and steering torque sensor) and (again in this case) a computer that reads sensor information and generates a drive signal for a motor which will try to drive the sytem (in this case the steering shaft), causing the sensor values to return to zero - as an example: You turn the steering, generating a torque, the computer reads the torque value and drives the motor to try to zero out that torque.

Most classic feedback control (FBC) systems use a feedback algorithm called PID (for Proportional, Integral, Derivative) to minimize the error between sensor measurment and the desired outcome. In the case of I (integral), the error signal is effectively added to itstelf over time until the control signal becomes so large that the motor will force the error to zero. In many computer controlled FBC systems, there is either a time limit or an upper error numerical limit to this error sum... in some cases if it is exceeded, a malfunction is assumed and the number is reset to zero or to some lesser value - THIS is where I think some of these 'jerk' and 'click' motions may be occurring.

With an offset error in the steering sensors (perhaps because they were not zeroed correctly), it is entirely possible that the error sum is growing quickly, under some circumstances, to a point where it is flagged by the computer as a mistake and then zeroed... likely causing, first, the push to one side as the error sum grows, and then, as the rider tries to counter it, a quick zeroing, causing the dynamics of the power steering to shift almost instantly from fighting the rider to trying to assist him/her.

Hope I didn't bore too many. This was a rather rudimentary explanation that does not take all possible cases into consideration, and is likely fraught with minor errors... however, if I were managing these software engineers (which IS one of the things I do for a living), this is where I'd have them looking first.

Regardless of whether my hypothesis of cause is or is not on point, it is obvious to me that the feedback control system driving the power steering motor is, indeed, generating some very spurious control signals.

I have had some experience with programming and tuning PID controls myself, and your explanation makes very good sense. It especially makes sense when you remember that BRP's update was, in part, to remove the "dead zone" at steering center, so the sterring would be more immediately responsive. For now I will skip the update, until I have no other choice. I still attribute my previous incident to a combination of a sharp, off camber turn, transitioning from a down hill road to an uphill one. I think the VSS read the yaw sensor and tried to "save" me. Under some conditions these electronic devices can be too smart for their own good. Sometimes even too smart for our technicians. At those times operator experience and skill must take over. I'm very glad Pitmon had that experience and skill in this situation.

[Smylinacha]

Those steering problems I had have not come back - I don't even know if they were fixed. Sure had both updates but so did others so I don't know if they are just lying dormant or if they actually got fixed.

I don't think you like negativity so maybe there should be a folder added just for you called Mr. FireFly's Neighborhood - we can have the Mr. Roger's theme song music playing in the background for ya. Won't have to have a single dose of reality in there!

First off---- I didn't freak out --- but people seem to be on some kind of BRP-bashing frenzy lately - and I for one am getting sick of it.

Frankly-- unless YOU have problems - then YOU have nothing to complain about. You cannot file a report with the NHTSA unless you personally are having the problems.

I speak as someone who DID have the steering problem - and one of those that filed proper reports to get the steering fixed. Did I about the steering out here--- YUP --- because it happened to ME--- but then I took the steps to get it fixed.

Am I going to complain about the shaft splines?? No -- because it hasn't happened to ME.

Some seem to just be looking for problems -- and letting others having issues project onto them. If you're having problems--- get them fixed, file reports -- or sell your Spyders.

From the way it sounds - you should own a HD - because everyone knows they never break down----

Most people are VERY happy with their Spyders. Sorry to hear you're not. Sounds like selling time for you and roaddog if you're really that unhappy.

[Roaddog2]

Unless you are personally having these specific problems - I don't see why you have such an opinion that the Spyder is suddenly a 'maintenance nightmare'. Most riders are not having any such problems. Have you?

Seems the handful of people recently having problems is bringing others out of the woodwork to bash BRP. You can go to any bike forum online and fine similar issues from a handful of owners - why should the Spyder be immune to this?

If you are personally having such problems - I fully understand why you would be upset - and you might need to make a decision to move on to another bike that is without any problems.

If you are not personally having problems with your Spyder - why complain?

BTW --- it's Ralph Nader --- and much like him getting rid of cars like the Corvair - if he had the power he would probably make all motorcycles illegal for highway use.

End of rant--- I think everyone needs a good RIDE !

I have been personally having these problems 15 months of ownership 19k miles over 50 days of shop time about 8 serious warranty claims if I didn't pay cash for it I would have stopped making payments a long time ago and guess what my splines appear to have some slack now but nobody wants to look at it to it happens and though I have the ability to pull it why should I if its under warranty and believe me will move on after I get some more use out of it resale value around here is like 7k and to make matters worse I put about 3k in mods thinking I would be in my garage for a while yes I have a lot of fun with this thing but my opinion is and will not change it is a maintenance nightmare.I just don't create post so thats why you don't see my problems

[tatt2r]

Total bummer. Sure sounds like the DPS is bad or the software update caused a glitch.

Have you checked your relays and fuses? You can remove the DPS fuse (can't recall which one it is off hand) and therefore disable the power steering. You should then be able to ride it without worrying about the power steering causing any conflicts--- but the steering will be tight.

I wouldn't try to ride in the Smokies without the power steering - but you should be able to do highway riding to get home. The power steering is basically shut off at highway speeds anyway.

Other than removing that fuse and riding it---- I would NOT attempt to ride it.

my power steering never worked from day one ... and i drove 18000 miles that way ...its not that bad ... dropping it of in the morning for gps to be replaced and almost want to leave it ass is but im getting screwy codes sometimes while shifting...but if u pull fuse and shut down power streering i drive it that way i rode to lamonts from new hampshire 960 mile one way and it was fine without it ...

[MizMuffet]

Sure glad you're ok.
Riding it with the power steering disconnected isn't bad at all. In fact, when I bought mine, the DPS was out and the new part was on order, so I drove it for the 1st 4 weeks with no power steering. You'll notice the difference in slow speeds, parking, etc. that it takes muscle to turn, but at higher speeds, it's not much different.

[tatt2r]

Sure glad you're ok.
Riding it with the power steering disconnected isn't bad at all. In fact, when I bought mine, the DPS was out and the new part was on order, so I drove it for the 1st 4 weeks with no power steering. You'll notice the difference in slow speeds, parking, etc. that it takes muscle to turn, but at higher speeds, it's not much different.

[Extracool]

We had the exact same thing happen with our power steering, had the update, no help, had the powersteering replaced, no help, had the S.A.S. the sensor under the powersteering replaced at the suggestion of a BRP technician, that cured it, no more problems.

[baldev]

We had the exact same thing happen with our power steering, had the update, no help, had the powersteering replaced, no help, had the S.A.S. the sensor under the powersteering replaced at the suggestion of a BRP technician, that cured it, no more problems.

Get a superb attorney and sue the hell out of BRP.

[Putt-Putt]

Well this certainly is a serious problem. And I believe people should certainly be allowed to state thier concerns without some 0ne jumping on them. As in previous posts. You'll never see a post from some one who its been fatal for; just a thought. Mine is in the shop right now for the second DPS upgrade. Wich I hope will cure the first upgrade. But this is deffinately more concerning than Backfiring--Surging--and Heating problems.

[smokster]

There's a big difference between showing concern and just bashing and complaining like many are doing.

Is the steering a big issue - yes-- and as one of the original owners that had such problems - and filed the proper reports -- I fully understand the concern. But rather than just bash BRP like many are doing - why not offer some help.

Comments like "I wish I hadn't bought this" or "the Spyder is a maintenance nightmare" are not helping anything.

There isn't a Spyder on the road that isn't under warranty - so while these few issues might be 'big' - the expense isn't --- as these problems are 100% covered under warranty.

That would be an opinion that should be able to have been spoken.
At what point was that taken away?

Hearing her problems after the 2nd update, concerns me as well. And I have said those very words when I heard this, again, an opinion !

Sure it is under warranty, but how much time and effort has been wasted. Not to mention the confidence to go on a long leisurly ride without the fear of something happening on a nice twisty mountain road.

I just wish BRP would have figured out the problem with the first generation Spyders before they went into the RT series.

I just wonder if her update went through completely. I wish her the best on finding a solution and hope she can find the condidence that we all once had in our machine before is was "messed" with with these crazy updates.
That would be my opinion.

[Way2Fast]

Many here are trying to pinpoint what is causing the potentially fatal steering abnormalties experienced by some Spyder owners. This is 100% BRP's responsibility and not that of fustrated owners trying to figure it out by themselves. BRP manufactures the product and is expected to make it available for use on public roads ONLY after it is thoroughly tested and deemed safe. Apparently this is not the case. Even after "fix" on top of "fix" the vehicle is still not always roadworthy. If the problem is with incorrectly trained dealer tecs who do not know how to perform the updates, the problem still legally rests in the lap of BRP, the manufacturer. Dealerships should not be franchised unless they employ factory trained technicians who are qualified to correctly make repairs mandated under safety recalls. I will be giving BRP a choice....either refund my full purchase price now for a vehicle that I am "afraid" to continue using, or be prepared to face a lawsuit. I don't intend to be the guinea pig who puts his life on the line after every consecutive "update" waiting to see if it will fix the problem or cause worse ones !!!!

[Firefly]

I'm all for sharing various opinions - and contrary to what at least 3 out here think--- I'm not trying to moderate anything. You have strong opinions that are currently very negative - and I'm of the opinion that it's not constructive at all. So be it.

If you have problems - by all means - post about them - but stating generic things like 'the Spyder is a maintenance nightmare' without really telling your reasons behind that opinion doesn't really help anyone.

Sorry if SMY, RD and HDX (does he own a Spyder?) have actually had such problems--- but without you actually stating what you have personally had happen - those problems and what was or was not done - you just come across as chronic complainers.

ALL opinions should be shared --- good and bad --- but why not give some credence to your statements with some history of why you feel the way you do?

Just seems the 3 of you are really anti-BRP right now - and maybe with good cause - but I don't see you doing much to help things with such negative generalized statements.

How many people have you scared away from getting a Spyder this week?

Funny how Brian and Deb are the two actually being affected right now with two Spyders in the shop - but you don't hear them complaining as loud as some out here that are still on the road.

Even with the problems I've had (which have all been fixed) - I love the Spyder and will recommend it to people. Anything I had issues with was covered under the warranty. My longest shop visit was 7 days.

[Way2Fast]

[QUOTE=Firefly;151724)
Just seems the 3 of you are really anti-BRP right now - and maybe with good cause - but I don't see you doing much to help things with such negative generalized statements.
How many people have you scared away from getting a Spyder this week?
Even with the problems I've had (which have all been fixed) - I love the Spyder and will recommend it to people. Anything I had issues with was covered under the warranty. My longest shop visit was 7 days.[/QUOTE]

__________________________________________________ ___________

Firefly;
You may as well lengthen your personal list of anti-BRP people to 4....by including myself.
I think that the more people are made aware of the severity of the problems plaguing many Spyder owners the better. Maybe if enough people are "scared away" from purchasing this POS, BRP will find it financially wise to provide more than a half-ass fix to the problems. I'd like to see how the WARRANTY would cover issues such as the grief, pain and suffering resulting from a serious injury or death caused by malfunctions, computer or otherwise, while operating a Spyder !!!!

[Putt-Putt]

What's his name Marck Lacroix or how ever it is spelled. From BRP said that the spyder was in development for 10 yrs. and several generation bikes later is what they released for production to the public. My Question is with all that time none of the problems that we are having showed up hard to believe! Some of them minor but very irritating brake squeal just as an example.

[Tom in NM]

Don't get me wrong... I luv my spyder, but what happened yesterday could have ended up really bad, not only for me but for the poor soul that I could have hit... not to mention my poor husband who would have watched it all. However, now that I have calmed down and put some thought into it I realize that I actually felt this starting Tuesday while I was on my way to the dealer for the second update, however it was very windy when I went that day and since it was just a brief glitch I just thought it was wind blowing me around... now I realize it was this problem just starting. This was before my second update.
..............
God has a way of looking out for us crazy people... that's why I have survived for so long LOL. This problem will be fixed and life will go on. I am just very happy no one got hurt... this time.

Pitmon, You did good! in a truly scary situation. My hat is off to you not only for your skill, but your attitude as well.

I had a very odd thing happen with my steering today as well.
............
In layman's terms, the bike's computer was reading that the steering was running off-center and was trying to correct it by pulling it to the left. The graphic was like looking at a clock. The hour hand should have been reading 12 o'clock, but it was displaying 1 o'clock.
That was reset to the 12 o'clock position, and my Spyder seems to be rolling along OK.

And thank you PhantomLady for sharing your experience and results - clear, concise and helpful ( to my understanding, at least )

I was told by a former BRP test rider that the power steering is an active part of the Stability Control System. It is designed to prevent the rider from turning the bars too sharply at higher speeds. This is to prevent the rider from possibly loosing control and flipping the vehicle from turning too much. . . . . . . .
During normal riding the operator makes many subconscience "corrections" with the bars to keep the vehicle going straight. BRP thinks that the steering is "locking" and there by hindering these small "corrections" causing the driver to force the handle bars too far in either direction and "oversteering" , resulting in a loss of control situation.

Way2Fast, I think the information you are relaying is correct, the steering is probably an integral part of the VSS. I also agree that the problems should be reported, though I would do it in this order: Dealer, BRP, NHTSA. The owner should use their own judgement as to the time interval between those 3 parties, but it should be reported, even if it is fixed after the first call.

One of my areas of technical expertise is in control systems... Following is a simple Control Systems 101 discourse so as to explain what I think may be happening here.
.................
Regardless of whether my hypothesis of cause is or is not on point, it is obvious to me that the feedback control system driving the power steering motor is, indeed, generating some very spurious control signals.

QM, an excellent hypothesis. And given some of the comments and experiences mentioned above and in other threads, besides "programming" issues, failing power steering units and/or failing sensors make this a highly variable situation as far as solutions go.

I have had some experience with programming and tuning PID controls myself, and your explanation makes very good sense.
. . . . . . .
At those times operator experience and skill must take over. I'm very glad Pitmon had that experience and skill in this situation.

Scotty, I could not agree more.

Now, here is what I have to add. I did a stupid thing! From what I have read, I was am not alone.

After having the first update done (with my scheduled maintenance) I rode home and rode for the next few weeks as I alway had. As it became clear there were various results from the update ( no change, same but different, negative changes and positive changes ) I realized how stupid I had been since getting the update. I should have rode the Spyder like I did when I first bought it and was breaking it ( and me ) in. In effect, I had a "new" Spyder --- how it ran, how it handled, the parameters for conditions that would effect it were changed.
I have worked on integrating complex systems, including the type of automation that Quadmaniac and Scotty mentioned - like those in the Spyder. I should have known better and exercised better judgement. That was stupid on my part. Small changes can have major implications - some of them totally unintended. Even adding luggage ( additional weight ) or handlebar anti-vibration inserts, can and will change how the Spyder handles and performs - sometimes radically in specific conditions.
I do think BRP and the dealers performing the updates should have advised people to pay attention and to carefully test handling and performance in their everyday riding routines, in effect saying, "You should treat your Spyder like you did when you first started riding - it may react differently from what you have experienced in the past. You may have to adjust or relearn some skills." These updates are being done to improve the quality of the Spyder's safety and in some cases, performance. But things can go wrong - both with the update AND with the mechanical aspects of the Spyder, which could be interdependent or coincidental.

You may feel this makes things "too uncertain" or "unreliable" and that it is not "right" or is just "too complex" and "inconvenient". Please, make your own call and do what you think is right for you. For me, I like what Pitmon and Scotty said; "This problem will be fixed and life will go on." and "At those times operator experience and skill must take over." So, I am going to watch it, practice, and repeat my advice from above;

"You should treat your Spyder like you did when you first started riding - it may react differently from what you have experienced in the past. You may have to adjust or relearn some skills."

Tom
(still smiling)